Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Kweassa on May 30, 2004, 02:20:13 AM
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HT et all HTC staff, for many betas since the new lighting effects came into place people have been complaining everything is to dark. Thus, the ambient lighting was enhanced - but still, people complain.
The colors of the sky, previous to the recent change, was IMO much more softer and realistic, and yet, people complained(rightfully so) that it made things to hazy and fuzzy and dark - thus, the sky in AH2, despite it's amazing ability to fine-tune the exact colors, has reverted to the old single-tone blue sky of AH1, which is IMO "cartoonish".
As such events have surpassed, it got me thinking that perhaps there is some other way to significantly increase the overall quality of AH terrain-landscape, without suggesting any engancement in the graphic engine itself.
Obviously, many people think that the main contendor of AH as a WW2-era aircombat sim, is Forgotten Battles, from 1C:Maddox, distributed by UBI, which looks like this:
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/232_1085899978_fbland.jpg)
Ofcourse, this game uses two CDs and hundreds of megabytes to its disposal to depict such things. AH cannot match that toe-to-toe. However, the one absolute advantage AH terrain holds over FB, is that it is based on tiles and texture squares, which can be arranged to let the players hold the freedom of editing it to one's will. While terrain editing in FB is severely limited, AH is totally free. One can make the surface of the moon, or even something like Mars, with orange skies, if he wants to do so.
However, that comes with the cost of quality - but what I have been thinking is, does the quality really have to suffer so much? Can there be not some other way to bring up the detail/immersion level of AH terrains without losing any of the traits the AH terrain system holds?
Well, that kind of led me to some experimentation and creation of mock-ups, such as this:
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/232_1085900008_landtextures.jpg)
The picture above, is the default terrain of AH2. Obviously, no matter how the lighting effects are done it will still look too dark, because, the "darkness" comes from the land tiles itself, having nothing to do with the lighting effects!
Literally, the land IS too dark - it was made that way!
The bottom half of the picture is the mock-up I've created. None other than purely the terrain, has been retouched. The sky and the plane holds its original colors. No external lighting effects or such has been added.
One may be able to notice that with a correction in brightness and contrast of the land tiles, the AH2 terrain looks totally different!
This, is my suggestion:
Please enhance the textures used in the land/sea tiles(my suggested values, as seen in the pic, is a correction of Brightness +40, Contrast +53)...!!
You don't even have to create a new texture - just engance the brightness and contrast accordingly, and it will literally make AH2 terrain something totally different!
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Here is another mock-up which is also done in the same fashion:
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/232_1085900043_landtextures2.jpg)
As said, the sky and the plane is true to its colors. Only the textures of the land, sea, and trees have been touched. Notice how significantly better it looks with just a minor color correction.
Another feature which might greatly enhance immersion, is the mock-up beach I've added to the coastline.
Again, my point is that the little stuff, though we may not realize it, is actually profoundly responsible for how we gamers perceive the virtual world AH2 has created. It is basically a band of sand applied to the coastline tiles meeting the sea. The difference, which you may note by comparing the upper half and under half, speaks for itself.
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So to sum it up, here's my suggestion:
1. Increase the Brightness and Contrast levels of the land tile textures.
2. Though I am not aware of how the tiles are produced for the coastline area, it will bring significant increase in immersion if merely beaches are added to the coastline.
If the coastline is made up of individual tiles in the traditional way, then please add a band of sand in the textures - even if it is crude, it will still look better than what is current.
If there is a separate system or code which "generates" the coastline, then I might suggest to add in another code, which creates a "sand layer" of certain width which is automatically created for every land tile which meets the sea tile. (I admit I have no idea if this will be hard or easy).
These suggestions, I am confident, will increase the visual quality of AH2 terrain without any change in the graphic engine, utilizing only what is available.
- K
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Oh btw, the in-game time for all of those pics, was set on 1:30 PM, when the sun is up high.
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You can adjust gamma to individual taste in the game in the video settings.
Although screenshots don't capture the gamma adjustment - I've adjusted gamma in the following shots with psp (the look is identical to what you see in the game):
(http://jollyrogers.info/CAG44/normal.jpg)
Gamma normal
(http://jollyrogers.info/CAG44/1.3.jpg)
Gamma 1.3
(http://jollyrogers.info/CAG44/1.6.jpg)
Gamma 1.6
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I'm aware of that Arlo. But adjusting the gamma and adjusting the contrast/brightness of the tiles has very different results.
Adusting gamma comes at a price of brightening up the entire screen, which is not what should be done.
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Adjusting the gamma does kinda add an unatural hue to the graphics.
I was chasing an LA5 at low alt the other day and couldn't track him for the darkness of the terrain. I increased gamma and found tracking amidst the terrain much easier but it doesn't quite look right.
Kweassa is on point. Small touches, such as brightness and beaches would add to the realism and overall feel to the game.
Excellent work. :aok
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Yes please brighten up this dreary game, I think its more then just terrain colors.
Take a ss of the under side of your ac, its very dark as well. It would appear to me that the light isnt reflecting back from the terrain. The terrain just absorbs the sunlight.
At 14:00 the water still looks like crude oil and even at 600yrds its difficult to see a plane against the water.
Adjusting gamma helps but the more adjustments the more the image quality suffers as the colors "wash out".
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Not sure that I understand it all, but I always read Kweassas posts with interest, and this is very interesting indeed. He seems to have a grasp on the technical aspect of the game. If this has merit, I'm all for it. Something don't look right on my end, so I will follow this. Your efforts are noted.
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Amen kweassa!
Terrain currently looks like its storming out even though we have blue sky.
Lighten up the terrain and we can have more fog, diff color sky.
And the water is WAY to dark.
Close to shore it should be a light aqua, blending deeper as the depth increases.
I love fights over the ocean but you can't see any low plane to shoot it until you get below it.
Not just manly blue planes either.
Ideally you should have big patch's of wind swirls, whitecaps, & foam on the top of the swells.
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Kweassa you have hit the nail on the head.
the darkness/gloom has bothered me throughout the beta - I find it really hard to see (have posted on this)
Thos pics are great ! - I hope it's an easy fix to the textures
Who wants to fly in english winters when we can fly in caribbean summers :)
Redd
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Although the brightness is a LITTLE much for my tastes, Kweassa is dead on here. I love the increase in contrast, although I'd prefer just a little less brightness than he depicts, likely about 10%.
I agree on the "cartoonish" sky as well.
I also agree with Batz on the water. It is too dark. And I agree with Batz that it appears that the terrain absorbs too much light compared to what it should reflect instead.
I don't think I want to see bright sunny skies all the time by any stretch though. I do want to see dreary overcast conditions and other less than ideal weather as well.
Great points and ideas on both counts, I hope HTC sees it that way as well, and is able to make it so. Thanks to Kweassa for the effort and Batz for the thoughts. Great job guys.
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Wtg, Kweassa, absolute right on. Hate playing dreary looking games. Always thought that was a main reason for demise of WarBirds.
Gamma definitely not the answer -- just fades everything.
Gotta have bright pleasing environment to start with and then drab up a little as needed for weather and seasonal variations.
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Kweassa, could you do another shot with the land set to +20 as opposed to +40. I don't have the software to do that, but I'd sure like to see that tried. I'd really appreciate it if you either have a shot already or have the time to do it.
Thanks.
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Kweassa.
WTG!!! Dang we are lucky to have guys like you in the General Community to speak our mind. And to boot...you have the know how to give it a face. Thanks for taking the time. Salute
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It has to come with the change from olive drab. Brightened olive drab is ugly.
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land is too bright at +40, something in the 30s is what I'd put.
I like the rest.
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Good points kweassa............
plus I hope that transitions can be used to give proper beach/shoreline effects.......... grass/nograss is not very effective.
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As as experiment taking two screenshots and bringing them up in photoshop I did two things only ( besides making them smaller).
screenshots taken at gamma 1.4.
First I clicked "auto levels".
Then I desaturated both to -30.
This is what you get. No olive drab, brown is introduced in it's absense. The sky looks right, the colors look more natural. I like it.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/474_1085933475_post2.jpg)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/474_1085933555_post1.jpg)
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Holy wow, do those two look good.
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Bestest yet, Poop!
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Very nice nopoop, I like that.
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But I have no idea what adjustments need to be done with the tiles and lighting to duplicate it.
KW is on the track, he'll figure it out. Main thing is, it can be done. Most likely tile color saturation, lightness and contrast adjustments.
IT'S ALL THERE. Just let KW mess with tiles and such..
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Agree completely..... Would like to see reply from HTC
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nopoop, these adjustments are brilliant, big
for you and definitively WTG.
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dont know if it would be as easy as you say it would be...didnt hitech say something about the terrain tiles being 3d now and wouldent that make such changes slightly harder?
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Okay, time for a stoopid question...
How much of the overall brightness/darkness/contrast is determined by the designer of the map? Don't the tiles and overall color schemes get determined during creation by them? If that is the case this post should be directed at Fester since he's got the best map-making ability.
Pizza and Infinity can just go away and however much I enjoyed them, it is clear there are too many players for the small maps anymore.
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Awesome reference shots, nopoop. If HTC can make AHII look like that I'll be in heaven!
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I know it's still beta and there are updates still to come. But at this stage I can't believe how bad the terrain,water and sky looks at this stage and that it is any improvement over AH1.
I wasn't expecting AH2 to look like (or worse) AH1 in any way.
...-Gixer
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Originally posted by Edbert MOL
Okay, time for a stoopid question...
How much of the overall brightness/darkness/contrast is determined by the designer of the map? Don't the tiles and overall color schemes get determined during creation by them? If that is the case this post should be directed at Fester since he's got the best map-making ability.
Pizza and Infinity can just go away and however much I enjoyed them, it is clear there are too many players for the small maps anymore.
The tiles and such are stored in a Textures folder i think. Then the different tiles are applied to a map based on the creators choice as to which tiles to apply to which Alt. Something like dat. So Once this is stored ...when a new map created it's simple to apply the tiles that the creator wishes. This is a Poor explaination. LOL Hope someone elaborates. :D
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dude..nopoop..tht sheite looks dammm good..is tht the same AH2 we play?..*** mine doesnt look tht good:(..and kwease...kik asssssss good thoughts..
Salute
BiGB
xoxo
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As requested, a mock-up bit toned down in brightness and contrast. The sky colors is using the recent setting I suggested but not implemented.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/232_1085959041_landtextures3.jpg)
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Thank you sir. That is what I was looking for.
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My 2 cents:
1) Both Kweassa's and Nopoop's efforts are definately a step in the right direction. Thanks guys!!
2) However, although lightening the tiles improves things, I think the plane needs to be a bit better lit as well. Look at the wing in the Kweassa's 2nd image in the first post, it looks a bit dark.
3) So, I think that the overall lighting / reflection of light from ground needs to somehow be increased, if possible, in addition to lightening the tiles.
4) Agree with the comments about visiblility over water, as I have mentioned in several other posts. With my 52-year-old eyesight, I just can't see to shoot when target is over water in AH2; AH1 was ok.
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Originally posted by TDeacon
However, although lightening the tiles improves things, I think the plane needs to be a bit better lit as well. Look at the wing in the Kweassa's 2nd image in the first post, it looks a bit dark.
So, I think that the overall lighting / reflection of light from ground needs to somehow be increased, if possible, in addition to lightening the tiles.
Agree with the comments about visiblility over water, as I have mentioned in several other posts. With my 52-year-old eyesight, I just can't see to shoot when target is over water in AH2; AH1 was ok.
I may be at a disadvantage here. I can't see in the game unless my gamma is at 1.4 minimum. Over water that's almost not enough. I agree with Deacon lighting, reflection of light etc. It should be correct without messing with it. And from this side it's way to dark/dreary.
My disadvantage is this. EVEN with a posted screen shot as with Greebo's beautiful hog....it's too dark for me. My desktop is at 1.2 gamma and that's on the light side.
(http://www.gfg06.dial.pipex.com/bighog.jpg)
Is it dark to everyone else ?? I can't adjust my Sony to adobe specs as it doesn't have the brightness adjustable setting.
From my moniter THIS is the correct brightness for the screenshot.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/474_1085964662_bighog2.jpg)
Does it look correct to you guys, or is it too light ??
I haven't a reference point to "know" I'm looking at what everyone else is.
Drives me crazy, but not as crazy of this skin/photoshop interface thing that is making it difficult to the point of not putting in the time..
BTW Deacon I'll be a year older than you on Thursday :D
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Originally posted by nopoop
(http://www.gfg06.dial.pipex.com/bighog.jpg)
Is it dark to everyone else ?? I can't adjust my Sony to adobe specs as it doesn't have the brightness adjustable setting.
From my moniter THIS is the correct brightness for the screenshot.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/474_1085964662_bighog2.jpg)
Does it look correct to you guys, or is it too light ??
I haven't a reference point to "know" I'm looking at what everyone else is.
The sky color in the upper right looks turquoise green.
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Excellent work guys, looks great.
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Nopoop, the picture you prefer works for me as well apart from the sky but i suspect you get that as well.
The F4U and the sea however looks good.
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Originally posted by nopoop
As as experiment taking two screenshots and bringing them up in photoshop I did two things only ( besides making them smaller).
screenshots taken at gamma 1.4.
First I clicked "auto levels".
Then I desaturated both to -30.
This is what you get. No olive drab, brown is introduced in it's absense. The sky looks right, the colors look more natural. I like it.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/474_1085933475_post2.jpg)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/474_1085933555_post1.jpg)
nopoop. The picture looks real nice. However i have a question/comment.
I have built a few maps, and i dont recall a way to disect your Screen Shot into the proper .tex folder of the terrain editor. Are you just trying to illustrate the way the colors/brightness/contrast should look? One that a tile maker can use as examples?Or am i missing something? :D
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Originally posted by Mugzeee
Are you just trying to illustrate the way the colors/brightness/contrast should look?
That's all I was attempting to do. It "looks" good. How to duplicate the "look" using tiles, ambient lighting, contrast, color and such I don't have a clue.
I wanted to see if using photoshop I could duplicate the change from clicking "auto levels" by doing in manually so I'd have some numbers ie: hue, saturation, color balance, contrast etc. To work with. So far I haven't been able to.
If I had numbers in photoshop, then maybe it could be transposed over to ingame parameters.
No luck so far.
The other thing to remember which is very important. The terrain tiles being used now probably won't be around long. I think of them as place holders. Aren't you able to use your own colors when making tiles ?? Will they be 1024 tiles ??
Can you imagine what our terrain builders could come up with using 1024 tiles ??
:D
If so the only real thing that needs work is the ambient lighting.
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Originally posted by nopoop
That's all I was attempting to do. It "looks" good. How to duplicate the "look" using tiles, ambient lighting, contrast, color and such I don't have a clue.
I wanted to see if using photoshop I could duplicate the change from clicking "auto levels" by doing in manually so I'd have some numbers ie: hue, saturation, color balance, contrast etc. To work with. So far I haven't been able to.
If I had numbers in photoshop, then maybe it could be transposed over to ingame parameters.
No luck so far.
The other thing to remember which is very important. The terrain tiles being used now probably won't be around long. I think of them as place holders. Aren't you able to use your own colors when making tiles ?? Will they be 1024 tiles ??
Can you imagine what our terrain builders could come up with using 1024 tiles ??
:D
If so the only real thing that needs work is the ambient lighting.
256x256 8 bit as i remember And the actual folder is the "texsrc" folder.
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the only problem with nopoops and kweassas pics is that the colours are completly wonky...i aint never seen grass that colour of green...
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Unfortunately the IL2 shot at top of thread is still the only one showing realisticly coloured grass.
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Ya, but still, besides the flamethrowers, Il-2's ground is the only thing I just can't get used to in an otherwise brilliant sim. It's like WWII Fighters, and adds a bit of cartoonish feel to it. Not sure why, I just don't like it. It seems 'fat' in the graphics dept, not that that explains it any better.
I like poops ground. Actually, it looks terrific.
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Same here. That IL2 shot looks like astroturf to me.
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You grow up on a farm and haul hay for 20 years you see every color of grass there is. I've seen grass every shade from near pure blue to green (every shade), to yellow, to brown. None of what I've seen from nopoop or Kweassa looks far enough off to be unacceptable.
That one shot from nopoop with the turquoise sky is off in sky color, but I notice it didn't show up when posted again.
Since both HiTech and Pyro were here today I was hoping they'd weigh in on what's been posted here, but maybe they're waiting for more or there's some stuff we don't know about yet.
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Nopoop's pictures are a little bit too sepia: They look at lot like the oversaturated colour photos from WWII. However, they are quite a bit more vibrant than AHII currently, and real-life colours are very vibrant. There are faults with both sets of pictures (Nopoop's sepia tones and Kweassa's slight neon-glow effect), but both are definitive steps forward.
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Err what is your reference season ,time of day and part of the planet ???
I mean is it over ETO,MTO,PTO ?
In the case of ETO it can vary a lot depending of the region for example Normandy is not like PACA...
Just look here :
It's how it look here (during spring)
(http://www.yannick-le-gal.com/imgs/grandes/aerien16.jpg)
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I hope the terrain and sea graphics aren't "IT" for AH2 as they are. Currently they look so bad it puts me off playing the game altogether even as a Beta.
...-Gixer
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No gizer they are part of the stock tiles for terrains. But once nuttz & some of the other map makers get through with em it will be a whole nother ball game.
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Hallelujah! Finally some answers to a question I posted two weeks ago (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=117127). Excellent thread! Bottom line, the gloomy/dark problem is the one reason I rarely do Warbirds II/2004 anymore and shifted over to AH a while back. I loved the FM and ballistics but could not accommodate to the murky graphics. Now, AH II looks like I’m always in a night fight with half the number of retinal rods I need to track the target. Forget it when the bogie drops below the horizon while over the ocean because then it becomes practically invisible! These post are right on track. Hopefully these suggestions are within the capabilities of the new AH II graphics engine. I haven’t noticed a response from HTC yet. :confused:
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outside Leiden, The Netherlands last week.
(http://141.161.196.100/amsterdam/SCS_0028.jpg)
I know a couple of people that would never leave the ground if they had graphics like that.
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Ohhhhhhohhhhohhhhhh.......... ...
Sheeeeeeeepppppp.......
FYI we cant post porn :)
kalamori
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Since both HiTech and Pyro were here today I was hoping they'd weigh in on what's been posted here, but maybe they're waiting for more or there's some stuff we don't know about yet.
We agree with the premise of this thread and it is something we're working on to try and improve.
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When I first saw the screenshot you posted nopoop, I thought it was real. Then I realized it was AH. WTFG man! If only it were actually like that :(
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We agree with the premise of this thread and it is something we're working on to try and improve.
Thank you for noting the suggestion with such patience as ever Pyro :)
Will be looking forward to such improvements!
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Originally posted by Pyro
We agree with the premise of this thread and it is something we're working on to try and improve.
I was pretty sure that was the case, I figured you had something in the works and just hadn't said anything.
Thanks,
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Bravo Kweassa and Pyro for giving us hope for superlative sky, sea, and ground settings.
Gorgeous graphic backgrounds make all the difference between an okay experience we accept grudgingly and an exciting immersion we can't wait to repeat.
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I've found a good source of aerial pictures for Normandie :
http://www.dday04.com/
this one is more general :
http://www.francecoastline.com/
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Originally posted by nopoop
As as experiment taking two screenshots and bringing them up in photoshop I did two things only ( besides making them smaller).
screenshots taken at gamma 1.4.
First I clicked "auto levels".
Then I desaturated both to -30.
This is what you get. No olive drab, brown is introduced in it's absense. The sky looks right, the colors look more natural. I like it.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/474_1085933475_post2.jpg)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/474_1085933555_post1.jpg)
NOPOOP , THAT'S PERFECT ! *****
CHECKERS
"Less is More "