Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Shuckins on May 31, 2004, 10:33:42 AM
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...by our current generation and with our present Congress and Executive Administration in charge? How would they have reacted to the military disasters of early 1942?
Shuckins/Leggern
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How the press would have reported it:
1939 March 15
THEN: German Troops Enter Prague; Czechoslovakia Dismembered
IF NOW WERE THEN: Bush Abandons Eastern Europeans to Nazis
1939 September 1
THEN: Germany Invades Poland
IF NOW WERE THEN: Bush Fails to Defend Poles
1939 September 3
THEN: Britain, France, Australia and New Zealand Declare War on Germany
IF NOW WERE THEN: Bush Idle As World Acts
1940 May 27-28
THEN: Allies Evacuate Dunkirk
IF NOW WERE THEN: Bush Unfamiliar with History of the Normans
1940 July 10
THEN: Battle of Britain begins
IF NOW WERE THEN: Bush Pilot's License Expires
1941 December 7
THEN: Japan Attacks Pearl Harbour
IF NOW WERE THEN: Bush Missed Signs of Pending Jap Attack
1941 December 8
THEN: Allies Declare War on Japan
IF NOW WERE THEN: Bush Welcomes Allied Support
1941 December 11
THEN: Germany and Italy Declare War on United States
IF NOW WERE THEN: Bush Fails to Negotiate Solution with Axis Powers
1942 January 1
THEN: U.N. Declaration Signed by 26 Countries
IF NOW WERE THEN: Pearl Harbor Families Fault Bush for Hawaiin Attack
1942 June 3-4
THEN: Battle of Midway
IF NOW WERE THEN: U.S. Suffers Massive Casualties
1942 August 12
THEN: Stalin and Churchill Meet in Moscow
IF NOW WERE THEN: Bush Heads to Texas for Summer Vacation
1942 November 11
THEN: Germans Occupy Southern France
IF NOW WERE THEN: Bush Loses Wine Region Nazis
1943 March
THEN: Germans Repulsed in Russia, Caucasuses
IF NOW WERE THEN: Bush Unable to Pronounce Caucasuses
1943 June 9
THEN: Allies Invade Sicily
IF NOW WERE THEN: Bush Take Long Way Through Italy
1943 July 25
THEN: Mussolini Captured, Imprisoned
IF NOW WERE THEN: Bush May Have Condoned Rought Treatment of Mussolini
1943 September 8
THEN: Italians Surrender to Germans
IF NOW WERE THEN: Bush Refuses to Reveal U.S. War Plans
1943 September 12
THEN: Mussolini is Rescued
IF NOW WERE THEN: Mussolini Eludes Bush's Grasp
1944 June 4
THEN: Rome Falls to Allies
IF NOW WERE THEN: Bush Fails to Open Second Front in France
1944 June 6
THEN: D-Day Invasion of Normandy Begins
IF NOW WERE THEN: Bush Approved Risky Invasion "Scheme"
1944 June 27
THEN: Americans Take Cherbourg
IF NOW WERE THEN: Americans Bogged Down in France
1944 July 30
THEN: Hitler Assassination Attempt Fails
IF NOW WERE THEN: Bush Bungles Hitler Hit
1944 December 16
THEN: Battle of Bulge Begins
IF NOW WERE THEN: Germans Route Allies, 101st Airborne Lost
1945 January 17
THEN: Russians Liberate Warsaw
IF NOW WERE THEN: Halliburton Lands Lurcrative Military Contracts in France
1945 February 9
THEN: British Reach Rhine
IF NOW WERE THEN:U.S. Tanks Damage Wildlife Refuge in Alscace Region
1945 April 13
THEN: Belen Concentration Camp Captured by Americans
IF NOW WERE THEN: Democrats Claim Bush's War A Plot to Secure Jewish Votes
1945 April 28
THEN: Mussolini Dies
IF NOW WERE THEN: Bush Budget Defecit Grows as War Costs Escalate
1945 April 29
THEN: Germany Surrenders Unconditionally
IF NOW WERE THEN: Losses Mount in Pacific
1945 April 30
THEN: Hitler Commits Suicide
IF NOW WERE THEN: Bush Fails to Capture Hitler
1945 August 6
THEN: Atomic Bomb Dropped on Hiroshima
IF NOW WERE THEN: Bush Massacres Japanese Civilians
1945 August 9
THEN: Atomic Bomb Dropped on Nagasaki
IF NOW WERE THEN: Bush Atrocities in Japan Continue
1945 August 14
THEN: Japan Agrees to Unconditional Surrender
IF NOW WERE THEN: Millions Threatened with Job Loss as War Ends
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Keep this up, Rip, and I'm gonna take away your scissors and paste! ;)
Regards, Shuckins/Leggern
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lol rip.
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The current generation *could* pull it off, as long as it was over in a month or so. Public pressure and gratuitous use of the word "quagmire" would otherwise force the bargaining table.
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Aren't you really asking wether or not the generation of the 40's could have pulled it off given the current state of information exchange?
I refuse to believe that those people are or were any different in general than people today.
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They are MT, no question about it. They understood that sacrifice did not mean paying 2 bucks a gallon for gas, and that War is ugly and unpredictable, and they assumed the best of their leaders, not the worst.
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Too late Ripsnort..Your gov should have reacted in 1939.
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Red Storm Rising is a good book.
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Originally posted by Lizking
They are MT, no question about it. They understood that sacrifice did not mean paying 2 bucks a gallon for gas, and that War is ugly and unpredictable, and they assumed the best of their leaders, not the worst.
course they did have different leaders....
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Who were no better or worse than the current crop.
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No, that's not what I'm asking Midnight. There ARE differences between the two generations, whether many of OUR generation are willing to admit it or not.
There aren't any differences in personal courage. No, what I'm referring to here is the willingness to remain committed to a great cause despite stunning setbacks. Be honest. Do you really think the current generation would react in the same way the "Greatest Generation" did to the catastrophic defeats at Bataan and Corregidor and the surrender of 70,000 American and Filipino troops? The current generation just saw its soldiers topple two hostile regimes in less than two years. Total casualties of approximately 1000 are meager by 1940's standards. Yet the press and many politicians are wringing their hands in dread of a possible quagmire.
Yes, I think there are some differences. The generation of the 1940's, raised with fewer luxuries, more responsibilities, and less free time, and having survived the Great Depression, and being more familiar with personal sacrifice, were cut from a different bolt of cloth. The current generation of American civilians lacks the internal fortitude for protracted struggle.
Regards, Shuckins/Leggern
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All jap atrocities would have been forgotten when pics of naked jap prisoners were released..
amnesty international would have ignored the "jewish problem" and jap atrocities and concentrated on the mean ol U.S. troops.
lazs
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I have to agree on what rip found...
Our press focus on negative stuff, cause thats what we watch, we WANT to hear about deaths and killings, supposedly, I'd more rather have video of our soldiers playing cards, on patrol playing with the Iraqi kids, eating dinner, reciving an award etc. Not killing...
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Aren't you really asking wether or not the generation of the 40's could have pulled it off given the current state of information exchange?
I refuse to believe that those people are or were any different in general than people today.
Are you serious?
I believe that there are major differences in the generation that came of age in the early 1940s and ours. Generally:
They grew up in a depression, had very little and were very poor.
When they worked, they worked very long and hard.
They were much tougher than we are.
They were more willing to accept any job.
They were more self sufficient.
General advantages of our generation:
We are more highly educated.
While prejudice still is everywhere, it is not nearly as severe or widespread.
We are more informed.
Another difference:
We’ve had a lot of history since the 1940’s to reflect upon, including a few very unpopular wars. This has had a major impact on our attitudes and opinions of war in general.
It’s pretty tough to compare the two generations. Either you must imagine our generation being whisked back in time to replace the 1940’s generation, or, their generation whisking forward to replace ours in a future war. We will never fight a war like theirs. It’s very hard to imagine us now getting into a war of sustained industry, as they fought.
If we were forced into a war that ultimately would result in our country’s survival, and the survival of freedom itself, I think that we would survive and even shine. We would complain a lot more, and we might even collectively lose a few pounds.
I do not believe that we would shine anywhere near as brightly as the greatest generation did, however.
eskimo
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8 posts since I hit the "Quote" button.
Great question/topic.
eskimo
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Here shuckins, let me give you the answer you obviously expect:
Lordy lordy no, we're all a bunch of spineless cowards! I say, I say, please suh, stop with all the war! We all want to surrender because we're nothing compared to the self proclaimed 'greatest generation'!
:rolleyes:
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you forgot one Rip-
Dec, 7 1941,
Japan attacks Pearl Harbor, Bush declares war on Korea, stating "we can't let these attacks go un-answered"
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Chairboy,
Dam right you're not! Neither am I.
Want to prove you're their equal...get up before daylight, feed the livestock, eat breakfast, plow a forty-acre field behind a mule, come home after dark, clean up eat supper, read your Bible, then go to bed. Kill all your own meat, raise your own vegetables, trap for furs when the crops fail, lose half your children to disease, lay up four cords of firewood with cross-cut saw and double-bitted axe, can vegetables and meats using a wood-burning stove in an un-airconditioned house during the dog-days of summer. Make, darn, knit, and mend your own clothes. Worry about having the five cents it takes to buy a pair of boot laces. Lace your boots with baling string if you don't have the five cents. Delight your children with Christmas gifts consisting of stocking stuffed with apples, oranges, a piece of peppermint, cheap cloth doll, and a wooden top.
In other words, work like a dog 6 days a week.
Most of us couldn't do it. So, YEAH, they were made of sterner stuff than you and I.
Shuckins/Leggern
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Originally posted by SirLoin
Too late Ripsnort..Your gov should have reacted in 1939.
What? And go against the wishes of the US population who was decidely against joining this silly european war...
They reacted in 1939. Yep! By doing largely nothing and staying out of the unpopular war, just like the US people wanted. And just like France, Germany, Russia did today when we asked them for support in Iraq...
I thought yiou guys were against governments leading people into wars against their wishes...
Or does that only hold true when the USA needs help from her allues and not the other way around?
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Originally posted by Shuckins
Chairboy,
Dam right you're not! Neither am I.
Want to prove you're their equal...get up before daylight, feed the livestock, eat breakfast, plow a forty-acre field behind a mule, come home after dark, clean up eat supper, read your Bible, then go to bed. Kill all your own meat, raise your own vegetables, trap for furs when the crops fail, lose half your children to disease, lay up four cords of firewood with cross-cut saw and double-bitted axe, can vegetables and meats using a wood-burning stove in an un-airconditioned house during the dog-days of summer. Make, darn, knit, and mend your own clothes. Worry about having the five cents it takes to buy a pair of boot laces. Lace your boots with baling string if you don't have the five cents. Delight your children with Christmas gifts consisting of stocking stuffed with apples, oranges, a piece of peppermint, cheap cloth doll, and a wooden top.
In other words, work like a dog 6 days a week.
Most of us couldn't do it. So, YEAH, they were made of sterner stuff than you and I.
Shuckins/Leggern
I live with two octagenerians. Their retired and they still work harder than I do.
eskimo
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Ah, didn't realize that circa 1940 everyone in the United States lived at Little House on the Prairie.
I think you're off by about 50 years, but that's ok. By your logic, the finest examples of humanity were cavemen and it's been downhill ever since as technology/progress has made little things easier one by one.
This is pretty typical extension of the christian idea that all humans are born without a chance to be sin free. You're damned if you do, and damned if you... do.
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things are easier now than even 30 years ago but... people are much softer. they are soft physicaly and mentaly.
we are becoming some kind of Orwell Ayn Rand mix of a novel.
lazs
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What I'm saying, armChairBoy, is that technological advances have made life easier without ennobling the spirit.
Faced with the challenges of the 1930s and 40s, that generation demonstrated the capacity for sustained sacrifice. I do not believe that the current generation could do the same, although I hope that it would.
By the way, by what twisted leap of logic do you interpret this as a religious topic?
Shuckins/Leggern
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We could and would pull it off again today, no question in my mind.
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people are as tough or determined as their situation demands.
it's pointless to compare one generation to another. would we have a hard time dealing with life 50-60 years ago yes (and so did they).
but I bet if you took someone from that time and dropped him into todays life he would fair no better in my time than I would in his.
btw- if people are really getting weaker and stupider, why do almost every worlds record in any subject continue to get broken? every few years you get somebody who runs faster, jumps higher, lifts more weight, or invents something that nobody would have dreamed of 50 years ago.
not to take anything away from past generations, they did what they had to do and concentrated on things that where important in their lives. just like we do, and every generation in the past or the future would or will do.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Ah, didn't realize that circa 1940 everyone in the United States lived at Little House on the Prairie.
I think you're off by about 50 years, but that's ok. By your logic, the finest examples of humanity were cavemen and it's been downhill ever since as technology/progress has made little things easier one by one.
This is pretty typical extension of the christian idea that all humans are born without a chance to be sin free. You're damned if you do, and damned if you... do.
"1940 The downward spiral in the number of farms in the U.S. begins. Farmers would decrease from 30 percent of the population to less than 3 percent by 1981. "
Source (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/trouble/timeline/index_2.html)
eskimo
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Originally posted by lazs2
All jap atrocities would have been forgotten when pics of naked jap prisoners were released..
amnesty international would have ignored the "jewish problem" and jap atrocities and concentrated on the mean ol U.S. troops.
lazs
And lazs would fit right in as a soldier in the Nazi death camps.
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Originally posted by lazs2
things are easier now than even 30 years ago but... people are much softer. they are soft physicaly and mentaly.
we are becoming some kind of Orwell Ayn Rand mix of a novel.
lazs
dang if you ain't right. LOL at the Orwell/Rand analogy.
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Originally posted by eskimo2
"1940 The downward spiral in the number of farms in the U.S. begins. Farmers would decrease from 30 percent of the population to less than 3 percent by 1981. "
Source (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/trouble/timeline/index_2.html)
eskimo
Even though farmers only made up 30% of the US population, many additional families partially subsided with gardens, hunting and fishing.
eskimo
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Originally posted by Hawklore
I have to agree on what rip found...
Our press focus on negative stuff, cause thats what we watch, we WANT to hear about deaths and killings, supposedly, I'd more rather have video of our soldiers playing cards, on patrol playing with the Iraqi kids, eating dinner, reciving an award etc. Not killing...
And had this happened in Clinton's term, the neo-cons would have claimed that he was taking us to war to hide his transgressions...
It cuts both ways, fellas...
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Originally posted by Red Tail 444
And had this happened in Clinton's term, the neo-cons would have claimed that he was taking us to war to hide his transgressions...
It cuts both ways, fellas...
Except we would have been correct as we have become accustomed to always being. Be reasonable, see it our way.
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Originally posted by storch
Be reasonable, see it our way.
you can't have it both ways. pick one or the other.
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I wonder how today's press would cover this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II)
,or this. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Tokyo_in_World_War_II)
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Originally posted by Shuckins
What I'm saying, armChairBoy, is that technological advances have made life easier without ennobling the spirit.
"armChairboy"? Can't you support your argument without some sort of weird personal attack?
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sorry Rip but Bush doesn't belong and deserve a place between churchill and roosevelt.
He is far from it.
Anyone comparing Iraq with WW2 is nutz.
Oh and America didn't won the war alone.
It was WORLD war not local like Iraq.
And the US wanted to be isolated until attacked at Pearl Harbour.
U did a very wrong comparison.
sorry mate ur far off.
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Chairboy,
Given the condescending tone of your first two posts, what kind of response did you EXPECT to get from me?
My main point was that changes in our national character in the last 50 years have been profound. If this generation were to be somehow transplanted in time to the 1940s, the entire course of history would have been changed. In my opinion, a single battle comparable to Guadalcanal would cause this post-Vietnam generation to demand an immediate withdrawal from the conflict. As a result, Japan would dominate the western Pacific and southeast Asia, and Germany would have taken advantage of our vacillation to finish developing the atomic bomb. We would be living in a very different world today.
Sorry if I seem a bit testy, but I felt like some of your comments were flippant and outside the scope of this discussion.
Shuckins/Leggern
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1945 April 13
THEN: Belen Concentration Camp Captured by Americans
IF NOW WERE THEN: Democrats Claim Bush's War A Plot to Secure Jewish Votes
LMAO Oh thats a good one :)
btw- if people are really getting weaker and stupider, why do almost every worlds record in any subject continue to get broken? every few years you get somebody who runs faster, jumps higher, lifts more weight, or invents something that nobody would have dreamed of 50 years ago.
Its called Steroids.:aok
This generations so much more capable of dealing with the same type of issue but the liberal press would crucify the leaders over it.People are sheep.They would believe what they are spoonfed by CNN and the Washington post.Not to mention the NY Times.Hell CNN even admitted they played down Sadams atrocities so they could stay and cover the war.Where was the outrage on THAT one?
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Originally posted by Red Tail 444
And lazs would fit right in as a soldier in the Nazi death camps.
Red Tail You are WAY OUT OF LINE.....
I agree w/ laz todays media would concentrate on the fact that japs are being interned against their will and completly ignore how our GIs are fareing in thier prisons.
saying that laz would fit in at a nazi death camp is just idiodic. Pure stupidity on your part. way to show your true colors bro.
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Yea really man that was over the top.The Nazis didnt like CV's either so he wouldnt have fit...............wait a minute.
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Getting back to the subject...
I think it's pretty clear how the American public has reacted over the years to loss. I think the early losses in WW2 would have had the same effect on todays American as the World Trade Center did..... Increased resolve.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Getting back to the subject...
I think it's pretty clear how the American public has reacted over the years to loss. I think the early losses in WW2 would have had the same effect on todays American as the World Trade Center did..... Increased resolve.
Fare enough MT. I dont think the public can stomache a war were they are seeing live bodies burning and bombs falling.
Today's media w/ today's president would not be able to pull it off. I think it would be reported exactly how rip says. I think the D-day invasion would be reported as a failure because of the causualties and the "live" footage.
It just wouldnt work.
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Interesting question, Shukins.
I believe that people that lived in past times were 'tougher' than us, both mentally and physically and cultural norms played a part in it too.
When you see WW2 soldiers interviewed today, it seems to me that there was an extremely strong ethos of 'nothing to fear except fear itself' and to show cowardice was the worst possible thing you could do as you would be socially stigmatised for the rest of your life.
I've just read a book on Shackleton's trip to the South Pole (in 1914) - those guys must have been made of steel to have survived through what they did under the conditions they did.
Ravs
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I don't think we're any different. You veterans know it. You busted your bellybutton in training and you busted your bellybutton on deployments.
Fifty years ago, wars were slower and the weapons were less lethal. Hell, our guys walked across Iraq in what, three weeks? Granted, there wasn't a lot of opposition, but fighting today runs at a blistering pace compared to WWII.
Maybe the forces from 50 years ago had a lot more endurance in them than today. Maybe the people were more willing to put up with a long protracted war. I don't know. I think our armed services are better educated today than ever before and they fight with great efficiency.
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dea... you have me mixed up with someone else. I LIKE cv's.
as for red tail... he is just angry because I have made him face his biggotry. He doesn't like me because I believe in equality... unlike the trained liberals he normally "associates" with. If you never face your biggotry you will never be able to deal with it.
once you face it yu can deal with it in a fair and logical manner.
I hold out hope for him tho.
lazs
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Best bet is to look at Afghanistan and then compare. A war worth fighting and all that. We seem to be doing fairly well over there.
-SW
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Sandman,
Didn't really mean for this to be a debate about modern troops versus WWII GIs. Our technology is greater, true, and that allowed us to win a quick victory in Iraq.
But if you study the history of land warfare during the Second World War you would find numerous examples of armies winning rapid and stunning victories over enemies whose technology was roughly on a par with their adversaries. Many of the tactics used by our forces in Iraq are based on the "blitzkrieg" first used by the Germans in Europe, North Africa, and the Soviet Union.
My premise is that the modern populace, if transplanted to the time of Pearl Harbor, would not have had the stomach to sustain the type of casualties necessary to win that conflict.
Feel free to take that premise apart.
Regards, Shuckins/Leggern
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alot of the public doesnt realize they are part of the "war effort" There was still one senator that voted no on the vote to declare war on japan if my memory serves correct ( I could be wrong I'm not sure)
today's public would not tolerate the casualties and images from war. I thank God himself that we no longer have the communist threat....imagine a war against the warsaw pact today with the peace loving public.
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Originally posted by Shuckins
My premise is that the modern populace, if transplanted to the time of Pearl Harbor, would not have had the stomach to sustain the type of casualties necessary to win that conflict.
Feel free to take that premise apart.
If the cause is just, and the danger is clear and present, I think the people would indeed tolerate it. Unfortunately, the only example of this since WWII is our invasion of Afghanistan.
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Originally posted by lazs2
things are easier now than even 30 years ago but... people are much softer. they are soft physicaly and mentaly.
we are becoming some kind of Orwell Ayn Rand mix of a novel.
lazs
Damn, I am impressed. Old limping bikers that are smart, ought to hold some type of office. California might be better off.
Now if only the Grateful Dead won't do a reunion...
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Just so others understand I was only reflecting on the Press part not the bush part..
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Hey Hawk send me the link for the bop's web page will ya?
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True Scholz...also back then, people (in the west, anyway) had a lot less in terms of possessions - social order was more rigid and many more people lived in rural, rather than urban areas, which I think gives a person a very different perspective.
Also, death, whether in the form of disease or accidents was more commonplace, and wasn't sterilsed in the way it is now.
Ravs
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, we seem to be in it from the start of all the big ones, and some of the bad ones......
I couldn't imagaine we wouldn't be in it again...
Tronsky
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Aren't you really asking wether or not the generation of the 40's could have pulled it off given the current state of information exchange?
I refuse to believe that those people are or were any different in general than people today.
The information exchange is the reason they were different.
We dont hear any good news and they didnt hear any bad news.
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
The information exchange is the reason they were different.
We dont hear any good news and they didnt hear any bad news.
If you study US propaganda in WWII, there was a general trend at the beginning of the war to shield the public from disturbing images and stories. As the war progressed, censorship became more and more graphic. By the end of the war, some pictures and stories that were shown in US papers were outright horrifying.
Clearly your statement was meant as a generalization.
eskimo
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Originally posted by eskimo2
Clearly your statement was meant as a generalization.
eskimo
Clearly. Cherrio.
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Originally posted by DrDea
Hey Hawk send me the link for the bop's web page will ya?
Haha,
I can't remember it.. I'll try and remember...
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Here shuckins, let me give you the answer you obviously expect:
Lordy lordy no, we're all a bunch of spineless cowards! I say, I say, please suh, stop with all the war! We all want to surrender because we're nothing compared to the self proclaimed 'greatest generation'!
:rolleyes:
There is no "self proclaimed greatest generation". Not one of those men and women I've ever met, and I know several who are genuine heroes, would ever even think of even modestly stating their accomplishments. Your statement is one of the most insulting pompous spews of unadulterate bull***** I've ever heard. The term "greatest generation" was coined by those who came later, and recognized what they did.
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My mistake, then I amend my statement to finish:
We all want to surrender because we're nothing compared to 'greatest generation', as characterized by those who realize and appreciate their contributions.
As for the rest of my response, I stand by it. To diminish the resolve and strength of my countrymen by pitting them in a hypothetical and unsupportable 'what if' scenario is disrespectful and smacks of thinly veiled bigotry.
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Chairboy,
We have been speaking hypothetically since this thread was begun. If you can refrain from your sneering tone, I and others would be willing to listen to your thoughts. Otherwise, you're just coming across as an ass.
Shuckins/Leggern
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Originally posted by lazs2
I hold out hope for him tho.
lazs
And I for you.
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Originally posted by Shuckins
Chairboy,
We have been speaking hypothetically since this thread was begun. If you can refrain from your sneering tone, I and others would be willing to listen to your thoughts. Otherwise, you're just coming across as an ass.
Shuckins/Leggern
What type of response from me would you accept as appropriate, then?
"Yep, we're all a bunch of pansies compared to those that lived in the US during the years encompassing World War II"?
If that's all you'll accept, then sir, I cannot accomodate you.
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"my countrymen" "thinly veiled bigotry"
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
You use that as an excuse for a cheap shot at a generation you and yours cannot hold a candle to.
I find no bigotry in it at all. And I'm a citizen, by birth. Not to mention a "baby boomer".
The average citizen/sheep of 'generation x" and the last of the "baby boomers" is not cut from the same cloth as those of my parents generation. Those people were simply made of sterner stuff, tempered in the forge of the Great Depression, World War II, and the Korean War.
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Thought provoking question, and impossible to speculate on without the real thing. A better question might be...Could today's generation/executive authority cope with a war the magnitude of WWII? I would have to qualify my answer first by basing it on the fact that a war like that is not business as usual.
Everything was rationed back then. Some things were very difficult to get...tires for example. You were allowed one set of tires for the duration. Even the black market couldn't supply tires.
Censorship was in effect. WWII was a spy war. I doubt game shows like Wheel of Fortune would be allowed to air, much less games like Aces High or computer forum boards of any kind. If they did, they would be strictly regulated by federal agencies. Excercising freedom of speech would be at your own risk I would think.
Without gasoline or tires though, where would you go? Computer activities involving the Internet would be out. There'd probably not be much to do unless you wanted to stay home. No matter what you decided to do, it would involve hard work and personal sacrifice of some kind.
The main difference between then and now, is back then you didn't hear as much putting down of one's own country. Most criticism during war time was directed at the enemy, and did not focus on our own shortcomings. Winning WWII was serious business. Defeat was not an option for the Allies.
If you're asking, would today's generation have what it takes to deal with WWII by today's standards, I say don't judge this generation by what you read on this forum board. I think they would be more than up to the task. I hope they never have to do it.
The ones having a tough time would be the Baby Boomers I think. I won't speak for others, but the older I get, the more I think about acquiring nice things and personal comfort. This is misguided thinking, I admit..
You can't go back. I believe though, there would be a drastic change in attitude if WWIII happened.
Everything depends on the situation, which can and does change. The question is about as difficult to answer as "What would you do if.....?"
Until it happens, no one knows.
Les
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
"my countrymen" "thinly veiled bigotry"
You use that as an excuse for a cheap shot at a generation you and yours cannot hold a candle to.
Actually, I'm taking a shot at people who sneer at the current generation and make sweeping generatlizations about how weak we are compared to our forefathers. I have nothing but respect for my parents and grandparents that lived and fought through that period.
As for the rest of your message, you just confirm my opinion about your bigotry. Everyone has opinions, and mine means something only to me, but, there you are.
I agree with Leslie's sentiments, I feel it represents my views as well, for the record.
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akwulf... you want to compare afghanastan.. that is fine but you must realize that is a war that is pretty much fought with our special forces.. our spartans. they have been culled from society and beaten into a shape resembling several generations back.
look at the physical condition of the average American today compared to the 40's.. They may have died younger from bad nutrition and bad health care but they were very fit in their younger days.
They didn't sit in front of the TV or puter and they didn't have a "safety net" so they had to work... a large portion of those kids first shoes were the ones the Army gave em.
lazs
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what chairboy and some of the others are upset about is the fact that the more politicaly correct and socialist we get the weaker we get.. to admit that socialism is not working in (at least) this respect, is too much for them.
But cheer up... it isn't socialism that is making us weak per se.. it is the combination of the wealth from the remaoins of capitalism and the new destructive socialism.. chairboy need not worry ... once we are as poor as true socialist countries like the Soviet union... we will toughen up again. Being poor is good for the soul and body I guess. I mean... look how tough the russians were against the nazis... little rough to be a russian soldier then but if you survived...
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
akwulf... you want to compare afghanastan.. that is fine but you must realize that is a war that is pretty much fought with our special forces.. our spartans. they have been culled from society and beaten into a shape resembling several generations back.
look at the physical condition of the average American today compared to the 40's.. They may have died younger from bad nutrition and bad health care but they were very fit in their younger days.
They didn't sit in front of the TV or puter and they didn't have a "safety net" so they had to work... a large portion of those kids first shoes were the ones the Army gave em.
lazs
Agree with you there, 100% Lazs.
Ravs
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My Dad was in WWII Lazs. I asked him one time, if we had to be conquered by either the Nazis or the Russians, and effectively be under their rule. He said he'd rather be a Nazi...that the Communists were worse.
I know that seems shocking, but that's what he said. And I believe that was the way Americans felt about Russia in those days. That Nazi Germany was not as bad as Communist Russia. Communism was a greater evil.
Les
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Originally posted by lazs2
what chairboy and some of the others are upset about is the fact that the more politicaly correct and socialist we get the weaker we get.. to admit that socialism is not working in (at least) this respect, is too much for them.
Now I'm a communist for having the gall to suggest that my generation could rise to the occasion?
What depths of self loathing lead you to this conclusion? Why can't you accept the possibility that todays US citizens are more then a 15 second sound byte on CNN? Has the media really brainwashed you so much that you believe it to accurately represent the country as spineless? Are you really that much a tool of the biased media that you accept their spoonfed, sensationalistic skew of american life? That's pretty sad.
Now that you've called me a socialist lover, might I suggest that you follow it up with either pedophile, terrorist, or tax & spend democrat? Your brush seems pretty indiscriminate, I look forward to hearing your next attack. If my faith in my fellow citizen is so offensive to you, it's gotta be one of those. Or maybe you'll just call me naive? It must be frustrating for you when someone stands up for his country instead of joining in this simultaneously self hating and self congratulatory attack.
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We may not be as tough as our Granddaddies were, but we can still beat the French.
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I was comparing Afghanistan and the will of our country to WWII and the will of our country.
Not who is doing the fighting.
But, if you want to get into fitness - I'd wager a guess the majority of obese people are in their 30s and 40s, not in their teens and 20s.
-SW
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Originally posted by capt. apathy
you forgot one Rip-
Dec, 7 1941,
Japan attacks Pearl Harbor, Bush declares war on Korea, stating "we can't let these attacks go un-answered"
Ahh we started by attacking Germany, what link did they have to 12/7/41?
Lets see a Democrat attacked in the other direction (E) instead of to Japan, I wonder how the press would have spun that?
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Dec 11, 1941 Germany declares war on the United States.
-SW
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Originally posted by Shuckins
My premise is that the modern populace, if transplanted to the time of Pearl Harbor, would not have had the stomach to sustain the type of casualties necessary to win that conflict.
Disagree.
You are basing your premise on the perspective of negative media reporting, that the current "generation" is soft because of the griping about us torturing prisoners and suffering setbacks in Iraq. As said above, resolve is the issue. We were angry at the Taliban and united as a country. I don't think any of us would have said no if asked to go to avenge the atrocity of 9/11.
I don't think any of us would say no to defending our shores from direct, deliberate attack from another nation state either. Iraq on the other hand, defies resolve except from the raving hawks here and elsewhere. We are not united as a country.
Using Iraq as the basis of judgement upon a whole "generation" is erroneous.
my .02
h
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'We may not be as tough as our Granddaddies were, but we can still beat the French.'
__________________
airhead... I bet even the french could whp chairboy.
lazs
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A lot of good discussions. There's no doubt the depression generation was hardened by the experience. But... five years after WW2 there was the Korean War, which was hardly championed by the majority of America's Greatest Generation. Here's a good blurb on the homefront:
The American home front during the Korean War was far different. Following so close on the heels of World War II, the Korean War was not a popular war. Those who had experienced the hardships of the previous war were sick and tired of sacrifice, both in terms of sons lost in battle, as well as doing without and making do because there was a war going on. The president of the United States didn’t even want to mention the word “war”, so he called America’s involvement in the Korean hostilities a “police action.” This misnomer caused apathy among the public, so much so that generally only those families who had someone directly involved in the war actually cared that a war was, indeed, going on. “Where have you been, Mac?” was the question of the day when a veteran returned home from Korea. Then and now, the American people had no understanding of the significance of the Korean War, nor did they understand the horrors that were taking place in it or the hardships that our servicemen and women had to endure while serving in Korea.
If you’ve seen the Jimmy Stewart film “Strategic Air Command,” then you’ve seen an illustration of a similar resistance from members of the generation to being reactivated for the cold war mission. It’s one of the core messages of the film.
I just think Americans have a history of not going to war easily and will only spend the blood of their sons and now daughters willingly if the cause is clear and in some direct, easy to understand way measures up to the sacrifice expected. Hell, as it's been pointed out here, without the attack on Pearl harbor AND Germany's declaration of war on the US, we may never have become involved in WW2.
Charon
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Originally posted by lazs2
airhead... I bet even the french could whp chairboy.
lazs
Hey lazs, are you confusing me with someone else? I'm a card carrying NRA member, I love liberty and my country, and I don't suffer fools gladly. I own two small businesses and I've taught myself electronics and mechanical skills because my high school didn't have funding for either.
Your last comment plus the suggestion that I'm some sort of socialist doesn't make sense, is this a case of mistaken identity? Or do you just throw mud at people you disagree with?
If you're just making fun, that's cool, because I've done the same to you and your "fluffer vs. fighter' politics, but I just want to understand the context better.
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Could you see people today if they were handed ration booklets and told they could only have so much gas, meat, etc.? The public would raise holy hell. Could you see a mother raising her children for 3-4 years by herself without marching on a government building to try and get her husband sent home? My mom raised three kids by herself from 42-45 while my dad was away and she didn't complain one bit. A long protracted war would never happen unless someone attacked U.S. soil in force.
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chair.. I was just messing with you. I have followed your posts in the past but.. you seemed really defensive about the comparison between the WWII generation and todays soo...
Believe me.. the same was made of them and mine but I got to admit there is a lot of truth to it... they simply expected less from life. They also had beliefe systems that, while not allways maybe 100% correct, served them well.
The biggest difference tho between them and even my generation is that they took more responsibility for their own actions... It wasn't someone elses fault that needed to be sued.. I believe that earlier generations than them were too far the other way and concerned too much with mere survival.
It is apparent to me that the pendulum has swung too much the other way and we are pretty spoiled lot, my generation and yours.
It's a good life these days but we can't hold a candle to the greatest generation for their sacrafice and courage.
lazs
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Originally posted by Shuckins
...by our current generation and with our present Congress and Executive Administration in charge? How would they have reacted to the military disasters of early 1942?
Shuckins/Leggern
I dont know. But it certainly could not have been won by the current administration.
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When I was a kid, adults used to bore me to tears with their tedious
diatribes about how hard things were when they were growing up. What with
walking twenty-five miles to school every morning uphill both ways through
year 'round blizzards carrying their younger siblings on their backs. To
their one-room schoolhouse where they maintained a straight-A average,
despite their full-time, after-school, job at the local textile mill (where
they worked for 35 cents an hour just to help keep their family from
starving to death!).
And I remember promising myself that when I grew up there was no way
in hell I was going to lay a bunch of crap like that on kids about how hard I
had it and how easy they've got it!
However....
Now that I've reached the ripe old age of thirty-five, I can't help but look around and notice the youth of today. You've got it so F’n easy! I mean, compared to my childhood, you live in a damned Utopia! And I hate to say it but you kids today don't know how good you've got it!
I mean, when I was a kid we didn't have The Internet. We wanted to know something, we had to go to the damned library and look it up ourselves!
And there was no email! We had to actually write somebody a letter-with a pen! then you had to walk all the way across the street and put it in the F’n mailbox and it would take like a week to get there!
And there were no MP3s or Napsters! You wanted to steal music, you had to go to the damned record store and shoplift it yourself! Or we had to wait around all day to tape it off the radio and the DJ'd usually talk over the beginning and screw it all up!
You want to hear about hardship? You couldn't just download porn! You had to bribe some homeless dude to buy you a copy of "Hustler" at the 7-11! It was either that or jackoff to the lingerie section of the JC Penney catalog!
Those were your options! We didn't have fancy crap like Call Waiting! If you were on the phone and somebody else called they got a busy signal! And we didn't have fancy Caller ID Boxes either! When the phone rang, you had no idea who it was it could be your boss, your mom, a collections agent, your drug dealer, you didn't know!!! You just had to pick it up and take your
chances, mister!
And we didn't have any fancy Sony Playstation video-games with high-resolution 3-D graphics! We had the Atari 2600! With games like "Space Invaders" and "Asteroids" and the graphics sucked ass! Your guy was a little square! You had to use your imagination!
And there were no multiple levels or screens, it was just one screen forever! You could never win, the game just kept getting harder and faster until you died! Just like LIFE!
When you went to the movie theater there no such thing as stadium seating! All the seats were the same height! A tall guy sat in front of you, you were screwed!
And sure, we had cable television, but back then that was only like 20 channels and there was no onscreen menu! You had to use a little book called a TV Guide to find out what was on! And there was no Cartoon Network! You could only get cartoons on Saturday morning... ...D'ya hear what the hell I'm saying!?! We had to wait ALL WEEK, you spoiled little bastards!
That's exactly what I'm talking about! You kids today have got it too easy, You're spoiled.
I swear to God! You guys wouldn't last five minutes back in 1984!!
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Bravo!!!!
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Apathy, since I'm 16 years older than you, I had it even tougher. Our first TV was B&W and you had to get up to change the channels and there were only 4 or 5 stations you could get. There was no FM radio and the phones all had dials, not push buttons. Out of all the schools I attended I never took the bus or drove a car(even in high school). MickyDs was the "only" fast food resturant in our town and there was no home delivery of pizza. There were no video games of any sort, only pinball machines at the bowling alley. Foosball hadn't even been evented yet. So, yes, the kids of today are spoiled, and in my opinion, the majority of them don't have any respect for anything or anyone. Don't get me wrong, there are a "few" good kids out there.
;)
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actually I can't take credit for that rant. a friend of mine sent it to me about 5 years ago.
cable was available when I was a kid (moved out in 84), but not at our house.
we had a remote though, well my dad did. he'd call me into the room and tell me to change the channel.
we also lived right on the edge of our school district. so I went to school in one town but all of our untiles where from the next towns service district. not a problem for most things but the only friends who's houses I could call (without long distance charges) were the ones who's houses I could see from the back porch.
I don't feel I had it hard. I had a lot of work to do (3+ hours Sun-Fri, 7am to 4pm on most Saturdays). but I see some of the crap my kids have had to go through, and I don't envy them a bit.
life is complicated for kids now, to many rules, regulations or committees getting involved. it was simpler when I was a kid, starting to get complicated, more complicated than it was for my father, but nothing like my kid has to deal with.
you have girls being suspended on drug charges for bringing mydol in their purse, you have D.A.R.E. programs telling kids they are hero's if they talk publicly about their parents private life. we have 18yr old kids in our state penn who are doing 7 years for a mutually instigated fist-fight where neither party pressed charges(I guess the guy I know is 22 now, only 3 more years until he gets out).
when I was a kid, as long as what you were doing didn't cause any problems for other people (or at least if they weren't so mad that dad had to hear about it), you where pretty much OK. life was fairly straight forward, don't let your life be a problem for anyone else, work hard, and take care of your family before you worry about what you'd like. I would love to get back to a place (maybe there never was a place, but I was just too young to know it) were that was enough. were a guy could be a stand-up guy and still get ahead. seems like lately only the bellybutton kissers and political types get ahead anymore. honesty and directness are serious career liability's, even in construction trades, which I was initially drawn too because it was one of the few work opportunities left were you're worth was judged on your work and your character, and not so much on who you played golf with or what clubs you belong to.
I grew up in the last few days of the "John Wayne code"-
I won't be wronged
I won't be insulted
and I won't be laid a hand on
I don't do these things to other men, and I won't tolerate them being done to me.
it seemed a reasonable code, and if somebody violated it, it was reasonable grounds to kick their ass. you'd do it, and stay there until the cops or the teachers showed up. you'd admit to it and tell them why. then that would be the end of it. he had it coming after all, "probably good for him, he might learn some manners along the way".
today you'd do serious time in prison for enforcing 'the code'.
I'd take extra work and physical discomfort, to do away with all the crap entangling our lives today. I think all things totaled, grampa had it easier than my kid.
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One thing I'd like to see changed in schools are the dress codes. Kids can pretty much wear what they want in public schools as long as they're not naked or grossly offending anyone. I believe lax dress codes gives kids the idea that they can do what they want. When I was in school teachers could swat kids with paddles(which I don't entirely agree with)and that put the "fear of life" into most of them and they didn't cross the line at school. Now if you swatted a kid you'd probably end up in prison for 1st degree assault.
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Originally posted by lazs2
chair.. I was just messing with you. I have followed your posts in the past but.. you seemed really defensive about the comparison between the WWII generation and todays soo...
Believe me.. the same was made of them and mine but I got to admit there is a lot of truth to it... they simply expected less from life. They also had beliefe systems that, while not allways maybe 100% correct, served them well.
The biggest difference tho between them and even my generation is that they took more responsibility for their own actions... It wasn't someone elses fault that needed to be sued.. I believe that earlier generations than them were too far the other way and concerned too much with mere survival.
It is apparent to me that the pendulum has swung too much the other way and we are pretty spoiled lot, my generation and yours.
It's a good life these days but we can't hold a candle to the greatest generation for their sacrafice and courage.
lazs
Good answer, Lazs- so no wonder my wife held your jacket instead of mine when we got in that fight.
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Actually we would not of went to war.
Japan had no oil, they had to import all of theirs, so there would of been no interest there.
Germany had to conquer territory to get oil. Well, come to think of it, the present administration might have gone to war with Germany to get ahold of the oil fields that Germany posessed.
Who knows, maybe they could have Germany decrease production or decrease export so they could of raised gas prices to ensure bigger profits for the oil companies.
Huh? Good Question!
:)
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We didn't need to war on Germany for the oil, we had just found it in Arabia.
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I think our current soldiers could Handle it.
But I dont think our current general population has the intestonal fortitude for it.
We've now been spoiled by two relatively short wars With relatively fw casualties. Even now.
And while every life lost is tragic the numbers currently lost wouldnt even have made the news during vietnam let alone WWII.
And already its being labled by some as a quagmire.
Imagine if the casualties of that war were happeneing today What would happen if after 4 years of war we lost the same 295,000 today that we lost in WWII the outcry that would arise.
Not to mention the shortages of everything from fuel to food for the war effort.
They were the "We" generation. We or at l;east most of us are the "Me" generation. And we want everything to be done right now including our wars.