Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: quig on June 01, 2004, 09:15:38 AM
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I downloaded America's Army and was about to install it when I found this gem in the license agreement for the PunkBuster software that comes bundled with it:
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/172_1086097552_punky1.jpg)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/172_1086097651_puny2.jpg)
I don't really think I have any use for this crap.
Anyone know how to go about installing the game without installing this also? The license agreement says it's optional, but the game wouldn't install when I clicked 'Cancel' (not that I expected it to).
Or maybe there is a way to turn it off in-game?
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Is your objection to the fact you're being forced to install the anti-cheating tool? Or that it might take screenshots of your playing when you're suspected of cheating and upload them to the server?
If the invasiveness was outside the game (eg, screenshots of non-gameplay or running when the game was deactivated), I would totally agree, but the scope of this is limited to preventing cheaters who are playing, as far as I can see.
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Cheating is out of control in Americas Army. The aimbots recoilless see through fog super soldiers totally ruin the game. Punkbuster is doing everything it can to prevent cheating. There is always someone finding a way tho. All official servers require PB. Matter of fact most servers require PB.
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I stopped playing BF1942 because of all the cheating...aim bots, map hacks etc.
When they forced PB on everyone it made the game enjoyable again.
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If you have sensitive copyright files on your computer and Punkbuster were to take them and share them, they would be sooo in trouble. There licensing agreement is soley to search your HD for cheat software / hardware, that is the purpose plain and simple. Lastly, if you keep any files that are that sensitive permanently on your HD, you're a fool to begin with.
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Looks to me as if someone is upset he can't cheat or not have the option to with out being caught. :)
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Guys, I think we are missing the point here :)
I just want to install and play the game offline and see if I like it. Without the PunkBuster software.
Later, if the game is good enough and I HAVE to put PunkBuster on my system to play online, I might do it.
For now I just want to try out the game.
I don't know anything about the company that makes PunkBuster... and I just don't feel like turning them loose with my machine.
No sensitive info and no porn on this computer.
Now... anyone know how to install America's Army without installing PunkBuster? :D
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Originally posted by MoRphEuS
Looks to me as if someone is upset he can't cheat or not have the option to with out being caught. :)
I don't have the brains or patients to cheat.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Is your objection to the fact you're being forced to install the anti-cheating tool? Or that it might take screenshots of your playing when you're suspected of cheating and upload them to the server?
If the invasiveness was outside the game (eg, screenshots of non-gameplay or running when the game was deactivated), I would totally agree, but the scope of this is limited to preventing cheaters who are playing, as far as I can see.
this is likely the part that bothers him. it does me too.
Licensee understands that PunkBuster software inspects and reports information about the computer on
Which it is installed to other connected computers and Licensee agrees to allow PunkBuster
Software to inspect and report such information about the computer on which licensee installs
PunkBuster software.
Licensee understands and agrees that the information that may be
inspected and reported by PunkBuster software includes, but is not limited to, devices and any
files residing on the hard-drive and in the memory of the computer on which PunkBuster
software is installed.
I'm no lawyer but it sounds to me you just gave them free access to your system. anything they want to know about it they can look, and not just send it to the company who you have this agreement with but also "other connected computers". why would they need access to (but not limited to) your whole hard-drive? seems they could still get the job done if they limited their invasion of your system to files that are in use while you are connected to the game.
the wording of this agreement gives them to much access and surrenders more of your privacy than necessary to accomplish their goals.
what would happen if they decided to increase their revenue by writing into their code an access for a data mining company to connect to games in play and harvest info off of the computers while the game is running?
legally would there be anything you could do about it? as I read the form there isn't. you've given permission to check anything on your system and share it with any computer connected to you through their software.
also, as to your last paragraph. the software may only run while the game is playing, but I see nothing in the wording of this agreement that limits they type of data harvested to information relevant to game-play.
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I love how people just assume things. Alot of people have problems with Punkbuster accessing thier systems at will. With AA its a joke. Consider that game a waste of space on your HDD.
I came back to the game after 5 months and decided to give it a try. My 1st 3 servers I tried, I find kids duping weapons like mad. Logged and deleted.
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no you cant not install without getting PB, its built into the game...what you can do however is only play on servers athat dont use PB, if your that worried about the anti cheat software (wich has been programmed to scan only the files in the AA folder) going over your harddrive and detecting what sort of porno you were watching last night...
as for cheating in AA i can honestly say i have only seen someone cheating once or twice (and only since homelan stopped hosting)...the trick is to play only on clan servers, since those usually have an admin monitoring and cheaters generally avoid them as it doesnt get them more of the "honour" points...
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Originally posted by vorticon
(wich has been programmed to scan only the files in the AA folder)
^^ That is not what their agreement says.
You told me what I wanted to know anyhow.
Thanks.
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It's my experience that legal agreements are usually as wide spread as possible, not as tight as needed, to perform a 'CYA' function. If they said 'PunkBuster will only scan your game directory', then some wag would
a. write a cheat tool that sits outside the directory
b. use the tool
c. get caught
d. Sue the bejeesus out of PunkBuster for proving that they exceeded the legal agreement.
e. Profit!
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agreement doesnt say that but a dev said over on there board at one point that PB does not scan the .ini files (because they dont want to waste bandwidth and time scanning those) in your folder. from this and a couple other comments i have come to the conclusion that it only scans the core game files for changes. try asking what files that its setup to scan by asking over at forums.americasarmy.com
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It's from The United States Government. What are ya worried about?
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If we can't trust the government, who CAN we trust?
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PB is the first first of things to come I would think. IMHO, the more damage done to dorks who cheat the better. I don't really give a crap if they scan my entire HD(s) and download the content on them. The game is free and PB is a requirement, no getting around it. Ya either use it.. or ya don't play. Whats the fuss?
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1984
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Originally posted by Nwbie
1984
:rolleyes: Ya, except you have a perfectly open choice, as well as a CONTRACT.
Sheesh...
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Ive been playing COD and the cheating scumbags made PB a needed thing.If you cant cheat anymore well to fuggin bad for you.PB ONLY looks for cheats.Anyone with an issue with PB is obviously the PUNK there looking for.My 2 cents.
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If you would give up you privacy to play America's Army, you have issues.
They couldn't give that game to me :)
If cheating is that big of a damn deal, the guys who make the original game should do something to stop it.
PunkBuster is spyware, plain and simple.
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Quig don't worry about installing PB. PB has been used for years with some games. One right off the top of my head that I can remember is Castle Wolfenstien. They are a legit company and they are only looking for cracked software that directly links to the AA folders.
This is so no one can run an external program outside of the AA folders and still have it affect the game. This was a real issue with the Delta Force series. Folks would run external based programs that would basically affect game play when you started them and then started Delta Force.
Americas Army in itself is free so in reality they are giving it to you. Their is no obligations to playing that game what so ever. It was designed and built for US Army for training troops and is now out to the public. It has been for some time now. I played it well over a year ago when I was into the FPS Delta Force series. I even downloaded the newest version recently and played it. It has servers that require punkbuster running to play in them. They also have servers that are purely cheat servers.
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Originally posted by quig
If you would give up you privacy to play America's Army, you have issues.
ROFL!!!.... actually, it's just that I have nothing to hide. Nor do I have nightmares of armband wearing, jackbooted goose-stepping Homeland Security enforcers busting in on me an dragging me off for interrogation hehe. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Cobra412
Quig don't worry about installing PB. PB has been used for years with some games. One right off the top of my head that I can remember is Castle Wolfenstien. They are a legit company and they are only looking for cracked software that directly links to the AA folders.
This is so no one can run an external program outside of the AA folders and still have it affect the game. This was a real issue with the Delta Force series. Folks would run external based programs that would basically affect game play when you started them and then started Delta Force.
Americas Army in itself is free so in reality they are giving it to you. Their is no obligations to playing that game what so ever. It was designed and built for US Army for training troops and is now out to the public. It has been for some time now. I played it well over a year ago when I was into the FPS Delta Force series. I even downloaded the newest version recently and played it. It has servers that require punkbuster running to play in them. They also have servers that are purely cheat servers.
Oh C'MON Cobra!! Don't you know PB is only legit on the outside!! They also have a super sekret skworl dept, from there... if you know the right people you can make direct links to the CIA, FBI and ASHCROFTS OFFICE!!! <<<< works better lol.
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Castle wolf is one program running PB.Call of Duty now has it to due to the public out cry about the cheats.PB has nothing you need to worry about.All its going to do is weed out the known hacks.Someone can STII hack the game as long as its a private cheat that PB doesnt know about but once it starts to run the rounds on the web,PB will eventualy catch it.PB is a safe,and effective way to stop others from ruining your fun.Its not some K.A.O.S. plan to take over the world.
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Originally posted by Tumor
Oh C'MON Cobra!! Don't you know PB is only legit on the outside!! They also have a super sekret skworl dept, from there... if you know the right people you can make direct links to the CIA, FBI and ASHCROFTS OFFICE!!! <<<< works better lol.
Look man, already said I have nothing to hide. I use this computer for the games. The other one for the porn.
Put down your crack pipe. Read the words that have been written.
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Cobra...
You have been hijacked that long now??? :)
I'll check into them. Might get to play after all.
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Originally posted by rpm371
It's from The United States Government. What are ya worried about?
Let's wait for couple more patriot act amendments :D
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Free software isn't so free afterall. LOL.
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Put down the crack pipe......:rofl
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Truthfully speaking.. if AA would be spying etc. etc., I'm sure there would been already a media coverage over it.
Do not understimate the conspiracy theorists - they surely would do everything possible to find out everything about AA.
...but so far I haven't heard the whine.
Also I have hard time believing Punkbuster would do anything "illegitimate" on your computer, considering the circumstances it's development began in first place.
It'd be also a major setback for it's principles and several gaming communities, if someone would find out it's doing MORE than supposed to.
That legal stuff is just against those silly law suits by every 13yr ol' cheater and their mommas.
IMO those who are definately caught from cheating, should be punished by the law - after all in most cases they are breaking the end user license agreement and in wide spread cases harming the business, let alone the harm caused to honest players. (Read; many people who did not play HL because of wide spread cheating)
Unfortunately it is too much asked, considering the nature of 'crime' - would probably cost more to act against them....
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Originally posted by quig
Look man, already said I have nothing to hide. I use this computer for the games. The other one for the porn.
.....and I have issues :aok Wazzamatta quiq? Fraid the computer monitor can SEE YOU TOO? lol
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Originally posted by Fishu
Truthfully speaking.. if AA would be spying etc. etc., I'm sure there would been already a media coverage over it.
Do not understimate the conspiracy theorists - they surely would do everything possible to find out everything about AA.
...but so far I haven't heard the whine.
me either.
but why do they need a user-agreement that gives them free access to anything on your hard-drive?
if they have no interest in snooping around (or reserving the option to do it in the future) and are only interested in protecting game play, they could simply change this-
Licensee understands and agrees that the information that may be inspected and reported by PunkBuster software includes, but is not limited to, devices and any files residing on the hard-drive and in the memory of the computer on which PunkBuster software is installed.
to this-
Licensee understands and agrees that the information that may be
inspected and reported by PunkBuster software includes, devices and any files residing on the hard-drive and in the memory of the computer that are in use while a PunkBuster protected game is in play.
they may not be overstepping reasonable privacy boundaries at this time. but you have already given your OK to it if they ever decide they want to.
it seems to me if I were looking to use a program like that for spy-ware purposes, I'd start out not over-stepping my bounds but getting people to sign off on permission. then after my program was required for a significant % of on-line gaming I'd start mining the info from peoples computers. the life of your company would be fairly short lived if you had people reporting abuses while you were only used on one or 2 games.
once your product is required for a significant share of the gaming market you could go ahead and exercise your full rights in the user agreement. people had agreed to the invasions so there is nothing they could do legally to retaliate and they could only choose to allow your invasions to continue or not play on-line.
the only way to stop something like this is to catch it before the software is wide spread, and refuse to use it until they agree to a more restrictive user agreement.
I missed that line in the user agreement when I installed the game, and didn't see it until it was posted here. at that point I un installed the game and won't be playing it again until PB changes the wording of their agreement. I as a good game but not worth trading your privacy for.
anything you allow to go wrong will go wrong.
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You should probably get rid of your web browser, then, because there's nothing to stop Microsoft or Netscape or Opera from changing their browser to do the same stuff, their legal agreements have equally overreaching texts.
If you decide not to play a game because it has an anti-cheating program, that's your own decision. Rationalizing that it's because you're afraid they'll turn into a harvester is inconsistent unless you apply the same criteria to every other program on your system (which all have gotchas like that or of equivalent concern) otherwise your motivations become suspect.
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Originally posted by capt. apathy
me either.
but why do they need a user-agreement that gives them free access to anything on your hard-drive?
Pongo, seriously... I see and understand your point. But... your making a big deal about a company that is telling you up front that you will have to agree to ~their~ terms in order to play the game, and included in ~their~ terms, you give them access to your drive/memory/files etc. The point is, they aren't hiding anything, and they are telling you the specific purpose of the program. What's the big deal? I'm not making any accusatory statements by saying that if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear. Not to mention, the wording makes it at least fairly clear of what the program is looking for. I have no doubt you could save word doc's entirely based on anti-govt, terrorist supporting, desention, revolutionary wording and NOBODY would be any wiser for it with PB running full tilt in the background (err, nobody would know because of PB that is).