Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: qts on March 05, 2000, 06:46:00 AM
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Particularly the Spitfire XIV and the Mosquito fighter / fighter-bomber.
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... and the Mossie IV of course, the unarmed bomber version. The Typhoon is coming, the Lancaster is on the way I read, not bad.
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qts is right about the Spitfire XIV though, we need a late war fighter. The Typhoon was a failed 1941 fighter, which still leaves us with the 1942 Spitfire IX. The Lancaster is good though, its about time one of these online sims recognized the fact that there was an RAF Bomber Command.
If you need an example of why we need a late war Spitfire, read the "Your Favorite Airplane?" thread ( http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/002123.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/002123.html) ) to get an idea of what people like. The Spit is way down at the bottom of the list. Why? Because it is WAY outperformed by the '44 stuff the USAAF has (not to mention the N1K, upgraded Fw and 109)
Sisu
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i disagree Karnak. the 14 climbs better than the 51. turns better than the 47. and is as fast as the 38. but then, this is all my experience from the WB version. as soon as the 51 in WB came out, i left my spit9 for the 14.
apples and oranges..eh...funny thing is, i can gain on the 51s in AH that i cood never gain on in WB with my 9...
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thats great having the spit XIV and all but whats the point of modelling all these different fighters that all have a weakness if the spit 14 modelled correctly has none?
you know all but the hardcore fans of their own aircraft would be in the spit 14 because nothing but a spit 14 could kill them. meanwhile there would be much nashing of teeth and wailing of the unterplane crowd.
how would this affect gameplay? not good for variety thats for sure.
and I hate spitfires, I hate fighting them and I hate flying them. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Well because of your post I did some reading on the Mosquito fighter/bomber.Up to now I thought it was used primarily for anti-shipping roles.I stand corrected.With the upcoming halftracks and tanks I think the Mosquito FB VI would be a great addition with it's 57mm cannon and 4000lb bombload.That cannon would make quick work of armored vehicles haha (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I still don't care much for the molded plywood skin though but I reckon this would account for it's great speed.So take the good with the bad.
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Mossie was an incredibly versatile (and succesful plane) by including it(with appropriate varients/load outs)HTC would kill a few birds with one stone (i.e. extra buff extra grounnd attack all in one)
[This message has been edited by jmccaul (edited 03-05-2000).]
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mossie would be a nice addition but xiv is just too deadly compared to any other plane in AH
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Citabria - There are a few planes that can run from the Spit XIV, so as long as we have those I don't see a problem with "Griffon Mania".
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Someday, I'm sure AH will have huge planeset that will rival the other online ACM sims.
Right now, I'd like to see a bit of work on the rest of the infrastructure. The old strat subject.
Ground vehicles, ground targets (bridges?), stuff that needs to be killed to help your side. Like halting the advance of AI ground forces or such. Give us a reason to fighter/bomb.
As for the present strat...you fly 1+ hours in a two-ship buff formation and IF both of you make it to target and IF both of you hit HQ, the dar goes down for a whopping 30 minutes. Probably less than half the time it took you to get there. Most likely you won't make it back, either.
The result is that this game is GOING UP. Even fighters are now climbing to 30K. There's no real reason to be down, is there?
The acks will shred you and there aren't any worthwhile jabo targets..in fact jabo's really can't affect strat much at all.
I'd like to see some work in these areas before we inflate the plane set.
Just my .02
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yes funked, but the p38 can not (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by Toad:
Someday, I'm sure AH will have huge planeset that will rival the other online ACM sims.
Right now, I'd like to see a bit of work on the rest of the infrastructure. The old strat subject.
I concur Toadie. If you add later varients it will unbalance the arena even more requiring more plane development to offset the problem.
Would like to see more emphasis on strategy. More strat may even offset some of the "gang-banging."
K1
[This message has been edited by Karaya One (edited 03-06-2000).]
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Yes, but they've ALREADY added later variants for the German, American and Japanese aircraft. The Brits have 1942 tech. If you guys had P-40s, P-39s, P-51As, early 109Gs and an A6M2 we wouldn't be asking for this and you guys would be complaining about YOUR aircraft selection. Its about being competitive, and not hearing some 15 year old, never read a history book, punk telling you how British aircraft were awful because he's basing his knowlege on these sims.
Sisu
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But British aircraft WERE awful... looking. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Karnak-
I know you can't be saying the Spitfire IX isn't competitive in this arena? Please, tell me what I'm missing, because to me the Spitfire is the fighter to beat.
By all means, call for the Spitfire XIV. I simply see no basis for using the "the Spit IX is uncompetitive" argument. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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Originally posted by Karnak:
Yes, but they've ALREADY added later variants for the German, American and Japanese aircraft. The Brits have 1942 tech. {SNIP}
Sisu
Well, at this point, early varients would only be usefull for a rolling plane set (RPS). I am not sure what HT has in mind for historical match-ups etc.. but there is already a good foundation of planes in the game. Introducing a later varient spit would only cause people to want a Dora etc..
My reason for coming to AH was the promise of a better FM coupled with better strategy than WB's.
Would hate to see the past repeat itself.
K1
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Oh...i hear Big Blue weeping in the Hanger (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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Naaah, Torque.
If they pull for the Spit XIV, I'll pull for my P-47M and you can pull for the F4U-4, and then All my other Luftwaffle friends can pull for the TA-152.
See how that works?
Beautiful man, just beautiful (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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-Rebel
JG2 "Richtofen"
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Originally posted by Karnak:
If you need an example of why we need a late war Spitfire, read the "Your Favorite Airplane?" thread (
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/002123.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/002123.html) ) to get an idea of what people like. The Spit is way down at the
bottom of the list. Why? Because it is WAY outperformed by the '44 stuff the USAAF has (not to mention the N1K, upgraded Fw190 and 109)
Karnak,the main reason the spit has those record is because it has been largely used as TnB, and Base defence, while it is much better in a E-fighter role. In a TnB you can kill someone, but his mate will kill you later. In Base defence you are vultched, killed low on E and vultched again. The SpitIX is WAY better as an E-fighter and I see many TnBers and not so many BnZers on spits. And of course, If you TnB in a Spit you'll die soon...and people dont like dying. I use Spits a lot. I use them as E-fighters (yeah, the SpitV also CAN BE used as E-fighter...more or less (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)). If yah dont believe me, look at my records: I fly A LOT on them. I Like it a lot, but my favorite will be ALWAYS the Fw190 (even this poor A-8). So you haven't a valid argument here. Spit IX is NICE!.
IMO Spit IX is the best overall fighter on the arena. Not the best in any special role but capable in all of them. Even is a little overmodelled (top speed is very high).
Lets see, RAF men. We, LW fighters,are in a much worse situation. The Fw190 lovers(as me) really are disgusted with the lack of a A-5.
Spit IX is a VERY capable fighter, that fighted in HUGE numbers in 1944. Spit XIV was in much few numbers, more or less the same as Fw190D-9. As the Fw190A-8 is as it is, the hardest plane to fly in AH (you can't win a co-e engagement with ANY well piloted plane in the present planeset), I think LW pilots deserve an A-5 much before than you do a SpitXIV.
And note that I say an A-5, not a D-9...190D-9 will come later.
You have 2 Spitfires, soon a Typhoon and a Lancaster. Stop whining cuz I only have a PORKED Fw190A-8 to fly in. SpitIX is wonderful to fly. Fw190A-8 is HARD to fly. Be happy with all you have (2 splendid aircraft), cuz we are in a much worse situation (a flying tank that turns, climbs and bleeds E like that...a 38 ton tank!!!).
And I repeat, I hate Russian and Japs planes, but they deserve new planes MUCH sooner than your beloved SpitXIV!!!! and even my FW190A-5 so STOP whining about this! Think in the rest of the people!.
Don't take this as a personal attack,Karnak, but Im really tired of watching "i want this I want that" when you have a NICE plane to fly (I fly a lot on Spits myself,so I know what I'm talking about). Learn to master it and stop whining, cuz there is other people who shuts up with much worse planes than your hated Spitfire IX.
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Ram, out
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
(http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/images/Ram.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 03-06-2000).]
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And I repeat, I hate Russian and Japs planes, but they deserve new planes MUCH sooner than your beloved SpitXIV!!!! and even my FW190A-5 so STOP whining about this! Think in the rest of the people!
Don't take this as a personal attack,Karnak, but Im really tired of watching "i want this I want that" when you have a NICE plane to fly (I fly a lot on Spits myself,so I know what I'm talking about). Learn to master it and stop whining, cuz there is other people who shuts up with much worse planes than your hated Spitfire IX.
Very well said RAM, and probably in a much nicer way than I would have. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
British pilots have or will have very soon 3 fighters (at least two of which will be very capable in the arena, regardless of being "1942 Tech") and their much beloved and screamed for in every other sim, the Lancaster bomber.
Personally, all this never ending crap about a Spit XIV has so turned me off on it, I will never be in favor of one.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
(http://web.mountain.net/~arringto/pics/yak3.jpg)
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 03-06-2000).]
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The RAF have 1 competitive fighter, the spit IX, and after the Typhoon comes out they will still have 1 comptitive fighter. The Typhoon is useless except for Jabo work. If the RAF had been given the Tempest instead it would have reduced some of the clamour for the XIV.
The XIV was made in greater numbers than the Dora9 and appeared much earlier, so it would be only fair to add the spit before the Dora. Having said that I would like to see the D9 added as well. It is the best choice Luftwaffe aircraft to compete with the P51.
Ram, you may have only a porked A8 but you could always try flying the 1944 109G10.
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Nashwam...NO I cant!!! ...I fly with a 2 button yoke with a little thrust stick and NO rudder pedals...How the hell am I going to fly a G-10???
And to be fair...I LOVE FW190. I like 109s but not that much. Fw190a-8 is a s**t, so I want Fw190A-5. But I dont start three threads yelling "I WANT MY FW190A-5!!!!"
and BTW, Spits XIV started to fly over France in mid 44. Fw190D-9 on September 1944. Not that difference isnt it?
and there were roughly the same numbers of D-9 and SpitsXIV builded in WWII. So numbers are the same.
and I still dont yell about a D-9. Give the Russkyi and Nippon some planes and THEN start giving us some planes more (starting from the Fw190A-5 LOL (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif))
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Ram, out
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
(http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/images/Ram.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 03-06-2000).]
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Well, I think we've all made our positions clear. So whatever they do, we'll live with it.
For what it is worth, I do think that there should be an anti-fighter version of the Fw-190. I would love to see an A6M5c and a YAK-9 and 3. My desire for the "other" aircraft has already been well stated.
Sisu
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Ok, couldn't let the thread die.... Especially after I reread this.
The Typhoon is useless except for Jabo work
Are you smary Spitfire Boys willing to put your money where your mouth is?? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
You want your Spit XIV so bad, your willing to write off the Tiffy without even flying it. Take some time to look at the plane and see what it can do before you write it off as useless. Your just upset because its not a 450mph Turn and Burn machine.
You quote pilot reports saying "sluggish and unresponsive" and such, and you immediately say its "only fit for Jabo" duty. THINK about it for a second, who was flying it? British test pilots. And what were most British pilots use to flying? Spitfires. Those same British Test pilots describe the American planes such as the P-47, F4U and the P-51 in the exact same manner. Same with the later heavier German aircraft. Nope its not a lightweight fighter like a Spitfire, but that doesn't mean it can't be an effective plane.
Ok so tell me whats the most squeaked about "should be withdrawn from the planeset", highest Kill per Death UberDweeb ride in the arena right now?????
The F4U-1C. Another plane that made alot of its fame in "jabo work".
Now lets compare the Tiffy to the -1C Hog under 15k, where most of the battles take place in the Arena. (Numbers are approximations since I am at work and don't have any references with me to cite exact numbers from)
The Tiffy has the same guns (itty bitty snapshots that kill guns)and similar ammo loads as the F4U. It has similar wingloading (general indicator of sustained turning ability) to the F4U and P-51. It has superior powerloading to both as well (acceleration/climb ability), and it has a bubble canopy that similar to the excellent visibility of the P-51. About the only advantage the F4U will have is in roll rate.
Oh and did I forget to mention that its also the fastest plane in the game down low? That at sea level its about 10 mph faster than even the P-51??
This plane doesn't have to be nimble or turn well to be a killer in the arena. It has incredible guns and is the fastest plane in the game down low. If you think that makes it "suitable only for Jabo work" then your fooling yourself. If flown correctly, with straight BnZ tactics,this plane will be a terror.
So I say again. Are you smary Spitfire Boys willing to put your money where your mouth is?? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Here's the friendly bet.
I bet that within the first two weeks of its introduction, the Tiffy will be within the top 3 in rankings in Kills/Death of all fighters in the game.
If I'm wrong, I will fly nothing but the Tiffy for two straight weeks in the arena. Which should be a horrible sentence if your right.
If I'm right, you guys agree to shutup about wanting more British planes for the next month.
Its a group bet, all or nothing.
So are you game? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
(http://web.mountain.net/~arringto/pics/yak3.jpg)
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 03-07-2000).]
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Vermillion-
I'm guessing you've sized the Tiffy up to a "T". Time will tell, but I think it is going to be a serious furball-buster. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/eek.gif)
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when you put that 500mph terror in the arena your gonna need that e you took off the p38 back (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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As useless except for Jabo work was my comment I suppose I'd better respond.
I have never flown AH online. I arrived after the beta and my phone connection is so bad I would be throwing away $25 a month considering the limited time I would be able to play. When I get my cable modem in April that will change, however.
I was under the impression, from the posts here, that the majority of arena combat took place at 20,000ft plus. Oh, and Vulching, which I understand means attacking aircraft as they respawn/take off. If I am wrong about that then I am sorry, but that is the genuine impression I get from the posts here.
I stand by the comment that the Typhoon is useless at altitude. It was originally
designed as an interceptor but was almost abandoned because of it's high altitude performance, in fact it was only kept in production initially because it could catch low level Fw190 raiders.
You are correct in pointing out the fine qualities of the Typhoon, but you neglect to mention the appaling performance at high altitude. Having said that, it is still one of my favourite aircraft and I am looking forward to flying it. The only sim I have ever played which modelled the Typhoon is EAW, which gave it such terrible compression that it is almost unable to turn above 300mph.
BTW, attacking airfields and aircraft on take-off is my definition of Jabo work. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
One final point, does anyone know what WEP pewer and system the Typhoon used? I have found at leat one source that claimed the tiffie didn't use WEP.
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Ah Nashwan, notice in my entire post I said "down low" meaning below 15,000ft (I think I even said 15k somewhere)
At least you had the courage to step forward and say something though (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
But I guess the rest of the Spit XIV crowd isn't willing to make a little wager (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
(http://web.mountain.net/~arringto/pics/yak3.jpg)
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 03-08-2000).]
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Vermillion, if the Typhoon comes out after I have joined then I think it would be safe to take you up on your bet. After all, I will be flying it extensively. That ought to push the Kill/Death ratio into negative numbers.
On the altitude point, how much of the fighting takes place low down?
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How much of the fighting takes place down low?
When you've got squadrons of Typhoons terrorising a front line airfield, a hell of a lot (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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(http://www.jtsystems.demon.co.uk/tempstruff/dumalogo.jpg)
[This message has been edited by -duma- (edited 03-08-2000).]
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Vermillion,
the Tiffie's just not my kite. I'll fly it a bit, but like many historical Spitfire pilots it'll never replace the Spit. Down low th Tiffie will be a problem, but mainly to kill, not so much to be killed by.
Fighter Command was looking to the Typhoon to replace the Spitfire in much the same way that the Spitfire had replaced the Hurricane. However, the Typhoons performance was so dismal that the Spit had to continue on as the frontline fighter. They kept the Tiffie around because of its incredible low altitude speed that allowed it to intercept low level Fw-190 nuisance raids. It turn out to be a good thing because of the lethality of the Typhoon at ground attack.
I don't begrudge you your plane though.
Sisu
[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 03-08-2000).]
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Karnak if its not your style, no problem, I can understand that. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
My only irritation was that several people were questioning the need for another new British fighter, ie the Spit XIV.
They had a point given that the Spit V (best pure dogfighter in game) was just introduced, we have the Spit IX (best E fighter in game), the Typhoon is in immediate production, and the Lancaster is the next bomber.
But all the Spit XIV proponents (not pointing the finger at you or any other singular person was a group thing) were ignoring the Spit V, talking about how the Spit IX was "1942 tech" (even tho it is quite popular and effective in the arena), and how the Typhoon was gonna suck so bad that it would only be good for its historical ground attack role.
My point of the whole little bet was to make you guys stop a minute and realize that the Tiffy is not a bad airplane and IMO will terrorize the arena to a point that it will make the F4U-1C seem like a WWI biplane.
[warning the next paragraph is not directed to any singular pilot, but to a group attitude as a whole]
The Tiffy might not be your, or any other pilot who posted here, style. But please don't distort facts to the point of being ludicrous to fit your own propaganda campaign for your pet aircraft (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Because the Tiffy should be quite capable.
I want to eventually see every plane people here have mentioned. But when the Brits currently have (or in close production) a planeset that rivals the Germans & Americans for the largest, its kinda hard to campaign for them another plane.
Right now the Japanese, Russian, and not to even mention the Italian, planesets need much more work.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
(http://web.mountain.net/~arringto/pics/yak3.jpg)
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 03-08-2000).]
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My second favorite aircraft of WWII is the A6M5c Zero. Gimme gimme gimme gimme!!!
Sisu
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Ok Karnak I can agree with that (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) After flying the Spit V in the TA the other day, I am scared to think how a Zero will perform in AH.
Oh wait, I promised Funked I'd support the "Show me the Shoki!" Ki-44 campaign too (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Oh yeah and LLBM wants the Ki-84 Frank.
Hell... just give them all to us. I bet it will only take 2 weeks. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)