Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: rpm on June 02, 2004, 01:00:49 AM
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OK NeoCons, lets see you spin THIS CBS REPORT. (http://cbs11tv.com/localnews/topstories_story_153210913.html)
Jun 1, 2004 8:07 pm US/Central
LOS ANGELES (CBS) When a forest fire shut down a major transmission line into California, cutting power supplies and raising prices, Enron energy traders celebrated, CBS News Correspondent Vince Gonzales reports.
"Burn, baby, burn. That's a beautiful thing," a trader sang about the massive fire.
Four years after California's disastrous experiment with energy deregulation, Enron energy traders can be heard – on audiotapes obtained by CBS News – gloating and praising each other as they helped bring on, and cash-in on, the Western power crisis.
"He just f---s California," says one Enron employee. "He steals money from California to the tune of about a million."
"Will you rephrase that?" asks a second employee.
"OK, he, um, he arbitrages the California market to the tune of a million bucks or two a day," replies the first.
The tapes, from Enron's West Coast trading desk, also confirm what CBS reported years ago: that in secret deals with power producers, traders deliberately drove up prices by ordering power plants shut down.
"If you took down the steamer, how long would it take to get it back up?" an Enron worker is heard saying.
"Oh, it's not something you want to just be turning on and off every hour. Let's put it that way," another says.
"Well, why don't you just go ahead and shut her down."
Officials with the Snohomish Public Utility District near Seattle received the tapes from the Justice Department.
"This is the evidence we've all been waiting for. This proves they manipulated the market," said Eric Christensen, a spokesman for the utility.
That utility, like many others, is trying to get its money back from Enron.
"They're f------g taking all the money back from you guys?" complains an Enron employee on the tapes. "All the money you guys stole from those poor grandmothers in California?"
"Yeah, grandma Millie, man"
"Yeah, now she wants her f------g money back for all the power you've charged right up, jammed right up her a------ for f------g $250 a megawatt hour."
And the tapes appear to link top Enron officials Ken Lay and Jeffrey Skilling to schemes that fueled the crisis.
"Government Affairs has to prove how valuable it is to Ken Lay and Jeff Skilling," says one trader.
"Ok."
"Do you know when you started over-scheduling load and making buckets of money on that?
Before the 2000 election, Enron employees pondered the possibilities of a Bush win.
"It'd be great. I'd love to see Ken Lay Secretary of Energy," says one Enron worker.
That didn't happen, but they were sure President Bush would fight any limits on sky-high energy prices.
"When this election comes Bush will f------g whack this s--t, man. He won't play this price-cap b------t."
Crude, but true.
"We will not take any action that makes California's problems worse and that's why I oppose price caps," said Mr. Bush on May 29, 2001.
Both the Justice Department and Enron tried to prevent the release of these tapes. Enron's lawyers argued they merely prove "that people at Enron sometimes talked like Barnacle Bill the Sailor."
Tell me again that Bush is not selling out America.
Please, Pass me the Ketchup!
(http://www.muhlenberg.edu/depts/biology/faculty/niesenbaum/greed.jpg)
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So, because he opposed price caps he was in cahoots with the Enron sweetheart bags? It may have been a stupid stance to take, but he could have taken it for any number of reasons. Regardless, California ****ed themselves in the ass, which is something they're prone to do on a regular basis.
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What would you accept as proof?
Massive campaign contibutions?
Seats on Chaneys secret energy commision?
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Do you think that was proof? I'm just commenting on the article that was posted. Post others if you have them, I don't mind reading them. Not that it really matters though, I didn't vote for him this time, and I certainly won't in November. I already believe he'd drop the nation's pants and make us bend over for big business.
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The connection between Bush and Lay is a well known fact. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/story/0,3604,895135,00.html)
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I don't know if that's proof of a conspiracy, but like I said, I'd be more apt to believe it than not. And dayum, this is boring, I guess all the Bush lovers have said their prayers and are dreaming of moonlit walks on the beach with Dubbya.
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(http://www.thismodernworld.com/media/arc/american%20prospect/AMpro_bushdrm_10_11_01.jpg)
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but like I said, I'd be more apt to believe it than not.
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So Bush is involved in how many liberal conspiracies to take over the world and force a one world government on all the ignorant masses?
Im thinking there must be at least half a dozen different liberal freak outs about Bush and the 'vast right wing conspiracy'. No doubt if someone had nothing better to do and could get paid doing it, they could uncover 30-40 conspiracies trumped around the commie left wing press giving Bush credit for everything from UFOs to Bigfoot and no doubt Lacy Peterson's murder to boot.
Jeeze and I thought the right wing freak outs were out of control with vince foster and the clinton rapes.......same old same old.
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And if you think that Kerry wouldn't sell us out, you're crazy. Every politician is willing to sell us out for something. Be it trade with the Chinese, US energy business', some enviro crusade, etc.
:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Yeager
but like I said, I'd be more apt to believe it than not.
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So Bush is involved in how many liberal conspiracies to take over the world and force a one world government on all the ignorant masses?
Im thinking there must be at least half a dozen different liberal freak outs about Bush and the 'vast right wing conspiracy'. No doubt if someone had nothing better to do and could get paid doing it, they could uncover 30-40 conspiracies trumped around the commie left wing press giving Bush credit for everything from UFOs to Bigfoot and no doubt Lacy Peterson's murder to boot.
Jeeze and I thought the right wing freak outs were out of control with vince foster and the clinton rapes.......same old same old.
What the hell are you babbling about? I really don't care what the "liberal freaks" think of Bush. I was commenting on one issue. I'm sorry if you've got a bug up your bellybutton about something, but it's really got nothing to do with me.
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Originally posted by Dune
And if you think that Kerry wouldn't sell us out, you're crazy. Every politician is willing to sell us out for something. Be it trade with the Chinese, US energy business', some enviro crusade, etc.
Kerry's running neck and neck with Bush and Nader as people I would least like to vote for.
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Who would you like to vote for, SOB, if you don't mind my asking?
BTW I'm not sure I like that way that sheep in your avatar is looking at me....
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bush are evil!!
or is it the ppl telling boosh what to do is eval and bush is good but two stoopiad too knew who are doen what?
If I get to choose fropm the title of this thread, I select "A":
more retarded lefty "Anti-Bush Propaganda"
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wow aint democracy grand.....califonians voted.....they got what they wanted....and enron stuck it to them. Maybe they need to get off their greenpeace high horse and build some powerplants!
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the lefty girls are starting to sound shrill eh?
lazs
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Large industrial concerns have been trying to take advantage of presidential administrations since the Reconstruction period.
However, this proves nothing, except that there is good reason for Enron to be under investigation. I'm certain that there were idiots in other business concerns making the same types of statements about Clinton when he was in office.
If evidence is found that Bush was directly involved in this, rather than just the subject of offhand remarks by greedy neo-Mafia types, I'll help you vote him out. Otherwise, this is just an exercise in innuendo.
Shuckins/Leggern
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inuendo has allways been a tactic of the left... they usually get the shrillest and least truthful right before the election when the lies can't be proven in time.
This is a constant and one of the reasons that as people get older they lose their love affair with the left.
lazs
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For me: I voted for Bush (no surprise to anyone in here, I know) and I plan to stay the course. Things aren't as bad as the left likes to portray them, and I shudder to think how truley fluffied up things'd be if a real lib like Gore, or a Dem congress, had been in control these last several years.
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Enron was very comfortable with the Clinton administration too. What a suprise! All large companies are aware of the importance of sucking up to the government.
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imagine if that war damaged kerry were appointing judges. Imagine what he will do every time a bill restricting firearms rights crosses his desk for him to sign.
the french like kerry.
lazs
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Originally posted by Toad
Enron was very comfortable with the Clinton administration too. What a suprise! All large companies are aware of the importance of sucking up to the government.
Enron had no where near the level of influence with the Clinton Administration that it had with Bush. This can't be denied. (http://edition.cnn.com/2002/US/02/17/bush.lay/)
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Ken Lay was on Kerry's wife's BOD!
The horror!
And Enron benefitted from sweetheart deals arranged with the help of the Clinton Admin.
But go ahead and act like that stuff didn't happen.
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Anyone that screws Kalifornia can't be all bad.
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RPM I am no neo con but I am a commodity trader -
Thats trading 101.
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RPM, your first bit of 'proof' shows a connection between Bush I and Lay, not Bush II. Your second link doesn't work
What ticks me off at CBS is them turning what is a legitimate news piece into a hit job on GB. The whole idea of a Presidential candidate being lobbied and wooed by a big corporation has to be a brand new thing huh? Heck, isn't John Kerry literally in bed with the Heinz corporation?
The story was legitimate and really shows the moral corruption of the Enron corporation. THAT should be the story, not the 10 second little Bush jab that I guess the editors had to get in there.
BTW, if the deregulation was to bad, why didn't Clinton stop it? He had 8 years to do it.
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Originally posted by wklink
RPM, your first bit of 'proof' shows a connection between Bush I and Lay, not Bush II. Your second link doesn't work.
From the 1st link: Ken Lay developed connections among business and political leaders. He chaired the 1992 Republican national convention in Houston and sat with George H W Bush in the presidential box. After Bush lost the 1992 election, Lay maintained strong ties to the Bush family.
Bush's sons lobbied on behalf of Enron: Neil and Marvin in Kuwait and George W in Argentina.
If working for the man is not a connection, what is?
2nd link now works.
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Put "Lay Enron Clinton" into Google and see if you find any "links" there.
This whole thing is a "duh!".
Big Business and Big Government in bed together... who'd a thunk it?
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Originally posted by Toad
Put "Lay Enron Clinton" into Google and see if you find any "links" there.
This whole thing is a "duh!".
Big Business and Big Government in bed together... who'd a thunk it?
Odd, I don't recall Bill Clinton running for public office this year.
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Odd, I don't recall you making a big deal of it when Clinton was running. But Enron/Lay and Clinton were helping each other out then.
How very odd, eh?
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Originally posted by rpm371
Odd, I don't recall Bill Clinton running for public office this year.
Is Enron contributing to anyone's campaign this year? I thought they were bankrupt.
If you are going to be timely about your criticism, why are criticising Bush on a relationship to a ghost?
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These tapes were made in mid 2000?
When did Enron become unravelled? 2001?
Alot of people seem oblivious to a few obvious truths.
MiniD
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Originally posted by Toad
Odd, I don't recall you making a big deal of it when Clinton was running. But Enron/Lay and Clinton were helping each other out then.
How very odd, eh?
uhhh, clinton last ran in 1996. you were typing on a bbs with rpm then??
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Is Enron contributing to anyone's campaign this year? I thought they were bankrupt.
If you are going to be timely about your criticism, why are criticising Bush on a relationship to a ghost?
Because there is a strong indication of illegal activity. Remember the Ken Starr investigation that started over "White Water"? That was BEFORE Clinton took office. This, if proven, happened AFTER Bush took office.
Hey, if Clinton is drawn into this and proven to have taken part then procecute him as well. The law applies equally to everyone, especially those entrusted with public office. The manipulation of public utilities for the sole purpose of price gouging is exceptionally heinous and everyone involved should be thoroughly investigated.
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Originally posted by oboe
Who would you like to vote for, SOB, if you don't mind my asking?
BTW I'm not sure I like that way that sheep in your avatar is looking at me....
Too early to tell, I won't start researching until prolly October.
You don't like the come hither stare of sheeperella?
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Maybe just the fact that I recognize it as a come hither stare bothers me....I think I've been around you guys too long!
Good luck with your research, there are a lot of twisted truths and falsehoods to sift through. I voted for Nader last time, but not sure I will this time around.
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DESPERATION!!! AHHH!!!!
(http://www.georgewbush.com/images/gallery/20010903-1-1-in-file.jpg)
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Look, he won't let go of that kid and, oh my god, he's about to STAB THE KID'S EYES OUT WITH THAT PEN!!! BOOOSH IS SATAN!!!!!!11
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Originally posted by SOB
Look, he won't let go of that kid and, oh my god, he's about to STAB THE KID'S EYES OUT WITH THAT PEN!!! BOOOSH IS SATAN!!!!!!11
:lol
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Originally posted by rpm371
The law applies equally to everyone, especially those entrusted with public office. The manipulation of public utilities for the sole purpose of price gouging is exceptionally heinous and everyone involved should be thoroughly investigated.
Lay is being investigated (Although it seems not as zealously as Martha Stewart) and some Enron folk are already in jail. According to the article you posted, GWB lobbied for the benifit of a Texas based company, he accepted a Christmas Tree ornament, and most damning, corresponded with a CEO of a Texas based company on energy legislation and then signed energy legislation even though...
the documents do not indicate that his actions were in response to Lay's interests.
Do you think each Governer is intimately involved with all the nuances of each and every corporation based in his state? Any Governer worth his salt has lobbied for the business interests of his state. I would tend to think that some Governers (if not the vast majority) know someone who has broken laws governing corporate behavior, even if they are unaware of the illegal activity.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Lay is being investigated (Although it seems not as zealously as Martha Stewart) and some Enron folk are already in jail. According to the article you posted, GWB lobbied for the benifit of a Texas based company, he accepted a Christmas Tree ornament, and most damning, corresponded with a CEO of a Texas based company on energy legislation and then signed energy legislation even though...
Those links were to show Bush and Lay were indeed close friends for years. The tapes are from mid 2000 and were just released. There has been no investigation into Bush's involvement so far.
Do you think each Governer is intimately involved with all the nuances of each and every corporation based in his state? Any Governer worth his salt has lobbied for the business interests of his state. I would tend to think that some Governers (if not the vast majority) know someone who has broken laws governing corporate behavior, even if they are unaware of the illegal activity.
Once again, this is about his actions after becoming President. If he is suspected to have taken part anything illegal or unethical, it is the duty of Congress to investigate.
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Originally posted by rpm371
Once again, this is about his actions after becoming President. If he is suspected to have taken part anything illegal or unethical, it is the duty of Congress to investigate.
I'm sorry, apparently I misuderstood. I thought you posted a CBS report that had to do with unethical behavior of Enron and then I thought you backed it up with an article that started out,
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Newly released documents suggest that President Bush's relationship with embattled former Enron Chairman Kenneth Lay was once chummy and that Lay often asked him to act on Enron's behalf when Bush was governor of Texas.
I once again apologise, but I am sure you could see that it was an easy mistake to make.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
I'm sorry, apparently I misuderstood. I thought you posted a CBS report that had to do with unethical behavior of Enron and then I thought you backed it up with an article that started out,
"WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Newly released documents suggest that President Bush's relationship with embattled former Enron Chairman Kenneth Lay was once chummy and that Lay often asked him to act on Enron's behalf when Bush was governor of Texas."
I once again apologise, but I am sure you could see that it was an easy mistake to make.
No need to apologuise, I understand the confusion. I was just showing 2 different sources for the long standing Bush / Lay relationship. They are more than just casual aquaintences. You know how people want you to back up things with facts and links in here.
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so it's settled then? they whole enron thing was a result of the klinton admin.?
lazs
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rpm
no new prison pixs to post?
dam the luck ....
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Originally posted by Eagler
rpm
no new prison pixs to post?
dam the luck ....
Nice try at slander. Stick to the facts. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by rpm371
Nice try at slander. Stick to the facts. :rolleyes:
I believe I am...
If you had nasty new prison photos, this lame attempt to slam the POTUS & his admin would never of been posted...
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Originally posted by rpm371
No need to apologuise, I understand the confusion. I was just showing 2 different sources for the long standing Bush / Lay relationship. They are more than just casual aquaintences. You know how people want you to back up things with facts and links in here.
Do you think that Bill Gates or Paul Allen do not have relationships with the Governer of Washington? Or many other governers for that matter?
If you believe that relationships exist are you going to hold those officials responsible for the next worm exploitable hole in Windows?
I guess I will need to be more clear with my sarcasm in the future.
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Originally posted by Eagler
I believe I am...
If you had nasty new prison photos, this lame attempt to slam the POTUS & his admin would never of been posted...
Sorry Eagler, but your lame attempt to make me out as Anti-American only serves to show your position as a NeoCon and nothing more. Back in the 50's it was called McCarthyism.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
I guess I will need to be more clear with my sarcasm in the future.
As I with mine. You know how people want you to back up things with facts and links in here.
I understand government and business work together, they always have. But, if government conspires with business to defraud the public, that is unethical and illegal and that is the point. If he did nothing, then he has nothing to hide.
We know Enron is dirty. We know Lay had close ties to Bush. If it can be proven Bush used his influence to assist Enron in the fraud, as is alleged in the recordings, that is the problem. Only an investigation can determine that.
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Originally posted by rpm371
If it can be proven Bush used his influence to assist Enron in the fraud, as is alleged in the recordings, that is the problem. Only an investigation can determine that.
It is not alleged in the recordings according to your links:
From your CBS link: And the tapes appear to link top Enron officials Ken Lay and Jeffrey Skilling to schemes that fueled the crisis.
No link other than a couple of traders saying Bush would not favor price caps. A reasonable guess at the time from relatively low level employees who had no access to the goings on in the board room.
The other link you give points out the unprecedented revelation that a Texas Governer would be aquainted with energy company executives.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
It is not alleged in the recordings according to your links.
Yes, it is. It gives the impression that it was widely known Bush would act according to Enron's wishes. Did they say directly "Bush is going to help us commit fraud."? No, they did not. It merits an investigation. They have been done for much less.
No link other than a couple of traders saying Bush would not favor price caps. A reasonable guess at the time from relatively low level employees who had no access to the goings on in the board room.
Apparently the Enron janitorial staff had the authority to shut down power plants. :rolleyes:
The other link you give points out the unprecedented revelation that a Texas Governer would be aquainted with energy company executives.
Was there was any communications or meetings taking place between these 2 relative strangers who barely knew each other? Did they discuss commiting a fraud? Is George W. Bush an innocent man that naively stumbled into Lay's evil plan? Only 1 way to find out...investigate. Why wouldn't you welcome it? This would exonerate him completely of the whole Enron mess! He's got nothing to hide, or be ashamed of does he?
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Who says I do not welcome an investigation?
It just seems that you are coming from a position that is much like a scientist who collects only the data which supports a preconceived theory.
One of those theories is that the conversation between to floor traders shows that the Governer of a state is probably complicit in the fraud of millions of Enron customers. Floor traders are not employees at the highest policy making levels of the company, regardless of your rolleyes emoticon.
Yes, it is. It gives the impression that it was widely known Bush would act according to Enron's wishes.
No it doesn't. It proves nothing more than if you and I had a discussion about whether Governor Arnold would have a favorable policy toward the California movie industry, and is therforre personally responsible for Gigli.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
It proves nothing more than if you and I had a discussion about whether Governor Arnold would have a favorable policy toward the California movie industry, and is therforre personally responsible for Gigli.
While Ah-noldt had absolutely nothing to do with Gigli, you can not deny his involvement in "Last Action Hero" and "Hercules in New York".
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Keep reachin Libby's... the entertainment value of your crazy arnold ideas alone is enough to keep me coming back :D
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Originally posted by rpm371
Nice try at slander. Stick to the facts. :rolleyes:
Ahem...
Slander is spoken. Libel is written.