Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Krusher on June 02, 2004, 07:42:37 AM
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History repeating?
The New York Times ran a series of news stories in late 1945 reporting, in part, the following:
"," October 31, 1945
The German attitude toward the American occupation forces has swung from apathy and surface friendliness to active dislike. According to a military government official, this is finding expression in the organization of numerous local anti-American organizations throughout the zone and in a rapid increase in the number of attacks on American soldiers. There were more such attacks in the first week of October than in the preceding five months of the occupation, this source declared.
This official views the situation as so serious that he and others are protesting the withdrawal of 1,600 experienced military-government officers form the German governments on township, county and regional levels between Nov. 1 and Dec. 15. "We have been talking since the summer about the trouble that we expect this winter," the source said. "That trouble has now begun and we meet it with a plan to withdraw officers from communities where trouble is already being encountered.
"Loss of Victory in Germany Through U.S. Policy Feared," November 18, 1945
Grave concern was expressed today by informed officials that the United States might soon lose the fruits of victory in Germany through the failure to prepare adequately for carrying out its long-term commitments under the Potsdam Declaration. Government failures were attributed in part to public apathy. The predictions of a coming crisis are predicated upon three points:
1) The failure to start training a civilian corps of administrators to take over when the Army's Military Government pulls out of Germany by June 1.
2) The failure of the Government to set up an expert advisory group, such as that which existed in the Foreign Economic Administration's Enemy Branch to back up the American administrators of Germany with informed advice and provide a focal point in Washington for policy-making on the German question.
3) The failure of the Allies to decide together, or the United States for itself, the crucial economic question raised by the Potsdam Declaration; namely what level of German economic activity is desired over the long term?
"Germans Declare Americans Hated," December 3, 1945
An exhaustive compilation of opinions of Germans in all walks of life on their reaction to the United States occupation of their country was released this afternoon from the confidential status under which it was submitted to officials of the United States Forces in the European Theatre recently.
Bitter resentment and deep disappointment was voiced over the Americans' first six months of occupation, though there was some praise for the improvements in transportation, health conditions, book publishing and entertainment.
"German Election Set In Towns of U.S. Zone," December 19, 1945
United States Seventh Army headquarters announced today that plans had been completed for initial German elections in January at Gemuende. A statement said that a vast majority of Germans remained passive in attitude toward politics and displayed no disposition to take over civic responsibilities.
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Helps put things in perspective.
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Booooooooooosh was in charge then!
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Duh?!
We got frikin liberty and freedom..
Except hot brunnettes patrol the streets in germany kissing eachother... :aok
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I'm curious as to why you guys keep posting this stuff.
I was under the impression that the American posters on this board don't care what others think of them. In fact it has been written more times than I care to remember.
Methinks you protest too much.
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Originally posted by Hawklore
Duh?!
We got frikin liberty and freedom..
Except hot brunnettes patrol the streets in germany kissing eachother... :aok
Hot brunnettes? kissing each other? Im on my way!!!
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Originally posted by Curval
Methinks you protest too much.
Funny ... I was thinkin' the same about you. :D
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dont be afraid to do the right thing. Vote Bush
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Originally posted by Curval
I'm curious as to why you guys keep posting this stuff.
I was under the impression that the American posters on this board don't care what others think of them. In fact it has been written more times than I care to remember.
Methinks you protest too much.
Keep it in context (or get the context) and it should all come clear. Oh...and we don't much care what you think either :lol
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Originally posted by Curval
I'm curious as to why you guys keep posting this stuff.
I was under the impression that the American posters on this board don't care what others think of them. In fact it has been written more times than I care to remember.
Methinks you protest too much.
Methinks you jump to too many conclusions.
Some people (americans included) feel the need to point out that the current campaign has warts. This post is only pointing out that every conflict has its ups and downs.
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Sorry...you are right. I jumped before looking.
Apolowologies.:p
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Originally posted by WilldCrd
Hot brunnettes? kissing each other? Im on my way!!!
Can I come?!
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Originally posted by Curval
Sorry...you are right. I jumped before looking.
Apolowologies.:p
np :)
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Yes and they oppenly attacked american troops in the streets of berlin.
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Originally posted by Sabre
Helps put things in perspective.
Yes it does.
7 months after the fall of Berlin the German population was angery.
14 months after the fall of Bagdad the Iraq population is killing any american they can get thier hands on.
puts it in perfect perspective.
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Someone was listening to Rush today!!:D
WTG
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Originally posted by Pongo
Yes it does.
7 months after the fall of Berlin the German population was angery.
14 months after the fall of Bagdad the Iraq population is killing any american they can get thier hands on.
puts it in perfect perspective.
Ah lets see 20 millon Iraqs and what 180k US troops, I really don't think they all are "killing any they can get there hands on".
Most Iraqs are just getting on with life and rebuilding, only a few dead enders are killing (dieing) and they will be jailed or killed by the population in due time as they are the left overs from SH's regime.
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Originally posted by Krusher
History repeating?
I already beat down Ripsnore on this months ago.
Number of Americans killed in post war occupied Germany: 0
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Originally posted by -MZ-
I already beat down Ripsnore on this months ago.
Number of Americans killed in post war occupied Germany: 0
maybe cause the germans were smart enough to know a good thing when they saw it, not nutbag zealots brain washed drones that know nothing but to murder the hand that is trying to feed/help them...
flip the coin
you think we'd have been as patient with the germans in occupied germany if they behaved as the crazed iraqis do today?
I dont think so...
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Maybe because they had a sense of guilt over thier actions and had had thier country justly pummeled into oblivion.
Maybe thats not the case in Iraq?
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Originally posted by Eagler
you think we'd have been as patient with the germans in occupied germany if they behaved as the crazed iraqis do today?
I dont think so...
I'm not the one who came up with this stupid analogy.
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Originally posted by -MZ-
I already beat down Ripsnore on this months ago.
Number of Americans killed in post war occupied Germany: 0
Does 0 = 39 now?
A Phony "Phony History" (http://www.heritage.org/Press/Commentary/ed092303d.cfm)
What he apparently didn’t bother to do is read Perry Biddiscombe’s “Werwolf! The History of the National Socialist Guerrilla Movement, 1944-1946,” which gives full chapter and verse on Nazi-postwar guerrilla operations. It’s true that the Werwolf was poorly organized, and the threat of attacks greatly subsided after a few months of occupation. But they were very real. A survey of records by the U.S. Army Center of Military History shows that at least 39 combat deaths occurred in the first few months of the occupation. If the Nazis had been better organized, the Werwolf might well have given World War II GIs as much trouble as the thugs in Iraq are generating now.
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Shhhh, Toad .... you may upset.
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Interesting post, Krush.
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Originally posted by Toad
Does 0 = 39 now?
A Phony "Phony History" (http://www.heritage.org/Press/Commentary/ed092303d.cfm)
Most sources say zero.
I trust the Rand corporation more than Mr. Biddiscombe, who eventually admits in his own book that 'Werewolf' turned out to be almost nothing; Hitler youth and a few dead-enders hiding out in the forests.
This whole thing is a bad comparison from the start and is a weak attempt to minimize the magnitude of our current problems.
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A survey of records by the U.S. Army Center of Military History shows that at least 39 combat deaths
I doubt Mr. Biddescombe is in question here. Rather, you're arguing against reported info from the US Army Center for Military History.
Easier just to admit you may have made an error, I think.
AS for Biddescombe, he provides some dates/incidents that you should be able to check here:
Minutemen of the Third Reich - history of the Nazi Werewolf guerilla movement (http://articles.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1373/is_10_50/ai_66157021)
Buildings housing Allied and Soviet staffs were favourite targets for Werewolf bombings; an explosion in the Bremen police headquarters, also in June 1945, killed five Americans and thirty-nine Germans.
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Originally posted by Toad
Does 0 = 39 now?
A Phony "Phony History" (http://www.heritage.org/Press/Commentary/ed092303d.cfm)
39 does not equal 800.
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Originally posted by Toad
you're arguing against reported info from the US Army Center for Military History.
No, I am not:
THE U.S. ARMY IN THE OCCUPATION OF GERMANY (http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/wwii/Occ-GY/) - CENTER OF MILITARY HISTORY UNITED STATES ARMY
Chapter XIX:
Werwolf threat to one military government officer in the Western Military District, and a protest against denazification from the Evangelical Church of Wuerttemberg. Patrols occasionally found decapitation wires stretched across roads, ineptly it would seem, since no deaths or injuries resulted from them. Military government public safety officers from scattered locations reported various anti-occupation leaflets and posters, some threats against German girls who associated with US soldiers, and isolated attacks on soldiers. Although not a single case was confirmed, possibly the most talked about crimes against the occupation were the alleged castrations of US soldiers by German civilians. When the commanding officer of Detachment E3B2, in Erbach, Hesse, was asked to investigate one such rumor, he reported that not only had there been no castration but that there had not been a single attack on US military personnel in over four months of occupation.
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Originally posted by Pongo
14 months after the fall of Bagdad the Iraq population is killing any american they can get thier hands on.
:rolleyes: Right pongo... Once again, you proven you have no idea about what you speak.
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America is the greatest land of all.
Tough cookies if you dont like us :D
I like me I like my fellow american and I like most everyone. Thats what makes us americans :)
We have (for the most part) the ability to see good in things that most only see evil and bad in. As far as Germany hating us goes...
EH... We kicked their bellybutton once. We can do it again.
Of course, once again. I am trying to speak as simple as posible here. *K.I.S.S.* :D
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Morph....do you actually mean this or are you "trolling".....
We have (for the most part) the ability to see good in things that most only see evil and bad in. As far as Germany hating us goes...
EH... We kicked their bellybutton once. We can do it again.
You dont really feel that way do you?:confused:
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"We have (for the most part) the ability to see good in things that most only see evil and bad in."
lol, love it. Man you could only get away with a statment like that on a board like this...lol
Tumor, If I exagurated its a much smaller exaguration then comparing the occupation of Germany to the occupation of Iraq.
You didnt complain about that silly comparison for some reason though.
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Originally posted by Yeager
dont be afraid to do the right thing. Vote Bush
On the other hand, you could do the left thing and vote for Kerry. ;)
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Originally posted by -MZ-
No, I am not:
THE U.S. ARMY IN THE OCCUPATION OF GERMANY (http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/wwii/Occ-GY/) - CENTER OF MILITARY HISTORY UNITED STATES ARMY
Chapter XIX:
Werwolf threat to one military government officer in the Western Military District, and a protest against denazification from the Evangelical Church of Wuerttemberg. Patrols occasionally found decapitation wires stretched across roads, ineptly it would seem, since no deaths or injuries resulted from them. Military government public safety officers from scattered locations reported various anti-occupation leaflets and posters, some threats against German girls who associated with US soldiers, and isolated attacks on soldiers. Although not a single case was confirmed, possibly the most talked about crimes against the occupation were the alleged castrations of US soldiers by German civilians. When the commanding officer of Detachment E3B2, in Erbach, Hesse, was asked to investigate one such rumor, he reported that not only had there been no castration but that there had not been a single attack on US military personnel in over four months of occupation.
Those Werewolf Nazis were *******, sorry to say. Really, only 38 casualties iin four months? I could wage a war on homeless and kill 38 of them in less than four hours. And nobody would care either.
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Well, you've found ONE statement on the USACoMH website.
But you may want to drop this guy an e-mail or something and ask him what he found at the U.S. Army Center of Military History that led him to say:
It’s true that the Werwolf was poorly organized, and the threat of attacks greatly subsided after a few months of occupation. But they were very real. A survey of records by the U.S. Army Center of Military History shows that at least 39 combat deaths occurred in the first few months of the occupation.
James Jay Carafano, author of “Waltzing into the Cold War: The Struggle for Occupied Austria,” and a former instructor at the U.S. Military Academy, is a senior research fellow for defense and homeland security at The Heritage Foundation.
Use: staff@heritage.org
Subject: To Dr. James Jay Carafano
That's how you contact him.
It may be possible that he's a bit more familiar with the U.S. Army Center of Military History records than either you or I.
Just a thought.
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Yeah, OK, 39 lol.
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Originally posted by guttboy
You dont really feel that way do you?:confused:
Maybe he meant to say twice?
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[irrevelant content removed]
The similarities just abound in this comparison. Not only do you have the Werewolf/Feydeen, but the conflict between the Protestant and Catholic sects vying for power (with independent, militant Vatican insurgents thrown into the mix to help realize the goal of Catholic dominance throughout the region); and the Prussians, who were allies during the war, wanting to set up their own homeland. Also similarly, we have the same ratio of troop strength keeping things under control on the ground and an identical western culture in Iraq where there are far more similarities than differences between the occupiers and occupied. And most of all, there is the looming Iranian threat to the North encouraging cooperation just like “Ivan” did in 1945.
Nevill Chamberlain!
Charon
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comparing Germany 1945 to today's Iraq LOL
We bombed Germany with all of our & GB's might day and night before we set foot in that country...
Ya thunk we'd be in the same boat if we'd done the same to Iraq before we set foot in her? Would there had been anything left to set foot in?
pls, keep comparing apples to oranges ..
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Originally posted by Pongo
"
Tumor, If I exagurated its a much smaller exaguration then comparing the occupation of Germany to the occupation of Iraq.
You didnt complain about that silly comparison for some reason though.
It was comparing news headlines. Did you read the post or just go knee jerk to prove a point that validates your POV?
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Originally posted by Seeker
Interesting post, Krush.
Hey Seeker ! long time no see.
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Originally posted by -MZ-
I already beat down Ripsnore on this months ago.
Number of Americans killed in post war occupied Germany: 0
I have re-read the post several times and have yet to see any mention of Americans killed. Feel free to beat down at will.
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Originally posted by Pongo
"We have (for the most part) the ability to see good in things that most only see evil and bad in."
lol, love it. Man you could only get away with a statment like that on a board like this...lol
Tumor, If I exagurated its a much smaller exaguration then comparing the occupation of Germany to the occupation of Iraq.
You didnt complain about that silly comparison for some reason though.
Pongo... it's easy. Dig yourself out from under the wholly anti-anything-us approach for a second at look at what Krush posted in an academic manner. He's showing a relationship between discontent/instability in post (officially) hostile environments involving occupation. Good grief man, the body count has nothing to do with it. It's only natural that the residents of a country will be prone to discontent with a bunch of foriegners running around telling them what to do, or advising them, or anything else.... simply being there is enough.
Besides that, that is not what I was referring to. Here it is, you seem to have come to the conclusion that every Iraqi is out to kill every American you see. Frankly, you couldn't be more wrong. Sorry.
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Originally posted by Krusher
History repeating?
The New York Times ran a series of news stories in late 1945 reporting, in part, the following:
"," October 31, 1945
The German attitude toward the American occupation forces has swung from apathy and surface friendliness to active dislike. According to a military government official, this is finding expression in the organization of numerous local anti-American organizations throughout the zone and in a rapid increase in the number of attacks on American soldiers. There were more such attacks in the first week of October than in the preceding five months of the occupation, this source declared.
This official views the situation as so serious that he and others are protesting the withdrawal of 1,600 experienced military-government officers form the German governments on township, county and regional levels between Nov. 1 and Dec. 15. "We have been talking since the summer about the trouble that we expect this winter," the source said. "That trouble has now begun and we meet it with a plan to withdraw officers from communities where trouble is already being encountered.
"Loss of Victory in Germany Through U.S. Policy Feared," November 18, 1945
Grave concern was expressed today by informed officials that the United States might soon lose the fruits of victory in Germany through the failure to prepare adequately for carrying out its long-term commitments under the Potsdam Declaration. Government failures were attributed in part to public apathy. The predictions of a coming crisis are predicated upon three points:
1) The failure to start training a civilian corps of administrators to take over when the Army's Military Government pulls out of Germany by June 1.
2) The failure of the Government to set up an expert advisory group, such as that which existed in the Foreign Economic Administration's Enemy Branch to back up the American administrators of Germany with informed advice and provide a focal point in Washington for policy-making on the German question.
3) The failure of the Allies to decide together, or the United States for itself, the crucial economic question raised by the Potsdam Declaration; namely what level of German economic activity is desired over the long term?
"Germans Declare Americans Hated," December 3, 1945
An exhaustive compilation of opinions of Germans in all walks of life on their reaction to the United States occupation of their country was released this afternoon from the confidential status under which it was submitted to officials of the United States Forces in the European Theatre recently.
Bitter resentment and deep disappointment was voiced over the Americans' first six months of occupation, though there was some praise for the improvements in transportation, health conditions, book publishing and entertainment.
"German Election Set In Towns of U.S. Zone," December 19, 1945
United States Seventh Army headquarters announced today that plans had been completed for initial German elections in January at Gemuende. A statement said that a vast majority of Germans remained passive in attitude toward politics and displayed no disposition to take over civic responsibilities.
Wait a minute!!! You mean nobody is perfect?? (Gasp!) :eek:
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It was posted to show.
"Here is what happend before, it will happen again."
Its not academic. Its a point of view. Else it would have highlighted the differences which are far more telling.
Comparisons between Iraq and Japan and Germany have been coming up since 6 months befor the invasion. If it is not allowed to disucuss the issue rationaly instead of just bowing to 1/5th of a fact that makes you feel better about the actions of your goverment then someone should post a sticky to that effect.
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Originally posted by Tumor
Dig yourself out from under the wholly anti-anything-us approach for a second
Haha, speaking of Nazi Germany, the "no dissenters" thing worked out well there, too. What is this thread besides "see? invasion was the right thing to do!"?
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Kinda funny the people that invaded. Murdered and inslaved nearly all of Europe and Russia. Plus planed on doing the same to the rest of the world crying about thier own country being occupied. I wonder how they might of felt if the Allies had treated them the same way they treated the countrys they occupied.
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Pongo,
You really shouldn't bag on america. Since we're the only thing keeping the mexicans from kickin the crap out of canada and all.... :p
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I do appreciate it. But I consider the invasion of Iraq and the defence of cananda as seperate issues. Just like you probably consider the paricipation in and support of the invasion of Afganistan and the critism of and non participation in the invasion of Iraq as seperate issues. For one(often forgotten) Canada is a great place and a stout ally. Dieing hand in hand or at the hand of Americans.
For the other Canada is a sniveling bunch of cowards. Pointing out issues that are denied by americans till they become set backs that are then declared irrelivent.
But thanks for defending us from Mexico. After watching The Alamo I am glad your there to protect us.