Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: lazs2 on June 03, 2004, 04:47:17 PM
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Several people with views differing from mine on firearms rights told me that they would read Proffessor John Lotts new book about firearms and the media.. I offered to buy them a copy but they said it was in their loca library's and that they would check it out and tell me wht they thought about it.
Anyone finish yet? Anyone start? Opinions?
lazs
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My dog ate it.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
My dog ate it.
I miss having a dog, and not only for eating my homework. When Mia gets abit older we are gonna get one. I also miss dogfighting in AH.
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We both can't go for the Nash Hijack award in the same thread!
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Originally posted by midnight Target
We both can't go for the Nash Hijack award in the same thread!
Why not? AH2 is go for next week if you read the news so i can do whatever i want :p
btw....we need someone that registered in november 2001 to respond now so we can get this in order.
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MT.. weren't yu one of the ones who was gonna read the book?
I will make a deal... I will read any author who holds one of you guys whacko liberal views (unless I have allready read it) on any subject you choose no matter how tinfoil hatted I think it is..
lazs
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I rescued a kitten 6 months ago. He likes to sit on my lap and watch me fly.
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Mmmmm........tinfoil
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Yea, I really do feel bad too. I was at the library on Saturday too, completely forgot about it. I will .. I swear I will.
I think you need to read Al Franken's book.
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Originally posted by rpm371
I rescued a kitten 6 months ago. He likes to sit on my lap and watch me fly.
Does he "attack" the planes he sees with red icons? If not, your cat sucks.
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MT... I will if you will.
lazs
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MT's dog ate mine too
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Does he "attack" the planes he sees with red icons? If not, your cat sucks.
He has been strictly forbidden to attack anything since the "Cat Ack" incident.
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Two sides (http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/issues/?page=lott) to every story.
Ravs
p.s. was I one of the people who said he'd read the book? I don't remember.
[eidt] MT? When you said 'the dog ate it', were you making the usual homework excuse, or were you referring to this (http://slate.msn.com/id/2078084/) ?
Ravs
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Interesting Links Ravs, I wish I was being that clever, but the 'dog' comment was just a joke.
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Sorry, too busy with anti-zombie preparation.
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Hell .... who needs book lernin' ta know that ifluff'n ya don't got yer own M-16 with grenade launcher attachment yer just flat askin fer the guvment to tattoo th' mark o' the beast on yer pee-pee.
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Originally posted by Arlo
Hell .... who needs book lernin' ta know that ifluff'n ya don't got yer own M-16 with grenade launcher attachment yer just flat askin fer the guvment to tattoo th' mark o' the beast on yer pee-pee.
lol :D
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From the article linked by Ravells
...One type of faking that apparently is Lott's style is the assumption of a fictional identity on the Internet...
OMG!! Could Lott be MrBlack??
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Originally posted by deSelys
OMG!! Could Lott be MrBlack??
you may Be onto Something there.,.lemme investigaTe
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Besides, Gary Keck's research is even better than Lott's.
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guys.. read the book... there are thousands of facts and reams of data. If you look at the two articles supposedly debunking it they show only two possibly shaky data points that have nothing to do with the overall points. Note that both articles are allmost word for word. Only two points seem shaky that they uncovered.. the rest is just ... "our reserchers say the data is flawed but we hve none of our own nor can find anything not factual about his."
The brady bunch consitently get caught in massive lies like the "10 children killed every day by gun accidents" ones. the brady bunch lied about how many people were killed with "assault rifles" and called 17-19 year old gang menbers with rap sheets "children murded with guns".
When you read the book you will see that the important data has never been sucessully chalenged and.... Why hasn't it? I mean.. most of what he says is far more damaging than some poll... Perhaps the FBI is in cahoots with him?
read the book and then tell me why those articles are the best the combined forces of all the lefty anti gun nuts can come up with.
If everything not in those articles is still accurate (saying that those things may not be) then 99.9999999999% of the book is still accurate.
one thing is certain... no one else has ever done such a massive and comprehensive work on the subject.
I was glad to see that the brady bunch has no retracted their foirmer fawning adoration of besllies work of total fiction tho.
look whos work they praised and whose the brady bunch is condeming.... the brady bunch have allways been buffoons and continue to be.
lazs
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Put it in perspective... take the most respeted WWII autor you know and say there are 1,000 facts or points of data in his book and say it is proven that 2 of em are not that well researched or not even right. Would you side with a rival who hammered on those 2 points to discredit the entire book?
then take a book that had maybe 500 facts or a "documentary" that had maybe 30 "facts".... say the book had maybe 450 errors or faked data and the movie had 25.
Would you tar all of them with the same brush?
lazs
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Lazs,
That is exactly the impression that I got when I read the first Article I posted. They were trying, by innuendo, to devalue everything Lott was saying by casting aspersions on one or two statistical samples he had provided.
What is interesting is why his critics have been so quiet on his other data. You can bet that they looked at it to try to question its accuracy. It would have been more balanced if they had said that his other data was valid.
I don't think I'll buy the book, but I'll read up more about it on the net.
Ravs
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Originally posted by lazs2
Several people with views differing from mine on firearms rights told me that they would read Proffessor John Lotts new book about firearms and the media.. I offered to buy them a copy but they said it was in their loca library's and that they would check it out and tell me wht they thought about it.
Anyone finish yet? Anyone start? Opinions?
lazs
I had scheduled a trip to the library a couple of weeks ago but the wife wasn't up for it. Then we left town, then Memorial Day weekend hit. Now Summer's here and the time is right... for beach volleyball season, which means no time for reading until the rainy season kicks in.
edit: while we're on the topic, what's the value in the "concealed carry"? I mean, if the whole point is that guns deter crime, wouldn't we want the criminals to know that we're armed? Wouldn't it be more effective to wear holsters in plain sight? If the deterrance is that the criminal thinks "maybe that guy has a gun in that briefcase, so I won't attack him", then it becomes more cost-effective to not have a gun, since guns cost money to buy. Just a thought.
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Originally posted by gofaster
If the deterrance is that the criminal thinks "maybe that guy has a gun in that briefcase, so I won't attack him", then it becomes more cost-effective to not have a gun, since guns cost money to buy. Just a thought.
Only if you live in a state where people are allowed to carry concealed. I don't care if you own a gun or not. What I don't want is to be restricted unConstitutionally in my gun ownership.
So if some criminal doesn't attack you because they think you might be me, ie. armed, bully for you. And you can buy me a beer later for being armed and saving you from a robbery.
:D
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rav... you are exactly on target with your point. I feel exactly the same way. The anti gun crowd is large and powerful with many influential people in the media... the books (lotts) are jammed with data... half the books are footnotes and index....
Believe me... if there were any earthshaking errors in the book that could be proved the left would be all over em... they have had years to examine the data and gone over it with a microscope... they continue to decline debate opportunities.
if you wish to read some of his side to it try http://www.johnrlott.com/
but rav.. If you email me I will buy you a copy and send it to you if you can't find one in a library.
more proof of what you say is in the bellise (sp) book about the arming of America... it came out and the left showered it with the most prestigious awards that can be given... every newspaper gave the book rave reviews...
in less than a month the data came into doubt... by six months the data was shown to be completely fraudulent. Awards were recinded. the left is still smarting over that one.
So far as I know... every anti gun book written is either based solely on "feelings" or proven to contain nothing but fraudulent data.
lazs
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go faster.. you are exactly ritght too..
it is cheaper and less trouble and less risk to not carry a gun and hope the deterent effect of right to carry laws in your state protect you under their umbrella..
the way it works is... probly not more than 10% or so people will even get cc permits even if they are easy to come by but... if 10% of the population is armed then criminals know that in a crowd of 10 there is about a 100% chance they will come up against a law abiding citizen that is armed.
If you help get right to carry laws in your state then you are in effect helping to protect yourself an loved ones even if you never get a gun yourself.
best of all... there is no downside since the cc people cause no problems.
voting for more gun restrictions actually endangers yourself and your loved ones.
right to carry states have 70% less multiple victim public shootings for instance.
conversely.... there has not been one single gun restriction that has been passed that has been shown to do any good whatsoever.
boils down to... more guns win/win... more restrictive laws... at best, stay the same.. at worst.. make things much worse.
lazs
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That's incredibly kind of you Lazs. Thanks.
I have about 12 books in the queue to read at the moment. Once I get the number down to a managable level I'll come back to you.
Ravs
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rav.. no problem. While we don't agree a lot of the time I do believe that you give most peoples arguements a fair reading. There are several on this board that I wouldn't make the offer to but most of the brighter (and usually older) semi-liberals on this board have some decent thought processes going on.
Either way... I would like your opinion.
lazs
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Soooooo....
If 98% of "gun related saves" are due to brandishing or the simple knowledge that a gun is present, then....
I could save a bunch of money and invest in a cool looking toy gun, or lifelike BB gun and it'll work 98% of the time.. right?
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Speaking of dogs...I found an abandoned puppy in our neighborhood earlier this week. The cutest german shep/lab mix I've ever seen in a 1-month old mutt. She was stuck under my neighbor's SUV...her makeshift leash was stuck underneath the front tire.
Found her a GREAT home 2 days later.
It was my good deed for the year. :aok
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Soooooo....
If 98% of "gun related saves" are due to brandishing or the simple knowledge that a gun is present, then....
I could save a bunch of money and invest in a cool looking toy gun, or lifelike BB gun and it'll work 98% of the time.. right?
98% of the time. ;)
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Laz, buy me a copy and I'll read it.
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look this is 2004....do you really need a gun today to survive.
maybe in the 1800's you did need a gun to protect yourselves and your Family....since in those days you really did need 1....but not today bud
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Originally posted by SLO
look this is 2004....do you really need a gun today to survive.
I'm conforted to know that in 2004 no one is ever going to try and do me harm. And, if they do, I'll just call the Police....
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Originally posted by Otto
I'm conforted to know that in 2004 no one is ever going to try and do me harm. And, if they do, I'll just call the Police....
As my father used ta say "If the police cannot protect the people then people must protect themselves"
Just in my own observations its painfully obvious the police are pretty enept at protecting the people untill after the fact.
Thats not ment as a a slight on Cops because they can only do what they can as best they can..
But it s a realistic view on it.
Plus I wana know if they take away all the guns who is gonna protect me from the government.
Although I suppose that with a trip or two to a hardware store combined with mixing the proper proportions a few houshold ingrediants I could make something that although crude would be more then capable of blowing a sizable hole through anyone with the strike of a match.
Seems kinda time consuming though.:)
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"Soooooo....
If 98% of "gun related saves" are due to brandishing or the simple knowledge that a gun is present, then....
I could save a bunch of money and invest in a cool looking toy gun, or lifelike BB gun and it'll work 98% of the time.. right?
__________________
Tah Gut
Midnight Tahgut "
You are correct... I would say that less than 1 in 100 people would not back down from a gun pointed at them real or not. Of course... in most states the penalties for brandishing a toy gun are the same or worse than a real one and it is just as inconvienient and you can't get a permit to carry a toy gun and if you run into a bad guy with a gun (the 1 in 100)and and and..
but if you do... you should probly saw off the flouresent orange tip all toy guns are required by law to have. That would make you an even worse criminal tho of course..
bohdi.. if you believe that we need more restrictive gun laws and are unable or even unwilling to go to the library to check out "the bias against guns" and you are willing to read it and report on it... Email me and I will buy you a copy Put something in the subject line so I don't think it is spam.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
MT.. weren't yu one of the ones who was gonna read the book?
I will make a deal... I will read any author who holds one of you guys whacko liberal views (unless I have allready read it) on any subject you choose no matter how tinfoil hatted I think it is..
lazs
even "Living History" by Hillary?
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strk... if that is the one he wants me to read and comment on and the one that he believes supports his views best.
I listen to a little grass valley ultra left wing radio show all the time... It is a hoot.. all these post menopausal hippie chicks and pale men espousing the most bizzare "facts" about government and the environment and social systems (sorta like your stuff) and wondering why no on takes them seriously... it is great fun to listen to their desperation and watch them tell bigger and bigger whoppers in order to get a reaction.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
strk... if that is the one he wants me to read and comment on and the one that he believes supports his views best.
I listen to a little grass valley ultra left wing radio show all the time... It is a hoot.. all these post menopausal hippie chicks and pale men espousing the most bizzare "facts" about government and the environment and social systems (sorta like your stuff) and wondering why no on takes them seriously... it is great fun to listen to their desperation and watch them tell bigger and bigger whoppers in order to get a reaction.
lazs
you can stream air america too - check out randi rhoades show at 3pm weekdays
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randi rhodes? A now defunct (dont they all end up being) leftie station used to have a shrill lady called dusty rhodes.
Will try to find air America... sounds like a real hoot... a frisco styled tinfoil hat site for sure.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
rav.. no problem. While we don't agree a lot of the time I do believe that you give most peoples arguements a fair reading. There are several on this board that I wouldn't make the offer to but most of the brighter (and usually older) semi-liberals on this board have some decent thought processes going on.
Either way... I would like your opinion.
lazs
OK, thanks Lasz. Send me the book. I'll read it. give me your email address and I'll send you my postal address. Or if you prefer, send me an email on ravells@hotmail.com.
Of all the posters on these boards you have done more to change my mind about any issue.
Ravs
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Lazs:
If you're going to buy ravs a book. Log on to the UK Amazon site and buy it there and ship it directly to him. You will save a lot on shipping.
Hooligan
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Originally posted by lazs2
right to carry states have 70% less multiple victim public shootings for instance.
I think we need to take a closer look at cause and effect. You have mentioned in the past that Vermont has some of the most lax gun laws out of the 50 states. I think you would be pretty quick to cite this as the reason for the relatively low rate of crime.
But this would be to overlook other very significant factors. No-one would dispute the fact that a majority of crime occurs in areas of high population density. The big cities.
Vermont doesn't have any areas of high population density. It's about 9,000 square miles and has about 65 people per square mile. Even Burlington, Vermont's largest city, has a population of only about 40,000.
To single out the presence or absence of guns or gun laws in an attempt to draw a comparison between different crime rates ignores the wider issue of demographics.
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I don't use Libraries because the govt. keeps track of what you read.....and what your puppy borrows too...
Tronsky
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Lazs, who was it that looked at gun-related crime in the late 1800s and discovered it was shockingly low? In the 1800s, everyone not living in a city (very large fraction of the population) was well armed.
curly
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hoolign thanks for the tip.
ravs... I will look up the UK Amazon site and get the bok to you as soon as I can.
trotski... if our government was that intrusive and worried about you reading a study on firearms.... I would want to be armed.
curly... the books by Lott cover only the last few decades and mostly they are the latest data available but It has allways been my understanding that historicaly rural people are armed better and have lower crime rates.
Oh.. beetle.. you should read the book and how the data was collected and what vbariables were taken into consideration... all of your concerns were adressed and accounted for. He likens anything affecting the 70% result other than concealed carry to being like flipping a legit coin 10 times and getting heads every time.
lazs
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I'll send the book onto to Beetle when I'm done with it, Lazs.
Ravs
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One thing making me wary of lambda citizens toting guns:
I don't know about you, but I'm more often than not appalled by the stupidity and the aggressivity of the average driver. I think that the driving license is given far too easily and available to people who don't have the brains, the coordination and/or the reflexes for driving.
For instance, a private pilot license is much more restricted skillwise but much more realistic with the requirements of safely flying an aircraft.
This leads me to think that Joe Average, allowed to carry a gun, would perform really poorly in such a stressful situation as a shooting.
I wouldn't be against citizens carrying guns IF they are properly screened, trained and regularly checked (safe handling, shooting, knowledge of law).
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Originally posted by gofaster
edit: while we're on the topic, what's the value in the "concealed carry"? I mean, if the whole point is that guns deter crime, wouldn't we want the criminals to know that we're armed? Wouldn't it be more effective to wear holsters in plain sight? If the deterrance is that the criminal thinks "maybe that guy has a gun in that briefcase, so I won't attack him", then it becomes more cost-effective to not have a gun, since guns cost money to buy. Just a thought.
I think tht the fact the the would be attacker dosen't know if you are carring or not is a great detterance, especially if a signifigant number of others "are" really armed. The only real down side is what do you do with your fire arm when you need to go in to a posted no CC zone .
I do know that in Texas the personal attack numbers were way down after the CC was implemented. > but a web serch of Tx papers should pull the articles up>
<>
Gunns
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Originally posted by deSelys
I wouldn't be against citizens carrying guns IF they are properly screened, trained and regularly checked (safe handling, shooting, knowledge of law).
You pot smoking pinko commie woman liberal, keep yer damned laws ofluff'n my property :mad:
:D
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Missing or inaccurate data...:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by lazs2
Oh.. beetle.. you should read the book and how the data was collected and what vbariables were taken into consideration... all of your concerns were adressed and accounted for. He likens anything affecting the 70% result other than concealed carry to being like flipping a legit coin 10 times and getting heads every time.
Really? Because the largest city in CA is Los Angeles with 3.7 million - replete with ethnic minorities, major gang crime, major drug crime, racial tensions etc. How does one go about comparing a city like LA with Burlington, VT - only one hundredth the size, and unlikely to have any of the problems I've listed for LA in any such magnitude? If Lott can make allowances for those discrepancies, it sounds like he's stumbled upon a formula for comparing apples with oranges.
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beetle... California is a right to carry state. You really need to read the book. the data and charts aren't on the internet for me to link to or cut and paste... it is pages of data and charts with references and explanations on variables. All I can tell you is that it would answer your questions.
You need to read the book or ask me a specific question..
Oh... and Amazon UK... hope I have better luck on rav's book than I did on beetles. Tried to send beetle "more guns less crime" and the UK store told me it was backordered. maybe 6 weeks later they told me they no longer handled it.
deselys... I have no problem with safe gun handling being taught in school like they used to. Somehow tho red tail would make that into a racial issue I bet.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
beetle... California is a right to carry state.
since when? At your house last Oct., you told me it wasn't.
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I don't believe I would have done that but... in my county (it is a county by county on how many permits are issued) it is very difficult.. I might have said "no way are you gonna get a permit here"?
lazs
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Originally posted by beet1e
... it sounds like he's stumbled upon a formula for comparing apples with oranges.
well, lets see...
The apple, Pyrus malus, also known as Malus pumila and Malus domestica, was probably first eaten, and later cultivated before the dawn of history in central asia, possibly Kazakhstan. It is a member of the rose family, Rosaceae, which includes blackberries, hawthorns, cinquefoils, strawberries, plums, cherries, and of course, roses. Most of the Rosaceae have showy flowers, and fruiting is benefited by cross pollination by insects, especially bees.
While oranges, (Citrus sinensis Osbeck) with numerous cultivated varieties, constitutes one of the world's most popular and recognizable fruit crops. These fruits are hesperidiums, because of their fleshiness and separable rind. Physically, citrus fruits consist of forty to fifty percent juice, twenty to forty percent rind and twenty to thirty-five percent pulp and seeds. Chemically, they contain eighty-six to ninety-two percent water, five to eight percent sugars and one to two percent pectin with lesser amounts of acids, protein, essential oils and minerals (Janick et. al. 1981).
Citrus fruits grow on small evergreen trees, many of which depend on root mycorrhizae (Janick et. al. 1981). Most of these C3 plants are cultivated as scions on rootstocks. All Citrus species have a diploid chromosome number of eighteen and are interfertile.
There; I knew I could compare them.
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I believe that Lott would have compared them in just about the same way.... complete with charts and graphs and any possible varribles and arguements from the leading opposssition writers.
really... you guys need to read the book. He is an economist and he even looks at the whole issue from the standpoint of economy (monetary and human life).
lazs
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Ok ravs... ordered the book from the UK amazon place. It is being shipped from the states so I don't know how long it will take... Oh, it's a used copy but it was about half price. Have had good luck with used Amazon books. Let me know when you get it.
lazs