Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: SpitLead on June 03, 2004, 05:01:23 PM
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I've been away from AH for a few years so this subject has probably been covered ad nauseum but I'm going to throw it up again. Looking at the performance data provided by AH for several of the current perk planes, namely the F4U-4 and the Spit 14, it seems to me the La7 should be a perk plane. The top speed at sea level of the La7 is as FAST as the F4U-4 AND it has better climb rate at sea level with WEP. It also turns better at low speed. Versus the Spit 14, the La7 blows away the top speed by nearly 15-20 MPH but the Spit does have a better climb rate by about 500 fpm. So where is the advantage?? Why blow 40-60 perk points on either of these airplanes when the La7 is as good as if not better performer in the MA where most of the action takes place below 5000 ft? Someone please help me figure this one out. Given the number of La7's in the MA I would think AH should consider perking this airplane like they did with the F4U-C. Is there something to these planes I'm missing here? Thanks for your intelligent replies in advance...
Spitlead
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Problem with La7 or any other plane is overusage. IMO, that should be the mandatory factor to perk anything.
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Each nationality in Aces High has a top end aircraft that isn't perked. Russia has La7, Briton Spit9, Italy C205, German 109G10 and the United States P51.
Each of these planes are roughly equal and they are the "late war power planes". I think its just to make things even between all the represented countries (think of it mainly for the Combat Theatre scenarios and Special Events)
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Originally posted by Blooz
Each nationality in Aces High has a top end aircraft that isn't perked. Russia has La7, Briton Spit9, Italy C205, German 109G10 and the United States P51.
:rofl
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Sure Karnak that was funny :D
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Originally posted by Blooz
Each nationality in Aces High has a top end aircraft that isn't perked. Russia has La7, Briton Spit9, Italy C205, German 109G10 and the United States P51.
Each of these planes are roughly equal and they are the "late war power planes". I think its just to make things even between all the represented countries (think of it mainly for the Combat Theatre scenarios and Special Events)
Yeah, had to laugh at the Spit9 too Karnak! :) Detuned early 1942 Spit....
Blooz, thought the Spit14 supposed to be the equivalent to the P51D and 190D9? :)
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The logic of the NPA suggests that the La-7 should be perked at 3~5 points.
The arena should be shifted into an environment resembling late 1943.
The changes in fuel burn rate in AH2 has rendered the La-7 pretty much unpopular as it has a very limited range.
However, it is proven that when the La-7 became a rare plane, there was practically no stopping 190Ds and Bf109G-10s, P-51Ds.
The over abundance of these planes in the Beta arena was actually a very intersting thing to watch and analyze - as the LW planes seem to have been chosen as a worthy substitue to the La-7 in the fact that they are both very fast, and has longer range than the La-7, with the ability to carry DTs.
Thus, the whole section of these "late war" planes, should be perked.
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"However, it is proven that when the La-7 became a rare plane, there was practically no stopping 190Ds and Bf109G-10s, P-51Ds."
Yup enter the "Runstang"
It was more popular than the La7 in AH1 and that is set to grow even more in AH2 once folk see a slightly better FM under combat trim and a fuel endurance (under FBM 2) to enable many multiple hit and spray and run and climb attacks.
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the la7 has 21 min of fuel at mil in AH2. It doesnt need to be perked. The p51d should be perked. Its used far more then any other plane in the main. With th high fuel mod its numbers will climb.
I dunno how the hell anyone can the spit 9 or even the niki should be perked. Both of those planes are so slow the only way they can get to you is if you let them.
The la7 the spoit 9 and niki are the fun planes to fight. The p51s and p238s and p47s are the worst.
We need more fun and less run.....
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Originally posted by Karnak
:rofl
ROFL @ karnak :lol
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Originally posted by Kweassa
However, it is proven that when the La-7 became a rare plane, there was practically no stopping 190Ds and Bf109G-10s, P-51Ds.
A well flown (ok, masterfully flown) P47D-11 or F4U-1 can handle any of the aforementioned rides.
The issue here is that too many people suck up to the fastest, shiniest late war bird they can get, and w/o really learning how to fly.
I'm an average pilot, at best, but I've had my share of kills in my mid-war rides against late war rides that people havent learned to fly. IMO, and in my experience, I've had far tougher fights against that lone wolf in his P47 or FM2 than the late wars....maybe I've been unlucy enough to run into a monster at 25k :)
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Yup the La7 should get its drop tanks.
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Perk status isn't just about performance. It's also about historical availability.
In the case of the Spit14 only some 900 were built as opposed to the 11,000 or so Spit5 and 9's that were built.
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Originally posted by Blooz
Perk status isn't just about performance. It's also about historical availability.
In the case of the Spit14 only some 900 were built as opposed to the 11,000 or so Spit5 and 9's that were built.
Numbers isn't necessary an excuse to perk a plane:
N1K2 - 416 made
La5 - 1,500 made
P40B - 241 made
Bf110C4 - 1,000 made
Fw190A5 - 723 made
Fw190D9 - 700 made
So, the Spit14 is supposed to be equivalent to the P51D and the 190D9... and there were less D9s made than the Spit14, so ???
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I agree Spitlead i am sick of me being 15k then a 10k la7 climbs to me out. I say perk it or lower the performence power.:aok
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Leave the poor La-7 alone. Eliminate all perks. Fly what you want.
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If it's to do with numbers built we should perk the seafire IIC, only about 375 were ever made. :eek: However to compensate the Fleet Air Arm fans i guess HTC will just have to model the most common seafire- the seafire L III. It only seems fair.:)
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Its no suprise that the next song is in our countdown, its been on a fast rise and even though its little more than a remix from their previous album, from the chart climbing second CD from Dale Hitech and the Scuzzies, titled Aces High Too, Debuting at #8 its that old time favorite with the same beat here's "Perk the La-7"
(http://www.combathanger.com/sinature04.gif) (http://www.combathanger.com/)
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Originally posted by Replicant
Numbers isn't necessary an excuse to perk a plane:
...
La5 - 1,500 made...
Over 9,900 La5's of various versions were produced.
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Originally posted by Furious
Over 9,900 La5's of various versions were produced.
I got my data from http://www.acepilots.com/planes/specs.html I guess it's incorrect but the other data supplied seems accurate.
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How many la5 FN were made though. oops just looked at the site, 1,500 appears to be for la5FN.
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La5 FN is the one we have in AH.
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Tilt probably knows the answer more accurately, but what I have states:
1942 La-5 - 1,129
1943 La-5F/La-5FN - 5,048 (it does not break down F's vs. FN's)
1944 La-5FN - 3,826
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Less than 300 C.205s were built. I have the number somewhere, but am feeling too lazy to look it up.
Also, only about 300 Merlin 61 powered Spitfire F.Mk IXs (like we have in AH) were built. So the Spitfire Mk XIV was actually three times as numerous as our Spitfire Mk IX.
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The p51s and p238s and p47s are the worst.
We need more fun and less run.....
are you trying to say P38s run? maybe from some, but not the planes we are talking about here.
~S~
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Typos are typos…
but I meant what I said, US planes run. They all suck and are boring to fight (with few exceptions).
Those late war planes in which the p38l (they mostly run into the ground on suicide pork and auger “mishuns”) is one (it saw service about the same time as the d9 for instance) and should be perked.
Planes like the la7 etc... are fun to fight. In AH2 with just 21 min of fuel they can’t run far even if they wanted to.
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Engagements with P38's are mostly "boring" because most of the time the person at the controls doesn't know what they're doing. Even though I fly 38s almost exclusively, I'll be the first to admit that most of the time they're easy kills. Not sure why you'd want to perk it.
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Originally posted by Halo
Leave the poor La-7 alone. Eliminate all perks. Fly what you want.
Now there's a recipe for disaster.
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How about perk odinance like perking special weapons and things like DTs etc?
That would help instead of perking the whole plane no?
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With FBM of 2, La-7 with full tank can:
- Climb to 10k ,full throttle
- Cruise at around 320mph 1.5 sectors
- Combat with full throttle and occasional WEP around 10mins
- Cruise back 1.5 sectors at 320mph.
When the combat time is reduced to 5mins, La-7 can travel two full sectors and back. People will learn quickly not to use full throttle all the time.
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You can fly that way now in an arena of 100 or less, with an arena with 500 players you won’t be leisurely cruising about especially on the smaller maps where the fronts are compact.
With the fuel mod at 2 you will see more p51s and p38s because for the most part they can run at full power as long as they wish.
This even more a reason to perk the late war US plane set. More fun, less run....
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TimRas,
True, but you rarely get to cruise home as there are generally angry people after you at that point. You need to save enough fuel to fly home at MIL power.
(I can't believe I just posted something in defense of La-7s)
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Even the max. cruise speed of La-7 is pretty high, about the same as max. OTD speed of Spit IX or N1K. But yes, FBM 2.0 likely will reduce the numbers of La-7's in MA.
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If the present MP model is retained then you are best climbinmg to 17 K where you can get more pressure / throttle.......(dont ask me why.......I am not sure [read doubt] if its right).
You can then settle down and cruise for may be a sector (unless you have climbed out toward the combat zone.....this depends on dar etc)
Todate any thing I have met OTW to another base (AH2) has been higher than me......... this is OK it just means that it is not a quick bounce type attack.................. its a game of chess drawing my opponent to a Co- e state.
This usually means that combat takes some time........ if my opponent suddenly gets "help" (also high) I need an exit strategy.
This is not just a MIl power exit this is full blown WEP....infact often I am saving engine temp to ensure that I have enough........
so now I have to save fuel too.....I dont have a problem with this its a vaild model restriction............ FBM2 is not however....its artificially penalises some AC whilst (by comparison) enhancing others.
Even at 1.00 the Lavochkins will not be as popular as they are in the AH1 MA now (IMO).............. fuel will still burn quicker at Mil power etc.
So the question in my mind is.......... Is FBM now being used to enhance/re balance/adjust /modify player choices and behaviour?
I dont think that is the intent and yet I wonder at an adjustment that makes a long range escort fighter the optimum battle zone air superiority fighter because it actually has enough fuel to climb,ingress to zone, and PATROL prior to multiple combat and egress.
Where as the historically ideal battle zone air superiority fighter is not suitable whilst this adjustment is in place..............
if madox were to make such an adjustment.............
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MA is not an historic MA, production numbers or any other historic stuff should not count as perking factors.
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Originally posted by ra
Now there's a recipe for disaster.
wall to wall temps
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Wall to wall whatever -- that too shall pass, and the righteous shall find worthy steeds and prevail as the dweebs and newbies rejoice in their cornucopia, and verily, as the carnage ebbs and flows, they shall say It Is Good and we shall gladly pay our $14.95 all the months of our lives.
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GODO, I agree. There seems to be little connection anyway between the production run and whether it's a perk plane or not. A main basis I believe of the whole "perk" plane concept was to balance the MA if one plane was seemingly being used in a much greater proportion to the other planes. The F4U-C falls into this category. But, it was also I believe intended to be for those very high performance aircraft that one could purchase as a "reward" for scoring points. The ME262 and Tempest (and others) fall into this categories. However, judging from the high usage of the La7 in the MA and it's superior performance to some of the aircraft already perked to me it seems the La7 should be perked as well if only to small degree like the F4U-C.
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Originally posted by _Schadenfreude_
wall to wall temps
Nah, 66% 262s, with Temps, F4U-4s, Spit XIVs and the occasional La-7, P-51D or Fw190D-9 making up the rest.
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Originally posted by Red Tail 444
A well flown (ok, masterfully flown) P47D-11 or F4U-1 can handle any of the aforementioned rides.
Perk'm both!
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Originally posted by SpitLead
But, it was also I believe intended to be for those very high performance aircraft that one could purchase as a "reward" for scoring points.
A dynamic perk system based on usage will, more than problably, end with the overally best performing planes being perked most of the time.
There are those "reward" planes, like 262, that should remain always perked, but some others should be included in a perk-per-usage basis. Probably, this way La7 would keep perked 5 days out of 7, who knows ...
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A well flown (ok, masterfully flown) P47D-11 or F4U-1 can handle any of the aforementioned rides.
and John rambo can shoot down any 262 with his hand held M60 too!
Bozon
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Ok, the LaLa has power to burn -- but its 3 cannons have unreliable mounts and/or ballistics. The effective firing range makes the plane less deadly in the air than it looks on paper. That alone should pull it out of perk range, compared with all round planes like the pony and low end perk planes like the f4u1c
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Originally posted by Batz
Typos are typos…
but I meant what I said, US planes run. They all suck and are boring to fight (with few exceptions).
Those late war planes in which the p38l (they mostly run into the ground on suicide pork and auger “mishuns”) is one (it saw service about the same time as the d9 for instance) and should be perked.
Planes like the la7 etc... are fun to fight. In AH2 with just 21 min of fuel they can’t run far even if they wanted to.
Batz have you ever heard of the Wildcat and Hellcat how much running they do?
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It's the pilot who runs not the plane. If you want less running then stop whining and start training folks to fly their planes to the limit. Then and only then will you see less running. If it's a one on one then you should see very little running. Majority of the time they should be extending enough to allow for another merge and thats it. When it comes to 2 on 1 or more then yes sometimes extending a bit farther is needed. Only airframes with clear advantages in multiple areas should be perked. Stop whining and start training.
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I say that all planes be perked to a degree except the early war models. Of course if you do this then no one will play because any new player will not have enough perks to purchase anything other than the early war planes. However there is a bit of an upside to this and that would be If a player stuck with it long enough flying these early models my guess would be once they did have the points to fly some of the perked planes they would be terror in the skys.
Perk like this Example
P40B = 0
P40E = .50
P47D-11 = 1
and so on.
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Originally posted by simshell
Batz have you ever heard of the Wildcat and Hellcat how much running they do?
Was about to say the same thing. Perspective is a funny thing isn't it.
Was just saying to someone last night in AH2. I'm so sick of chasing boring 109's and 190's that won't engage unless alt odds E and the kitchen sink are in their favour.
And the constant HO's ..don't get me started.
As always he planes aren't the problem - it's the numbnuts holding the stick. And they fly all types.
And this is beta - wait until it's live
Redd
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The only way you'll perk my La-7 is to pry it out of my cold dead hands. -- C. Heston, raising old landing gear above his head
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PERK THEM ALL PERK THEM ALL PERK THEM ALL PERK THEM ALL
or get rid of that ridiculous 262 and 163. Then PERK THEM ALL .
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Perking all planes means only experienced players who kill consistantly more than they die will get higher quality planes. All those ace pilots driving the fastest, hottest planes would make it even harder for newbs to survive, thus driving them away before they can get to the really fun parts of Aces High. Perking all planes is a recipe for financial collapse.....
Or are you and your hundred ace quality friends planning on paying enough every month to keep AH afloat by yourselves?
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Since it seems to be the "vets" that want to perk all the rides how about perking just theirs? The vets seem to have all the knowledge and skill so lets see how they would end up spending perks for every bird they fly.
I don't see how it would be a problem considering they have so much flight time in all the AH birds. It should be a walk in the park for them. Lets even up the stakes and say everytime you get shot down that not only do you lose the X amount of perks to HT for the price of the bird but you also loose that same amount to the newbie who shot you down. Oh and if they shoot you down in a bird that is deemed less capable than yours they also get a perk modifier bonus for the kill. So HT gets their share of the profit and the newbie gets his/her share plus a bonus if they were in a less capable aircraft.
How about it vets are you up to it? Let the whines begin.
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1. I'm no ACE far from it.
2. I'm jesting about perking all planes this would in fact drive any new people away. That being said though i still believe that the 262 and 163 should either be removed or perked to 800 or 1,000 perks (not that this would slow down or stop the use by some of the Ace's out there).
3. Those who posted this thread more than likely already have enough perk points to buy the La7 ten times over.
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(with no apologies to that tree poem):
I think that I shall never see
a perk plane lovely as a free...
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La7 are nasty, but in the AH2 the fuel endurance at 100% throttle and MP is what? 9 Mins or so.
They are nasty when they are near, but they have only a no-escape-zone of a runway length or so. :lol
I think the usage of the La7 will drop somewhat with AH2. Then Nikis are used :lol
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Fuel burn in AH2 has defanged the La7 - took one up and had to head for base with 250 rnds of 20mm unfired - in the 4k to 8k range where it rocks the fuel burn is incredible - especially on wep.
Lots of P38's, quite a few 109's, some Nik's few Spits is what I saw over the weekend.
Very, very few captures - long hard fights between bases that went for ages.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
The logic of the NPA suggests that the La-7 should be perked at 3~5 points.
Since HT bases perks on game balance and not real life usage, there is no reason to perk the La7. The La7 does not in anyway negatively effect the game play in the arena. Sure, it can run fast but that's basically it and even that advantage is lost once it get above 16,000ft.
ack-ack
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Since it seems to be the "vets" that want to perk all the rides how about perking just theirs? The vets seem to have all the knowledge and skill so lets see how they would end up spending perks for every bird they fly.
I truly hope they perk the 51. I'd be one of the few in it for the majority of flying time. Even if the perk it "lightly" as suggested, I'd still acucmulate perks. So yes, perk the pony please!*
*disclaimer: Not claiming to be a vet, one should let others make that distinction.
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I see the point about perking the P51, but remember the importance of retaining new players. The pony, the La7, and the Dora allow beginning to intermediate players to literally stay in the game while they learn skills. I've been playing for 3 months, and I find I can participate using effective energy tactics in these "starter" mounts. If those planes were harder to get, the more demanding turnfighters would probably be just enough out of my skill's reach to leave me VERY discouraged. I almost gave up a few weeks ago, even with the "dweeb" planes.
Vets need to remember -- a hot fight with a skilled pilot is invigorating, but to make AH work long term you've got to keep the COMMUNITY going.
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Leave the perk system alone...it seems to be about right just the way it is. The La-7 is no uber-plane. There ARE no uber-planes...only uber-pilots.
Perk Levi.
Regards, Shuckins/Leggern