Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Kweassa on June 05, 2004, 01:21:35 AM
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A suggestive summarization of the "NPA" concept, after observing the conditions and tendencies of the Beta Arena:
1. Suggested changes in the value of previously perked planes
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Me262: 100 points
Me163B: 80 points
Ar234: 50 points
Tempest5: 30 points
Ta152H-1: 10 points
F4U-4: 10 points
F4U-1C: 8 points
Spitfire14: 5 points
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Synopsis on modified perk values
* The argument for the Ta152 and the Spit14 is already well known, as the MA environment heavily relies on massive and chaotic engagements referred to as 'furballs'. Spit14s are much too vulnerable to afford the expensive 60 point perk price as they aren't particularly fast at low altitudes.
The Spitfire Mk14 is roughly the equivalent of the Bf109G-10, Fw190D-9 and the P-51D, La-7 - both in historic time-line and performance. Recent observations in the perk-free Beta Arena has shown that the Spit14 is not a very popular plane as it would seem, for various reasons.
* It is relatively limited in maneuverability compared to its predecessors. The general appeal a "Spitfire" holds for many pilots is its fantastic maneuverabilty. While it is true that the Spit14 is probably one of the most maneuverable planes among contemporaries of its speed range, the differences in the management of the plane seems to make it feel almost inconsistent with the 'tradition' of former Spitfires.
* It is a wonderfully balanced plane of 1944, but posesses no extraordinary attirubte that shadows its contemporaries in any way. I would contend, that there is no logical reason to perk the Spit14 at such a high cost, while its contemporaries are unperked. It does not disturb balance, nor is it a plane of unconvetional performance. Therefore, the perk price should be drastically reduced.
* The same argument holds true for the F4U-1C, F4U-4 and the Ta152H. The F4U-1C was adequately subdued in its overabundance by perking it. While it would not make sense to perk a later model with higher performance at a smaller some, still the F4U-4 is at a very simular situation as the Spit14. It being perked, while its contemporaries, often superior in various areas of performance remains free, is illogical.
* A mere 8 point perk, was enough to bring down a plane that held 23% usage in its prime, to constant levels of 2%. Despite its prowess as a multi-functional fighter, 8 perks successfully limited its usage. I see no reason why simular perk rate would not stop a late-war plane from being overused. 10 points, seem to be an adeqaute price for both the F4U-4 and the Ta152H.
* The over abundance of Me163Bs near HQ fields is a well known disturbance. The relatively cheap price, despite its incredible performance, leads to the conclusion that the price should be increased.
* The costs for the Me262 and the Tempest has been suggested to be cut down to about 50%, based on the grounds that even a low perk price is adequate for regulating hoardes of planes(as been proven in the case of the C-hog - 8 points, neutralized the scourge phenomenon in its entirety!)
* It takes average pilots a long time to earn 100 points - in an hour, I earn about 5~6 fighter perk points when I'm doing good. Maybe 8~10 if lucky. It takes almost a week for me to earn 100 points. For average pilots, even 30~40 perk points are pretty much a heavy burden.
* As the vast number of people are always 'average', if the objective of perk prices is to regulate hoardes super performance planes breaking arena balance, even 30points for the Tempest, and 100 points for the 262, is enough.
As it is now, only a few people who can manage to earn massive perks in a day will ever get to fly the 262 or the Tempest in any kind of constant basis - people who can afford and shrug off maybe one, two losses of those expensive planes - and even they fly it only when it is particularly safe for them.
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2. Suggested application of perk points to previously unperked planes
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LA-7: 3 points
TYPHOON: 2 points
YAK9-U: 3 points
P-51D: 4 points
190D-9: 4 points
F4U-1D: 2 points
109G-10: 4 points
P-38L: 3 points
N1K2-J: 2 points
P-47D-40: 3 points
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Synopsis on new perk values
* This idea was presented during the discussion on the La-7, in a thread named "Community vote on the La-7". Perking the 10 suggested late war planes would shift the MA into a mid/late 1943 environment.
* Under this perk regime, the F4U-1, P-51B, La-5FN, and the P-47D-11 will be the four fastest fighters at low altitudes at military power, and F4U-1, P-51B, LA-5, Fw190A-8 would be the four fastest on emergency power.
* There's a much bigger chance to see people using various fighters, which before, have been ignored by a lot of average pilots for the reason that they weren't fast or maneuverable enough against 1944~'45 planes.
* For instance, the survivability of the P-47s(which was a significant fighter in reality and yet, has massive disadvantages under current MA conditions) will be vastly enhanced, as it will become one of the fastest non-perked planes.
* Also, many of the of the superp ground attacker planes with heavy ordnance loads and more proficiency as a pure fighter(such as the P-38 or the P-51) is suggested to be perked. The model D-25 would earn a major role as a fast, ground attacking fighter-bomber that is unperked.
* Initially, this suggestion had higher set perk prices for the La-7 and the N1K2-J, not to mention the consideration of perking the Spit9.
However, recent observations of AH2 has shown that the popularity of Spitfires and N1K2s, La-7s are reduced greatly. One of the reasons is that simply the pilots who preferred the Spit9, N1K2 or the La-7 in AH1, are currently flying "free planes" such as the Tempest.
However, I contend that the main reason is the changes brought forth by AH2 has effectively removed many of the reasons why these planes were so thoroughly overused in AH1.
* The La-7 was revised in fuel endurance to match historical consumption rates. Not only the new Beta Arena burns fuel at a higher rate, but also, the relative endurance of the La-7 was shortened. Meaning: The La-7 of AH1 was flying around too long. Now, in AH2, the La-7 is still potent as ever, except it has become a point-defense fighter with short flight ranges, which makes it unacceptable for many for offensive missions over enemy territory.
* The Spit9 and the N1K2-J, was significantly effected by the new flight model - as its maneuverability, paritcularly the capability to roll, was significantly(and historically) reduced.
When this change mixes up with the fact that the increased difficulty level of general gunnery, and the new black-out model, it has become quite clear that these planes are generally inadequate to face the true high-performance latewar planes which boast long range, excellent speeds, and good maneuverability at high speeds. Not to mention the fact that the threshold of maneuverability at extreme low speeds has been adequately reduced to according to more detailed flight physics.
* Thus, to me, it is quite clear that many people now feel that the Spit9 and N1K2, just isn't competitive enough for the average level of pilots to contend against latewar planes. The Spit9 now has no reason to be perked at all, while the N1K2-J has reduced prices suggested, with the only reason for perking it in the fact that it was not a historically abundant plane, though not necessarily 'rare'. (the enormous cannon load seems to be a fact worth consideration)
* In turn, the grounds for perking the P-51D, Fw190D-9, Bf109G-10 is even more clear. The natural reduction of La-7 usage has proven that when only one of the overused planes is reduced in usage, the rest flourish as it becomes more and more unmatched in pure performance. The P-51D, Fw190D-9 and Bf109G-10 is now in the Beta arena, the most threatening and abundant planes seen around.
* The P-51D fans would shift to the P-51B.. which has less ammo load and weaker jabo capabilities. Thus, despite the almost unnoticeable difference in general performance, its impact to the arena as an overused plane is reduced.
* By perking the -1D and -1C Corsairs, the F4U-1 start to shine out. Like in the previous case of the P-51D, it will of be limited in jabo capabilities, thus, reducing the impact to the arena.
* The La-5FN shares simular characteristics with the La-7, and is still among the fastest non-perked planes. However, the margin of speed difference between other fighters will be less than the case of La-7.
* Also, many planes previously unnoticed, will prove to be a competitve choice in the fact that they are free and unperked. The Bf109G-2, Bf109G-6, Fw190A-5, Fw190A-8, C.205 are all competitive and balanced planes, with smaller arena impact. I would not want to take out a Fw190A-5 or a Bf109G-2 when I would have to face vast numbers of P-51Ds or N1K2s or La-7s. My choice would be the Fw190D-9 or the Bf109G-10.
However, if my opposition is Spit9s, P-51Bs, P-47D-11s and La-5FNs.. taking out the Fw190A-5, A-8 or the 109G-2 would be a cool choice.
* The Yak-9U is self explanatory.
* The Typhoon as a perk would be puzzling for many, but in the matters of balance(virtually a non-perked, little bit slower Tempest) it is definately a perk material with my new suggested agenda. Quad Hispanos, superbly fast, more than 2000lbs Jabo loadouts. Also, it is to my knowledge, a 1944 Typhoon we have, which has solved almost all of the problems known in 1942 Typhoons.
* Another distinctly positive changes we can expect with the suggested new perks, is that some jabo planes which people have totally neglected before, have a chance to become a very appealing jabo choice, since the planes that were very fast+carried huge bomb loads, will be perked.
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Spit14 cheaper than the 152?! Are you insane?!
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Originally posted by GScholz
Spit14 cheaper than the 152?! Are you insane?!
He is probably basing that on historical usage and numbers because by perfromance the Spit XIV will eat a Ta152 for lunch below 30,000ft.
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Yup.
There's a real dilemma in perking planes that were historically rare, but of no extraordinary performance advantage in what MA environment has to offer.
Basically if you perk them too high, nobody's gonna use them even when one has enough perk point amassed. Take the 50 point F4U-4 as example: it's a great plane, but nothing extraordinary. Nobody uses them. Its cost-effectiveness is way too low.
However, if the points are too low, it will be overabundant. Ofcourse, its limited effectiveness won't make it a balance-busting problem, but it is seen way too often to be considered anything 'rare'.
So taking that into consideration, the Spit14, a historically common fighter, and in the performance ranges of the Bf109G-10 or the La-7, has no reason to be perked so high. It is suggested at that low price, basically in the same level as its contemporaries. While the Ta152 is deadmeat at MA conditions, its slightly more expensive(but still cheaper than used to be), to dissuade the people a teensey bit, to keep it a rare fighter.
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The perk system is fine as it is imo.
I don't understand the desire to "make things" cheaper or to perk planes like the la7.
The incentive to fly earlier planes comes with the high perk values. Should you want to fly a 262 get out of the p51ds, la7s, spit 9s nikis etc...
Back in AH1 under my other game nic and when I flew regularly I had around 11000 perks are rarely ever used them.
I remember sorties in 205s and G-2s earning near 40 perks. Under your "budget" scheme 1 of those sorties earned me 8 spit 14 deaths.
So please HT there is no need to revamp perk values. You may want to take a look at eny values and do some tweaking but we don’t need cheaper and more perk planes in the main.
The only planes that I would suggest adding to the perk system are the G-10 (really a K-4 as confirmed by Pyro in another thread), and the p51D (most “over used” plane in the main.) and maybe the D9 (I honestly don’t see a lot of these but to be consistent why not). I would argue to also include the p38l and p47D-40. However, at least with the p38l, there is no other variant for p38 fans to fly so it’s not something that “should”
be perked.
The La7 has been hit hard by the fuel mod and by having its fuel consumption re-worked. Its usage should drop compared to AH1.
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Batz, the connotations behind this logic of perking a certain set of planes, has multiple reasons than just performance issues, which seems to be what you're implying.
Yes, the performance issue is one basis, but its not because the section of suggested planes are necessarily unbalancing performance-wise.
Rather, the main purpose and logic lies in shaping the overall arena into a certain presupposed timeline where all individuals can try all planes without having to be exceptionally skilled, as well as returning some of the historic roles to the hangar queens, and achieving a more dynamic gameplay during the process.
The underlying time-line/premise is one of late 1943. In comparison, the current MA can be viewed as late 1944 or early 1945.
One specific objective I have envisioned, is to diverge the "fighter role" from the "bomber role".
The blandness of plane choices and tactics in MA gameplay is in essence, not something about "furballs" and "strats" - but rather something about which section of planes are made effective by the arena conditions, and which are rendered obsolete. As it is, the current late '44~early '45 condition renders most of the midwar planes utterly useless, in the fact that most of AH bombers and specialized attack planes are outclassed in the very own category which it should excell in - namely, the jabo role.
There is absolutely no reason to take a Bf110G-2 or a Mosquito and use it, because the survivability of these planes, as well as their effectiveness in payload is vastly inferior to the planes such as the Chog, P-51D, P-38L and etc etc. The effectiveness of these planes are so limited in that the drive behind choosing these planes in an attack role relies on some odd individual's taste or craving to make an eccentric mission or so.
IMO the jabo role, is another very important aspect of WW2 combat, as much as the GV aspect and A2A combat. The situations and conditions which the players have to realize, when the jabo role is given back to those planes, promises some very interesting situations previously unseen in the MA. For instance, a band of P-51s or P-38s can carry enough ordnance to flatten a field all by themselves. Characteristically speaking, the "2k-loaders", so to say.
However, when these section of fighters are limited, albeit slightly by perks, people are influenced to choose the unperked section of planes ranging from 1942 to 1943. They rarely carry more than 1000lbs(or in the form of 2x 500lbs) as primary payload, maybe a few extra small bombs and rockets added.
Not only is that kind of ordnance more typical of real-life WW2 conditions, but it is also more beneficial for the gameplay of AH, in the fact that a specialized jabo plane can carry more ordnance than the typical midwar plane. Also, the smaller overall payload means reduced effectiveness in destructive power a certain number of fighter planes hold.
Effectively, when 4~5 latewar planes can flatten all the FHs in a small field, it would take double the number of fighters if the gamers are inclined to choose a midwar plane. Adding to the fact, that the smaller/fewer bombs means they need to practice more precision in bombing techniques.
In other words, with the suggested regime, the gamers have a significant choice in variety concerning gameplay, regarding offensive missions, as to whether they would take 1) mid-war fighter planes armed with smaller payload, which needs more pilot numbers, cooperation, and precision... or if they should take the 2)specialized jabo planes, which lacks in survivability, but carries a much more impressive payload(by 1943 standards, not the 1945 standards of something like the P-47D-40).
How should an attacking force divide their forces? What is adequate ratio of fighters and ground attackers when a certain number of pilots start attacking a base? How visible would the inefficiency be, when people choose to up nothing but fighters to attack and suppress a field to increase territory? Will the gamers come to realize a constant number of jabos are needed to bring maximum efficiency in attacking an enemy field, rather than rely on mid-war planes with puny payload?
Those are all tactical possibilities and questions, which under the current MA conditions, is a non-issue, because there is no point in taking an inferior plane to do the task.
The situation implied by introduction of perks to the late war 'section' of planes, applies the same to the defensive side. Mid-war fighters are noticeably slower. It is easier to intercept a bomb-carrying Spit9 with another Spit9, than to intercept of bomb-carrying P-51D with another P-51D. For a long time, people have been frustrated by the 'lameness' of people taking the fastest planes which also carry the most ordnance, and then simply flying max speed into an enemy field, blowing past defenses or interception attempts.
So as the defending side, there are more tactical choices and situations, if the conditions are varied(by limiting the late-war planes). What's the best way to intercept an attack? Will the enemies come in with a fighter force? Or do they have a separate jabo force coming in? Should we try to ignore fighters and get to the jabos and shoot them down first?
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In reality, the bare essentials of gameplay is not changed. However, the specific method of how the gameplay manifests itself can be changed - different variety of planes, different tactical conditions, different choices. And that is a worthy goal in my opinion. Worthy enough to perk the late war fighters. At the very best, optimistic scenario imaginable, it might be able to motivate people enough to organize themselves better and try out many different varieties of planes effective for the task(which, is made possible since the single class of late war fighters, are limited(not necessarily 'removed') a bit).
This is only but a single reason of the many reasons I am implying such a perk system be set. Another reason, in pure performance perspective, is the overall survivability of mid-war planes going higher, will promote more variety. 8 points made a plane with 23% usage come down to 2%. How much will 3 points bring down those planes with 10% usage? If the usage is reduced to 3~5%, then I view that as a great success.
If the 3 point perks can knock off about 50% of usage in the "Big Four(Big Five, according to my analysis, actually), it means 20% of the total gaming population will be using something other than those late war fighters(up to now, 40% of the total gaming population were using only four planes) - presumed to be the 'next best' mid-war fighters. Effectively, that itself is a balanced variety - we have SOME late war planes, flying with SOME mid-war planes together, at the same time.
The reduction in super fast fighters, means a considerable amount of planes flying around will be mid-war planes. Once this is accomplished, planes like the P-47, Fw190F-8, Mosquito, Bf110G all have a much better chance in survival, which may be motivation for people to start using different planes for different tasks. The Mosquito for example, can run for a long time before its caught, when the opponent is a mere Fw190A-5 or a Bf109G-2, as long as it initially has some speed. It actually becomes within top 10 of the fastest planes on deck, if the late-war section is perked.
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AH2, by implementing more believable, likely, and realistic conditions in ground warfare, has boosted the importance of ground forces. In some terrains with lot of woods, the forest cover cuts the efficiency of attacks against impending GV columns to such a degree, that an equal force of defending GVs are needed, and to be used, to drive out the attackers.
However, most of the times in a bare terrain, GVs are still more or less dead-meat. Even if you miss a bit, when you have a 2k load of ordnance and 10 x 250lbs worth of rockets, you're gonna at least damage something even if you are shot down.
But imagine if the perks are applied. GV busting, for many average pilots like me, is generally a very dangerous job. Am I willing to risk constant bleeding of 3 points by taking up P-38Ls and such? Die five times in a P-38L and that is already 15 points wasted. No, I would definately take either an alternate fighter-bomber(preferably the P-47D-25), or a specialized attack plane like the A-20 Havoc or the Il-2 to face GVs.
Overall, the survivability of GVs also increase, as the impact of late-war fighters are reduced. A large ground force, even without sufficient aircover, is a very troubling enemy action to deal with if you don't have sufficient defense lines of GVs formed. At least, that's how it should be, which isn't, because if someone is crazy enough to head-first into a Tiger with bombs and rockets blazing, he will destroy it. It doesn't take precision, nor practice. All it takes is enough respawns, to stop GVs. At least, with the heavy ordnance carriers, that is.
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There are many more reasons such as above, to promote the perking of late-war planes. I do not wish to entirely remove them from the game. I only wish to reduce their MA impact, and let the reduced amount of impact be spread apart between those planes that previously had no purpose of existence, in the old MA.
In the worst case scenario, the gameplay will be entirely the same. What's there to lose?
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AH2 Beta is full of Spit XIVs, BTW, much better suited for the "massive and chaotic engagements" than Ta152.
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Sounds good; Kweassa
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So please HT there is no need to revamp perk values. You may want to take a look at eny values and do some tweaking but we don't need cheaper and more perk planes in the main.
The only planes that I would suggest adding to the perk system are the G-10 (really a K-4 as confirmed by Pyro in another thread), and the p51D (most ever used plane in the main.) and maybe the D9 (I honestly don't see a lot of these but to be consistent why not). I would argue to also include the p38l and p47D-40. However, at least with the p38l, there is no other variant for p38 fans to fly so it's not something that should
be perked.
The La7 has been hit hard by the fuel mod and by having its fuel consumption re-worked. Its usage should drop compared to AH1.
Another thing to think about, is that the ENY and OBJ values has practically no meaning, and no impact whatsoever to many, if not all, of the "average grade" pilots of AH.
You yourself describe that you had some eleven thousand(!!) perks at one point. Obviously when 'cashing in' such abundance of perks the ENY value hardly serves any other purpose than self-gratification in one's own accomplishments - that's basically the mind set of a veteran, I salute you :)
However, to the most of average guys, there's no specific purpose or fascination with a certain plane type. Although I personally consider myself a "Luftwaffle" :D since my fascination and enjoyment comes from specifically the Bf109, most others react on which plane is the most efficient and effective a2a fighter, in regards to one's own skill level.
Basically, to put it otherwise an average pilot who loves Spitfires likes AH because he can fight many enemies alongside many friends, and in the types of fights his skill level/mind set is set upon, the Spitfire is to him, the most effective fighter of them all - while it's generally a notch slower than most planes, it's easy to handle, and easy to kill with once opportunity presents itself.
Basically, even if he gets no perks at all, by using the Spitfire, he will still use that plane, because at his current level of 'growth' as a AH pilot, that's the plane that can earn him kills.
The ENY and OBJ values remotely effect only some of the veterans who scale their level of achievement by the perks he earn in a single sortie - a some 10~20 perks in a single sortie, by using a mid-war plane which he chose according to taste alone, is a testament to his skill. However, to the rest it's meaningless and a non-issue.
And ever since AH numbers grew, the impact of the presence of the veterans, have been decreasing. The veterans do not influence AH MA any longer. It's the vast majority of the "meek", who inherited this "Earth" :) And to influence them, the only effective way to bend a curve of overusage, is to directly link it with the income/loss aspect of the game.
Even if the perks are applied very cheap, if there's something the people can spend the perks regularly upon, then the importance of perks ways higher to the average flyers. 3 points, even for the most newbie of all newbies, is not a hard point to get one's hand on. Go HO a few planes and he probably earns some points in 20 minutes. However, it will not be cheap enough to continuously waste away in foolish flying, like drops of water ultimately carves the stone. And only that, a direct perkage, can make an average pilot think twice before he joins the ranks of overusaged plane pilots.
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I'm also for this idea.
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Spits for only 5 perks?
Screw that!
There are too many spits in the game as it is. I say perk em all and perk em higher.
And now after flying them for a while I would have to agree that the La7 should be perked as well.
and the F4u1-c probably shouldnt be perked at all with its current flight modeling
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I always liked Kweassa's perk scheme.
As it is now, perks are useless. most players amass thousands of them without real use. If your have the "top of the line" of your variant perked you'll have something to earn perks for. 109 pilots will want the G10, 190 pilots will want the D9/152, Spits will want 14, P51 will want the D, Hogs will want the -4, Jugs will want the D40, La will want the 7...
and making it light perk will enable fighting with it without risk of going perk-bankropt.
The P38 is still a problem for light perking due to inavailability of earlier variants.
Another effect worth considering is that if so many planes are perked, generally perked planes will not be such an attractive trophy. Try to fly with a kill-me sign like "spit14" or "Ta152" or "tempest" in the main. you know what happens.
Bozon
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I dont care what other perk scheme is used but there is NO way ANY spit should be only 5 perks.
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On current perk planes I couldn't agree more with your pricing Kweassa.
However I am in direct opposition on your idea of perking current planes in ah.
However I don't have to worry about it because I do not believe HT will ever perk the pony. Without the pony perked your whole price scheme falls apart in pieces.
Think again.
La7 = 2, Typhoon = 2 109G10 = 2
P38, nik, & p47 are much TOO slow to perk. Leave the yak out of it also. With AH2's new fuel mod its only good for a quick hop anyway.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Another thing to think about, is that the ENY and OBJ values has practically no meaning, and no impact whatsoever to many, if not all, of the "average grade" pilots of AH.
You yourself describe that you had some eleven thousand(!!) perks at one point. Obviously when 'cashing in' such abundance of perks the ENY value hardly serves any other purpose than self-gratification in one's own accomplishments - that's basically the mind set of a veteran, I salute you :)
However, to the most of average guys, there's no specific purpose or fascination with a certain plane type. Although I personally consider myself a "Luftwaffle" :D since my fascination and enjoyment comes from specifically the Bf109, most others react on which plane is the most efficient and effective a2a fighter, in regards to one's own skill level.
Basically, to put it otherwise an average pilot who loves Spitfires likes AH because he can fight many enemies alongside many friends, and in the types of fights his skill level/mind set is set upon, the Spitfire is to him, the most effective fighter of them all - while it's generally a notch slower than most planes, it's easy to handle, and easy to kill with once opportunity presents itself.
Basically, even if he gets no perks at all, by using the Spitfire, he will still use that plane, because at his current level of 'growth' as a AH pilot, that's the plane that can earn him kills.
I never "cashed in". I never flew perks planes. They were only gone when I quit.
It seems that you assume that "perk planes" are something the spit pilot is missing out on. He isn’t. If really wants to fly one he can choose planes that earn him the perks to fly it. If not, so what?
There's not a "lack of perk planes" in the main. The whole system was designed to keep these planes rare. Making their perk cost of little value means they will be less rare.
Have you thought that the reason those planes that get the most use earn the least perks is because that is how HT designed it?
The Chog was perked because Pyro couldn’t adjust its eny value any more.
The ENY and OBJ values remotely effect only some of the veterans who scale their level of achievement by the perks he earn in a single sortie - a some 10~20 perks in a single sortie, by using a mid-war plane which he chose according to taste alone, is a testament to his skill. However, to the rest it's meaningless and a non-issue.
Oh that’s a lot of nonsense. Most "vets" you see in earlier variants aren’t flying them "for the perks". If so I would have burned through mine several times. Most could careless and fly the planes they enjoy. Who cares if the newb doing the "mishun" thing ever earns enough to afford his F4U-4? If he "desires to fly one he will step out of the p51d and jump in a p40 or some other plane. The choice is his.
And ever since AH numbers grew, the impact of the presence of the veterans, have been decreasing. The veterans do not influence AH MA any longer. It's the vast majority of the "meek", who inherited this "Earth" :) And to influence them, the only effective way to bend a curve of overusage, is to directly link it with the income/loss aspect of the game.
I really don’t know what you are going on about here. Perk values have nothing to do with "veterans". They have to deal with the planes the player chooses. The cost of the perk plane is irrelevant in that each player has the same opportunity to earn as many as he can get. Whether he chooses to or not is up to him.
Even if the perks are applied very cheap, if there's something the people can spend the perks regularly upon, then the importance of perks ways higher to the average flyers. 3 points, even for the most newbie of all newbies, is not a hard point to get one's hand on. Go HO a few planes and he probably earns some points in 20 minutes. However, it will not be cheap enough to continuously waste away in foolish flying, like drops of water ultimately carves the stone. And only that, a direct perkage, can make an average pilot think twice before he joins the ranks of overusaged plane pilots.
Cheaper perks = more perk planes flying about in the main.
Higher the perk value = less perk planes flying about in the main. That’s a good thing and shows the perk system works as designed.
It will always be harder for the new guy or the less skilled guy to earn perks. But if he wants or desires to fly a perk plane he can do what every one else did over the past 3 years or so since the perk system was introduced. By landing his kills and not dying. He can increase the rate at which he accumulates perks by flying planes that earn more per sortie.
If every guy flying the top 5 planes in AH can get an F4U-4 or Temp or Spit 14 for 10 perks it would suck.
Just listen to what folks are saying now about perk planes in the AH2 beta.
I think perk system is fine as is and as the plane set develops I can see more planes being added to the perk list. Other then that don’t fix what isn’t broke.
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You forgot
190A8
190A5
If you're going to perk the Typhoon then perk these 190s.
Of course, I'd prefer HTC to set the perk values, I don't agree with perk planes and all it would do is force people into non-perk planes. I get tired of all the luftweenies wanting to perk the RAF metal.
Support my new perk Agenda:
Perk 109G6, 109G10, 190A5, 190A8, 190D9
These planes are going to be the new La7 in AH2 ;)
:) Annoying eh? But Kweassa doesn't want to perk the planes he flies.
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How the nik2 is not perked is amazing. almost 900 cannon rounds, climbs quick, flys fast, good fuel load. And they are everywhere in the MA.
But to Fly a C-hog I have to pay 10 perks to get half the rounds of cannon, and what seems only half the fuel range.
I remember reading a post that they perked the c-hog because of the number of them that would be up. If that the case then I hardly see f4's compared the the likes of the niki, la7, and spit 9.
I'd like to see the c-hog freed from perks or the aforementioned three planes perked.
This whine has been brought to u and paid for by;
Hog anti discrimination league
and
The C-hog de-perkulation team:aok
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
I dont care what other perk scheme is used but there is NO way ANY spit should be only 5 perks.
Perk all US Navy planes they're just ugly :D
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Perk point costs has nothing to do with history, numbers in service, when they were introduced etc. It's simply a balancing tool in the MA.
http://www.hitechcreations.com/ahhelp/perks.html
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Originally posted by GScholz
Perk point costs has nothing to do with history, numbers in service, when they were introduced etc. It's simply a balancing tool in the MA.
http://www.hitechcreations.com/ahhelp/perks.html
It also depends on what country you fly for.
I fly Bishop. Bishops have a lot of RAF squads. I perhaps see about 10 Typhoons every tour, whereas I see hundreds of 190s and 109s. So, apart from the N1K2, P51, Spit9 and La7, the most planes I see are 109s and 190s but I don't want it 'balancing' because I realise there are a lot of Luftwaffe squads over in Rook/Nitland. Whereas someone in Rook/Nitland might see a lot of RAF planes and then start whines to balance the arena for their own personal satisfaction.
Hehe Straffo, perk the US Navy planes; they are ugly indeed! :)
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Originally posted by Karnak
He is probably basing that on historical usage and numbers because by perfromance the Spit XIV will eat a Ta152 for lunch below 30,000ft.
I believe Perk Values are a Game Play issue and nothing more.
So historical usage shouldnt factor in at all.
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Replicant
You forgot
190A8
190A5
If you're going to perk the Typhoon then perk these 190s.
Of course, I'd prefer HTC to set the perk values, I don't agree with perk planes and all it would do is force people into non-perk planes. I get tired of all the luftweenies wanting to perk the RAF metal.
Why? The Typhoon we have is a 1944 plane without any of its initial problems of 1942, that carries a very heavy ordnance load and respectively used as premiere ground attack/base suppression fighter. Not to mention that it is the fastest unperked plane on deck, heavily armed, and also the fifth most used plane of them all.
Neither the Fw190A-8 nor the Fw190A-5 comes close to the Typhoon in any way possible; arena usage, impact, ground attack, A2A role, performance, and historical timeline all together.
If the Fw190A-8 carried 2000lbs, and runs 380mph at deck in clean configuration, and sees fifth most usage then yeah, I'd want to see it perked.
Annoying eh? But Kweassa doesn't want to perk the planes he flies.
Quite contrary. As the MA is, the only competitive 109 for my personal skill level is the Bf109G-10, since it can run away and let me live. However, I would not mind seeing it get perked. It's suggested at 3 points. It's not like I have to work my prettythang off to amass 200 perks in 6 months to fly it. I wouldn't be able to fly it all the time, but the price is good enough to indulge with it once in a while, maybe one G-10 sortie in every five~ten sorties in 'lesser' 109s.
Since, the whole 'section' of the late war fighters being perked, will produce people in simular situations as me, and I will usually fight other people in mid-war planes.
These planes are going to be the new La7 in AH2
They never were, and they never could be. The stats over the years clearly show what planes people fly and what they aren't attracted to. I didn't bring up these values arbitrarily - it's a result of studying the usage/kill percentage stats of some 46 tours.
I fly Bishop. Bishops have a lot of RAF squads. I perhaps see about 10 Typhoons every tour, whereas I see hundreds of 190s and 109s. So, apart from the N1K2, P51, Spit9 and La7, the most planes I see are 109s and 190s but I don't want it 'balancing' because I realise there are a lot of Luftwaffe squads over in Rook/Nitland. Whereas someone in Rook/Nitland might see a lot of RAF planes and then start whines to balance the arena for their own personal satisfaction.
Again, that's not what the actual stats suggest. There has been minor shifts in usage levels of various planes, with the introduction of "specialized" maps such as BigIsles, where the tendencies in general plane usage differs from 'normal' maps.
However, the Typhoon, in most other tours, is wedged in the 5%~7% usage, which is clearly higher than most of the other planes. Remind you, that the four most used planes each show 10% usage, and the fifth, Hawker Typhoon is lodged between 5%~7%. 45% of usage is with only five planes. The sixth, seventh most used planes come in at 2~3%. The Typhoon, sees almost double the usage than the plane directly behind it. And the "Big Four" see double the usage of Typhoons.
If there indeed many RAF squads in Bishops, then it'd actually be more benevolent for you people, as clearly the perkage applied to latewar planes would raise the probability of less capable(mostly less fast) planes appearing as your main opponents for the Spit9. Or does the RAF squads necessarily need a plane that carries 2000lbs ordnance load, quad hispanos, and outruns every other unperked fighter on deck, to be competitive?
Or, is 3 perk points really that harsh that it renders normal operations impossible?
Your suggesting a nuance that I am biased, which is clearly insulting, as I am not. My squaddies fly P-51s mainly. Other close friends fly variety of many planes which are suggested to be perked, and I myself fly a plane which I think should be perked.
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Perk point costs has nothing to do with history, numbers in service, when they were introduced etc. It's simply a balancing tool in the MA.
I believe Perk Values are a Game Play issue and nothing more.
So historical usage shouldnt factor in at all.
..
Except that 1) arena balance and impact, is 2) usually associated with general performance, 3) which is in most cases in historical relation of the timeline the fighters were introduced.
Let's not pretend to be naive - fighters that unbalance the arena are generally high performance planes which offer very high qualities in at least one of the many attributes a fighter holds.
The main, "official" component of logic behind perking planes is arena impact and usage. Except it doesn't operate alone. There are actually three main factors to consider;
a) arena impact/balance,
b) performance,
c) timeline.
Some of the fighters are a clear example with all three factors converging; take the Me262 for instance. It is perked so high because; 1) it is high-tech, late war machine, 2) which boasts absolute advantage in one of the most important aspects of combat, 3) which appeals to many people to thoroughly abuse it every chance they get.
Those three factors don't operate independantly. In a sense, historical usage and timeline, becomes an important factor as any.
Other planes don't necessarily fit all of the three factors, but sometimes even one or two of the factors is enough to draw high usage.
* The Spitfire 5 and 9 posesses the factor a), but does not involve itself with b) and c). However, in an unquantifiable form the overall balance of its attributes as a pure A2A fighter made it a favorable choice for many.
* The N1K2 has a) and c), but does not have b).
* The Chog is also a) and c), but while its performance was not anything overly impressive, its overall balance as a fast, multi-role fighter, actually made it the most used plane of entire AH history upto date. It is a clear example that even if a plane lacks some of the factors( factor b), in the case of the Chog), that it can be overused, and it would be considered as perk material.
Then by the same logic, no reason why the late-war fighters shouldn't be perked. All of the factors are worth consideration, and none of them should be dismissed lightly.
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The Typhoon we have has a 1944 4-blade propellor and 1943 bubble canopy. Tail strengtheners were incorporated in late 1942/early 1943. Performance wise it is still a 1942 plane.
The 190s can carry ordnance and gun package and the superior roll rate should deem it perked if the Typhoon is. You mention speed as being a perk issue, well I'd class roll rate as a perk issue, so perk the 190s! :) Typhoon has worst roll rate in the game and poor performance above 16k.
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There's not a "lack of perk planes" in the main. The whole system was designed to keep these planes rare. Making their perk cost of little value means they will be less rare.
Have you thought that the reason those planes that get the most use earn the least perks is because that is how HT designed it?
The Chog was perked because Pyro couldn't adjust its eny value any more.
What I am saying is people don't care how meager amount of perks the most use planes earn - they rarely take notice of ENY or OBJ values in the first place. HT and Pyro may have tried adjusting some of the values hoping that it would be used as a means of reducing over-abundancy, except it didn't work. The Chog as yoy mentioned, is exactly that. If ENY or OBJ values mattered in the first place, its usage would have dropped the moment Pyro adjusted them lower. Except it didn't work - no matter how low it was set, people still used it too much. So the only way to apply a limit, was by artificial means - perking it.
Lowering ENY or OBJ values does nothing to balance the arena. It's wishful thinking that the average pilots would actually care about certain group of numbers slapped onto a plane. (The only numbers that ever effect it, is their price).
Oh that's a lot of nonsense. Most "vets" you see in earlier variants aren't flying them "for the perks". If so I would have burned through mine several times. Most could careless and fly the planes they enjoy. Who cares if the newb doing the "mishun" thing ever earns enough to afford his F4U-4? If he "desires to fly one he will step out of the p51d and jump in a p40 or some other plane. The choice is his.
Again, you must try to understand. Your way of thinking is the "veteran mindset". If AH was economics, your views on perks would be something like laissez-faire. It doesn't work that way.
The idealism you hold is this:
............................
There's a wonderful, powerful new plane on the shelf, but it's expensive. People, see the plane. They want to have a go with it. So, they will try and become good pilots. Better pilots. They will work hard and earn perks if they want, and if they can't do that - oh well, it's their own fault.
............................
As I said, that's laissez-faire. It doesn't work that way.
As a skilled veteran you are, you're not thinking how the majority of pilots that have trouble earning perk points would feel. No matter how they work hard, how they try different planes with higher ENY settings, some people just don't earn enough perks fast enough. It could be months before they ever get to try their first Me262, after they join this game. It's not because they're all dweebs that they can't fly such highly perked planes. As a result, instead of being motivated to become better and collect perks, they give up the whole deal.
Right, it's their own loss? Except its also a loss for the game and the developers - all the effort put into making a plane and what - some 10 people fly it in a 24 hour period?
I really don't know what you are going on about here. Perk values have nothing to do with "veterans". They have to deal with the planes the player chooses. The cost of the perk plane is irrelevant in that each player has the same opportunity to earn as many as he can get. Whether he chooses to or not is up to him.
Again, what I am implying by the 'veteran' comment, is that the "veteran's views" of the perk system, like one you hold, is a minority opinion.
The system is not infallable - everybody has the same opportunity, but due to differences in play time, skill, motivation and various many factors some will never get to fly a certain plane they would like to try out. Lowering the prices is to extend the opportunity for people who try - notice that even when reduced to 50%(as in 100 for the 262, or 30 for the Tempest5) is not a small sum as you may think. It's not like I'm offering it for free. People will have to put effort to fly those highly perked planes, except this time, the price range would be more reasonable.
Think of it this way - those planes are like Porsche. Does an everyday wage-worker have any chance in his lifetime that he'd ever become a Porsche owner? Oh yes, the rich and famous would tell you "the opportunity is equal for all. So try to earn money and you'll be oneday a Porsche driver".
How about the Porsche dropped prices by 50%? Would that make every other laborer a Porsche driver, making them overabundant? No - it was initially very expensive. Even if the price is cut down to 50% its still very expensive. But at least, it would seem a much more reasonable goal to try for it.
(Continued)
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(continued)
Cheaper perks = more perk planes flying about in the main.
Higher the perk value = less perk planes flying about in the main. That's a good thing and shows the perk system works as designed.
Oh the design is good. That's why I'm not asking something like an RPS. But the outcome differs on how the perks are set on which standards. The system works, but the commanding standards can be wrong.
Like for instance the Spit14 - is it any better than a La-7 in typical MA conditions? Or a Bf109G-10? So who decided in the first place that "there should be less and less Spit14s in the MA"? Okay, the developers did. But is that standard acceptable or logical?
Just ask many RAF enthusiasts how they feel about the Spit14. They view it as unfair. And yes, it is unfair. The intentions for HTC may have been good. We remember how people used to fear and jive how incredibly powerful the Spit14 may be, if it was brought to AH, after seeing the announcements and screenshots of it. The HTC staff are firm people, but surely they'd have seen the response of many people. They probably thought it would be too good a plane, so that's why it's perked so high. I mean, as it is, after some years the Spit14 came into AH, is there any other reason you can think of that it's perked so highly?
No. My contention is the standards and basis for perking a plane like the Spit14, was wrong in the first place, and for that result many RAF fans are feeling deprived - when other contemporary planes like the La-7, Bf109G-10, Fw190D-9 and the P-51D run rampant, free of charge.
The system's good alright. But the standards should be changed, if it needs to be. And I say it needs to be.
It will always be harder for the new guy or the less skilled guy to earn perks. But if he wants or desires to fly a perk plane he can do what every one else did over the past 3 years or so since the perk system was introduced. By landing his kills and not dying. He can increase the rate at which he accumulates perks by flying planes that earn more per sortie.
Except when he feels that the price is so unnecessarily high, he'd just give up the whole deal and stay "newguy-ish". Is that their own loss and doesn't concern us?
Actually, it's everyone's loss. People have been noticing throughout the years how the "learning rate" of newbies have seemingly slowed down. When AH was small, people adapted quickly and learned to become better. Everybody was helpful. Now, the "society" of AH has changed. People remain anonymous. The conditions are in many ways much more harsh to the would-be-learners than it used to be. "Noobs" stay as "noobs" longer than they used to nowadays.
The end result? Veterans and regulars complain every day every minute how there are same planes around. How the "n00bs" and "dweebs" never learn, and how the game is so wonked that being stupid and suicidal pays off and etc etc.
The motivation works bothways. Sometimes high challenges motivate people, but sometimes it demoralizes them. And that kind of behavior, ultimately makes the AH less fun. It's a social thing - it's not always the individual at fault.
If every guy flying the top 5 planes in AH can get an F4U-4 or Temp or Spit 14 for 10 perks it would suck.
Why? Why does that suck?
Every other guy flying the top 5 planes in AH can get a 109G-10 or a Fw190D-9 for free. Heck, the very reason there's a "top five planes" in the first place, is every other guy got a La-7 or a P-51 or a Typhoon for free!!
Now, if every other guy gets a Tempest or 262 for free, that really would suck. But I'm willing to bet my earlobes that a 30 point, or a 100 point perk, is still plenty high enough to keep those certain planes, out of reach for lazy people.
Not to mention, that the perks newly suggested to be applied to previously free planes, would effect the "every other guy flying the top 5 plane" part of your logic ineffective. There won't be a "top 5 plane", because all the top five planes(well, three of the five actually...), ARE the perk planes.
Just listen to what folks are saying now about perk planes in the AH2 beta.
I am. They hate free Tempests and rampant free Ar234s. I never said that they should be cheap in the same level as others.
I also hear, what the folks are saying about the P-51s and 109s and 190s now. There are zillions of them flying around. The La-7 was setback in flight range, and rendered vastly unpopular in comparision to AH1. There's practically no stopping the Runstangs and Hunstangs and 109 rocket sleds now. Just listen to what Tilt has to say about this - balance cannot be achieved unless the whole section of problematic fighters remain checked.
You think its bad now? At least the Tempests can catch the P-51s. Now, after AH2 launches and the Tempies and Sp14s are perked again, who's gonna catch the P-51s and G-10s and D-9s then?
I think perk system is fine as is and as the plane set develops I can see more planes being added to the perk list. Other then that don't fix what isn't broke.
The system's fine. I never said the perk system was broke, nor to fix the system itself.
I'm saying the operating agenda of the system, is broke, and the agenda must be fixed.
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The 190s can carry ordnance and gun package and the superior roll rate should deem it perked if the Typhoon is. You mention speed as being a perk issue, well I'd class roll rate as a perk issue, so perk the 190s! Typhoon has worst roll rate in the game and poor performance above 16k.
Then why's the Typhoon usage double the both Fw190A-type usage combined, for more than 20 tours straight since it was incorporated into the ranks of the "Big Five"?
Clearly, the Arena, doesn't agree with you it seems Replicant.
Or, is this really arbitrary as you're arguing it is?
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Then why's the Typhoon usage double the both Fw190A-type usage combined, for more than 20 tours straight since it was incorporated into the ranks of the "Big Five"?
Clearly, the Arena, doesn't agree with you it seems Replicant.
Or, is this really arbitrary as you're arguing it is?
The only person who can change Perk Planes is HTC, not you, so give up while you're ahead.
I don't agree with perk planes fullstop and with the fuel multiplier as it is in AH2 there's going to be less of non-US planes anyway so your perk plane agenda is flawed.
Plus if you perk one plane players will simply move onto the next non-perk plane until that is over used and that then becomes perk. In time all planes would be perked if it followed that trend.
I'll await what HTC have to say, not you.
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I think the AR234 should be alot less maybe as low as 8 since after the 1.10 changes it's been turned into a hanger queen and pretty much useless as is.
So a lower perk value there might help to see it around more often. Can't recall last time I saw one actually on a bomb run other then low level airfield passes.
...-Gixer
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What I am saying is people don't care how meager amount of perks the most use planes earn - they rarely take notice of ENY or OBJ values in the first place.
So? How is this a problem? If they cared about perk planes they know what they need to do to earn the perks to fly them.
So what if they don’t care?
Lowering ENY or OBJ values does nothing to balance the arena.
That’s here nor there. What it does do is keep perk planes rare as it was designed to do. With 60% of the arena flying the top 5 planes the odds of them accumulating enough perks to fly perk planes regularly is slim. That’s a good thing because we don’t need any more timid runners. We need more of those planes folks like to fight in.
Planes like the la7, Spits, Yaks, etc... Not Temp or F4U-4s running about boring every one.
That’s the problem with the p51d now. It dies more then any other plane in those suicide pork and augers “mishuns” the rest of the time it’s running. Put these same types of pilots in cheap perks and the arena doesn’t get better, it gets more timid (oh got to protect my precious perk plane) and more boring.
Folks won’t fly temps and Spit 14s to run down 51s, that’s to risky they will use them to club baby seals.
Again, you must try to understand. Your way of thinking is the "veteran mindset". If AH was economics, your views on perks would be something like laissez-faire. It doesn't work that way.
The idealism you hold is this:
Are telling me what I think?
Perks are of no value unless you care about perk planes. You claim "no one cares about perks" then otoh hand act as if something is missing because most folks don’t use them or care enough to do what’s necessary to get them..
They are fine just like they are. If a player has a real desire to fly one he can do what everyone else has to do. There's no reason to make them more available to the very people you say don’t care about them.
you're not thinking how the majority of pilots that have trouble earning perk points would feel. No matter how they work hard, how they try different planes with higher ENY settings, some people just don't earn enough perks fast enough.
They have trouble earning perks because of the planes they fly and how they fly them. You want to "reward" their “mediocrity” or "herdism" by making perks cheap because somehow you feel that these folks need access to perk planes even though they don’t care about them as you said above.
If they cared they would adapt their behavior so that they earn more perks per sortie so they can get that shiny perk plane.
Do you want a "welfare” perk system?
The system is not infallable - everybody has the same opportunity, but due to differences in play time, skill, motivation and various many factors some will never get to fly a certain plane they would like to try out.
So? They can find a trainer, modify their behavior etc... Who cares if they never get to fly one?
Does an everyday wage-worker have any chance in his lifetime that he'd ever become a Porsche owner? Oh yes, the rich and famous would tell you "the opportunity is equal for all. So try to earn money and you'll be oneday a Porsche driver".
I am not communist so I don’t care anything about "workers rights". If they want it then they can go out and work for it like everyone else. If they aren’t up to it then they need to learn to accept that and try to find some harmony in understanding their place.
The price range for perks is reasonable as they are. They aren’t beyond anyone’s reach. If properly motivated they can do what is necessary so they can afford them or do with out.
No HTC perk subsidies; no perk plane affirmative action; and no welfare perk system. :)
Just ask many RAF enthusiasts how they feel about the Spit14. They view it as unfair.
Because some one desires something and then aren’t willing to put in the effort to get it doesn’t mean its "unfair" despite the whining they do. RAF guys can jump in Spit 5 or a hurri and go out and earn those perk to get their spit 14.
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Aaaaaaiiiiieeeeeeeeeaaaarrrrr ggggghhhhhhh!
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The only person who can change Perk Planes is HTC, not you, so give up while you're ahead.
That's what some people said about the Chog when everyone was complaining.
Yes, HTC is the sole determinator on this subject, and they don't operate by democracy. But I don't think they will unreasonably dismiss an idea that may bring the arena into better balance and gameplay, as much as you think they will not accept a single player's 'biased' opinion.
I'm not biased. Nor is this my opinion only.
I don't agree with perk planes fullstop and with the fuel multiplier as it is in AH2 there's going to be less of non-US planes anyway so your perk plane agenda is flawed.
Flawed as in how?
Plus if you perk one plane players will simply move onto the next non-perk plane until that is over used and that then becomes perk. In time all planes would be perked if it followed that trend.
Obviously you've never bothered to read the previous discussions of this subject, nor are you trying to accept this as even a remote possibility. You've never bothered to check the stats on plane usage, have you?
There is a lot more to how the dynamics of the perk work. I don't know if its deliberate or you really think that way, but how high the points are set, influence in subtle ways how much a plane is used, and you're ignoring that fact.
Whether a plane is totally "obliterated" from the arena, or simply it's usage is cut down to manageable levels, thus making other alternatives and substitute, is entirely upto how high the perks are applied.
People move onto the "next-best" free planes. But you're automatically assuming that the "perked planes" will never be used again, thus the same number of people will populate the next best planes, and nothing will be changed.
That's not true. Albeit a limited experiment, the regime of suggested perkage applied in the CT proves it works.
For example a 1944 setup for instance; the Luftwaffe mainstay of fighters are aimed to be the 109G-6, but some of 109G-10s should also exist with it. When left free, nobody flies the G-6 and the vast mainstay of people fly the G-10s.
By your theory, applying a perk to the G-10 will also destabilize the arena and make it unhistoric(thus, unbalanced) in that there will be no G-10s, and only G-6s all around - thus, "nothing's changed".
Well, it doesn't work that way. The arena sees a balance of G-10s and G-6s with a slighly higher usage to the G-6, but an adequate number of G-10s flying beside it.
So, how's that possible? The "next best plane" in this case is the G-6. But clearly the "next best" is in an inferior class to the "best", while the "best" are perked, but cheaply.
What happens, is the cheap 3 point perk is viewed as a fair deal - a limiting factor high enough to stop the 1944-based arena by totally overrun by the G-10, but not high enough to totally dismiss the arena of its existence. The end result is the number of G-6s flying around with number of G-10s is roughly equal.
And is that not a "balance" and "variety" achieved?
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In terms of the MA I'm looking forward to the same effect.
Take the La-7 for instance. My specific objecctive, is to bring down the 10% La-7 usage to about 4%~5%. Your logic, is that when the La-7 is perked, the same 10% will entirely move over to the "next best" La-5FN.
It is very likely the La-7 pilots will use La-5FN, as they are very simular planes with minor differences in handling and speed. Some people will, yes, move over to the La-5FN.
But the question that holds true, is the applied perk price. In order for your argument to be true, you must assume either;
1) That people will not fly the La-7 at all because they cannot afford it(or rather, the cost-effectiveness of newly perked La-7 is so unworthy that people will entirely give up on flying the La-7)
or
2) There is another free plane, roughly in the same class of performance and arena impact, for the people to simply move over and indulge in.
or, both 1) and 2).
Assumption 1) is proven to be wrong, at least in the CT. Cheap perks cut down the overall usage, but it still maintains some constant usage while the rest of the percentage of plane use is distributed to the "next best". People do start fly "next best" planes, but not all of them.
Assumption 2), has no basis, since ALL of the section of the planes with simular performance/arena impact, are also perked.
I'll await what HTC have to say, not you.
Then you might as well not started the response in the first place. Or is it just another way of saying "shut up. I don't wanna talk to you anymore"?
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Batz
Now that you put it that way, yes, in fact it is sort of a "welfare" perk system. Or rather, a mere alternative suggestion on the standards for choosing which planes should be perked and which not.
So? How is this a problem? If they cared about perk planes they know what they need to do to earn the perks to fly them.
Again the "veteran mindset" you show, Batz.
You yourself can kill any plane any average pilot flies, with any of the wide variety of choices AH planeset offers. By that your assuming that automatically, everybody in the game should try to become as high in skill as you, and if they never get a chance to fly they want its always their fault.
The same doesn't hold true for the rest of us. The majority of us, in fact.
How's that a problem? Since the average skill level attained in the arena remains constant, and all motivations towards becoming better pilots for specific rewards are discouraged, the end result is people forget about the perk system as a whole, and just fly whatever planes they can achieve any successful kills with.
And since the whole arena is full of free late-war, high-performance rides.. to at least maintain marginal success to be satisfactory, people stay in the "Big Five" and don't move over.
Voila, there you have it.
The very source of endless complaints people come up with - noobs, regulars, veterans alike -.. on how the arena is the same planes over and over again. How the horde mentality ruins the fun. How many mid-war/early-war planes are left hangar queens and such effort put into development wasted shamefully.
The stagnance of MA gameplay never bothered you at all?
Because, after seeing the past year, seeing many old fliers and veterans announce they are disappointed of what the MA has become, and announce that they will quit and go away because they can't find or meet any fun, various, satisfactory, different situations any more.. I had to think that something, was starting look foul in the MA.
Maybe(that's a "Maybe", mind you,) you all consider them losers, or deserters who quit AH, and you don't care about them or what they think.
But to me, that means that the same thing can happen to any one of us, and there's always a possibility that this, may ultimately in the future, become a source of stagnant gameplay which simularly brought Warbirds to ruins(although there were a lot more factors in WB working).
Just look at the split reactions of AH2. Many people are delighted to see some fine upgrades and subtle changes, which they consider it to be vibrant enough to renew their interest in the game.
But undenyingly, many other people also feel the opposite - they expected more of AH2, maybe graphics or systemwise, but ulitmately, they're disappointed because the same sort of toubling nature of the MA which they somehow hoped would be cured in AH2, was not.
Are we gonna dismiss all of them as unworthy complaints, saying how its all their fault that they don't feel content, and we don't care whether they quit or not?
So what if they don’t care?
Oops.. right. You don't care. Disregard the above, long, statement. *Shrugs*
....
That’s here nor there. What it does do is keep perk planes rare as it was designed to do.
Your repeating the moot point again.
The problem here, is the question, "Should they be rare", not "Does the perk system work?".
So tell me, should the Spit14 be rare?
With 60% of the arena flying the top 5 planes the odds of them accumulating enough perks to fly perk planes regularly is slim. That’s a good thing because we don’t need any more timid runners. We need more of those planes folks like to fight in.
The timid runner planes are gonna be perked also. Remember the "perk the whole section" comment?
In fact, while the perks on some planes like the Spit14 and F4U-4 is suggested to be lowered drastically(that's two planes), a whole new, 10 planes, which about half of them is what you would consider "timid runnders", is suggested to be newly perked at 3~4 points.
Overall, that's a lot, and I mean LOT of less timid runners then it ever is now.
Spit14s and F4U-4s may see more usage, but then P-51Ds, Fw190D-9s, Bf109G-10s, P-47D-30s, P-38Ls(I'm willing to accept an waiver on this one until an earlier variant surfaces), La-7s, Typhoons, F4U-1Ds, and etc etc are all suggested to be perked at 3, with specific goals of reducing their usage to 50% its normal rate.
ALL the "timid runners" are gonna be perked, and reduced in usage, while the mid-war planes as a substitute, will see more usage. If you don't like "timid runners", you're actually gonna enjoy the NPA then hate it, because you're gonna see a lot less of them.
Planes like the la7, Spits, Yaks, etc... Not Temp or F4U-4s running about boring every one.
Temps are suggested at 30 perks. 8 points reduced a 20% usage plane to 2% in the case of the Chog... 30 points, is plenty enough to keep them rare.
You think 30 points is easy cake to average pilots that constitute the majority of AH pilots? It takes me a week to get 30 points, Batz. Don't use your standards on how you get 20 perks a single sortie, for crying out loud!! :D
Reducing ot 30 points is not to double the Tempest presence or something - it's merely to make it a more realistic goal.
That’s the problem with the p51d now. It dies more then any other plane in those suicide pork and augers “mishuns” the rest of the time it’s running.
Yes. It's overused.
It's a multi-role fighter with the 2nd best range in the game, very high deck speed and survivability, but also carries a heavy ordnance load, which makes it one of the most favored jabo planes in the game, alongside the P-38L and the Typhoon.
People overuse it because if they don't auger, they can dive at full speed, lob 2k bombs and 6xHVARs, and then runaway at full speed. Why risk a Mossie or a 110 or an IL-2, when you got Typhoons, Mustangs and P-38Ls?
That's, why its suggested to be perked.
(continued)
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Kweassa you make some very good points in your post.:aok
I'd like to see it, or something similar to it implemented when AH2 goes live. I fly the pony d almost exclusively in the MA now and to be honest, if AH2 is more of the same... well I'll blow that bridge up when I get to it .
Cheers,
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(continued)
Put these same types of pilots in cheap perks and the arena doesn’t get better, it gets more timid (oh got to protect my precious perk plane) and more boring.
The same type of pilots, aren't going to fly a 3 point plane in potentially dangerous missions. You're thinking in the "veteran mindset" Batz, the "veteran mindset" !!!
Those guys fly high-performance planes timidly, because with their average level of skill that sort of speed and dive capability is the only thing that at least marginally increases their survivability.
3 points is cheap, but like you said the P-51D for instance, sees high usage but dies a lot. Average guys like us, die a lot despite the plane is so high in performance. That means a constant bleeding in 3 points. Up five sorties with five deaths and no kills, and that's 15 points blown away. Us average guys rarely land our planes. Our sorties are like 10 minutes - fly to the enemy field, bomb, auger by making a mistake.
Fly for 2 hours and its 12 sorties. If we die in all of them that's 36 point blown away if we use the P-51D exclusively.
This kind of loss is something no average pilot can afford. You don't understand this burden because earning perks is so easy for you.
So they can, like you say, 1) fly timidly(meaning? They aren't gonna suicide pork things!!!), or, 2) they are gonna use a different plane to do the job., or 3) they are gonna start practicing accurate and safe way to bomb and strafe stuff.
All of what can happen is actullay good to the arena:
1) If they fly timidly, they will be only doing limited A2A missions. The suicidal porkers ruining the arena with insane drive, will be reduced in numbers.
2) If the use different planes; if they use free, mid-war fighters, they carry typicall only 500~1000lbs ordnance. The destructive effect of kamikazes are reduced almost in half. If they use specialized jabo planes, their more easily intecepted, than the free "dive-to-the-field-suicidal-fashion" P-51s or Typhoons you see now.
3) If they actually start practicing to not die, then they will be motivated to become better pilots, and naturally meet some of the aspects of AH combat which they weren't interested before - like challenges in playing/trying different planes, etc etc.
Folks won’t fly temps and Spit 14s to run down 51s, that’s to risky they will use them to club baby seals.
Folks who can use Tempies regularly(folks who can risk 30 point loss without turning pale ;) ), are already someone who can club babyseals in whatever plane they fly.
Folks who cannot risk 30 point losses, are folks who wouldn't fly them in most cases, which will keep the arena relatively clear of the rare planes.
The Spit14?
It's 3 points. Fly timid? Surely they will fly less timid than when it was 60 points, don't you think?!
Are telling me what I think?
Perks are of no value unless you care about perk planes. You claim "no one cares about perks" then otoh hand act as if something is missing because most folks don’t use them or care enough to do what’s necessary to get them..
I'm saying folks choose to ignore perks because the prices set on some of the planes are so high, that they feel its an unrealistic goal in the first place. There is a circumstantial effect in their choosing to forget about the perked planes.
Differ the circumstances, then they will start caring about them. Why leave them and don't care about them, when there is a way to welcome them all to the system without being felt left out?
They are fine just like they are.
They're fine because you personally don't care what others feel, as long as you fly your own way.
However, the rest of "them", which happens to be average guys like us, which also happen to be the vast majority in the Main Arena, may think differently. That's why I commented "the meek, inherited this Earth".
If a player has a real desire to fly one he can do what everyone else has to do. There's no reason to make them more available to the very people you say don’t care about them.
Desire is not always of one's own emotions. Desires are effected vastly by how the environment revolves around us. Desire, is not tabula rasa.
There are ways to help people feel more motivated, and feel stronger desires to achieving something.
And ultimately, if a system can help people feel motivated to try harder and become better pilots, is that not a good thing?
They have trouble earning perks because of the planes they fly and how they fly them. You want to "reward" their “mediocrity” or "herdism" by making perks cheap because somehow you feel that these folks need access to perk planes even though they don’t care about them as you said above.
They have trouble earning perks because of the planes they fly and how the fly it. They fly those planes in that fashion because flying any other plane with inferior performance, is not gonna let them earn any kills(perks) at all in the first place.
By their standards in skill, they must endure at least some many months of constant deaths with hardly any return for it, to fly a 262 for a single sortie, in an environemnt of the MA which has turned much harsher than it used to be over the years. They have either face hordes of enemies in an inferior plane with higher ENY, or fly with hordes of planes to even survive for a while in a such inferior plane, which rarely gets them any chance to even meet an enemy.
The arena is not constant Batz. It's not what it used to be. Life for the n00b and the average, is incredibly harder than it used to be when the arena was only 200 people.
It's a vicious circle of demoralization, stagnance in skill level and plane choices, which leads to even more demoralization.
So? They can find a trainer, modify their behavior etc... Who cares if they never get to fly one?
Right, again, you don't care. *Shrugs*
I am not communist so I don’t care anything about "workers rights". If they want it then they can go out and work for it like everyone else. If they aren’t up to it then they need to learn to accept that and try to find some harmony in understanding their place.
Who cares if its communistic? This is a virtual world where anything can be changed. In the real world a communist experiment have to put real people's lives on line like guinea pigs. This MA world, anything can be changed by the words of HT almighty.
So if its easier for everyone to become richer, is that not a good thing? It's not like I'm suggesting all the planes should be perk-free. I'm actually suggesting some planes made be more expensive than it ever was(which was free...), compared to a marginal few planes which are made cheaper.
The price range for perks is reasonable as they are. They aren’t beyond anyone’s reach.
No Batz, they aren't beyond your reach. They're beyond the average guys reach.
If properly motivated they can do what is necessary so they can afford them or do with out.
How are they gonna be motivated when they feel its out of their reach? Is it easier to make all the people start feeling differently? Or is it easier to change the price tag?
If the suggested experimental price of 100 for 262s or 30 for Tempies is too cheap and indeed, makes the arena suddenly abundant of them, then HTC can always rasie their prices a little bit and see if it helps! Like how Pyro experiments by adjusting with ENY and OBJ, I'm suggesting an adjustment with different perk prices.
I'm not saying I'm the ultimate truth of this world so o' follow my footsteps. I'm asking for a chance to see if it works out.
No HTC perk subsidies; no perk plane affirmative action; and no welfare perk system.
No reason to say no, if they work and work well. Ultimately, there's only one way to find out.
Because some one desires something and then aren’t willing to put in the effort to get it doesn’t mean its "unfair" despite the whining they do.
So you're actually saying the Spit14 being perked at 60, while the La-7, P-51D, Fw190D-9 and the Bf109G-10, comparable in performance, high in arena impact, historically in the same timeline, run rampant in the MA for free of charge, is not unfair?
RAF guys can jump in Spit 5 or a hurri and go out and earn those perk to get their spit 14.
While we Luftwaffles can just merrily pick a Fw190D-9 and a Bf109G-10 for free, without having to work our prettythang off to earn 60~70 perks with a Bf109F-4?
By the way, the Spit5 and Spit9 are vastly lower in ENY than the Bf109F-4 and the Bf109G-2.
That may be because many "dweebs" overuse those planes, but for the true-blue RAF planes who fly Spits because they really love that plane, it's an unfair advantage.
We Luftwaffles get the "best plane" of our set for free. The RAF fans(ironically, which I am accused of being biased against...) get their best plane which doesn't considerably outperform our best planes, with a price of 60.
Same with the USN fans. They get their "Best plane", for 50. While USAAF and LW types get theirs free of charge.
So is that really fair?
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Some very good points KW.
It's worth a looksee.
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Frankly I don't care what the cost of the Spit XIV is. As long as it says "SPIT14" under it I have no desire to pay points to experience a gangbang. It isn't fast enough to run at the altitudes the fighting happens in AH and it's climb rate (always short duration) has been reduced in AH2.
Frankly, to me, the Spit XIV is useless. It's performance is too low to survive the attention it draws in anything other than expert hands.
I have about 1400 perk points.
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The Spit 14 should be unperked, in my opinion. It is completely different than the Spit 9... so much different that I'd wager the "Spit 9/Nik crowd" wouldn't even fly it. It is more of a 109G6 type plane, in my opinion. Vastly better firepower though.
F4U4 is a blue La-7, not really sure why it is perked. It doesn't have Hizookas, which is the only reason the F4U-1C gets flown at all.
The Ta-152 is garbage, it wouldn't be flown even if it were unperked. Maybe if the average fight in the MA was at 47K people would use it, but as it is the plane is fairly worthless.
Tempest is an La-7 with Hizookas. It has better vertical performance than the La-7, but it doesn't turn as well. It accelerates a teensy-weensy itty-bitty bit faster too. The Hizookas make the plane.. the performance isn't anything special.
262 is worthless imo, but I can see why it is perked. No fun chasing around doofii (plural for doofus) that can't shoot straight and don't know how to energy fight.
If the fuel burn rate issue really knocks down the number of La-7s I'll be surprised. And the 109G10/190D9 would make an extraordinarily poor substitute, so you won't see any La-7 drivers switching to them. My guess would be the P-51, or maybe the Typhoon, depending on how the La-7 flyer likes to "fight". I use the term fight really loosely there.
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Ta152 is garbage
lol
kind of like Ducatis are garbage because they don't breathe fire like JPN equivalents!
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Obviously you've never bothered to read the previous discussions of this subject, nor are you trying to accept this as even a remote possibility. You've never bothered to check the stats on plane usage, have you?
No I spoke to Pyro direct. I spoke with Pyro regarding the perk plane set. They're going to make a few little changes, i.e. updating the values and may add another plane to the perk planeset. They have no plans on perking more like you suggest Kweassa because they feel it would force people into the non-perk planes which will then get perked for 'overuse', in other words, a cascade effect.
People move onto the "next-best" free planes. But you're automatically assuming that the "perked planes" will never be used again, thus the same number of people will populate the next best planes, and nothing will be changed.
That's not true. Albeit a limited experiment, the regime of suggested perkage applied in the CT proves it works.
Well HTC disagree, and I think they know more about flight sims than you.
Then you might as well not started the response in the first place. Or is it just another way of saying "shut up. I don't wanna talk to you anymore"?
No, it's just that I've never seen someone talk so much in my life! :D :aok
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Personally I'd just be interested to see what would happen if the top 4 or 5 used planes in the MA were perked at 1 point each for a tour or two. We've got real good numbers to for % arena kills by aircraft for many tours for comparison.
HTC may be right when they say that perking planes forces people into the next best non-perk planes, but alot of that has to do with the high perk costs they set. 1 point isn't going to break any banks, but it does create a barrier to costant and continued loss of the same plane. Eventually, pilots will have to try something else, if only for a sortie or two.
I could certainly live under Kweassa's NPA regime as well, but its a pretty massive change, based on K's complex analysis and theories. Either way, I'd prefer action by HTC over inaction. When the perk system was introduced, HTC said we could expect experimentation and tweaking with it, but they've really done very little of that.
Count me in as one who is looking for more changes in AH2 than just the graphics/FM/gunnery/damage models. I'm hoping for something that will give the routine main arena play a kick in the pants. The recent changes to fuel strat are a good example.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Or does the RAF squads necessarily need a plane that carries 2000lbs ordnance load, quad hispanos, and outruns every other unperked fighter on deck, to be competitive?
I've never see this as an advantage .
The slow climb rate of the typhoon combined with the idiotic fuel multiplier is prefect to pork the Typhoon.
The Typhoon is perhaps the perfect runner down low but don't forget we're not making a dragster competition being faster AND lower as no purpose in the MA.
The key advantage of the Typhoon (the high cruise speed) in her historical role is killed by a game play concession .
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No I spoke to Pyro direct. I spoke with Pyro regarding the perk plane set. They're going to make a few little changes, i.e. updating the values and may add another plane to the perk planeset. They have no plans on perking more like you suggest Kweassa because they feel it would force people into the non-perk planes which will then get perked for 'overuse', in other words, a cascade effect.
Sounds good to me...
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Firstly I must appologise for not having read all the above............
However from the proposal made I assume the presently most popular plane.............the Spit 9 would then dominate the arena in terms of % utilisation.
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Originally posted by Tilt
Firstly I must appologise for not having read all the above............
However from the proposal made I assume the presently most popular plane.............the Spit 9 would then dominate the arena in terms of % utilisation.
I think the type of terrain, which country you fight and time of play influences what aircraft is used.
For the past TWO tours only, my most kills of are:
Yak-9T - 20
Yak-9U - 18
Spit9 - 65
Seafire - 28
P51D - 57
N1K2 - 75
La7 - 66
F6F - 31
205 - 19
F4U-1D - 29
P38L - 28
P47-30 - 27
Hurr2C - 20
Ju88 - 58
B17G - 32
B26B - 43
Bf110G2 - 24
To me I was surprised to see so many 205s and Yaks lately.
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Originally posted by Replicant
I think the type of terrain, which country you fight and time of play influences what aircraft is used.
For the past TWO tours only, my most kills of are:
What happens when you add your kills of and killed by lists together.............
I may be a little out of touch with some stats but I do rem the Spit9, P51D, NiK2 and La7 being the top 4 used planes..........
I have never seen the La7 at the top of the list but think I have seen the other three with (if I rem correctly) the Spit9 there more than the others.
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http://www.fatdrunkbastards.com/Scorepotatos/TourStats/FvFstats.htm
Follow the link....
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Perk points are always a rolling plane set in reverse.
Every thread about perks adds the latest most popular nonperked planes. Like a python, it is a never ending constriction.
From the widest assortment of planes for the money in an unrestricted arena, choices are gradually reduced to early 45, late 44, mid 44, early 44, late 43, and so on down to the earliest models.
Eventually everything could be perked. That sort of equilibrium encouragement already is in effect by the less obvious ENY and OBJ weighted point scoring.
These restricted choices have always been best applied in the Combat Theater. Which has always needed a better assortment of additional planes and vehicles for the most historic matchups.
Betas see more normally perked planes simply because they are free and less trouble to use.
Playing in a perked arena is like going into this great toy store and being told, Oh no, sorry, you can't fly that until you earn bonus points for it. Yes, other better players earn more of those perk points and quicker than you ever will be able to do. Yes, you pay the same money as the better players. We have some players concerned about balance, that's why. Jets? Hahahaha. Well, duh, too bad if most players naturally gravitate to the most appealing toys -- here we insist that the less appealing toys also be used. Sorry if you don't like it. It's a free country, go play somewhere else.
Many subscribers just want to hop on line and have a good time with minimum hassle in the brief time they can squeeze in for cyber recreation -- a fun personal reward interlude from the demands of work, family, survival, and other mainstream worries and obligations.
Being limited in choices, having to grind away for perk points, keep track, lose some, scheme to gain more ... that's a lot like work. It isn't far from various commercial hooks like bonus points that the most obnoxious retailers use to addict consumers.
Aces High still needs one Unrestricted or Maximum Arena with no perks and exterior viewing as well. Max appeal for the most paying customers of all talents and inclinations.
That in no way would compromise the excellence and principles of Aces High; rather, it would enhance them. Test one Unrestricted Arena. Compare its numbers with other arenas. Good chance it would be the most popular arena and hence the most profitable arena for Aces High.
Keep existing arenas and add that Unrestricted Main Arena. Satisfy everyone. Prosper and endure.
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No, I don't think it would be popular at all.
You see... what people want are an advantage over everyone else.
Some people fly only the "best" plane. That is an advantage (or at the very least, not giving an advantage to your opponent).
Some people fly very timidly, only engaging once their "target" is fighting someone else, and running away unless they are higher and faster than the "target".
Some people just fly in hordes.
Some people don't fly at all. The Flakpansie used to be a very common choice back when it could kill tanks, buildings, and planes with equal ease.
About one tenth of one percent of people that play multiplayer games are actually looking for a challenge.
So... in the beginning the "Unrestricted Arena" might be full of idiots flying what is perked in the MA... until they realize that a Me262 flown incredibly timidly is untouchable. Of course... they don't mind the fact that unless you are cherrypicking you'll never get a kill flying a 262 incredibly timidly. Perhaps they are a wannabe Erich Hartmann, I've seen a lot of those around. But in the end your arena would be full of 262s.. and once that happened all the idiots would realise that they can't get an advantage over the "average pilot" by picking a better plane, and they'd leave.
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Urchin is correct...
Planes are perked for a reason. Its not like every other plane is perked. Its nothing like an rps. You can fly any thing you want at any time with the exception of a few planes and you can fly those if you have enough perks. You earn perks by not dying every sortie and by chosing planes that pay the best.
The timid runner flying only the "bestest" planes will take weeks to earn enough for a temp, a suicide pork and auger guy wont ever get any etc...
But the choice is theirs to make.
A whole arena of timidity and running would be empty.
By looking at minids list theres 3 planes that jumpo right out as the next perk candidates, the p51d, the p38 and the typh...
These are the suicide auger planes and/or the runners....
The la7s, spits and nikis are fun to fight and dont end up doing a lot of base attack stuff.
But theres only 1 p38 in AH so it should stay unperked. So the p51d or typh should be the next perk, At least in my well enlightened opinion... :p
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I agree with Batz that our current perked planes should not come down in price.
But Kweassa's proposal has its biggest advantages in reigning in the pork n auger dweebs. Pork n auger guys are usually also the most timid in A2A stuff, but find it ok to die while porking as long as no one actually shot them down.
a 3perk 51d wouldnt make them anymore timid then they already are A2A, but they will be hesistant to just keep smacking the earth after bomb runs.
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Um... what can the 38 run away from? It certainly can't dive away from any half decent diver, and its straight-line speed enables it to run away from.... the various pre-1943 turn and burners. It is only slightly above the planeset average in top speed.
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It "runs into" the ground quite a bit... :p
These are the suicide auger planes and/or the runners...
But since there is only 1 variant of the p38 you can’t very well perk it.
But both the spit 9 and niki are "slow" yet folks still call for them to be perked.
Look I don’t care what’s perked. I am only illustrating the point that for every call to "perk this" there is a reasonable argument to perk something else.
Perk the p51d and the pork and augers go to the jug or the hog. The runners go to the B pony etc...
Any one who wants something perked as a means of "social engineering" is deluding themselves.
I do believe in less run = more fun and the less we see pork and auger the better the game gets. Whether the 51 gets perked or the g10 it makes no difference. It won’t change behavior.
I do not think there is a "need" for cheaper perk planes and think the current system works fine.
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This thread reminds me of the guy that posted 30 threads wanting a B-29 with a nuke. It's a never ending story :mad:
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Originally posted by Batz
It "runs into" the ground quite a bit... :p
But since there is only 1 variant of the p38 you can’t very well perk it.
But both the spit 9 and niki are "slow" yet folks still call for them to be perked.
Look I don’t care what’s perked. I am only illustrating the point that for every call to "perk this" there is a reasonable argument to perk something else.
Perk the p51d and the pork and augers go to the jug or the hog. The runners go to the B pony etc...
Any one who wants something perked as a means of "social engineering" is deluding themselves.
I do believe in less run = more fun and the less we see pork and auger the better the game gets. Whether the 51 gets perked or the g10 it makes no difference. It won’t change behavior.
I do not think there is a "need" for cheaper perk planes and think the current system works fine.
Very good points there Batz. I mostly fly the Typhoon in the Jabo roll. If it's a fair fight I'll engage anything but if I'm totally outnumbered then of course I'll run. However, quite often I like to dogfight the Tiffy which can be rather tough considering its very low roll rate. Each plane has an advantage and disadvantage but it's up to the individual to use it in that respect.
Another reason I wouldn't like more planes perked is that I often bail/ditch/auger to help a squaddie or capture a base etc. If I'm going to lose perk points each time I do that then I'll simply have to rtb and delay any action until I'm airbourne again. You have to remember it's a game too and not everyone lands! :)
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// sarcasm on
Nexx I see that you fly the typhoon like me : because it's a great plane for the ego !
if you kill them it's because ya rulezzz !
if you got killed hell ! what ya expect else in a typhoon ?
//sarcasm of :)
Well IRL I fly her because she's lovely plus I remember the story of my uncle who was living close to Falaise during the war
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Originally posted by straffo
// sarcasm on
Nexx I see that you fly the typhoon like me : because it's a great plane for the ego !
if you kill them it's because ya rulezzz !
if you got killed hell ! what ya expect else in a typhoon ?
//sarcasm of :)
Well IRL I fly her because she's lovely plus I remember the story of my uncle who was living close to Falaise during the war
Well I fly the Typhoon because she was involved heavily with the 2 TAF! :)
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TAF ? wtf is this ? the Tasmanian Air Force ?
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Originally posted by straffo
TAF ? wtf is this ? the Tasmanian Air Force ?
No, Trinidad Air Force!
Nah, 2nd Tactical Air Force!!! :)
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Tiffies are great.:)
I have a feeling the n1k will become the number 1 plane in AHII, assuming it keeps it's great fuel endurance. It can fly at twice the length of time @ mil power than a spit9 can.:eek:
Turns great, has quad hispanos and can fly on full power for 45 mins <--- this'll make it very popular i imagine.
On the other hand mossie has an uber fuel endurance now....woohoo!:)
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Nikis dont have hispanos, not even close.
They have type 99 mk 2 with a low rate of fire and not nearly as lethal.
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If the Rule "The wheel that squeaks the most gets oiled first" is applied, then Keawessa is a Shoe In. :lol
Is that how it works? Post a novel and HT will listen?
I would hope that while HT doesn’t work on Poll's. He would at least consider the Majority opinion on these issues. Although I realize that the Majority most definitely are not represented in the BBS
I am most certain the majority of players/subscribers have no intention of supporting such a proposal. HT has done an excellent of perking the planes and it most definitely does not need an overhaul. :rolleyes:
MugZ
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I do not think there is a "need" for cheaper perk planes and think the current system works fine.
I am most certain the majority of players/subscribers have no intention of supporting such a proposal. HT has done an excellent of perking the planes and it most definitely does not an overhaul.
MugZ
Ditto ..... Perk Smirk .. The system is just fine the way it is and should be left alone !
"Save that crap for Tour of Duty " concept......
;) CHECKERS
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I have only one problem with your list Kweassa,,,
The p-38 has a set of adherants, and unlike the other planes on your proposed list is only available in one flavor. I dont have a problem with perking the L, only AFTER HTC gives us a mid-war version, that could be flown unperked.
-bigred
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Originally posted by AWCHKRS
I am most certain the majority of players/subscribers have no intention of supporting such a proposal. HT has done an excellent of perking the planes and it most definitely does not an overhaul.
MugZ
Ditto ..... Perk Smirk .. The system is just fine the way it is and should be left alone !
"Save that crap for Tour of Duty " concept......
;) CHECKERS
For that Matter, on another note:..SAVE THE FULLER REALISM FLIGH MODELING CRAP FOR TOD!!! eee Gads Man! Either go FULL REALISM or DONT...This simi Full Realism crap is for the birds! :rofl
I know "this isnt the thread for that" thread shmead. Im tired of pusssy footin around and chasing the threads all over the frikin place.!!!:rofl
happy hunting. :)
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Originally posted by Batz
Nikis dont have hispanos, not even close.
They have type 99 mk 2 with a low rate of fire and not nearly as lethal.
oops! don't know why i said hispanos. Guess i was stil thinking about the mossie....mmmmm....... mossie.
I still believe the great fuel endurance will make the n1k a very popular ride
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Sorry guys but.....I don't know why do you insist with this perking system.
De facto there are planes that none is and has been flying at all (5 pilots over 400 is that flies a Me262 are percentage bound to nothing).
Why instead not implemets a time scale planes availability like it is obvious to do in a WWII simulator ?
Is it a very good SIMULATION for you to see a zekes vs Me262s :rolleyes: :confused:
All the words we can use to describe this situation except SIMULATION.
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AH is a game not a simulator. Perking planes is a gameplay descision just like any other.
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Uhm.....strange thing.
I've always thought AH is a simulator not only an arcade game :confused:
But probably I made a mistake. :eek:
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As a Guy who baseporks I can tell you that for the most part
"Pork and auger dwwebs" are a figment of your imaginations.
I've seen VERY few people come in. pork a base and then intentionally auger. I know I never ever do this And I know not one person that does this.
Speaking from experiance,99% of the time what your probably seeing is the base ack doing its job albeit late or someone in a manned ack hitting a plane and knocking out its controls to the point where the plane is unflyable and thus it crashes.
Are there people who pork and auger? Probably
But those people are few and far between.
Now if you want to perk planes maybe what should be considered is haveing an equal balance of early,mid and late war planes and versions of planes (which would mean more planes to choose from) Then have no perks for early planes. midwar planes would be moderatly perked and late war planes would be the most expencive.
But if perks are based on balance so that not too many of one plane is in the air then there is no way in hell the spit should be a cheap perk ride, Nor should the La7. and maybe the Nik.
And hey I fly Nikis and La7's.
Far far too many of these planes airborn now, the spit in particular.
Though maybe all planes including the spits should be free during the two week trial period. This would enable these newbies to fly tricycles with training wheels and build up a few perks to use on these planes once the free trial is up
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If the perk system was to be used to differentiate between later period AC (and its clear that presently it is not) then re the La7 an additional model could be made such that there are two being.................
La7
La7 (45)
The latter being the 3 cannon and the former being the 2 cannon version. The latter could then use Airmess's skin as per the thread below (or above as the case may be) and possibly be subject to a nominal perk.
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As a Guy who baseporks I can tell you that for the most part
"Pork and auger dwwebs" are a figment of your imaginations.
oh bs I watched whole attacks fly into the ground.
You cant hunt "tool sheds" offline and save money at that...
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Adjusting the perk system will not well accomplish what you seek. Perk system was a great idea, but as many have stated, it lacks teeth. Apply the perk balancing formula also to scoring and then you would have something that has a real day to day impact, not only on plane types, but also arena balance.
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Shoot, ask Zanth about pork and auger.
My ingame nic Helvik, I was in a 109E and a 51 came in. I closed position to d1k. He dove from 12k to 3k and ran at the field. I told Zanth I couldnt catch him in an emil and Zanth went after him. Before he got there the p51 blew himself up on the ole "pork'n'auger".
This wasn't this guys 1st or last trip either... He did it several times trying to take out 1 FH at a time.
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Originally posted by doobs
I remember reading a post that they perked the c-hog because of the number of them that would be up. If that the case then I hardly see f4's compared the the likes of the niki, la7, and spit 9.
I'd like to see the c-hog freed from perks or the aforementioned three planes perked.
Except for the spit9 I'd agree with you, it is not the late '44 monster that the other ones are.
I remember well when the Chog scourge was in full effect. Imagine if every N1K/spit/la7 were all Chogs, then imagine less than half the people in the MA. I think actual stats indicate it was about 35% of the sorties flown. One simple (and VERY low) perk mod cleared that up straight away. I agree with Kweassa that a small perk mod will reduce the overabundance of the "less balanced" planes.
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There are other ways of TRYING to balance the MA without resorting to "force", applying perk value feels like "force" to many players.
I have one suggestion that is based on motivation, therein lies it's weakness, but I don't think that full balance will ever be achieved as long as players can choose freely.
There will always be an overweight of certain popular plane models unless drastic and restrictive measures are taken.
My suggestion will not fix everything, far from it, but it may help a little.
The suggestion (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=117675).
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It's been kicked around before (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1084934&highlight=perks+score#post1084934://)
never got an official feedback on the idea though (that I have seen)
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This is an interesting thread. For what it's worth (not much), Kweassa, I think you've gotten the better of the argument.
I've got relatively little experience with on-line flight sims: AH is my first and only, and I've been here a couple of years now. [Insert obvious disclaimer for lack of experience.]
It seems that the perk system is broken, because perk points and perk planes are relatively useless. The problems with perk planes, much discussed elsewhere, are the predictable result of the stigma that attaches to a plane once it is placed on the perked, non-free list (the perk-plane icons exacerbate these effects).
As I see it, the system will never really work until the perk stigma is removed (unless the goal is to essentially remove certain planes from the game, in which case they could simply be removed from the game). It seems to me that there are two ways to do this: perk nothing or perk (almost) everything. Kweassa's approach leans toward the latter, and I think that's the way I lean as well.
I realize this will never be adopted, but I think I would try a system something like the following: The perk prices for planes are adjusted periodically (e.g., daily) according to a heuristic that considers objective performance factors (e.g., level speed, climb rate, sustained turning rate, roll rate, range, WEP endurance, cockpit visibility, gun lethality, ordnance capability, etc.) and subjective performance factors (e.g., % usage and the various factors that comprise fighter and attack scores). I would not consider historical usage or date of introduction, as neither matters in the non-historical MA. The current country imbalance factor is layered on top, to really give that balancing mechanism some teeth.
What this would yield is a feedback system in which a plane's perk price is adjusted from a nominal, performance-derived value, depending on the relative extent and efficacy of its MA usage. The weight given to subjective performance factors is the feedback "gain" and determines how quickly and forcefully the system seeks to discourage (relatively) the use of common and/or effective planes. I would suggest a cap on deviation from the nominal values so that, for example, a Zero could never cost more than a P51-D, no matter how much or to what effect it is used. It might also make sense to place a deadband in-line with the subjective factors so that, for example, the nominal value of a plane would never be adjusted until its MA % usage rises above a certain level. (Actually, I would prefer a completely objective pricing criterion, but I realize that there are those in favor of diversity for diversity's sake. Also, there likely are some factors that make planes more or less effective than the "numbers" would indicate that would show up in the subjective valuation.)
I realize that there is the "what about guys who have no perks" problem, but that can be dealt with in any number of ways, such making all planes free for a month or two or three after subscription and then always maintaining a relatively small set of planes that are absolutely free. I would also make it easier to earn enough perk points to fly one's plane of choice. For instance, I'd select the nominal values such that just 1 or 2 kills of a "like" plane in a step-down model (e.g., La-5) would earn a flight in a step-up model (e.g., La-7).
If you don't like the notion of "forcing" people to fly something other than what they want to, then you'll just have to accept that there will always be a "Big 4." (Perhaps there will be no matter what you do.) Personally, I don't have a problem with that, and I'd suggest that as an alternative, just get rid of the jets and rockets and unperk everything else.
Just my $0.02,
JNOV
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Originally posted by clouds
Uhm.....strange thing.
I've always thought AH is a simulator not only an arcade game :confused:
But probably I made a mistake. :eek:
You didn't make a mistake; but you're a bit simple in your definition of "simulation".
AH in the MA is a simulation of second world war aircraft; it's not a simulation of the second world war it's self. That's what Events; and to a lesser extent, the CT are trying to do.
Many here make much the same mistake; and many game play suggestions are dismissed out of hand as being a transparent attempt to steer the AH MA into being a second world war simulation; a rolling plane set (which is what I believe you're suggesting) is the most common of these.
Kwessas suggestion is more interesting because instead of using contentious date or number issues; he goes right to the core of suggestions that in his view would open and improve game play in the MA _as_it_is; without introducing spurious historical argument. As such his discussion deserves attention: we all want a better game; though we may not agree how to achieve it.
Personaly; I think that maybe not enough attention is given to the positive effect of perkplanes. Right now; they're expensive and rare; because even the better pilots such as Laz and Wotan don't apprieciate the "gang me!" label that perk icons currently provide.
However; if a new, much cheaper class of perk plane were to arise; then it could be that newbies themselves see the perk label as a "badge of competance" and that earning the few points they would cost would become a point of distinction; and seen as an object to aspire to; if only for squad nights.
Additionaly; the perk system is, if anything, a gentle attempt at steering arena behaviour; and as such it will never work as long as only the plane; and not the effect it may have; i.e. ordinance is taken into account.
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
As a Guy who baseporks I can tell you that for the most part
"Pork and auger dwwebs" are a figment of your imaginations.
I've seen VERY few people come in. pork a base and then intentionally auger. I know I never ever do this And I know not one person that does this.
Speaking from experiance,99% of the time what your probably seeing is the base ack doing its job albeit late or someone in a manned ack hitting a plane and knocking out its controls to the point where the plane is unflyable and thus it crashes.
Are there people who pork and auger? Probably
But those people are few and far between.
Well Said. And you speaketh the truth. :)
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Originally posted by Batz
Shoot, ask Zanth about pork and auger.
My ingame nic Helvik, I was in a 109E and a 51 came in. I closed position to d1k. He dove from 12k to 3k and ran at the field. I told Zanth I couldnt catch him in an emil and Zanth went after him. Before he got there the p51 blew himself up on the ole "pork'n'auger".
This wasn't this guys 1st or last trip either... He did it several times trying to take out 1 FH at a time.
Has it ever occured to you that hes not a very good Dive Bomber?
Duh!
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after the 1st 5 trips ya think he would have figured it out.
Hes a typical pork and auger "mishun" dewd who would rather kill himself getting the last tool shed rather then fight and die vrs a human.
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Originally posted by Batz
oh bs I watched whole attacks fly into the ground.
You cant hunt "tool sheds" offline and save money at that...
Then you have experianced a rarity.
Because while I've seen them also I could probably count on 1 hand with a bunch of fingers left over how many times I've seen it in the 2 years Ive been around.
but to insist this is a wholesale common happening is a crock itself
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Originally posted by Batz
after the 1st 5 trips ya think he would have figured it out.
Hes a typical pork and auger "mishun" dewd who would rather kill himself getting the last tool shed rather then fight and die vrs a human.
He Who?
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Interesting how the "lines" are split for both within the group of "Yay-sayers"[i/] and "Nay-sayers" ;)
Some may argue that the perk system is working fine. Others may say it is not. Others may want a limited perk applied to planes they want them to be.
What is undeniable that the arena, has settled for its favor on some particular planes - known as the "Big Five" - which five planes of the entire set claim 45% in total kills gained in the MA. And this trend has started years before, and up to date, has not simmered down. It has been going on long enough to properly assume that it is not the individual who must change, but the system that must change.
If all of the individuals that take part in hording the arena usage to five planes can change, the arena would have balanced itself a long time ago.
The "equilibrium" of plane usage has settled down to this 'shape' we know of today, because the MA environment itself promotes those very planes.
Again, a simular experiment was (albeit unoffcially) done in the CT. It was proven to work on a smaller scale there. I think it will work on a larger scale, too.
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P-51D will never be perked in the MA.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Interesting how the "lines" are split for both within the group of "Yay-sayers"[i/] and "Nay-sayers" ;)
Some may argue that the perk system is working fine. Others may say it is not. Others may want a limited perk applied to planes they want them to be.
What is undeniable that the arena, has settled for its favor on some particular planes - known as the "Big Five" - which five planes of the entire set claim 45% in total kills gained in the MA. And this trend has started years before, and up to date, has not simmered down. It has been going on long enough to properly assume that it is not the individual who must change, but the system that must change.
If all of the individuals that take part in hording the arena usage to five planes can change, the arena would have balanced itself a long time ago.
The "equilibrium" of plane usage has settled down to this 'shape' we know of today, because the MA environment itself promotes those very planes.
Again, a simular experiment was (albeit unoffcially) done in the CT. It was proven to work on a smaller scale there. I think it will work on a larger scale, too.
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Indeed it will change the balance and the game. Fact is..a new patteren Big 5 or Big 6 or 7 or what ever, will eventually take hold. And presto..someone will re-visit the "Perky issue" again. "Most people dont like change" This is a simple fact played out in the game and here in the BBS more times than we can count. Why do you think players settle in on a givin ride? Cause we have been told, (rightly so) to "find a plane you like and stick with it" this is the single best advise a new player can take. And an old player soon learns that he/she can benifit from this advise as well.
Promoting a perk system that will put/force/manipulate more customers in the Aircraft of an individuals chosing. Or the notion that overhauling the perk system to dictate Whom flys what, or how much it get's flown will "balance" the MA is simply ridiculas.
Inside of 4 months tops, a NEW Cluster of favorites will develop. And would consist of 4 to 6 AC types. ie. 1 to 2 ea.TnBers 3 ea.HITnRunners and 2 ea. ROPEnDopers. Thats about IT! if anyone thinks the vast majority plays AH for the romance of the WWII AC ..your Nuts. The majority paly for one simple reason. We want to Beat the other "Human" player. Why AH..cause its simply the game that offers a very large player base (500 to 600+ online at times )In fact..If your were to develope a Modern JET Fighter, massive multiplayer sim.. id bet a weeks wages that much of the AH community would vanish from HTC as soon as word got around. For most players Its about the adrenalin Rush. Give us YF22's F18,s SideWinders, stingers and a 300 player arena.. And all Helll will break lose
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Then you have experianced a rarity.
Because while I've seen them also I could probably count on 1 hand with a bunch of fingers left over how many times I've seen it in the 2 years Ive been around.
but to insist this is a wholesale common happening is a crock itself
If had been here 2 years you would already know what I have to say about building battlers and pork auger types.
I am not gonna re hash it here, do a search.
I have been here since the doors opened so my "experiences" a bit more then yours. So quit being dishonest and go catch that last tool shed, he's gettin away........
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Originally posted by Batz
If had been here 2 years you would already know what I have to say about building battlers and pork auger types.
I am not gonna re hash it here, do a search.
I have been here since the doors opened so my "experiences" a bit more then yours. So quit being dishonest and go catch that last tool shed, he's gettin away........
Barely...guess you did say"bit". Carry on.
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Originally posted by Batz
If had been here 2 years you would already know what I have to say about building battlers and pork auger types.
I am not gonna re hash it here, do a search.
I have been here since the doors opened so my "experiences" a bit more then yours. So quit being dishonest and go catch that last tool shed, he's gettin away........
Your experiances may well be more then mine so thus you may have seen it more then me based on time alone.
And yea I do know what you have to say about em. but to be perfectly honest I'f youve seen me around you will know I dont really give a damn What you, Or anyone else on this planet thinks about just about anything. Your words,thoughts or opinions are no more or less valid then mine or anyone elses.
I am far from being dishonest I am simply telling it as I see it and I stand by my words. This idea that wholesale pork and intentional augering is going on is a crock
You dont like me hitting toolsheds. Either stop hoarding me, or stop me. Your choice
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Originally posted by Mugzeee
Indeed it will change the balance and the game. Fact is..a new patteren Big 5 or Big 6 or 7 or what ever, will eventually take hold. And presto..someone will re-visit the "Perky issue" again. "Most people dont like change" This is a simple fact played out in the game and here in the BBS more times than we can count.
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Sad, but this statment is very true.
Once something is set, people will hate the change and resist it. If it will change, they'll adapt, think they like it and hate any other change...
The problem I see with the MA is that the plane set is TOO diverse.
You have 1939 planes making barly 250 mph flying with 400+ mph planes and even 262 jets. You might as well make an areana with F16s and sopwith-pups.
this makes early war rides useless as they can't catch anything, early war bombers, take less load than late war fighters - why use them?
This bothers a lot of players who want to fly the sopwith-pups, but having an areana full of F16's makes it no fun.
Two suggestions keep coming up again and again:
1. Two areanas - early war and late war.
2. shifting the planeset to mid war so the early ones are not entirely obsolete and you can still see late war monsters. The way to do this is "perk control".
I'll settle for any of the two above, As P51D, Ta152, F4u-4, La7 etc hold little of my interest
#1 will not happen since HTC will not risk changing a working model of a massive MA - even an imperfect one.
#2 will not happen for the same reason as #1 and for the reason Montezuma stated: "P-51D will never be perked in the MA."
Bozon
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Indeed it will change the balance and the game. Fact is..a new patteren Big 5 or Big 6 or 7 or what ever, will eventually take hold. And presto..someone will re-visit the "Perky issue" again.
That's undeniably true Mugz.
However, that itself, is no reason to resist change at all in the first place. Nobody gets it right at the first time.
Despite new problems rise, things must change to accomodate visible problems. I don't know if you've read the previous incarnation of this thread, but I've done some analysis on the Chog - IMO its 20% usage was broken up into some 4~5 planes.
Yes, a lot of part of that usage has transferred over to the La-7, making it another problematic plane. However, still some parts of usage which previously only the Chog was prevalent at, was broken down into many smaller planes. The Chog isn't extinct from the arena. It's relatively a small perk and people regularly choose it from time to time. However, at the same time there are more F6Fs and Seafire, FM2s, and unperked Hogs flying around as carrier Ops plane. Before the perk, Chog was superior to them all.
Perking the Chog brought some problems which weren't fully solved, but it did solve a lot of other problems too. Stagnance is not the answer.
"Most people dont like change" This is a simple fact played out in the game and here in the BBS more times than we can count. Why do you think players settle in on a givin ride? Cause we have been told, (rightly so) to "find a plane you like and stick with it" this is the single best advise a new player can take. And an old player soon learns that he/she can benifit from this advise as well.
But there are reasons to why certain planes are loved. New players stick to overused planes not because it was love at first sight, but because they were the most useful to them.
Usefulness of planes change as pilot skill progresses. Except, the rate of progress has been slowed down with arena numbers, anonymity, larger and more perilous fights.
When the arena was 200 people, almost every sortie I could find a 1vs1 fight. I'd get shot down. my opponent, and chat about him for a while on what went wrong. Nobody was totally porking my field, and my country wasn't in immediate threat.
Nowadays, channel one is overpopulated with hystery and hostility. Theres rarely anytime to talk about unless you leave the MA and the situation it offers, and bring somebody with you to the DA - a limited condition. More often than not the fights are so big and dangerous, that if I don't get with others and set defensive CAP immediately, the field would be overrun by enemies. Same thing when attacking.
Like I've said before, AH has grown. It's not the "Smallville" anymore. A minimalist approach with certain perks set was enough to motivate people and let them into self-regulation so that the arena was always fun, pleasant, and balanced. It's a "Metropolis" now. Huge numbers of people in it. There's no such thing as self-regulation anymore.
Is perking more stuff like "police" to the community? Perhaps.
However the existence of limitations is from a consensus that despite it regulates our individual freedom, some things must be under control and kept that way for the whole society to work out.
Promoting a perk system that will put/force/manipulate more customers in the Aircraft of an individuals chosing. Or the notion that overhauling the perk system to dictate Whom flys what, or how much it get's flown will "balance" the MA is simply ridiculas.
Same thing holds true for the perked planes right now, does it not? Certainly nobody seemed to like zillion Tempests flying around when they were free at BA. Or, did they like all the 163s and 262s around when it was free before that.
So it's not actually as ridiculous as you might think. People hate it when they see certain planes - especially a handful of high performers - run rampant in the arena.
Inside of 4 months tops, a NEW Cluster of favorites will develop. And would consist of 4 to 6 AC types. ie. 1 to 2 ea.TnBers 3 ea.HITnRunners and 2 ea. ROPEnDopers. Thats about IT!
The cluster will co-exist with the previous section of late war fighters. They are not unavailable nor are they penalizingly high in price. That's the whole key to everything here - perks applied for reduction, not annihilation.
Currently, while about five planes get 45% usage, the rest of the planes individually achieve 2~3% average. The "hangar queens" of early war rides and specialized attack planes get anything between 0% ~ 1%.
In the case of the Chog, 8 points brought its usage down to 2% from 20%. It's not a rare plane. They're not extinct. It COEXISTS with other carrier planes with simular usage to them all. (Except the Seafire, again, overused relatively).
You're assuming that people will gasp at 3 points and entirely give them up and move over to all of the "next best rides" - Like if 10 people use the La-7, all of them will move over to the La-5Fn.
Me, I'm thinking that if its 3 points, about 6 of them will move over to the La-5FN at all times, but some of the 10 people will from time to time indulge with their perks and use the La-7, constantly maintaining about 4 people using the La-7 at any given time.
So instead of 10 people all of them in La-7s, we get six La-5FNs and four La-7s. That's what I'm expecting by perking them so low.
I mean Mugz, wouldn't you fly your favorite perked plane from time to time, if they were about 3~4 points?
If anyone thinks the vast majority plays AH for the romance of the WWII AC ..your Nuts. The majority paly for one simple reason. We want to Beat the other "Human" player. Why AH..cause its simply the game that offers a very large player base (500 to 600+ online at times )In fact..If your were to develope a Modern JET Fighter, massive multiplayer sim.. id bet a weeks wages that much of the AH community would vanish from HTC as soon as word got around. For most players Its about the adrenalin Rush. Give us YF22's F18,s SideWinders, stingers and a 300 player arena.. And all Helll will break lose
Some do, some don't. Whatever reason they fly for is a moot point. Who care why they fly what? All I'm caring is that they feel urged to try different things and enjoy many aircraft for different tasks. They don't want to do that? Then fine. Pay 3 points and fly it all the time.
Ironically Mugz, if they don't care about WW2 ac in the first place, then they might not as well care what they fly and fight with - so is there any reason to feel left out when more planes are perked? Well, according to you they don't care what they fly. Since the perks are applied universally, then everybody is in the same condition.
So, what's anyone got to lose?
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kweassa, the p51 will never be perked, thats a fact.
its the "flagship" plane of AH and alot of people will stop playing (and paying) AH if they wont be able to fly it.
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Your experiances may well be more then mine so thus you may have seen it more then me based on time alone.
And yea I do know what you have to say about em. but to be perfectly honest I'f youve seen me around you will know I dont really give a damn What you, Or anyone else on this planet thinks about just about anything. Your words,thoughts or opinions are no more or less valid then mine or anyone elses.
I am far from being dishonest I am simply telling it as I see it and I stand by my words. This idea that wholesale pork and intentional augering is going on is a crock
You dont like me hitting toolsheds. Either stop hoarding me, or stop me. Your choice
I don’t care anything what you think or what your opinions are. They completely irrelevant to me. You want to hunt tool sheds go ahead. I will call it like I see it, whether you like it or not.
You entered this thread; I didn’t look for you and give a reply to anything you have ever posted (IIRC). Not all opinions are equal or of the same value.
It is the tool sheds hunters that kill themselves to get the last pesky fuel tank in AH1 or the last fh and kill themselves to do it. It is these guys who herd together in their 32 plus member "hoards" err squads.... I don’t care how that statement makes you feel.
And yes you are being dishonest... A quick check of you AH1 scores show this.
This tour alone 191% hit percentage against sheds and you die more then 50% of the time doing it (attack score). You died 28 times out of 36 sorties.
Yeah, you don’t pork auger, it’s just after 2 years in AH you haven’t quite got "dog fighting figured out".
As I said quit being dishonest....
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Originally posted by Batz
I don’t care anything what you think or what your opinions are. They completely irrelevant to me. You want to hunt tool sheds go ahead. I will call it like I see it, whether you like it or not.
You entered this thread; I didn’t look for you and give a reply to anything you have ever posted (IIRC). Not all opinions are equal or of the same value.
It is the tool sheds hunters that kill themselves to get the last pesky fuel tank in AH1 or the last fh and kill themselves to do it. It is these guys who herd together in their 32 plus member "hoards" err squads.... I don’t care how that statement makes you feel.
And yes you are being dishonest... A quick check of you AH1 scores show this.
This tour alone 191% hit percentage against sheds and you die more then 50% of the time doing it (attack score). You died 28 times out of 36 sorties.
Yeah, you don’t pork auger, it’s just after 2 years in AH you haven’t quite got "dog fighting figured out".
As I said quit being dishonest....
So you feel the same way about my opnions as I do yours. Well at least we're on the same page on that issue.
But unless your name is High Tech, Skuzzy, Pyro or any of the paid HTC staff that have the power to actually do something, then yea,. All opinions are equal or of the same value. I dont see how you could think yours is of any more then anyone elses reguardless of how long you've been here. Though you obviously seem to suffer from that dillusion.
Yes I entered this thread. I read it and voiced my opinion just as is my right to. And just as anyone else can. Even you.
And I do not seek you out either. But if you happen to be the one Im responding to on any post. then thats just the way it is. I typically do not respond because of the poster but rather what is posted so dont take that personally, If you do..oh well, life is tough all over.
And dont think I seek you out cause I dont. but dont expect it(my responding to posts) to stop either.
32 member Squads typically do not pork and auger. they dont have to. Typically they come in as is the "hoards" a term I beleive I first coined though I may be wrong. Its just that I am the first one I have seen use the term to discribe these huge masses of people that Steamroll base after base and capture it against what turns into only token resistance due to their sheer numbers.
Though the distain of hoards is another point we seem to agree on though we have different definitions of them.
Difference it I am willing to actually try to do something about them rather then just moan.
which brings me to the next point.
Now not that I owe you any explination cause I certainly do not.
Lemme explain to you how I die more then 50% of the time attacking.
First let me say I really dont care about score or stats. and look at ranking as more a source of amusment inasmuch as it is hardly an indicator of anything meaningful. Ive seen people with crappy rankings that were truely outstanding pilots and people with high rankings that were barely talented enough to be a professional vulcher at a de-acked base.
I, 95% of the time attack the bases which are the greatest threat to the knights. Which means I try to attack the bases the enemy hoards and baseporkers are comming from.
That means I am one of the guys thats not willing to sit around and let my country be steamrolled and prefer to take the fight tothe enemy rather then loiter around my own base hopelessly fighting and awaiting the enevitable feild capture or hoping someone else will do what I do.
So a majority of the time I end up with me against sometimes 10 or more people.
I come in and make a pass a base,fly through the Ack,manned ack,FP and anything else that happens to be there. Sometimes that ground fire will one ping kill me or will do enough damage to make the plane unflyable thus causeing the auger sometimes it doesnt. Often. or I should say the majority of the time that first pass the groundfire at least damages it.
I turn around and do the same thing again with the same results only this time I usually have a bunch of La7's spits, and/or a host of other things chasing after me as well as the ground fire.
Then assuming I have survived the first two passes I am the Fly till ya die type and wont play the chicken$*%t routine of running away and will stick around and offer to fight whoever is there and usually wont try to RTB till I am either very low or till I run outa ammo.
Considering the sheer amount of planes I end up fighting against at this point And considering I fly many of my flights alone its not surprising how I would die so often.
And from what I have seen as both the porker and the one at the base being porked.
Thats what most of the porker types do
So i would hardly call that being dishonest. and hardly has anything to do with figuring out how to dogfight
I highly doubt you would fare any better
You wanna fly to live fine.
I fly for the Knights.
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Another system to represent a time scaled planeset is made supposing the entire WWII will last in........we can say a month ? OK, we can suppose a month, then from 1940 to 1945 will pass a month or 2 weeks or 3 weeks or what ever you want and in this compressed period the planeset will be variable depending on the war time progress.
In example, if the entire war will last in a month (4 weeks), during the 1st week we could see planes from 1940 to middle 1041 and so on, thus in the last week we could see only late war plane monsters and no more Zekes vs Me262s.
Obviously, all the pilots will be forced to progress in themselves skills with different birds.
One thing I was forgetting is: this system require only 2 contry sides like in the reality, Axis and Allies no other no Bishes, Knites , Kings or any other chess figures :p
This is something like WB made some years ago (so it's the reason I don't think HTC will adopt this system).
Any suggestion welcome.
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Nice wall o'text for someone who "doesn't care".
You addressed your comments at me in this thread, not on the topic. So you must "care" in relation to what I have posted. When you do respond to me my reply will be honest and to the point as shown above.
You don’t know how I fly so there's no need to make stuff up. Your under 3 kills per hour shows you don’t dog fight...
You can have fun however you can find it but in my judgment (even though harsh) why bother playing an air combat game to spend time flying into the ground...?
Of my 10385 posts on this forum over 4 years (as Wotan and Batz, most on event forums and other private forums) or so I don’t recall responding to anything you have ever posted. Unless you reply directly to me I doubt I will have reason to reply to you in the future.
Now look how far away that tool shed has gotten while you spend time on the forums. You better go get it before it slips away completely...
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Clouds: It was the system pyro and I created. It didn't work as well as we hoped.
HiTech
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Hehe Dredi, "horde" is a term I've coined first some years back, when the Rooks were in the bucket, and Bishops were with most numbers. It was when AW seemingly went out of service and new people started gathering in to the MA, and the arena numbers first went over 300 people.
It was those days the gigantic base crushing missions surfaced for the very first time, started by Fariz of the 9th GIAP in Bishops. He was the very first person to choose the Typhoons as the new premiere ground-attacker plane, replacing the perked Chog.. and since then, the Typhoons have become one of the "Big Five". Up to that day, nobody in the MA had seen anything like it. There were all kinds of small "sweep" missions and large "bomber" missions, but never has anyone seen fighter-bombers amassed in such a large scale and used with such incredible brutality.
One day, after being base-busted again, by Fariz and his stooges :D I cried out in dismay, "the frickin' horde's coming again".. and history of the 'horde' started in AH. :)
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32 member Squads typically do not pork and auger. they dont have to. Typically they come in as is the "hoards" a term I beleive I first coined though I may be wrong. Its just that I am the first one I have seen use the term to discribe these huge masses of people that Steamroll base after base and capture it against what turns into only token resistance due to their sheer numbers.
Its not something to do with the squads, but rather the number of it all. Opinions can be different on who 'started' the 'horde' term, but one thing for certain is it began with Fariz's Typhoon raid missions first, which the Knights and some of their capable squads such as the FBs and Damneds quickly adopted. And with the increase of such deadly use of force, the RJO was firmly organized to fight back against the onslaught.
What was so surprising and fearful of such missions, was that it was in a fashion which was unseen before. I don't know if Fariz has foreseen through it, or it was an accidental happening, but consequentially it brought a whole new concept of "force by numbers" into the MA.
Previously, before that point, missions were generally small-scale. They were tightly formed, with squad-individuals participating and trying to follow an organized fashion as if it was real-life WW2 missions - waypoints. However, the gigantic Typhy raids was something totally new. It made full use of the single largest resource available in all countries - namely, the large number of new pilots newly recruited into AH.
The new types of missions generally didn't seem to care about a certain style or organization. There wasn't any section or wing leaders. There was only the flight leader, who formed a mission, and the rest of the people - incredibly large number of people by the standards of those days - followed. There objective was simple and not complicated. Lift-off, follow, and then attack any base object of opportunity. This mission had a large number of people who were marginally trained, or untrained at all in squad operations. Most of them are lacking in bomb-lobbing skills and such, but what they lacked in precision they made up with incredible numbers. And it was unbelievably powerful. There was basically no stopping it. It didn't matter how many people died through the attack, or how some people smack and augered.
As long as the initial objective of destroying important field strats were fulfilled - no matter what the cost(which includes suicidal runs) - the defenders air power was decimated almost in an instant.
You're right, in that nobody wants to willingly kill themselves to get a job done.
However, the following consequences was that there wasn't any need to motivate or train pilots anymore. As long as they know how to fly and change directions, and press the bomb release button, they could turn the tide of the battle for air-superiority. There is no price to pay for our deaths, while the end-result of such attack runs pays off very high dividends.
The cost-effectiveness of such missions was so high, that basically it totally got rid of any need of the painstaking process of becoming a better pilot. You don't have to be a good pilot anymore, to help your country. The outcome is the observation as Batz sees - 'suicdal porking'. It wasn't intended to be a suicide, but the end result is the same. It's the easy way to crush your opponent, without having to fight in the air at all - destroy them while they're at the ground.
It's a brutally effective tactical concept, except it ruins the fun as an air-combat game.
...
Now I understand what you feel, because I've experiened the exact same thing. It was a long time ago, but the Rooks were in the bucket once. I'd do the same thing - taking off, going NOE, approaching the enemy field and hoping to knock out their fuels, so our main base could finally be rid of the insane numbers of enemy fighters terrorizing it. Basically, it's an "eye for eye" sort of tactic. They come in hordes to bust our base? Fine, I go in stealthy and bust their base in retribution - kill most of the fuels so our friends have time to regroup and fight back.
Now, at this point, this discussion converges with the main theme of the thread. I don't think it's any one individuals fault. I don't see this as Batz does - it's not the individual "dweebey" mindset that is the problem.
The MA has been shaped into that way, and people simply follow the most effective way they know to crush opposition - namely, steamrolling enemy bases. In turn, the defending side has no choice but to use the same tactics against the attacker - go and destroy their stats to delay attack.
That, is why, I want to help shape the arena into something else. Steam rolling is effective due to the fact, that the aircraft capable of such attacks are positively impossible to intercept. Its free. Its damn fast. You need an aircraft substantially higher top speed, to stop a Typhoon coming in at 8~10k which just dives straight to the field full throttle, when they see interceptors. More often than not, its impossible to stop them in the air.
A P-51D, or a Typhoon or a P-38L dives very fast, making it very difficult to catch(although the P-38L compresses, and that's why so many people auger in it..). They carry a 2k bomb load. You know how difficult it is to land an effective hit with only a 500lbs bomb. However, if a plane has 2k load, it could land it in the general area and the bomb blast will effectively knock the target out.
That is why the steamrolling is so effective - the pilot may be auger, but he'll get the job done. The payload, divespeed, and top speed of the plane allows it so. It's cost efficient and doesn't require high level of skill for the pilot. Just fly there, dive, and drop whether you die or not.
The planes I'm asking to perk, are also (mostly) the planes that carry highest payloads. Would the steamrolling be so effective when it takes a really careful drop to land a single 500lbs directly at the target?
I think not.
Would the pilot, however 'dweebey' he may be, be willing to constantly risk loss of 3 perk points again and again in such base-attacks?
I think not, again.
If the perks will shift the plane usage to mid-war planes which carry a smaller payload, and has lower top speed - I'm thinking that the steam-roller just won't be efficient or worthwhile to risk dying for. I told you I've done the same thing when we were in the bucket. I did that because I knew, that even if I die, my heavy ordnance load will bust the field strats, which will immediately help my friends fight back.
I wouldn't feel that way if I had to do it with a plane with a single 500lbs or single 1k bomb. I'd probably have to die again and again and again, and still wouldn't do enough damage to stop the enemy. This works both ways - both for the defender and the attackers.
Or, if the perks will shift the plane usage to ground attack planes which carry higher payload, but significantly disadvantaged in an A2A fight - such as the 110, Mossie, A-20, IL-2, etc etc.. - then they're much easier to intercept.
That, is one of the reasons why I'm advocating this perk idea. Arena balance is one reason, this, is the other.
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1st you both got history wrong...
Ripsnort's Mag 33 turned the mission planner into a gang bang planner (search that) along time ago.
I remember when I was in JV44 "Wuerger-Staffel" upping at a field in a g2 and watching hogs splatter all around me. One time F6Fs came in and I got 8 kills with out firing a shot.
Soon they would send blitz out in advance and he could de-ack an entire large field by himself, in fact I went offline and practiced for hours until I could do what he could do in terms of deacking.
Then came Fariz's missions. At first they were guaranteed good fights. The best Ah has had. Typhoons and a2a fights all over.
Then his missions grew as the AH main numbers grew. This became the "horde" we see today. A bunch newbs coming in as cannon fodder committing suicide to get the ack down and the vets would follow in for the vulches. There was even a cartoon made of Fariz and the horde following him over a cliff. I gave Fariz grief for this but to be fair I don’t think it was his intent. The exuberance of his followers and their need to "contribute" lead them into all sorts of silly behavior, like pork and auger.
Search "death per jabo (or buildings destroyed)"
As more AW folks came and the number of new guys grew the numbers of these huge missions multiplied.
Now it has become common place. Air combat has turned into territorial combat with no regard to living "I am dead but at least I got the last fuel tank"
So dred you didn’t coin anything. You don’t even know what you are talking about.
The problem is the impact these types of raids have had on the other folks who just want to up for an hour so and have a few good fights. Some group of 3 or 4 suicide jabo tards can’t dive kill the fhs and themselves and end the fun of 50 plus other guys.
So as time moved on the old guys who just wanted a good fight flew less. No we have more run and more suicide.
I don’t care how any one enjoys there time, it’s their money it’s up to them to determine what’s fun for them. However, I will never understand how some could pay money to do some of the things we see.
I am sure 70 folk will come in here and claim "offense" by what I just typed, well so what. That's just how things are.
To be fair though AH2 so far has had some excellent fights. Slowly more of the main moves in but for now its great fun and well worth 15 dollars even as a beta...
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Originally posted by Kweassa
It was those days the gigantic base crushing missions surfaced for the very first time, started by Fariz of the 9th GIAP in Bishops. He was the very first person to choose the Typhoons as the new premiere ground-attacker plane, replacing the perked Chog.. and since then, the Typhoons have become one of the "Big Five".
A little correction here :)
I think the 1st mass usage of the Typhoon was by the Firebird ... and ahem... I did lead this "mission" :D
Fariz was in the Firebird at this time :)
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Dweeb :p
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Hi Pyro.....really did u create those stuffs.
Unfortunately I was not there to see those things and for testing :p but I must believe in you if you say that.
I only know in WB these stuffs are there since years (and you know this ;) )
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Hehe Dredi, "horde" is a term I've coined first some years back, when the Rooks were in the bucket, and Bishops were with most numbers. It was when AW seemingly went out of service and new people started gathering in to the MA, and the arena numbers first went over 300 people.
It was those days the gigantic base crushing missions surfaced for the very first time, started by Fariz of the 9th GIAP in Bishops. He was the very first person to choose the Typhoons as the new premiere ground-attacker plane, replacing the perked Chog.. and since then, the Typhoons have become one of the "Big Five". Up to that day, nobody in the MA had seen anything like it. There were all kinds of small "sweep" missions and large "bomber" missions, but never has anyone seen fighter-bombers amassed in such a large scale and used with such incredible brutality.
One day, after being base-busted again, by Fariz and his stooges :D I cried out in dismay, "the frickin' horde's coming again".. and history of the 'horde' started in AH. :)
Not quite correct Kweassa! :)
Actually it wasn't 9 GIAP but 'Firebirds' 56 (Fighter) Sqn back in 2000 http://firebirds.2ndtaf.org.uk/Firebirds_in_Aces_High.htm. Typhoon's were our squadron plane and we would fly them on squad nights. I had originally formed the Firebirds but left and temporarily formed 74 (Tiger) Sqn. I noticed that Fariz had rejoined AH after being out of AH for several months and upon his return I invited him to 74 Sqn and almost immediately we both rejoined the Firebirds (I was original CO of 56 Sqn replaced by Vladd who is still the current CO). Our squad nights got more popular as more and more non-squaddies joined his missions. Firebirds, along with 418 Sqn - Hornets, 249 Sqn - Gold Coast and 9 Sqn (and briefly 308 Polish Sqn) were part of the 2nd Tactical Air Force in AH in an attempt to counter Ripsnorts MAG-33. It was during this time that Bishops actually started to win resets - none of us had seen any since the Rooks and, especially, Knights were the dominant country in AH. I would say that the 'CHOG/DHOG' horde was the 'original' horde aircraft used by MAG33 from carrier groups.
We both left the Firebirds and he went on to form 9 GIAP where he continued to do missions to help Bishland capture bases.
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Originally posted by straffo
A little correction here :)
I think the 1st mass usage of the Typhoon was by the Firebird ... and ahem... I did lead this "mission" :D
Fariz was in the Firebird at this time :)
Yup, good times back then! Straffo, Spooky 67, Dudule, nonoht were part of Firebirds 'Alsace' flight! :)
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The Firebird's in typhoons were great fun fights nothing like what came after..........
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Originally posted by Batz
The Firebird's in typhoons were great fun fights nothing like what came after..........
True to a certain extent. Originally a 'squad night' plane with perhaps from 8 - 16 Typhoon's and then when missions started getting posted (any time during week rather than squadnight) anything up to 40 people!
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Originally posted by Batz
Dweeb :p
yep :)
But I do think it was fun for all sides as the number where not too enormous it was about 20 pilots ...
Plus augering was a good way to be laughted at by fellow squadies during some evening after :D
Nexx I'm still in touch with Spooky who might be back for AH2 ,Dudule is still stuck in his B1Bis somewhere in the north of France and might be back to but unfortunatly I've no news of nonoht :(
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Ironically Mugz, if they don't care about WW2 ac in the first place,
Originally posted by mugzeee
If anyone thinks the vast majority plays AH for the romance of the WWII AC ..your Nuts.
Escuse me..where did i say they Dont care which AC they fly?
The point is that most dont romance WWII AC like you do. Its a Kill game for them. So yes.. they do care that they fly a plane they are comfortable in. End result. Big 5
In the grand schem of the MA, they dont give a hoot about the grade of bolts that were used to attach the wing thats keeping them aloft. They simply want to come home from a hard days work. Sit down with a cool beverage and Kill Something! They dont want to be bothered with thinking "how many perks do i have?" "Or how many do i have to spend?" Nope, They just want to hit the FLY button and go for a kill. Thats the game thats the way its played by the majority. It a time for having fun. Not for "doing the math" everytime they want to fly. while you may find this fun..I would bet my life MOST dont want to be bothered with such annoyances. Originally posted by Kweassa
then they might not as well care what they fly and fight with - so is there any reason to feel left out when more planes are perked? Well, according to you they don't care what they fly. Since the perks are applied universally, then everybody is in the same condition.
So, what's anyone got to lose?
Looks to me that YOU are the one who said players dont care what they fly. Putting words in someones mouth is unbecoming :(
Originally posted by Kweassa
Some do, some don't. Whatever reason they fly for is a moot point. Who care why they fly what? All I'm caring is that they feel urged to try different things and enjoy many aircraft for different tasks. They don't want to do that? Then fine. Pay 3 points and fly it all the time. [/qoute]
Sorry but which is it? You do care what they fly, or you dont? This paragraph along with you perk proposal indicates that you most definenly DO care what other players fly,. So much so, that you are devising a way to manipulate them into planes of your choosing. Otherwise you wouldnt have spent so much time stating your case.
Making everyone pay perks for every ride is ludicrist.
You seem to think it will "Balance" the MA.
Im simply saying that from the stand point of the average players point of view. It imposses something on them they wont like and isnt going "Balance" "MA Game Play" What it will do is to stir the pot and Piss ppl off. Again. Seems that someone is always trying to impose their idea of fun on others.
Ive said my peice................. OUT! :)
I guess my point is that IMO you proposal is "Moot" and Much to do about nothing.
Salute and happy hunting :)
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i seen the 38 perk thingie, i hope you were kidding. i understand the large ord load and all, but like others have said, no other variants(which may be changed in the near future:D ), be rather harsh. besides
The P-38L has 4191 kills and has been killed 5119 times
thats this tour so far. not so good.
as far as the idea, i like it, new perk values would be nice. prolly a good time to adjust them as well.
~S~
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I stand corrected. Firebird's it is!
:D
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Originally posted by straffo
A little correction here :)
I think the 1st mass usage of the Typhoon was by the Firebird ... and ahem... I did lead this "mission" :D
Fariz was in the Firebird at this time :)
This is true. Typhoon mission was not my invention. It was started by Firebirds at their squad nights and lead by different DCO each night, including me.
It was funny to hear all the whining, specially when it was 50 b26s mission for a high bases capture. Looked nice indeed. :)
I also have a screenshots of a goons mission which takes base defended by about 10 fighters and several gvs in a town :) BTW, massive goons mission was a Ripsnort invention also.
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the underlying problem that a lot of the older vets recognize is that a country does not need a good A2A population to be successful.
In fact air superiority has become completely irrelevant. As Kweassa aptly points out, wave after wave of base porkers with no motivation to survive is unstoppable.
The irony is that currently HTC has an aircombat sim where aircombat skills are useless in winning "the war".
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This whole "winning the war" business has really gotten out of hand. Clouds of unopposed fighters isn't too much fun for anybody, well unless that is all you know. This takes away from the air combat dimension and places emphasis on something else. Whether that is a good or bad thing depends on you point of view - and maybe how long you have played flight sims. The kids are into a different style and level of play than the older folks.