Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Widewing on June 05, 2004, 08:27:40 PM
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I believe that the two most important Presidents of the 20th century were Theodore Roosevelt and Ronald Reagan. FDR runs a close third.
TR was far and away the most progressive and liberal President on social issues of the first 32 years of the century. At the time of his two terms, he was exactly what the country needed. He changed the basic fabric of the capitalistic system by crushing the oppressive big business trusts. He was America's first "green" thinking President. He was the perfect man for the time.
Ronald Reagan brought the country new hope and used the economic power of the country to force the Soviet Union into economic and idealistic bankruptcy. Quite literally, Reagan's policies ended the Cold War.
Roosevelt died on January 6th, 1919. At the time he was one of the most popular and respected men in the country.
Reagan died today, June 5th 2004. He was still one of the most popular and respected men in the country.
These were very different men, but were the perfect men for the Presidency in their time. I suspect that it will be many years before we see the like of either sitting in the Oval Office.
I don't see any of the current crop coming even close to measuring up to the above mentioned gentlemen. Indeed, we are at a low ebb for quality in politicians. Let's hope that there is an upswing before too long.
My regards,
Widewing
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First I heared that he died.
I dont know that he was a greatest president. But he was a historic one. And a strong leader.
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Unfortunately they're probably cheering in San Francisco that he's dead...
Gipper!
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Widewing, did you read Flyboys yet?
Not very complimentary of TR.
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I liked the fact that he had a posative attitude about America. Alot of democrates at the time looked at America with disdane and hatred for all the bad deeds it had committed. I think this is were he says "I did not leave the democratic party it left me"
He saw a threat in communism and he dealt w/ it. This day makes me sad.
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Originally posted by Toad
Widewing, did you read Flyboys yet?
Not very complimentary of TR.
No, I haven't read it. I'm not sure how Teddy Roosevelt fits into a story about air battles around Chi Chi Jima. Are you sure that you're not confusing Franklin Roosevelt with TR?
But, let's look at what TR accomplished. He organized and eliminated much of the corruption with the NYPD when he was commissioner. He had the smarts to order the Pacific fleet to war footing BEFORE war was declared on Spain (TR was Under-secretary of the Navy). He earned the Congressional Medal of Honor. He won the Nobel Peace Prize. He was responsible for the building of the Panama Canal. He brought down the Business Trusts, TR was responsible for many of the Fair Labor laws that now exist. He began the construction of a modern US battle fleet that rivaled any on earth. He set aside more wilderness as national parks than all other Presidents combined.
Whatever his faults, no President since Lincoln did more for his country than Teddy Roosevelt. When you look at Mount Rushmore, you see Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln and Roosevelt.
My regards,
Widewing
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Pres. Ronald Reagan was our last President that fit the Leader category.
You may not have liked him, some in Congress didn't like him. If I remember correctly when he entered Office the majority of both houses were democratic. Party affiliation not that important.
Anyhow....he got America as a whole, and the Congress also to follow his lead. Democrats passed his legislation, if the Legislation passed in Congress and Pres. Reagan thought it needed a few tweaks, Pres. Reagan got the tweaks before it came to the White House for his signature.
He was an icon for the word Leader. He got most to work together. Pulled this country out of an economic period I remember well. I bought my first House in 1980 and was paying 13% Interest on a 30 year loan. Inflation and the economy were in a shambles. Hostages being held in Iran etc.
The great communicator talked to Americans. Let them know his plans....explained his policies and reasons for those policies. When he retired as President of the United States he had the highest approval rating of any American President in History!
Through his work Americans felt better, about many things....including their Country and themselves. Optimisim became contageous. And the Country was better for it.
I don't have any particular party affiliation....as a matter of fact I'm not fond of Politicians. I call Ronald Reagan a leader......not a Politician. Reason? He got the country working together. He actually led from the front....and got the people of the US to follow.
Something I didn't see before his Presidency...except for maybe JFK.....and I've definately not seen the ability to lead...even remotely....... in any President that has been elected since he left Office.
Mr President......Job Well done!
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I'm only just into the book but Bradley starts out from an unusual place/view.
He starts from a historical perspective of actions Japan and the Western powers in the Pacific Rim.
So far, he's establishing a link between the barbarity of the "flyboy" killings on Chichi Jima and those earlier times.
Some of TR's actual quotes don't show him in a very favorable light with respect to "human rights" by today's standards.
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agree with widewing... Teddy and Ron.. best presidents ever. Perfect for their time. Would love to have gone shooting or sparred with teddy or hung out on the ranch with Regan.
lazs
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Originally posted by Toad
I'm only just into the book but Bradley starts out from an unusual place/view.
He starts from a historical perspective of actions Japan and the Western powers in the Pacific Rim.
So far, he's establishing a link between the barbarity of the "flyboy" killings on Chichi Jima and those earlier times.
Some of TR's actual quotes don't show him in a very favorable light with respect to "human rights" by today's standards.
I have read most if not all published quotations of TR's thoughts on Japan and the Japanese. Many display the typical western outlook on oriental societies, which means being less open-minded than we would find appealing today. Nonetheless, TR admired most of the Japanese he met and worked with. During negotiations to end the Russo-Sino war, Japan's chief negotiator Jutaro Komura arrived at the President's Long Island home in Oyster Bay (called Sagamore Hill). TR put him up in the "special guestroom". During his visit, Komura and TR became fast friends. Komura entertained TR's children with exotic stories of Japan at the dinner table. Komura joined TR on hikes, went riding with him in the countryside and participated in family outtings. When Komura left for Washington to continue negotiations with the Russians, he knew he could trust and depend on TR to reel the Russians into negotiating in good faith.
TR was not as impressed with the Russian representative, Sergei Witte. In fact, TR was often harsh in his comments about Russian "buffoonery". He was unimpressed with the Russians, and the Czar in particular.
On the other hand, he was very much impressed with the Japanese. Roosevelt stated that "the Japanese interest me, and I like them very much." Yet, he did not believe that he could put his full weight of trust in them. Again, the ingrained cultural prejudices of the times were difficult for one to overcome, even in one's own thinking. TR felt that Japan was fully capable of presenting one face in public and another to itself. While I discuss TR, I should also point out that the Japanese were far less tolerant of westerners than the west was of Japan. That sword certainly cuts both ways.
He was concerned that the growing influence of the Military in Japan could lead to conflict with America in the not so distant future. Komura had explained how Japan's military leaders saw the US presence in the Philippines as a threat to Japanese nationalism and their self-precieved manifest destiny of dominating the western Pacific. TR stated that he hoped that conflict could be avoided as he "greatly admired the Japanese people." His foresight would prove accurate 30 years later when Japan began expansion on the asian continent.
If you were to visit TR's Sagamore Hill estate, you will find the house decorated with the many gifts he received from Japanese visitors and the Japanese Government, including some marvelous swords and artworks.
While TR personally admired the Japanese, make no mistake that he was very much a man of his times and his thinking, now frowned upon as being prejudicial, was still far more open-minded than his contemporaries. Remember, what we see as being intolerant today was viewed as being extremely liberal at the turn of the 20th century.
Bradley, or any other 21st century historian would be wise to understand that their modern vista must allow for the cultural differences of the era in question when they offer any type of critical analysis, be it of Roosevelt or the Japanese.
My regards,
Widewing
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I wonder how he would of handled the situation now?
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I am saddened....deeply....being the first president that my wife and I had voted for (age restrictions...LOL...) for us it was a bit more personal.
He was a great President in my mind. I am sad for his family and for the country. I will miss him.
I salute you Mr Reagan!!!!
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(http://www.reaganranch.org/best/C5862_full.jpg)
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Originally posted by Monk
I wonder how he would of handled the situation now?
I am quite sure that TR would have looked to the Saudi's as the root of the problem. It has been Saudi oil money that has financed Islamic extremist groups, and TR believed that evil should be cut off at its source. I'm sure that the "big stick" would have fallen on the Saudi Princes rather than on Iraq.
Without financing, terror is difficult to export. There is plenty of evidence that many millions, perhaps even billions of dollars of Saudi money has been funneled to terrorists since the late 1960s. Saudi Arabia is the First National Bank of terror. TR would have closed the bank.
My regards,
Widewing
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I am also convinced that Reagan would have done the same thing.
My regards,
Widewing
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Outstanding point..
Too often people look at people of the past and incorrectly try to apply todays standards to past eras.
Attitudes and thinking were alot different in past eras then they are today. 100 years from now people will be trying to apply their standards to our times and view us in alot of ways in an unfavorable light in some ways And in a favorable light in others.
Originally posted by Widewing
I have read most if not all published quotations of TR's thoughts on Japan and the Japanese. Many display the typical western outlook on oriental societies, which means being less open-minded than we would find appealing today.
If you were to visit TR's Sagamore Hill estate, you will find the house decorated with the many gifts he received from Japanese visitors and the Japanese Government, including some marvelous swords and artworks.
While TR personally admired the Japanese, make no mistake that he was very much a man of his times and his thinking, now frowned upon as being prejudicial, was still far more open-minded than his contemporaries. Remember, what we see as being intolerant today was viewed as being extremely liberal at the turn of the 20th century.
Brady, or any other 21st century historian would be wise to understand that their modern vista must allow for the cultural differences of the era in question when they offer any type of critical analysis, be it of Roosevelt or the Japanese.
My regards,
Widewing
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It's not his attitude towards the Japanese that is politically incorrect nowadays.
Mostly, it's TR's views on other folks as somewhat less than human.
It's too detailed to discuss here, but I find it an interesting read so far. Right now, I'm only to the point of the war's beginning. Brady's view of how the Japanese viewed the lead up decades to the war is pretty interesting and it does not show TR in a good light.
There's quite a bit like this, which is not a direct quote but from a review:
The killing of Filipino Prisoners of War (POW’s) was official US policy and the standard army torture of the day was called the "water cure." "America replaced the oppressor and adopted the same methods - widespread torture, concentration camps, the killing of disarmed prisoners and helpless civilians - but with a ruthlessness that surpassed even that of the Spanish." (JB) Spain’s brutality against civilians had been the rationale for the US invasion. President Teddy Roosevelt had this to say when the slaughter "officially" ended in 1902: after hailing "the bravery of American soldiers" who fought "for the triumph of civilization over the black chaos of savagery and barbarism," he declared it "the most glorious war in the nation’s history."
Like I said, it's a contrarian viewpoint to how we view ourselves now. TR does not come off well, however.
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Originally posted by Toad
It's not his attitude towards the Japanese that is politically incorrect nowadays.
Mostly, it's TR's views on other folks as somewhat less than human.
It's too detailed to discuss here, but I find it an interesting read so far. Right now, I'm only to the point of the war's beginning. Brady's view of how the Japanese viewed the lead up decades to the war is pretty interesting and it does not show TR in a good light.
There's quite a bit like this, which is not a direct quote but from a review:
Like I said, it's a contrarian viewpoint to how we view ourselves now. TR does not come off well, however.
Does Bradley mention that when informed of the torture and brutality in the PI, that TR ordered the Secretary of War to organize a commission to investigate the charges? Does he mention that several high ranking Army officers were sacked and in some cases charged and and convicted of their crimes?
Or, is Bradley off on one of his self-righteous rants again?
My regards,
Widewing
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Widewing, Portsmuth peace treaty was probably the greatest Russian diplomatic victory since st. Alexander of Neva and his agreements with Golden Horde. The whole Russo-Japanese (not Russi-Sino) war was the greatest defeat we faced, maybe even worse then Crimean war of 1853-55... I have heard that TR was quite impressed by Sergey Witte, and Witte simply played on American public opinion to get all possible support, that Japanese failed to do.
Looking from the different side of the world (geographically, politically and culturally) I see two greatest American presidents of XX century: FDR and Reagan. Both being too different in the issues of relations with my country. In early 30s FDR used trade with USSR to help overcoming a Depression, and later cooperated with Soviet Union to fight nazism. Reagan used foolish Gorby's politics to destroy my country by turning it from a foe to an "ally", at the same time draining Soviet industry by the SDI programm (a greatest provocation, compared only to Khryschev's missile bluff)...
Reagan was an enemy, but a honorable one. My hat off for him.
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I suppose I could laboriously type out 10 pages of the book or so but I think I'll pass.
Give it a read if you are curious.
As for me, I'll finish it, perhaps do some collateral reading/verification and form an opinion.
I will say this: Bradley makes you think in the first 50 pages. Something not a lot of authors accomplish these days.
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Originally posted by Toad
It's not his attitude towards the Japanese that is politically incorrect nowadays.
Mostly, it's TR's views on other folks as somewhat less than human.
Compaired to TR and all the things he went through and accomplished in his life. Most other folks were.. and still are.
LOL
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Originally posted by Widewing
I am also convinced that Reagan would have done the same thing.
Who knows. Reagan dramatically improved our relations with Saudi Arabia and let them have AWACs and F-15s, which really pissed off the Isrealis.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Widewing, Portsmuth peace treaty was probably the greatest Russian diplomatic victory since st. Alexander of Neva and his agreements with Golden Horde. The whole Russo-Japanese (not Russi-Sino) war was the greatest defeat we faced, maybe even worse then Crimean war of 1853-55... I have heard that TR was quite impressed by Sergey Witte, and Witte simply played on American public opinion to get all possible support, that Japanese failed to do.
Roosevelt's letters indicate that he was not at all impressed with Witte. He wrote the following to his son Kermit: "The Japanese ask too much, but the Russians are ten times worse than the Japs because they are so stupid and won't tell the truth."
A day later he wrote to American diplomat William Rockhill, "Bad as the Chinese are, no human beings, black, yellow or white, could be as untruthful, as insincere, as arrogant - in short as untrustworthy in every way - as the Russians under their present system. I was pro-Japanese before, but after my experience with the (Russian) peace commissioners I am far stronger pro-japanese than ever."
Japan very much impressed TR when they allowed the Czar enough wiggle room to arrive at peace and not find himself (the Czar) deposed as a result. TR praised the Emperor for his, "wisdom and magnanimity".
Once the agreement had been signed, TR confided in his friend Arthur Lee, "There were moments during the peace conference at Portsmouth when I earnestly wished I could get the entire Russian government to the top of Cooper's Bluff and run them violently down a steep place into the sea!"
TR worked tirelessly to convince Japan to make concessions, even though as victors, that was a lot to ask of them. Nonetheless, he did prevail upon Japan to do so. Any perceived Russian diplomatic victory can be attributed directly to Theodore Roosevelt and his influence with Japan. Indeed, TR did not receive the Nobel Peace prize for merely being a referee.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Widewing
I am quite sure that TR would have looked to the Saudi's as the root of the problem. It has been Saudi oil money that has financed Islamic extremist groups, and TR believed that evil should be cut off at its source. I'm sure that the "big stick" would have fallen on the Saudi Princes rather than on Iraq.
Without financing, terror is difficult to export. There is plenty of evidence that many millions, perhaps even billions of dollars of Saudi money has been funneled to terrorists since the late 1960s. Saudi Arabia is the First National Bank of terror. TR would have closed the bank.
My regards,
Widewing
The whole Iraq mess back to 90 would have been alot different with Reagan. I cant believe he would have let Sadam believe an invasion of Kuwiet had US support. And if he had to invade Iraq I would like to think he would have finished it.
The Bushes are strange shadows of Reagan.
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I read about one thing reagon did to aid in the downfall of the USSR.......He went to OPEC and got them to turn the well heads wide open.
Not only did this provide cheaper petroleum but it also undercut russian oil. It made it more expensive for them to pump the stuff than they could sell it for.