Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: pellik on June 07, 2004, 12:09:58 PM
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I've noticed a lot of changes in the flight model while making the switch to AH2. Some of which are obvious and anticipated as they have been listed as key features for some time. Others are subtle and new, and cause me much grief as I find I'm unable to predict what planes can do. I'd like to get a thread going to list and discuss what changes people percieve, to help make sense of the switch to AH2.
The change that has been causing me the most grief the last few days is in reguards to the nose down performance of the american fighters. Basically, they seem to have a much harder time burning energy nose down, which is devestating to a group of fighters that practically made their living on nose-low low turn radii. If you want to get a feel for what I'm talking about compare low alt split-s performance in the FM2, or P38 with flaps extended, in AH1 to AH2. In AH1 both of these planes used to be able to make a hard turn that spits, with their excellent E retention, couldn't follow. Now I find that they have some of the worst nose down turn radii in the game, and as a result I auger frequently. This is only in reguards to a true split-s, not low yo-yos. I'd have thought that with all the extra lift the 38 seems to have gotten in AH2 it would be able to convert its nose down accelleration into turn even faster, thus reducing its radius. This change also dramatically hampers trying to press an altitude advantage in american fighters, as they have a much harder time getting an angle if they start with a little extra alt. Very bad for vertical BnZers. Anyone else notice these changes?
I know gunnery is different. Has anyone figured out all the changes to it in the new system? I could really use some pointers in how to adjest my leading for high angle shots.
I've started to notice some changes in stall characteristics of the slower single engine planes. I watched a f6f go up with my 38 into the vertical and keep the thing pointed up all the way until ~50mph. Shouldn't the torque have thrown his nose down pretty quick once he lost enough speed to get any milage out of his rudder? At least he should have had a hard time getting out of the ensuing stall. As it is he got his nose up just as quick as my 38, which should have hold all the cards with neutral torque. My suspicion is that combat trim was just working too well for the guy, perfectly countering the changes in flight controls that would normally have thrown him out of plane much quicker.
These are the changes I've noticed most. I'd like to hear about other changes as well, I'm not just here to gripe.
-pellik
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Originally posted by pellik
I know gunnery is different. Has anyone figured out all the changes to it in the new system? I could really use some pointers in how to adjest my leading for high angle shots.
As far as I know, nothing has changed in the actual ballistics model. As such, your lead for high angle shots should remain exactly the same as before. HTC did change two things that might make timing or aiming such shots a bit more difficult however. First, icons now appear below enemy planes rather than above. Many folks used the icon to time shots where the enemy was actually below their noses and out of the line of sight; the new system removes that advantage. Second, you no longer see hit sprites below your nose. Those shots still hit with the same kind of lead as before, but you won't have the visual reference telling you that you fired accurately unless you actually see the enemy.
So keep firing as you always did, but don't count on the same sorts of visual or timing clues that you once enjoyed. After a brief adjustment period, you'll find that the new changes don't really affect your aim much at all.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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I am not a good enough stick to comment, not do I have enough flight time!
I just wanted to throw you another , the fight low with me in a Spit 9 and you in the 38 we had the other day was a stand out moment for me for fun!
Man watching you fly that 38 was like seeing art in motion!
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WRT gunnery, we had a good thread going in the AHIII forum:
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=117471
As far as the flight model changes, the only thing I've noticed is an increased tendancy to depart into a spin at the top of my loops (sort of the opposite of what the F6Fs did), and a greater chance of a stall/spin while ****ting myself in low alt/high speed maneuvers.
-Sik
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Planes seem to have more inertia now, and heavier planes tend to slide through the Split-S much more than before...IMO
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Early beta had much much more torque, even takeoffs were quite challenging - F4U would kill you. Planes like the 38 had a huge clear advange even against a Zeek. May have been "more real" but I don't know if they'd been able to sell AH that way (well except to 38 pilots..
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Originally posted by Zanth
Early beta had much much more torque, even takeoffs were quite challenging - F4U would kill you. Planes like the 38 had a huge clear advange even against a Zeek. May have been "more real" but I don't know if they'd been able to sell AH that way (well except to 38 pilots..
Test of pilot skill and mettle, in the CT our CQ's were contingent on To and landings with F4U full loadouts....not as challenging anymore, but far fewer ditches ....
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"Second, you no longer see hit sprites below your nose"
Is that a planned feature or a flaw?
...-Gixer
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Originally posted by Gixer
Is that a planned feature or a flaw?
That's planned. It's really more of a bug fix than a new feature.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Red Tail 444
Planes seem to have more inertia now, and heavier planes tend to slide through the Split-S much more than before...IMO
I agree with the weight/inertia thing, but it works both ways. Try the P47D-40 now, it has an incredible zoom climb in AH2. I notice better zoom climbs with F6f as well, great for roping light turners like spits and nikis.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Zanth
Early beta had much much more torque, even takeoffs were quite challenging - F4U would kill you. Planes like the 38 had a huge clear advange even against a Zeek. May have been "more real" but I don't know if they'd been able to sell AH that way (well except to 38 pilots..
Any advantage the 38 had is long gone now. It is IMHO one of the biggest hunks of junk in the game now. The 51 was given a healthy dose of steroids and the 38 has had its nuts removed. Ahh well...
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Originally posted by pellik
I've started to notice some changes in stall characteristics of the slower single engine planes. I watched a f6f go up with my 38 into the vertical and keep the thing pointed up all the way until ~50mph. Shouldn't the torque have thrown his nose down pretty quick once he lost enough speed to get any milage out of his rudder? At least he should have had a hard time getting out of the ensuing stall. As it is he got his nose up just as quick as my 38, which should have hold all the cards with neutral torque. My suspicion is that combat trim was just working too well for the guy, perfectly countering the changes in flight controls that would normally have thrown him out of plane much quicker.
Yep, the stall is the weakest point of AH2 FM. You can't get a plane into a spin, instead it starts to tumble it's way down. Also you have way too much aileron authority during a stall. If you pull your stick gently fully aft, the plane will enter a stall in which you maintain roll control, and you can remain in this condition endlesly and even land that way, I've done a similar manouver in a sailplane, but I don't think a fighter plane flies that way..
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Originally posted by mora
Yep, the stall is the weakest point of AH2 FM. You can't get a plane into a spin, instead it starts to tumble it's way down. Also you have way too much aileron authority during a stall. If you pull your stick gently fully aft, the plane will enter a stall in which you maintain roll control, and you can remain in this condition endlesly and even land that way, I've done a similar manouver in a sailplane, but I don't think a fighter plane flies that way..
Yup, ManeTMP did that the other day to me in his Tempest vs. my F6F. It just didn't look natural, I have a hard time believing planes could actually do this. Reminded me alot of the spin fighting era in AWFR, when you could enter a spin, which killed your speed, swing around 180 degrees and pull right out while accelerating thru your new vector.
Zazen
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Originally posted by MoRphEuS
Any advantage the 38 had is long gone now. It is IMHO one of the biggest hunks of junk in the game now. The 51 was given a healthy dose of steroids and the 38 has had its nuts removed. Ahh well...
Early in beta I was flying 38 a lot, seldom fly it at all now. It just seemed like they changed the FM again somewhere along the line. Maybe perception, maybe reality - might be a "spin-off" of taming the stalling stuff of all the planes. Ponies rule now, I have gone to the dark side.
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Originally posted by Zazen13
Yup, ManeTMP did that the other day to me in his Tempest vs. my F6F. It just didn't look natural, I have a hard time believing planes could actually do this. Reminded me alot of the spin fighting era in AWFR, when you could enter a spin, which killed your speed, swing around 180 degrees and pull right out while accelerating thru your new vector.
Zazen
Yup .. I see it all the time now ... its the lastest "gamey" move.
Many times I have been on someone's 6 (long or short) and they put the plane into that flippy stall as a defensive move. You overshoot very easily when it happens, and soon after the overshoot, they straighten right out.
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Originally posted by Zanth
Early in beta I was flying 38 a lot, seldom fly it at all now. It just seemed like they changed the FM again somewhere along the line. Maybe perception, maybe reality - might be a "spin-off" of taming the stalling stuff of all the planes. Ponies rule now, I have gone to the dark side.
Same here Zanth. Loved the P-38 in earlier Beta.
The flight characteristics between the AH I P-38 and the AH II P-38 are incredibly different than any other AH I to AH II plane flight characteristics.
In most instances, the new FM of AH II has made the plane perform better. The P-51 has been mentioned, but the plane that I have noticed an incredible improvement is the F6-F. It is nice in AH I, but a thing of beauty in AH II.
I am not an expert, but my gut tells me that something is wrong with the P-38.
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I am not an expert, but my gut tells me that something is wrong with the P-38.
Your gut is right :(
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I agree about the F6F, Mathman will be a God now.
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Try this move...get a 190 in a scissors...when approaching stall speed, staighten out and go nose up slightly, start rolling hard.....the plane will roll about 5 times faster than normal lol.
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I haven't flown the P-38 as often in either AH I or AH II nearly as extensively as some of you, so I can't comment on the differences in flight models between the two versions. From my limited flying of the Lightning I have come to the conclusion that the flight model appears to be historically correct. P-38 attributes evident in Aces High are:
high top speed
excellent high-speed climb
tremendous zoom climb capability
zero-convergence firepower
good maneuverability free of torque influence
excellent range and endurance
above average low-level maneuverability
With such a large number of flexible characteristics I don't believe it is accurate to describe the new flight model as being "castrated."
Some of the disappointment with the Lightning's flight model may come from unrealistic expectations. While the P-38L had boosted ailerons and Fowler flaps to enhance maneuverability it was still foolhardy for American pilots to enter low-speed, low-level dogfights with Japanese fighters. Conversely, it seems that this model could out-maneuver Luftwaffe fighters, although there are isolated voices to contest this (Adolf Galland). Whether this was due to the greater level of experience and training of American pilots as compared to the late-war Luftwaffe pilots is a matter of some debate.
The tightest turning American fighter was the FM-2. Using it as a benchmark with a value of 100, as Francis Dean did in America's Hundred Thousand, America's main fighter types of WWII are ranked thusly in turn capability sans flaps:
FM-2 100
P-63 124
P-61 133
F6F-5 137
P-51D 179
P-38L 205
P-47D 206
F4U-1D 212
While the Fowler flap greatly enhanced the P-38L's maneuverability the difference in turning ability that this flap had to compensate for was considerable.
Regards, Shuckins/Leggern
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Shuckins ... you are the only one that has used the word "castrated" in this thread. I think there is something wrong which doesn't imply that it is "castrated".
high top speed
excellent high-speed climb
tremendous zoom climb capability
zero-convergence firepower
good maneuverability free of torque influence
excellent range and endurance
No argument with the above ...
above average low-level maneuverability
This is wherer I have a problem ... currently it has below average low-level maneuverability in my experiences flying it.
Again, once it was introduced to Beta and the roll rate bug was fixed, it was MUCH more stable than it is now.
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Slapshot,
Morph implied that the P-38 had had its nutz removed...which is the same thing.
While flying in AH II I have heard others commenting about the new flight model offering greater maneuverability for the P-38 at low-level.
As I said, I don't fly the Lighting as much as some others do, so I can't offer a definitive judgement...just personal observations from my admittedly limited experience with it.
Regards, Shuckins/Leggern
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Morph implied that the P-38 had had its nutz removed...which is the same thing.
Missed that ... yup that is ... ouch ... castration ... :D
Well I have put in some serious hours in the P-38 within the last 2 tours in AH I and have flown the early version of the P-38 in AH II, and the P-38 at this point in time, just doesn't feel right.
Just my personal experiences.
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It has been nuterd.
In a turn fight it just falls on its face.
I've been in some serious turn fights in AH1 in the 38. Not once did it fail to pull out or keep from stalling out and splattering on the ground as it has in AH2.
Why try and fix something that wasn't broke in AH1?
I give up... I'll just fly the La7s and Niks like everyone else...
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they just might want to implement a new better more real-life FM for your favourite aircraft.
Im sorry to hear new FM was de-balled :/
Im still looking for as accurate behaviour sim there is - not just game-made implications
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here a hint noobs .. You don't need to be at 100% thorttle every second ........ :D
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Well if AHT says so;
FM-2 100
P-63 124
P-61 133
F6F-5 137
P-51D 179
P-38L 205
P-47D 206
F4U-1D 212
... maybe the P-38L wasn't supposed to turn and mash at low speeds like it used to in AH1 in the first place.. who knows? Looks like sustained turns are about as effective as a P-47. Maybe the new FM implies that you shouldn't start a turn fight in the first place with a plane that turns like a P-47..??
*shrugs*
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"Also you have way too much aileron authority during a stall. If you pull your stick gently fully aft, the plane will enter a stall in which you maintain roll control, and you can remain in this condition endlesly and even land that way, I've done a similar manouver in a sailplane, but I don't think a fighter plane flies that way.."
I was in a pony about 7k....Merged with La5 last night, I came in higher diving under him... did a high immelman...I beat him to the top and came over on him....he started to run and then he started to attempt an over the top move..I followed him up closing fast....at 600 started firing...he chops throttle and puts plane in rolling stall move flopping around like a fish..I over shoot of course but when I look back hes still flopping to the earth... I reverse on him looking for the killshot only to find he has recovered and gained enough e already to zoom up to me for a headon shot and 1 pings my pilot....boom Im dead. I was pretty bent about it.
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Exactly jaxxo ... this move will replace the "engine off" move. Extremely gamey and alot of people are taking advantage of it.
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I agree with Slap's and Morph's assessment of the P38 in AH2, I'm very disgusted with it, the thing has more torque than a SpitV now.
I've said alot on the beta reports about it but no luck yet... I'm close to not renewing my account when AH2 goes live. There is other reasons, but seeing my P38 get castrated is the icing on the cake.
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This snap roll manuver was able to be performed in AH1, but with the gunnery model in AH1 it was a death sentence. I used to do it to my wingmates to annoy them in AH1, but for pure comic relief.
Originally posted by jaxxo
he chops throttle and puts plane in rolling stall move flopping around like a fish..I over shoot of course but when I look back hes still flopping to the earth...
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".....icing on the cake."
Well put and just how I feel.
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I'd be curious in seeing the numbers. It's possible the 38L here was really a homoginized 38, with AHII making it more of an L type than homoginized.
My only reason for saying this is over the hill they had the J and the L model. I spent alot of time in both. The L model was NOT a knife fighter, it was more of a speed fighter similar to the 51. You didn't turn fight in it. Higher speed, higher speed before compression became an issue, a faster fighter that wasn't "good" slow, it tended to wallow a bit.
When you wanted to turn fight, you flew a J. The J was an animal turn fighting, wasn't as fast, compression came in at a lower speed. But very dangerous in a turn fight.
Just got the impression that here the 38 was a mixture of the two.
Could be wrong. But if I am ???
IT'S THE FIRST TIME I'VE BEEN WRONG IN MY ENTIRE LIFE !!
Are these guys doing a snap roll ?? I haven't tried one but if the fm handles it, chop throttle at manuvering speed and yank the stick back and add hard rudder and if accurate, you should be able to snap roll it. That would be putting on the brakes big time.
In a Cessna 150 she snaps great, release your control pressure and she comes right out of it.
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Originally posted by pellik
I know gunnery is different. Has anyone figured out all the changes to it in the new system? I could really use some pointers in how to adjest my leading for high angle shots.
-pellik
Many ppl report that the "Gunnery" has not changed. Actually it has. They are confusing "Ballistics" with "Gunnery". Gunnery refers to ones ability to use guns. As in “Gunnery skill”
Supposedly the ballistics haven’t changed. But the Hit Bubble is smaller. A smaller hit bubble = different "Gunnery" ie. You have to aim more accuratly to hit your target.
Gunnery has changed. Better for some. Worse for majority.
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200 yard shots are easy to miss when you have your convergence set to something else. Bullets do not fly in a straight line. They fly in a parabolic path. Once they leave the barrel, they start to drop right away. In order for the bullets to meet at the center of the gunsight at the convergence range, the guns must be pointed up to some degree. The following is a picture (where the ballistics are exagerated to emphasize the point) showing how it is easy to miss at 200 yards when your convergence is set to 400.
(http://webpages.charter.net/mathmanahs/convergence.jpg)
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Originally posted by Mugzeee
Supposedly the ballistics haven’t changed. But the Hit Bubble is smaller. .
I didn't think AH had hit bubbles. I've not found gunnery any more difficult personally.
Mathman nice chart.:)
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Originally posted by thrila
I didn't think AH had hit bubbles. I've not found gunnery any more difficult personally.
Mathman nice chart.:)
Maybe i spoke too soon.. I personally dont have any proof that AH2 has or has not Hit bubbles or if they are smaller or not. Im trusting that several of our more reputable "Aces" that have stated that the "Hit bubble" is smaller, know what they are talking about. Glad to hear you arent having problems with gunnery. But I am convinced that the majority of players are. I asked online the other day if anyone else was having gunnery troubles.. Bout 3 or 4 said no...bout 15 said yes.
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HT, Pyro, and Skuzzy all say that AH never had 'hit bubbles' - neither AH1 nor AH2.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
HT, Pyro, and Skuzzy all say that AH never had 'hit bubbles' - neither AH1 nor AH2.
Thanks for clearing that up.
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Originally posted by Mathman
200 yard shots are easy to miss when you have your convergence set to something else. Bullets do not fly in a straight line. They fly in a parabolic path. Once they leave the barrel, they start to drop right away. In order for the bullets to meet at the center of the gunsight at the convergence range, the guns must be pointed up to some degree. The following is a picture (where the ballistics are exagerated to emphasize the point) showing how it is easy to miss at 200 yards when your convergence is set to 400.
(http://webpages.charter.net/mathmanahs/convergence.jpg)
If my memory serves me today, ballistic drop for a typical BMG .50 round is only about 10 inches at 400 yards, 3 to 4 inches at 200 yards. If they're missing at 400 yards, there's another reason behind it.
My regards,
Widewing
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well I for one find the 38 more nimble than AH1
The AH1 38 feels like it's on 'rails'..... IMHO this is because of half the airflow points from ah1 to ah2
the 38 has been torqueing a little left on takeoff ... but I think this is minor bug ... and hasn't affected my flying of the 38...
It really is more nimble than in ah1 .....
and on gunnery
also remember that '400' market in ah2 starts at proably d500 or so .... and ends around d300
So are you thinking your target is closer than his is when you fire .. or farther away ?
here's another hint,
Stop looking at the icons when shooting
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i didnt like the 38 in AH2 when first flyin it, but love it now. :D took some getting use to, but it still a killer.:D
~S~
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Ive noticed the slow speed stabilty is gone in the new 38 ..especially with 2 notched of flaps ... also it seem like it has also lost lift on the deck, u definetly see it when pullin out of a hammerhead at low alt. Roll is also reduced comparied to ah1 , cept for high speed . is this wrong.... im not sure,was the 38 in ah1 overmodeled and this is the correct data ? My guess is that HT must have hard data confirming the performance of the plane ... just my 2 cents <
> 38maw
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here is a site with test data from lockheed http://home.att.net/~ww2aviation/P-38-3.html
if you scroll down you will see roll , climb . speed , and dive performance data 38