Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: GODO on June 08, 2004, 07:36:14 PM
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which one should win in a dive from 10k starting with 200 mph?
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A8.
should be a no brainer 190 is heavier and also much better in dive.
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A8 hands down.
Easy to test offline if you have a stop watch.
My 3 year old lost mine, so I'm out of action in the testing department for a while.
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Win as in hit the deck first? Or win as in the 190 gets away from the Spit?
The 190 will hit the deck first, whether it gets away from the spit is an entirely different matter... the Spit can cut across the angle to close the cap once the 190 pulls out of its dive, and I'm pretty sure it will retain that dive speed a little better.
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Just HO!(TM) :D
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With the new AH2 I had the impresion that my A8 was no more able to flee from spits in a dive and unable to catch them when they dive, so yesterday Wilbuz and me tested both planes in dives, as well as SpitIX. The tests were performed from 10k, starting at 200 mph for SpitV/190A8 and 250 mph for SpitIX/190A8, all the planes were loading 50% fuel and A8 was armed with only 2x20mm guns.
We started every test flying level at 10k at the previously mentioned speeds, one plane at the six of the other at very close range (about 250-300 yards) simulating a pursuit.
The result was surprising, both, SpitV and SpitIX gained separation in the dive at a very noticeable rate from the beginning to the end of the dive, 190A8 was able to catch them only after leveling at ground level. 190A8 retained the speed better once the dive ended, but gained speed much slower in the dive itself.
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Thats odd. Seems backwards to me.
The 190 is heavier than the Spit and has more horsepower, so I would assume it would accelerate faster in the dive.
The Spit is cleaner, so I would assume it would retain its speed better.
Post it in the AH2 forum and see what they say.
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The heavier plane will sustain more speed as they come out of the dive. The plane with the best acceleration will close / extend in the initial part of the dive. I have had np diving away from spits in an a8.
It should be an easy test, some one time their dives.
Diving from a Spit in game maybe deceiving because the incremental range icons.
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No offense to Mandoble, but I'll wait until someone without an agenda posts test results. Even if the testers felt they were recording times accurately, at a subconcious level they may have been doing subtle things to throw off the test results in ways that matched their perceptions.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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DMF, the tests weren't made with stop watches, they were made by following the other plane.
Wotan, the incremental icons only exist with enemy icons, not friendly. Friendly icons still show every yard.
Judging from RAF and other WW2 test reports, the 190 should outaccelerate the spit in both level flight and, speciually, in dives.
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DMF, you can perform the test yourself with another nonbiased player. BTW, at least my plane has a non-biased co-pilot onboard.
We did not took times, we just started the typical "pursuit" (both planes diving on WEP one after another from an initial level speed) and 190A8 was unable to follow the spits (V and IX) in the dive.
In any case, by your reply, you are accepting that SpitV or SpitIX should be easily outdived by 190A8 starting at the described alt and speeds, and not the opposite, right?
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Originally posted by GODO
DMF, you can perform the test yourself with another nonbiased player. BTW, at least my plane has a non-biased co-pilot onboard.
[/b]
I would not trust myself to perform this test accurately. I would have some stake in the outcome.
In any case, by your reply, you are accepting that SpitV or SpitIX should be easily outdived by 190A8 starting at the described alt and speeds, and not the opposite, right?
Easily outdive? Define "easily" for me.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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The range was increasing continuously at a noticeable rate, in fact, was so noticeable that even a spit-biased one like you would not have any problem trusting in a test permormed by you and another spit entusiast.
In your opinion, should be this way or just the opposite?
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Originally posted by GODO
The range was increasing continuously at a noticeable rate, in fact, was so noticeable that even a spit-biased one like you would not have any problem trusting in a test permormed by you and another spit entusiast.
[/B]
Film? This sounds like typical hyperbole from you.
In your opinion, should be this way or just the opposite?
Just the opposite? Do you mean that the 190A8 should "easily" pull away from the Spit at a "continuous" and "noticeable" rate? It might pull ahead or away, but that doesn't mean it will do so either easily or noticeably.
The results sound odd but, frankly, coming from you I don't really trust them.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Film? This sounds like typical hyperbole from you.
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Wilbus filmed every test, can you provide us with a working film viewer?
Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
coming from you I don't really trust them.
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Who cares, test it by yourself, it is easy enough.
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As I don't have any 'agendas' either way, I made a quick test. Beta 41, 50% fuel, A8 with 2x20mm.
Level acceleration 200-300mph TAS, alt 10000ft:
Spit IX - 32s
Spit V - 36s
Fw190A8 - 40s
Then 0g dive to sealevel. The max. speeds were very close, Spit V about 500mph and Spit IX and Fw about 520mph.
Conclusion: Spit IX dives definitely better due to its acceleration, Spit V is better initially, then Fw starts to catch slightly near sealevel.
The combat trim is off in Fw190A-8. The stick needs to be pushed to keep it in the dive. After the dive it made couple of perfect loops hands off.
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Spitfire has awseome acceleration in those test paramaters...should easily win the dive part of that test, then get caught quickly upon straightening
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IIRC in tests the Britons made in WW2 the Fw190 left Spits behind when accelerating ?
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in AHI at least, the deciding factor in the dive acceleration is the level acceleration at the given initial speed.
for example, a P47 will not out dive anything, not even a spit, unless you get into the 400+mph regime. Only then it starts to pull ahead.
Bozon
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The spit V in the Brit test was run at a lower power setting then the Spit 5 in AH2. Unless you do tests to match those power settings then your results will be skewed.
The spits don't out accelerate the 190As in AH btw. Mando tested SL acceleration himself. The a5 out accelerated both the 5 and 9 at all speeds and the a8 out accelerated both from 200 - 300 mph.
These are only SL tests so someone may want to run more tests at various alts but in my experience in AH I have yet to be "out dove" by a spit while in either the a5 or a8 when we began a dive close to co e.
The only time I have been caught is when the spit was already much faster.
I haven’t done any tests so I am only speaking from game experiences.
In AH1 I always “believed” the 190s accelerated to slow. I “feel” that the Ta152 acceleration is off as well. But it would appear that no one has yet to convince HT.
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The RAF compared a Spit V at 12 lbs boost to an Fw 190 A3 at 1.42 ata.
During the time between the tests being made and the report being written, the RAF increased the authorised boost on the Spit V from 12 lbs to 16 lbs.
Below FTH, that's an extra 200 hp or so for the Spit. The AH II Spit V runs at 16 lbs, iirc.
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New quicktest, accelerations 200-300mph TAS, 50%fuel, alt 200ft:
Spit V - 54s
Spit IX - 52s
Fw190A-8 - 38s
(Almost exactly the same results Mandoble got earlier).
Conclusion: OTD Fw190A-8 accelerates the best, but this cannot be generalised to all altitudes. Categorical statements like "The spits don't out accelerate the 190As in AH" are incorrect.
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Test it again at 5 k, 10 k, 15k. Starting above 17k IIRC the spit 9 should start gaining.
You will see my statement "The spits don't out accelerate the 190As in AH" is accurrate.
FYI
The Spit V in AH
Emerg Power
16lbs @ 3000rpm
Mil Power
9 lbs @ 2850rpm
The A5
Emerg Power
42.5 MP @ 2700rpm
Mil Power
39.5 @ 2400rpm
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I was asking about diving (not level) acceleration of real 190A8 vs real SpitVb starting at lo speed (200 mph) and 10k.
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The 2 are related...
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Originally posted by Batz
The 2 are related...
weight fights against your HPs in level (increasing aoa and drag) and in a climb, just the opposite in a vertical dive. Climb and level acceleration are not proportional to dive acceleration. Look at the P51D, not exactly an excelent climber neither an excelent accelerator at level, but probably the best diver.
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Dive acceleration is another story.
Dive acceleration is usually very close to sustained climb at a given speed or altitude.
Aren't there any AFDU reports out there for comparison?
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BTW, SpitV and 190A8 acceleration from 150mph (substained) to 300mph at 500 feet, and 175 mph to 300 mph at 10k, on WEP and loading 100% fuel.
500 feet
SpitV starting at 150mph TAS substained:
175 mph: 5 secs
200 mph: 10 secs
225 mph: 17 secs
250 mph: 27 secs
275 mph: 40 secs
300 mph: 65 secs
190A8 (2x20mm) starting at 150mph TAS substained:
175 mph: 5 secs
200 mph: 11 secs
225 mph: 18 secs
250 mph: 27 secs
275 mph: 39 secs
300 mph: 56 secs
10000 feet
190A8 (2x20mm) starting at 175mph TAS substained:
200 mph: 7 secs
225 mph: 15 secs
250 mph: 26 secs
275 mph: 38 secs
300 mph: 56 secs
SpitV starting at 175mph TAS substained:
200 mph: 4 secs
225 mph: 11 secs
250 mph: 18 secs
275 mph: 29 secs
300 mph: 43 secs
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perk the spit5 :rolleyes:
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Remember that the Spit V in AH2 is more powerful than the Spit V in AH1.
However, the AFDU trials that I recall reading said that in a dive the 190 pulled away from all Spitfires, even the Mk XIV, although in the case of the XIV it was only for a short while and then the XIV was gaining. the V and IX did not gain.
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Bah! This is an easy one.Whichever one you're in,the opposite will dive faster if he's on your six...trust me.;)
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Rgr that Karnak, the spit 5 here is better, but like you said, even the 14 couldn't catch the 190 A in the initial stages of a dive.
Neither 5 or the 9 (our 5 being more like the tested 9?) could keep up with it in level acceleration unless at high altitudes and in zoom climbs from level flight, and especially dives, the 190 was again superior.
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(http:////www2.freepichosting.com/Images/421515038/0.jp)
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And what more needs to be said?
In AH and AH2 Even a Dora won't be able to do that against a spit 5.
It is insane to say "all is well" in AH.
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SELECTOR, based on the date of that report It was probably a 190A3 vs SpitVb.
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It was..
Ready to call this thread "round 12"?
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=92093
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Actually Wotan, we'll call this round one.
This is for AH2, the other ones were for AH1.
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Wilbuz, we need to finish these tests with D9 vs SpitV.
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Rgr Godo, give me a yell when you see me online...
Wotan, one other thing, the reason we bothered to bring it up again is that AH2 is near release, just thought it might be worth one last try...
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Run the tests with the Spit at 12 lbs boost and see what happens. I'd say if the results of the 8 lb boost Spit V vs the 190A5 at 1.43 ata in AH and the test in real life are within 5% or so of eachother, then the full throttle tests would probably match up pretty well with real life.
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Originally posted by Wilbus
Rgr Godo, give me a yell when you see me online...
Wotan, one other thing, the reason we bothered to bring it up again is that AH2 is near release, just thought it might be worth one last try...
I know wil, just stirring the pot so nothing burns :p
Work on the 152, it needs it more .....
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Originally posted by Urchin
Run the tests with the Spit at 12 lbs boost and see what happens. I'd say if the results of the 8 lb boost Spit V vs the 190A5 at 1.43 ata in AH and the test in real life are within 5% or so of eachother, then the full throttle tests would probably match up pretty well with real life.
even so the a3 was lighter then the a5....
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Yea, i know. That is why I tossed in that 5% margin. It wasn't much heavier than the A4 IIRC. Dunno what the difference in weight was between the A4 and A3.
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Nhaaa, AH2 release next week, no use bothing with the Ta152 aswell.
Like I said, just wanted to give it one last try, round one and round 15.
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Originally posted by Urchin
Thats odd. Seems backwards to me.
The 190 is heavier than the Spit and has more horsepower, so I would assume it would accelerate faster in the dive.
The Spit is cleaner, so I would assume it would retain its speed better.
Post it in the AH2 forum and see what they say.
yes but doesnt the 190 compress faster than the spit?
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Originally posted by Urchin
Yea, i know. That is why I tossed in that 5% margin. It wasn't much heavier than the A4 IIRC. Dunno what the difference in weight was between the A4 and A3.
IIRC the a3 is about 400lbs lighter. You could have a 5% variance in testing the same planes a few diffferent times. 5 % most likely wouldnt be enough.
HoHun I believe has given the 190A5 (the actual rl AC and not the AH version) a "good looking at" so he may beable to clarify the issue some.
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We fly Luft, we are screwed:rolleyes:
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I did have the same kind of experience as Godo the other day in the AH2 arena.. I was in a 190A8 at about 8-9k with 6-7 Spits and a Niki at their base at various alts.. I BnZ'ed 3 of them to death and was trying to climb back up to my perch when a Spit decided to follow me. He got to about "400" on the icon (not really sure how far that is) as I levelled out, and held down the trigger. Fortunately for me, he missed, but I figured I'd be better off going a little faster, so I rolled over into a dive. I made it a fairly steep dive, but all the way from wherever we started till when I levelled out on the deck running, the Spit was "400" yards back. He actually didn't start dropping back until he started climbing a little bit, probably wasted all of his ammo spraying at me.
I won't be trying to out-dive any more spits in a 190A8, thats for damn sure. Good way to get killed.
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Yup Urchin.
Btw, 400 on the icon is 400 YARDS, not feet that some people think.
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Yea, but I'm not sure if the range counter shows 599-400 yards as "400", or 400-201 yards as "400". In the former case I could have been opening the distance very very slowly and I wouldn't have known.
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AHA! So that was what you ment :D
Rgr, I don't know either.
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There is almost no difference in speed between the 190A5 in "Normaljager" configuration and the 190A3 in "Normaljager". I will post the RLM test graphs for the FW-190A3 on Mandoble's website this week.
The FW-190A in any series for a figher varient is a good match up for the Spit 9. Any FW-190 is vastly superior to the Spit V series, so much so that the RAF actually concieved and endorsed "Operation Airthief", an SOE raid to capture a FW-190 and fly it to England. Faber's landing occurred just before "Airthief" was to commence. The few pounds of boost did not make such a big difference and the Spit V series was scrubbed in favour of the Spit 9. At least the performance of the Spit 9 was competative with the FW-190A series.
Here is the FW-190A3 vs Spit IX:
http://www.odyssey.dircon.co.uk/Spitfire9v190.htm
Crumpp
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Today I (190A5) was diving over a P47D40 after a zoom and stall of both planes, the P47 was being also pursued in the zoom by a much lower spitIX and after the hammer, the P47 tried to HO the still climbing spit without scoring a hit, the spit reversed and dived at my six, to my surprise and mostly the P47 pilot surprise, the SpitIX overpassed my 190, and killed the P47 in the dive.
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Originally posted by GODO
Today I (190A5) was diving over a P47D40 after a zoom and stall of both planes, the P47 was being also pursued in the zoom by a much lower spitIX and after the hammer, the P47 tried to HO the still climbing spit without scoring a hit, the spit reversed and dived at my six, to my surprise and mostly the P47 pilot surprise, the SpitIX overpassed my 190, and killed the P47 in the dive.
How much energy did the Spit carry through his reversal? I gather that your 190 and the P-47 had zoomed until you had no choice but to reverse. Correct? If the Spit reversed while still having two or three hundred MPH he might have been in a good position to overtake.
That said, I still think that either the Spit's are accelerating too well in dives, or other aircraft are accelerating too slowly in dives. Most likely the Spit is accelerating too fast.
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Originally posted by Karnak
Correct?
Incorrect, the spit was stalling when the P47 tried to fry it in the dive. P47 and 190 were diving from no less than 500 yards above the spit reverse point. Along the dive I got a maximum separation of 600 yards behind the P47, at the end of the dive it was reduced to 500 yards with a bit of spray&pray, near sea level. The spit kill it firing at 400 yards. Add or substract 100 yards to these numbers due new icon range system.
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How do you know the Spit's energy state? Did it flop over before the P-47 arrived? I am very rarely that certain of another aircraft's energy state.
My "Correct?" was intended about your, and the P-47's, zoom termination.
It would be interesting to see a film of it.
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This thread is going off track.
What matters is that a SPITFIRE should NEVER be able to catch a 190 in a dive provided both A/C start at a similar Energy state. The Spitfire in AH2 can OUTDIVE the 190A. This is wrong and should be fixed. Now I don't know if the 190 dives too slow or the Spit too fast.
If the level speed is wrong then it should be fixed and if factory data is used to determine the flight parameters for any A/C in AH2 then it should be used for all of them if available.
To use allied data when RLM data exist's is like having a Chevy mechanic trying to get maximum performance from a Toyota engine. Then claiming the Chevy mechanic knows more than the Toyota factory about a Toyota engine. It just does not pass the common sense test.
A 190A8 and a Spit IX should be almost equal in all flight parameters. Altitude determines which is the faster plane/better accellerating. The 190 should always hold the cards in rollrate/manuverability except for sustained turn radius. Climb rate is extremely close and the 190 wins diving hands down. Spits in AH2 roll too fast or the 190 doesn't roll fast enough. The same with diving.
Bottom line - Only in Diving and roll rate should the 190A have a commanding lead over the Spit 9. Only in Sustained Turn Radius does the Spit IX hold a commanding lead over the 190.
Crumpp
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Only because it is a Merlin 61 F.Mk IX, otherwise the Spitfire would also have a commanding sustained climb advantage too. Probably zoom climb as well.
And if it we a clipped wing Spit LF.Mk IX (ugly though it be) it would roll nearly as well as the Fw190.
That said, only the Spit XIV should be able to catch a Fw190 in a dive, and then it should be an effort.
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I don't think the clipped wing spits rolled as well as the 190 otherwise the RAF certainly would have used more of them. They didn't have the alerion surface area or pushrod controls that made the 190 roll so well. Clipping the wing also reduced other handling characteristics I believe making the tradeoff not worthwhile.
I think sustained climb would not be commanding but the spit would have the advantage. Zoom climb is another story. I think the 190 would retain the advantage on that one.
Remember the test flight comparision is a 190A3 captured by the RAF without boost and being flown at a reduced Manifold pressure. It not being flown to "edge" of the 190's envelope, either. It is however one of the best comparison flights of the 190 vs other A/C we have available.
The 190A3 being flow in the test was limited to 1.42 ata (boost pressure of the time on C3 injection) and the RAF would use it for only 2 minutes at a time. The 190A5 we have in AH2 should use 1.58 ata boost. The 190A8 had both a 1.58 ata boost and a 1.65 ata boost (GM 1?). I will post the RLM documents on Mandobles website this week.
Both Eric Brown and Alfred Price comment that an experienced German 190 pilot could have gotten more out of the A/C especially in turning ability. The RAF pilots simply were afraid to push the 190 for fear of crashing it. Not only was it the only available example at the time but it's stall was both nasty and without warning. Faber's 190 was just too valuable to risk pushing the machine and losing it.
The 190A8 vs Spit 9 should be one of the most challenging fights in AH for either pilot with raw skill being the deciding factor.
Your right, I'm not even including the Spit 14. It totally outclasses the 190A and until the Dora with MW-50 (1945 version) comes about the Luftwaffe had no equal for it.
Crumpp
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Crump,
I'm not talking about conjecture here. I'm talking about test data.
The Spitfire LF.Mk IX climbed at 4,500fpm.
If you can find the NACA roll chart you'll notice that the clipped wing Spitfire is only a little behind the Fw190.
Of course clipping the wings does reduce the Spit's turn performance, but it will still handily out turn the Fw190.
As to the rods vs. wires, what I understand is that on a new aircraft it makes no difference. As the aircraft becomes war weary the rods keep the tight control response whereas the wires stretch and the controls become sloppy.
BTW, they aren't "push rods", all controls work by pulling.
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I am talking facts here too.
I would be interested in seeing this roll rate data. I've seen several different roll rate charts with wildly varying data.
As for the clipped wing Spits. It helped reduce the rollrate and improved low altitude performance but it was not the answer to the FW-190A. That distinction went to the Griffon powered Spits
http://www.wwiitech.net/main/britain/aircraft/spitfire/
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Obviously therefore, steps had to be taken immediately to counter this new and very dangerous threat. One of the first steps was to clip the wings of the Spitfire V's, thus improving their low-altitude capability enough to be able to rival the Fw-190. This was not however, an adequate upgrade, and it was clear that a new model would be required. This came in the form of the Spitfire Mk IX. The Spitfire IX appeared with all three types of wing; the extended, standard and clipped wing, and also introduced a new armament configuration; a combination of two 20mm Hispano cannon and two .50-inch Browning machine guns. The Mk IX did not solve the problem of the Fw-190, but when combined with new Hawker Typhoon aircraft, did help the situation. The Mk IX was fitted with a higher-powered version of the Merlin, the Merlin 61, rated at 1,660hp. 5,665 Spitfire Mk IX's were produced. The Mk X was powered by a 1,650hp Merlin 77 engine, and the Mk XI was powered by either a 1,760hp Merlin 63, or a Merlin 70 rated at 1,665hp.
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I would like to see the charts on this MkIX. The data I have says the two A/C are pretty close in the initial climb with the Spit IX leaving the 190 behind at high altitude.
Some food for thought on the combat value of the marginal advantage the Spit 9 did have:
Being a lower wingloaded A/C the spit will climb at a slower speed and steeper angle. It will end up above the FW-190 at the end of the climb.
The FW-190 climbs at a faster speed and shallower angle. If the spit follows directly it will be left behind. This was the case in Dogfights between the two.
The Spitfire pilot climbs at his best speed. He is above the 190 but now must close the Horizontal gap so he dives.The 190 pilot simply dives too. The spitfire cannot catch him in a dive and worse case will follow him to the deck were the 190's top speed is greater. End result - 190 retains the advantage in the fight.
This is why Spit pilots didn't fight 190's in the vertical. The 190's roll advantage, zoom climb, and speed leveled the playing field making the deciding factor pilot skill.
You don't see this in AH at all. The Fw-190 is reduced to clumsy easily avoided attacks in the vertical. It does not posses the manuverability advantage of the actual FW-190. FW-190 pilots got in close and fought in the verticle because they had some real manuvering advantages. Try the classic 190 manuver of turning until the Spit begins to gain in the turn, flick out of the turn circle, dive and zoom climb above. The AH2 spitfire 9 will follow you with no difficulty and shoot you down. Test pilots with radio communication anticipating the manuver COULD NOT follow a 190 in the Merlin Spit. Even the Spitfire Mk 14 had great difficultly WITH radio notification following a 190A in this manuver. AH2 is not a correct simulation of the fighting between these great fighters.
Facts are the 190 was MORE manuverable than the Spitfire 9 in flight with the exception of sustained turn radius.
Do not confuse advantages with domination. The Griffon powered spits DOMINATED the 190A. In the Merlin powered Spit IX niether dominated the other in reality. Each had it's advantages and the checks and balances between the two leveled the playing field. It should be one of the most nail biting fights in the game given equal energy states at the merger.
Crumpp
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Sorry karnak but on the Fw190, the aileron rods were 'push-pull' as was part of the elevator control run. Part of the rudder control run was by 'push' rods.
BTW, they aren't "push rods", all controls work by pulling.
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I don't know what kind of combat the Mk X and Mk XI would participate in, for they were both un-armed PR a/c.