Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: BUG_EAF322 on June 08, 2004, 09:06:26 PM
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at highspeed dives its nose tucks up??
weird stall flipspins,
:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :( :( :eek: :eek:
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I use Dive flap while stall badly and recover quickly
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I don't know if it's a feature or a bug, .. er.. Bug.. but in some planes Combat Trim no longer acts like the way it used to.
Combat trim, adjust trims according to your speed, so your plane maintains level flight with military power at that speed.
So, what used to happen is, when a plane dives with CT, the trim keeps trimming your plane down since the speed is going up.
Now, in some planes, the trim trims your elevator downwards(or is that upwards? always confusing...), but only upto a certain point. If you want to keep your plane level at high speeds, you have to manually trim your plane.
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Not only that, using Combat Trim in the P-38 pretty much renders the dive flaps useless as the Combat Trim trims to compensate for the nose up pitch the dive flaps give the P-38.
ack-ack
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I just replied to an email Savage sent me about problems he noticed along with other players with the 38.
I would love to get into them now but its quite late here. I will say this though. The 38 we have in AH2 is nothing compared to the 38 we had in AH1. :(
I really hope that this isn't the final version of the FM for the P38.
Morph.
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Is it that different?
I'm kinda thinking that the FM change applies to all planes, and thus the relative advantage the P-38 holds is still there.
I've fought some P-38s in beta, but frankly, now I can't shake them off the tail no matter what I do, if I've been caught in turns under 300mph be it in 109s(or even Spit9 or N1K2s for that matter).
There's a certain 'threshold' to cross in order to go into slow speed maneuvering in 109s, and you have to stabilize your plane before going under 200 so you can start popping flaps. Except, you have to be flying practically no stick pull at all and then chop throttle so the speed goes down for flap use.
Even a slight pull at that critical 200mph border line, will bring the 109s(and most other planes) to stall - and at this point the P-38s seen to decisively outturn any opponent.
The sensitivity of low-speed flight probably makes it much more difficult to use rudders at low speed, and that's why the slow rolling P-38s seem to have more difficulties since they can't kick rudders to aid roll like they used to.
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I've flown the P38 in the Beta quite alot and I love it, feels quite a bit better then in AH, wouldn't know about combat trim though as I don't use it.
Ask Hajo aswell, it's almost the only thing he flies in the Beta.
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Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
weird stall flipspins
All the planes have them. I haven't been able to spin any plane like they sre supposed to, they always start a wierd tumbling.
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welll right now i prefer the FB p38
no matter who else fly it.
The p38 is porked now.
it seems a lot of wabble flyers trying to talk it good .
nose ups on dive even with ct on cmon its ridiculus.
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Well Bug, like I said, from my experience it performs great, noone could catch me when I flew in it last night. Got 7 kills without any problem.
Nose up when CT is on in dives, it's not the only plane that has it obviously, the 190 A8 is another one. Don't use CT, it's a form of easy flight anyway :)
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Wilbus ... I am not worried about someone catching me. The AH II P-38 still has great speed but dogfighting is another story.
I said this in a previous post ...
The flight performance of the P-38, right after they fixed the roll rate bug, was fantastic. Since then, something was changed and the P-38 is not the dogfighter it is in AH I.
To me, it feels as though the AH II P-38 constantly wants to depart from stable flight. I don't use CT and no matter how I trim it out, when dogfighting (trimming accordingly) the stall horn goes off at the slightest pull on the stick and at speeds that I would not expect it to go off.
Stall fighting is completely out of the question, for me, in AH II. As soon as I get slow and throw out flaps in the fight, it flips so easily that I just might as well fly straight and level and let them shoot me.
I am not an expert on the flight characteristics of the P-38, but the FM difference between the AH I version and the AH II version is more apparent and greater than any of the other planes that I fly and would love HTC to take another look at the P-38 parameters.
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Sorry Slapshot, I expressed my self in a bad way, what I ment with nobody being able to catch me was that nobody was able to get on my six. Not that I could outrun everybody (which I couldn't since there were both LA7's and P51's in the area). Nobody could catch me in the vertical or in turns, my P38, with a slight alt advantage and even without alt advantage, could hold its own while outnumbered. It is specially impressive in the vertical since there is no tourqe IMO and the Hammerheads can be made incredibly fast which no other plane in the intire game can challange.
I just don't agree with you all, it may take some time to get used to I don't know, but it isn't notably porked IMO.
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Glad its working for you Wilbus ... but its not for me ... wish it was.
I am not going to disagree with what you have said. From my own experiences, while dogfighting, I am constantly fighting to keep it from flipping. Torque is not the problem .. the AH I torque and the AH II torque are the same, so nothing lost ... nothing gained there ... hammerheads included.
Maybe its me ... I don't fly it with CT and am always trimming for the conditions at hand. It is my understanding that the flaps were used while fighting at stall speeds to make the plane more stable ... well I find that dropping flaps is certain death for me. It either "flips" me out of the fight, and at that point I am, for all intents and purposes ... dead ... or when low, I auger.
I don't know if you flew the P-38 right after it was introduced in Beta, and right after the roll rate bug was fixed, but the FM difference between that version of the P-38 and the version we have now are like night and day to me.
My experiences with other planes in AH II have shown me that the new FM has improved the plane, while in the case of the P-38, it has proven to make things worse. It was a thing of beauty before in Beta, now its a death trap.
Like I said before, I am no expert, I am a 2nd rate P-38 pilot at best, but my gut tells me that something is not right. I still fly it, but not with the enthusiasm that I have for it in AH I.
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Death trap pretty much sums it up.
I use flaps nearly every fight I get into. Either to get a shot or get into a hard core turn fight with a spit or 51 or really just about any plane I come into contact with.
The first time I realized that the 38 in AH2 wasnt the 38 I've come to know and love was in a turn fight with a spit9. I hit one knotch of flaps... Things just didnt seem right... No big deal though... Then I grabbed for a second knotch... The thing just turned to much. It stalled out went into a spin that took me from 10k all the way down to 2k and nearly planted it in the ground. I was so unhappy with its performance from that point on that I haven't flown it nearly as much as I do in the MA in AH1. It has become the only plane I really enjoy flying. Now with the current state its in its one of those planes thats just a flying coffin.
After that bad stall that took me all the way down to the deck I just logged off and went to fly it off line. I spend about 30 minutes in it trying to do things that I could do very well in AH1 with it. Rolls at extreem slow speeds. Stalls that I could always pull out of or recover from in AH1 I had no chance of regaining control of in AH2.
I really do hope that the 38 is looked into a little more by PYRO or whom ever. I've logged many hours in the 38 in AH1, the few that I've logged in AH2 are enough to tell me its just not the same 38 anymore.
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I'll have to agree with both Slapshot and Morpheus. The P-38 after the roll rate fix was a stone killer. But I'm pretty sure there was a real change either when Pyro said he (changed stall characterstics of all planes) or when the beta patch that allowed settings to transfer from AH I to AH II came out.
I too find myself struggling desperately to keep some speed when maneuvering, hearing the stall buzzer the instant I move the stick, and having those incredibly nasty departures when stalling, even at relatively high speeds and when nose down. It really seems to bleed speed way too fast and accelerate poorly when manuevering. When you get to 200 or so, any stick movement gives you a blaring stall horn. And you never get the speed back anywhere near as fast as you did, even nose down in WEP.
One thing I notice is that it tries to depart sharply to either the left or the right, trying to snap roll into an inverted spin. As you attempt to correct, it instantly goes all the way in the other direction. If you correct for a left roll, it tries to snap hard right. You'll eventually fight this to the ground.
It should simply mush out of a turn, vertical or flat, so long as you don't hold it hard and deep into a stall. The instant it starts refusing to respond, if you release control pressure, it should immediately begin to fly again, and gain speed. That is according to Corky Meyer, Jimmy Mattern, Tony Levier, Ben Kelsey, and John Lowell, along with a host of other P-38 pilots. That is what it was like right after the roll rate was fixed, but it is not now.
That being said, I've been able to adjust to the current version and make it perform half way decent, but not as it should.
Here's a real good example of what I'm complaining about. The other night, I was pursuing a Spitfire 9. As we went over the top, I was diving too steeply, and I pulled up a few degrees to go for the snap shot to help a friendly. The INSTANT I pulled up a few degrees at over 200 knots, it began to try to depart viloently from right to left and back again. Even though I was still nose down, at 200 knots and gaining speed, it absolutely refused to recover. Although I made the snapshot and killed the Spitfire handily, I hit the water ten seconds later.
I do not use Combat Trim in the P-38, and almost never have in the P-38, except at the very start of my time here. The P-38 is a very neutral plane and needs little trim adjusting, according to the above mentioned pilots. And when I stopped using Combat Trim in the P-38, my performance greatly improved in AH I. I do use Combat Trim in some other planes with success.
I've heard one or two people complain about apparent torque effects, but I don't think that is what I'm experiencing at all. And I'm sure no one at HTC would be careless enough to induce torque effects on the P-38 model, they are certainly well aware that the P-38 is a zero net torque plane.
Regarding the nose up habit in a high speed dive, I see that even in AH I, with neutral trim and dive flaps retracted. It pitches up despite pushing the stick forward all the way, even before it buffets. It really should buffet first, and then pitch DOWN, as in Mach Tuck, and should require dive flaps and/or elevator trim up to recover. If I had the kills I set up for in those dives that the pitch up cost me I'd have a whole lot more kills and fewer deaths. I experienced this habit as recently as last night a couple of times.
I appreciate the reply I got from Pyro, and I sincerely hope they take another look at the situation. I'm not going to whine, scream, cry, or demand, I just hope they do revisit the changes made.
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I appreciate the reply I got from Pyro ...
And that was ?
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Originally posted by Wilbus
Sorry Slapshot, I expressed my self in a bad way, what I ment with nobody being able to catch me was that nobody was able to get on my six. Not that I could outrun everybody (which I couldn't since there were both LA7's and P51's in the area). Nobody could catch me in the vertical or in turns, my P38, with a slight alt advantage and even without alt advantage, could hold its own while outnumbered. It is specially impressive in the vertical since there is no tourqe IMO and the Hammerheads can be made incredibly fast which no other plane in the intire game can challange.
I just don't agree with you all, it may take some time to get used to I don't know, but it isn't notably porked IMO.
Maybe I've been hitting the crack pipe way too much these last few weeks but I agree with Wilbuz. Had no troubles against a Spit 9 and a N1K2 in a turn fight.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Wilbus
Well Bug, like I said, from my experience it performs great, noone could catch me when I flew in it last night. Got 7 kills without any problem.
So ...you were the P38 i chased all over God's Creation last night! :rofl
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Maybe I've been hitting the crack pipe way too much these last few weeks but I agree with Wilbuz. Had no troubles against a Spit 9 and a N1K2 in a turn fight.
ack-ack
I have had those encounters too, but attribute the success more to their inabilities as opposed to the abilities of my P-38. Didn't really need to push the envelope in those engagements.
The close fights that I have gotten into, I felt handcuffed in the AH II P-38 compared to the same circumstances while flying the AH I P-38. Captain Virgil Hilts has described it best and his experiences mirror mine. Low-speed - flaps and or rudder means instant flip.
Ack-Ack ... don't know what to tell ya ... it just doesn't feel right, compared to the intial Beta version of P-38.
I am not whining or complaining, I just want to make sure that this is really what its supposed to be like, and if so, I will live with it.
If this is what its supposed to be like, then the AH I P-38 is really wrong and totally UBER.
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The AH2 P-38 has a lot of torque to the left on takeoff. I checked to see if the props were in fact counter rotating and they were.
If this left torque is present at takeoff, its probably present at low speed manuevers and this might account for the flip-flops.
In AH1 reduce the left engine power to simulate the left torque in AH2 and try some low speed manuevers and see if its the same.
I was suprised that the AH2 P-38 does not compress like any previous p-38.
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The flaps might be the reason for the differing perceptions. When I was flying it, I did not drop my flaps at all. Now that I try it with flaps, it does get a bit squirrely. Are you guys who are having problems talking about flaps down conditions?
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Yes Pyro ... where flaps were a saviour before, they are now instant death.
Are you flying it with CT or manual trim ?
Captain Virgil Hilts said ..
I too find myself struggling desperately to keep some speed when maneuvering, hearing the stall buzzer the instant I move the stick, and having those incredibly nasty departures when stalling, even at relatively high speeds and when nose down. It really seems to bleed speed way too fast and accelerate poorly when manuevering. When you get to 200 or so, any stick movement gives you a blaring stall horn. And you never get the speed back anywhere near as fast as you did, even nose down in WEP.
I experience all of this too. Nose down trim, pulling into a turn at 300 mph will set the stall horn off without much of a pull. If I trim nose up, speed drops drastically and it becomes very unstable and very hard to regain speed.
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I fly the p38 only since the begining of this sim.
It's nice people give me tips.
All i can say it is different in worse manner than in AH1.
:rolleyes:
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Well, I took it up with no combat trim enabled, flew fine, dropped down to low level and stall turned it with 1-3 notches of flap between 200 and 140 IAS...didnt stall, kept right on going. I dont see the problem. I encountered no "flops" at all. Compresses at the same speed (@ 500 IAS) in a dive, dive flaps work about the same as in AH1.
Overall my impression is its low speed handling is as good and its overall flight is no worse .
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From the comments here and in posts in the other boards it seems to me that the P-38 may be suffering from torque effects during high-g maneuvering. If so, that is totally inaccurate. The P-38 had no torque during normal flight or while maneuvering except when the pilot deliberately cut power to one of the engines.
Does the AH II P-38 display these same undesireable characteristics when turning both left and right...or does it react differently?
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I found no torque at all. Not at takeoff and not in flight either. You guys have your joysticks calibrated right?
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Originally posted by SlapShot
I have had those encounters too, but attribute the success more to their inabilities as opposed to the abilities of my P-38. Didn't really need to push the envelope in those engagements.
The close fights that I have gotten into, I felt handcuffed in the AH II P-38 compared to the same circumstances while flying the AH I P-38. Captain Virgil Hilts has described it best and his experiences mirror mine. Low-speed - flaps and or rudder means instant flip.
Ack-Ack ... don't know what to tell ya ... it just doesn't feel right, compared to the intial Beta version of P-38.
I am not whining or complaining, I just want to make sure that this is really what its supposed to be like, and if so, I will live with it.
If this is what its supposed to be like, then the AH I P-38 is really wrong and totally UBER.
You may be right. My flying time in AH2 has been rather limited with my new work schedule so I haven't really been able to fly that much since the last two updates. Got the day off tomorrow and Friday and plan to spend all day in AH2 to put the beast through its paces.
ack-ack
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Yeah, whoa. I was just going to post about how I thought it still was pretty good, but after updating to the latest beta (I still had 34 or something), it's really weird.
It's pretty stable with no flaps, but drop flaps and try to ride the stall and you feel like you're riding a bull in a rodeo.
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All I can say, is I hope they have objective data to model planes after and don't go the EQ rout of modeling planes (characters?) to players' likes and dislikes.
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This is the first plane whine in 4 years i made btw.
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I get what seems to me to be torque effect at low speeds. P-38 being what I fly mostly now, it seems to be less forgiving now.
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got 5 on sortie and 7 the next yesterday....
don't know if it is my ability or the other pilots inabilities...
I do find it easier to score hits than with the 109s, all them guns in the nose making the difference??
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Posted this on the General Discussions equivalent of this thread but..
..according to the guys, Francis Dean's AHT compares the sustained turn characteristics of US fighters in this order, with the smaller number indicating a better turner;
FM-2 100
P-63 124
P-61 133
F6F-5 137
P-51D 179
P-38L 205
P-47D 206
F4U-1D 212
If AHT can be considered a reliable source, looks like sustained turns are about as effective as a P-47D with a P-38L.
Maybe the new FM implies that you shouldn't start a turn fight in the first place with a plane that turns like a P-47. It could be that the AH1 P-38L was actually overmodelled than it is supposed to be at low speed scissors/turn fighting.
In AH2, it is still one of the easiest planes to smoothly transcend into low speeds by use of flaps and rudder. In fact, all of the US planes with effective flap use, is at an advantage when entering into that speed regime, compared to other planes which has to drop speed under 200 and then start deploying flaps.
Maybe it's just after the low-speed status is hit, the P-38 isn't as easy as it used to be in handling? It could be only a perceptual disadvantage which in the case of other planes, suffers even more harshly than the P-38. I know the 109 does handle more bitc*y whenever I have to get it to deplot flaps..
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I know there guys have who have "accurate" sources that tells it climbs and turns better than the p51.
and so way better than a p47.
i had a 7 kill sorty yesterday but that says nothin.
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Well if the logic's so laid out, I'm sure HTC will look into it and change it to a better way.
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I think AH1 was uber whereas Ah2 is closer to real, planes should fall out of the sky when lift is removed from its wings..
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Posted this on the General Discussions equivalent of this thread but..
..according to the guys, Francis Dean's AHT compares the sustained turn characteristics of US fighters in this order, with the smaller number indicating a better turner;
FM-2 100
P-63 124
P-61 133
F6F-5 137
P-51D 179
P-38L 205
P-47D 206
F4U-1D 212
If AHT can be considered a reliable source, looks like sustained turns are about as effective as a P-47D with a P-38L.
Maybe the new FM implies that you shouldn't start a turn fight in the first place with a plane that turns like a P-47. It could be that the AH1 P-38L was actually overmodelled than it is supposed to be at low speed scissors/turn fighting.
In AH2, it is still one of the easiest planes to smoothly transcend into low speeds by use of flaps and rudder. In fact, all of the US planes with effective flap use, is at an advantage when entering into that speed regime, compared to other planes which has to drop speed under 200 and then start deploying flaps.
Maybe it's just after the low-speed status is hit, the P-38 isn't as easy as it used to be in handling? It could be only a perceptual disadvantage which in the case of other planes, suffers even more harshly than the P-38. I know the 109 does handle more bitc*y whenever I have to get it to deplot flaps..
Nice numbers and stats but they don't tell us anything about the dogfighting or stall fighting capabilities of the P-38 ... just how well they can sustain a constant turn.
Thats whats wrong with the P-38. I know damn well that I cannot sustain a "turn-fight" with alot of those planes, and I don't. I usually take them into the vertical and force them to stall fight. That is where I beat them.
HT was in the arena yesterday flying the P-38 and he said that they were checking it out. I hope they find something. If they don't, then I will live with it.
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Although I haven't flown it ALOT in AH2, I am with Wilbus and Ack-Ack, I do find that if I am in a nose down turn with more than 1 notch of flaps out it turns/spins too easily but after flying for nearly a week in AH2 only, I took a trip back to AH1 and thought I had went back in time to the AW RR arena. I am pleased with most all planes including the 38. We are on new ground here and I welcome it, AH2 is what AH1 should have been as for being close to the Full Realism of flight aspect.
The guys that have flown the 38 alot will come around and will able to knife fight and stuff as they did before. It is just a new part to the learning curve.
1 thing Zazen pointed out though, is I have noticed the spin fighter syndrom already and this bites! ummm.....it bites them in the 6 if they try it!!! yeah that's what I meant.......
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Not only that, using Combat Trim in the P-38 pretty much renders the dive flaps useless as the Combat Trim trims to compensate for the nose up pitch the dive flaps give the P-38.
Hiya akak
I've flown the P38 a bit - often as jabo - but not enough to get good in it or anything. On those jabo runs preparing to bomb or rocket strafe a VH, I would always select dive flaps, but found they made little difference. So when I read your post this morning, I tried an offline test. I took off in a P38, and levelled out - probably at about 5K. The IAS and TAS were each a little either side of 350mph. Combat trim was OFF and I manually trimmed for level flight. Then, I hit Shift+C to select dive flaps. The result? Nothing. The pitch/attitude did not change one iota, and neither did the speed. Can you explain please?
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Nice numbers and stats but they don't tell us anything about the dogfighting or stall fighting capabilities of the P-38 ... just how well they can sustain a constant turn.
True, but it does give a place to start in thinking. Obviously from what the AHT points out, the P-38L definately doesn't seem to be TnB material, or even a material that would risk close-quarters scissoring or etc. easily.
Thats whats wrong with the P-38. I know damn well that I cannot sustain a "turn-fight" with alot of those planes, and I don't. I usually take them into the vertical and force them to stall fight. That is where I beat them.
That's what I thought, too. Except in the beta, everyone usually seems to be complaining on channel one, about that they can't take out a La-7 or a Yak-9 or etc etc. like they used to in AH1. Well, a lot of things are different than it used to be for a lot of other planes, too.
At any rate if HTC is looking into it, then it's a good sign. Surely they'll make it better if its indeed porked.
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I've flown the P38 a bit - often as jabo - but not enough to get good in it or anything. On those jabo runs preparing to bomb or rocket strafe a VH, I would always select dive flaps, but found they made little difference. So when I read your post this morning, I tried an offline test. I took off in a P38, and levelled out - probably at about 5K. The IAS and TAS were each a little either side of 350mph. Combat trim was OFF and I manually trimmed for level flight. Then, I hit Shift+C to select dive flaps. The result? Nothing. The pitch/attitude did not change one iota, and neither did the speed. Can you explain please?
I've flown the 38 a long time, and as far as I know the dive flaps have never affected the pitch of the aircraft. They simply serve to extend the speed before you lock up in compression by 10-20 mph.
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Originally posted by beet1e
Hiya akak
I've flown the P38 a bit - often as jabo - but not enough to get good in it or anything. On those jabo runs preparing to bomb or rocket strafe a VH, I would always select dive flaps, but found they made little difference. So when I read your post this morning, I tried an offline test. I took off in a P38, and levelled out - probably at about 5K. The IAS and TAS were each a little either side of 350mph. Combat trim was OFF and I manually trimmed for level flight. Then, I hit Shift+C to select dive flaps. The result? Nothing. The pitch/attitude did not change one iota, and neither did the speed. Can you explain please?
trim your plane to approximate neutral, don't use the auto-level do it for you. Keep your plane trimmed in that position and start your dive with the dive flaps already engaged. Once you start going past the 350mph mark the nose will want to start pitching up. YMMV.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Once you start going past the 350mph mark the nose will want to start pitching up. YMMV.
Pardon my ignorance, but isn't that what its supposed to do? Obviously, I am not a 38 disciple, but it was my understanding that the dive flaps were there to assist with the pullout. Probably misunderstanding on my part.
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You're dead on Math. The dive brakes were added to combat tuck-under caused by compressibility. Once engaged the nose of the P-38 would begin to rise.
Regards, Shuckins/Leggern
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Originally posted by Mathman
Pardon my ignorance, but isn't that what its supposed to do? Obviously, I am not a 38 disciple, but it was my understanding that the dive flaps were there to assist with the pullout. Probably misunderstanding on my part.
It's exactly what it's supposed to do and was just trying to explain how to get them to work properly for those that say they can't get the dive flaps to do anything. I've noticed that a lot that say the dive flaps don't work in the P-38 have either been using combat trim or don't have the P-38 trimmed properly.
ack-ack
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im not sure about all this talk about 38 not sustaining a turn fight. so far ive turned and won with nikis and spits in AH2, and ponies while im at it. ive lost a couple, but won more often than not. just gotta use those flaps. im having more fun turning it low than BnZ in it now. better kill/death ratio too( of course this may be do to everyones poor marksmanship do to change). great fun.
and the new patch (42) has the 38 (and A8) fixed. :D Great job HT.
~S~
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Originally posted by killnu
im not sure about all this talk about 38 not sustaining a turn fight. so far ive turned and won with nikis and spits in AH2, and ponies while im at it. ive lost a couple, but won more often than not. just gotta use those flaps. im having more fun turning it low than BnZ in it now. better kill/death ratio too( of course this may be do to everyones poor marksmanship do to change). great fun.
and the new patch (42) has the 38 (and A8) fixed. :D Great job HT.
~S~
I noticed it last night when I was in AH2 and got into some stall fights with a few spits and N1K2s but it wasn't as bad as people made it out to sound. As soon as I noticed the plane wanting to roll in a certain direction like was described, it was easy to keep it from rolling in that direction with a little bit of extra rudder input.
One thing I did notice is that when you start your roll for take off the plane wants to veer to the right and you need to use a lot of opposite rudder to keep it going straight down the runway.
ack-ack
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Veering is caused by wind.
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And we where right its fixed thanx HTC
See math there is some thruth in a whine.
I'm flying the pig 4 years for gawd sakes.
:)
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Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
And we where right its fixed thanx HTC
See math there is some thruth in a whine.
I'm flying the pig 4 years for gawd sakes.
:)
Where did I say you were whining?
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i whined i said i did it whine myself
:D
u better save this post coz it doesn't happen many.