Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Sp4de on June 08, 2004, 11:10:10 PM
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I think that Ah2 should have a P-61. Its been one of my favorite planes for a long time. And i would enjoy flying it. Anyone else have some thoughts on this topic?
http://www.aviation-art.net/lady%20dark.jpg (http://www.aviation-art.net/lady%20dark.jpg)
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i think it would be an awsome plane to fly but i dont think that the MA would realy have a need for it. There are other planes that do the job.
i would however like to see it there if htc would bring it .. why not?;)
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Yeah.. i guess so. Everyone wants the B-29 and other types of planes. I just think the P-61 would be cool to see. I have never seen a P-61 in a game...
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Why cant we just get all the planes of WW2:confused:
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P-61 would pretty much be useless in the MA as airborne radar isn't in the game. As a daylight ground attack plane, there are other planes that will perform that job just as well that are already in the plane set.
It will also be a sitting duck to fighters as it's not all that manueverable and IIRC, most of the guns on the P-61 were locked in place so there wasn't all that much defensive fire power that other light bombers/attack planes had.
ack-ack
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Right, it's ability to be a night-fighter with radar sneaking up on Japanese Betty's is pretty much precluded in a game where there is no night and everyone has radar (but what if the P-61 retained its shipboard radar even if HQ was down and still patrolled for those bomber formations ? hmmmmm.......).
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Mosquito NF.Mk XIX or NF.30 would be easier to do, have better performance and still have the onboard radar if HTC wanted to do something with it.
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Originally posted by Karnak
Mosquito NF.Mk XIX or NF.30 would be easier to do, have better performance and still have the onboard radar if HTC wanted to do something with it.
same with the night version of the P-38, it performed better than the P-61 just without all the extra fire power.
ack-ack
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A20 does fine P61 would do better - one word Cannons.. All AH planes have in plane radar. MA is a silly fantasy world anyway -61 is a cool plane and hell some might sign up just to fly it.
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"P-61 would pretty much be useless in the MA as airborne radar isn't in the game."
lol. you're kidding right? Every plane in the MA has inflight AWACS radar installed. That with the standard issue ICONS would pretty much relegate the P-61 to being a big, fat target.
I'd love to see a P-61 added. But not out of it's real life element - use of the night, stealth and radar to stalk prey that did not have those advantages.
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Add 100 mph to top speed, 20,000 feet to service ceiling, and 4 more guns (20mm cannons) to the a20 and you have a P-61 "target". Also carries 2,000 more pounds of bombs, but sounds like a hunter to me.
(source for all data: USAF Museum)
A20-G SPECIFICATIONS
Span: 61 ft. 4 in.
Length: 48 ft. 0 in.
Height: 17 ft. 7 in.
Weight: 26,580 lbs. gross weight
Armament: 4 fixed, forward firing .50-cal. machine guns in the nose, two fixed .50-cal. machine guns in the lower forward fuselage, two .50-cal. machine guns in a dorsal turret, and one .50-cal. machine gun in a ventral position (don't forget superfly!!) plus provisions for 4,000 lbs of bombs (2,000 lbs. internal & 2,000 lbs. external)
Engines: Two Wright R-2600-23 "Cyclone" supercharged radials of 1,600 hp. ea.
PERFORMANCE
Maximum speed: 317 mph.
Cruising speed: 230 mph
Combat Range: 1025 miles
Maximum Range: 2100 miles
Service Ceiling: 25,000 ft.
_____________________________ _______________________
P-61 SPECIFICATIONS
Span: 66 ft.
Length: 49 ft. 7 in.
Height: 14 ft. 8 in.
Weight: 35,855 lbs. loaded
Armament: Four .50-cal. machine guns in upper turret and four 20mm cannons in belly; 6,400 lbs. of bombs
Engines: Two Pratt & Whitney R-2800s of 2,100 hp. ea.
Cost: $170,000
Serial number: 43-8353
Displayed as: 42-39368 (P-61B)
PERFORMANCE
Maximum speed: 425 mph
Cruising speed: 275 mph
Range: 1,200 miles
Service Ceiling: 46,200 ft.
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I assume a big part of radar cons for aircraft in game is a presupposed ability for HQ to "vector" you toward enemy cons. What I was suggesting is that the P-61 keeps its radar ability for the circle it is flying in (equivalent maybe to base radar circle size) even if HQ is bombed and radar is down (grin).
Those 20mm's and ability to stay aloft much longer than Mossy or P-38 would probably tilt in the P-61's favor for those long, bomber formation intercept missions...
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OH GREAT...
Thanks a lot zanth... now i am salivating...
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We need more Japanese, Soviet, and Italian planes before any late war US stuff. Heck, we need the early P-38's and the P-39 variants before the P-61.
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"we need the early .... P-39 variants..."
!!!
lol. I'm going to email that to Deadduck ;)
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Originally posted by Grits
We need more Japanese, Soviet, and Italian planes before any late war US stuff. Heck, we need the early P-38's and the P-39 variants before the P-61.
We may "need" more hangar queens - but it's nice to get something in the "want" column every now and then too :)
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Originally posted by Grits
We need more Japanese, Soviet, and Italian planes before any late war US stuff. Heck, we need the early P-38's and the P-39 variants before the P-61.
P-38F or P-38J would be nice :D
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Northrop P-61 Black Widow
P-61A, B, and C and F-15 (RF-61C) Reporter
Origin: Northrop Aircraft Inc. Hawthorne, California.
Type: (P-61) three-seat night fighter; (F-15) two-seat stratgic reconnaissance.
Engines: Two Pratt & Whitney R-2800 Double Wasp 18-cylinder two-row radials; (P-61A) 2,000hp R-2800-10; (B) 2,000hp R-2800-65; (C and F-15) 2,800hp (wet rating) R-2800-73.
Dimensions: Span 66ft (20-12m); length (A) 48ft 11in (14-92cm); (B, C) 49ft 7in (15-1m); (F-15) 50ft 3in (15-3m); height (typical) 14ft 8in (4-49m)
Weights: Empty (typical P-61) 24,000lb (10,866kg); (F-15) 22,000lb (9979kg); maximum loaded (A) 32,400lb (14,696kg); (B) 38,000lb (17,237kg); (C) 40,300lb (18,280kg); (F-15, clean) 28,000lb (12,700kg).
Performance: maximum speed (A, B) 366mph (590km/h); (C) 230mph (692km/h); (F-15) 440mph (708km/h); initial climb (A, B) 2,200ft (670m)/min; (C, F-15) 3,00ft (914m)/min; service ceiling (A, B) 33,000ft (10,060m); (C, F-15) 41,000ft (12,500m); range with maximum fuel (A) 500 miles; (B, C) 2,800 miles (4500km); (F-15) 4,000 miles (6440km).
Armament: Four Fixed 20mm M-2 cannon in belly, firing ahead (plus, in first 37 A, last 250 B and all C) electric dorsal turret with four 0-5in remotley controlled from or rear sight station and fired by pilot; (B and C) underwing racks for 6,400lb load; (F-15A) no armament.
History: First flight (XP-61) 21 May 1942; service delivery (A) May 1944; first flight (F-15A 1946.
User: USA (AFF)
Development: The first aircraft ever order to be designed explicitly as a night fighter, the XP-61 prototypes were ordered in January 1941 on the basis of combat reports from the early radar-equipped fighters of the RAF. A very big aircraft, the P-61 had the new SCR-720 AI radar in the nose, the armament being mounted well back above and below the rather lumpy nacelle housing pilot, radar operator and gunner with front and rear sighting stations. The broad wing had almost full-span double-slotted flaps, very small ailerons and lateral-control spoilers in an arrangement years ahead of its time. Black-painted (hence the name), the P-61A entered service with the 18th Fighter Group in the South Pacifice and soon gained successes there and in Europe. Buffet from the turret led to this soon being deleted, but the B and C had pylons for the very heavy load of four 250 gal tanks or 6,400 (2900kg) bombs. Total production was 941, followed by 35 slim photo-reconnaissance versions.
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Zanth,
The WWII P-61 topped out at 366mph.
425mph is BS for a WWII P-61 so don't base your hopes on that.
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We use your "Hangar Queens" in the CT all the time. My point was, why add a plane that wont get used in either the MA or the CT? At least those early war planes will get used in the CT which is more than you can say for the P-61.
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Originally posted by Grits
We use your "Hangar Queens" in the CT all the time. My point was, why add a plane that wont get used in either the MA or the CT? At least those early war planes will get used in the CT which is more than you can say for the P-61.
curious as to why you would think it wouldnt get used
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
curious as to why you would think it wouldnt get used
I think you could answer that yourself by telling us what it would get used for?
It was a purpose built night fighter that was rarely used othewise was it not? We never get much past dusk/dawn here and have all the radar info you'd want in any of the planes so where does the night fighter fit in?
Don't get me wrong I think its a neato lookin plane but I just don't see the point of it. Something more along the lines of a Ki-43 or a P-39 would get a lot more use I'd think. And not that they'd prolly be used a lot at that outside of events or the CT!
Drano
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
curious as to why you would think it wouldnt get used
Seldom ever get to fly the F4U...then when we do, its always ganged by the Georgettes!
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P-61 is damn fast I want it........ it cool looking too
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The P-61 of WWII had a top speed of around 360 mph. Nothing eye-popping there.
What it DID have was exceptional turning capability. With full flaps it could outturn almost every American fighter...the only exceptions being the FM-2 and the P-63. It's turning ability was almost identical to that of the F6F-5...in fact it was slightly better.
So there would be some use for it in the ma.
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Originally posted by Stratocaster
P-61 is damn fast I want it........ it cool looking too
366mph is damn fast?
That's news to me.
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Originally posted by Shuckins
The P-61 of WWII had a top speed of around 360 mph. Nothing eye-popping there.
What it DID have was exceptional turning capability. With full flaps it could outturn almost every American fighter...the only exceptions being the FM-2 and the P-63. It's turning ability was almost identical to that of the F6F-5...in fact it was slightly better.
So there would be some use for it in the ma.
So what do you do when engaging a plane with exceptional turning ability especially relative the plane you're flying? Turn with it? Of course not. Turn rate isn't everything.
If this thing only goes about 360 what I'm seeing is a bigger, slower P-38 that because of its massive weight and radial engines prolly sucks in the verticle bigtime and that would be exactly what I'd exploit when engaging it every time. The thing's neat lookin but hardly what I'd call "sleek". Hardly the definition of E retention.
Face it. This thing was designed to sneak up behind another plane flying in a straight line in the dark and blast it to smithereens with massive firepower. Think that's gonna happen a lot in the MA in broad daylight with full dar on? More than like maybe once? Heck I get about one AFK kill a month in the MA without the P-61!
Just trying to be the voice of reason. Same deal with the PBY. Why? Just a big pretty blue helpless target there.
Drano
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What?? another American plane for AH!
............
Seriously I hope to see all planes added eveunatinaly, I just would put several otthers before a P61 is all.
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heh.. didnt think I would start this big argument...:lol
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We need to fill out the Axis planes and add some more bombers but some of us like to dogfight with A20s even in the MA and the P61 would be even better for us.
Course, I had a model of one as a kid and always loved that plane.:aok
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Originally posted by Easyscor
We need to fill out the Axis planes and add some more bombers but some of us like to dogfight with A20s even in the MA and the P61 would be even better for us.
Try the Mossie and 110G-2.
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was looking at the f-15 FM
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Originally posted by Drano
I think you could answer that yourself by telling us what it would get used for?
It was a purpose built night fighter that was rarely used othewise was it not? We never get much past dusk/dawn here and have all the radar info you'd want in any of the planes so where does the night fighter fit in?
Don't get me wrong I think its a neato lookin plane but I just don't see the point of it. Something more along the lines of a Ki-43 or a P-39 would get a lot more use I'd think. And not that they'd prolly be used a lot at that outside of events or the CT!
Drano
I see it used in an A20 like role only with the ability to fight better.
Much like the Vader did in AW.
I seem to remember reading someplace where it did quite a few of these things and while it was primaraly designed as a night fighter it wasnt only used at night. Or as only a fighter.
I'll haveta look for the link and put it up later
LOL what a plane was designed for and how it was used in Real life has very little to do with what it is used for here.
LOL Im still waiting to see the after action reports of real life C47's doing loops with troops on board to get away from enemy fighters and B-17' and lancasters on treetop level and dive bombing runs LOL
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"was looking at the f-15 FM"
The recon plane.
AHA!! Just what AH needs in an MA environment where every plane has built in AWACS, bases blink indicating attack and the omnipresent icons telegraph every planes position to all for miles around!
;)
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YES!
Bring a -61B (from the end of the production run, with the turret reinstalled) to AH!.
Where the hell is Ripsnort?!? This bird wouldn't be a hanger queen, there are several people who would fly her. And she could deceptively well, would be great for catching the noobs unawares. And drano on the roookies would try to follow you up if her vertical performance is that dismal.. I damn sure wouldn't.
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I would fly her.
I would make sweet, sweet love to her.
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Lots of planes should come to AH before P-61
There are lack of eary war planes:
- I-16
- Yak-1
- Pe-2
- Do-17
- He-111
- Bristol Blenheim
Also some late war PTO planes needed like Ki-84
So......... lets fill historical holes in setups before..........
and then B-29, P-61 etc ;)
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Originally posted by HavocTM
I would fly her.
I would make sweet, sweet love to her.
:rofl :aok
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"NASM's Black Widow is a P-61C-1-NO, U. S. Army Air Forces serial number 43-8330. Northrop delivered it to the Army on July 28, 1945. "
"The P-61 Black Widow was the first United States aircraft designed from the start to find and destroy other aircraft at night and in bad weather. It served in combat for only the final year of World War II but flew in the European, Mediterranean, Pacific, and China-Burma-India theaters. Black Widow crews destroyed 127 enemy aircraft and 18 robot V-1 buzz bombs ."
"Northrop test pilot Vance Breeze flew the aircraft on May 26, 1942. Although the Black Widow was nearly as large as a medium bomber, it was a true fighter. The only prohibited flight maneuvers were outside loops, sustained inverted flight, and deliberate spins.
"Combat operations began just after D-Day (June 6) and the Black Widows quickly departed from their original role as defensive interceptors and became aggressors. They flew deep into German airspace, bombing and strafing trains and road traffic and making travel difficult for the enemy by day and at night. "
source: National Air and Space Museum, Smithsonian Institution
http://www.nasm.si.edu/research/aero/aircraft/northrop_p61.htm
Deliveries of the initial production series aircraft, the P-61A, began in October 1943, and these became operative the following year. The were used in both the Europe and Pacific theaters.
Beginning in August 1944, the first of the second version, the P-61B (450 built) was delivered. In this B version the aircraft’s already powerful armament was increased with the installation of wing supports capable of carrying four 1,602 lb bombs, or supplementary fuel tanks.
The last version, the P-61C, strengthened above all in engine power with the Pratt & Whitney R-2800-73’s which were supercharged and rated at 2,839 hp. Only 41 of the this version were built, out of an order for 517.
source: http://www.qsl.net/n3yqh/WWII/p61.htm
Specifications for P-61B:
Type: 3 seat night fighter
Powerplant: two 2,000hp Pratt and Whitney R-2800 Double Waso radials
Performance: Max speed 366mph; 20,000ft in 6.8 minutes; range 1,350miles.
Armament: Four 20mm cannon and four .50-calibre machine guns
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Originally posted by Shuckins
The P-61 of WWII had a top speed of around 360 mph. Nothing eye-popping there.
What it DID have was exceptional turning capability. With full flaps it could outturn almost every American fighter...the only exceptions being the FM-2 and the P-63. It's turning ability was almost identical to that of the F6F-5...in fact it was slightly better.
So there would be some use for it in the ma.
The P-38M was faster and more manueverable than the P-61 and gave the USAAC a night fighter that could reach 406mph at 15,000ft compared to the 369mph the P-61 was able to reach at 20,000ft. With the addition to the second pilot and radar in the nose, the P-38M suffered very, very little in performance penalties over the P-38L.
So in other words...P-38 pwns the P-61 :c)
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
So in other words...P-38 pwns the P-61 :c)
ack-ack
Yea but we already have 1 p38.
we dont have any P61's:D
I agree we could use some other varients of existing planes.
But I'd also like to see different planes intoduced into the game as well rather then just different varients of current ones
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Originally posted by artik
Lots of planes should come to AH before P-61
There are lack of eary war planes:
- I-16
- Yak-1
- Pe-2
- Do-17
- He-111
- Bristol Blenheim
Also some late war PTO planes needed like Ki-84
So......... lets fill historical holes in setups before..........
and then B-29, P-61 etc ;) [/B]
What we need the B29 for? 90% of high alt bombers cant hit what they drop on now. You really think dropping more bombs will make a difference? LOL
Note I said "90%" which means there are some that can