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Help and Support Forums => Aces High Bug Reports => Topic started by: FBScud on June 09, 2004, 05:30:04 AM

Title: Rudder controls while taxiing/takeoff
Post by: FBScud on June 09, 2004, 05:30:04 AM
I have CH Pro USB rudder pedals, stick and throttle.  On take off, any rudder correction at all induces pretty wild swings so that I now have to use auto takeoff.  I've set the dead bands and dampening on the toe brakes fairly high so I'm not mistakenly applying the brakes.  I've recalibrated in windows and AHII.  In flight all seems ok which is why I suspected the toe brakes.  Landing does not seem so bad, but I've had to lay off the rudder a lot.

Is this a bug or do I have a problem here?
Title: Rudder controls while taxiing/takeoff
Post by: FOGOLD on June 09, 2004, 06:57:55 AM
I disabled toe brakes on my CH Rudders for this very reason. Just use spacebar for braking on landing.
Title: Rudder controls while taxiing/takeoff
Post by: guttboy on June 09, 2004, 07:37:47 AM
Hmmmm....

Well now someone posted this....

I too see a huge difference in the rudder inputs for takeoff.  Even if I seem to get it "right" the plane can swing wildly left and right...doing the old "sidewinder" strut across the field.

Using MS FF2 joystick...NO pedals.

Perhaps its meant to be this way???

Regards
Title: Rudder controls while taxiing/takeoff
Post by: Batz on June 09, 2004, 07:57:33 AM
adjust your yaw sliders until you find the fitting that best fit.

I have the same set up with sliders @ max and have np on take off / landings.

There is a difference between AH1 and AH2 but I have no real issues except at in low speed fights. I need to take it easy on rudder or else I end up inverted.

I don't what the toe brakes have to do with it mine work just like AH 1.
Title: Rudder controls while taxiing/takeoff
Post by: Paxil on June 09, 2004, 08:12:35 AM
Ditto for me... with same pro usb peddals.
Title: Re: Rudder controls while taxiing/takeoff
Post by: Easyscor on June 09, 2004, 08:20:49 AM
Quote
Originally posted by FBScud
I have CH Pro USB rudder pedals, stick and throttle.  On take off...
Same pedals.  Mine are sitting under the bed gathering dust because the chips are fried.  In WindowsXP, turn on the digital readout.  If it's stable within a point or two you're ok but if it jumps madly, your pedals are toast.  The brakes went first, then the rudder.

Those pedals have a 3 year warrenty so you can send them back to the factory for repairs. I hope you saved the box, they told me 6-8 weeks.
Title: Rudder controls while taxiing/takeoff
Post by: Rolex on June 09, 2004, 09:49:28 AM
Hitech has said that he did add some tailwheel slop in AH2.

I may not be the best in the world, but I'm far from being the worst at take offs and landings. I have never crashed an undamaged plane on landing or take-off in AH1 since day one, but manual take-off is almost impossible for me in AH2 in some aircraft. Forget about smoothly rolling in power as rudder authority is obtained... I can't even get up to a normal taxiing speed because of the wild swings even after trying a variety of settings.

I have a full CH USB setup also.
Title: Rudder controls while taxiing/takeoff
Post by: FBScud on June 09, 2004, 12:24:22 PM
Since I don't have any problems in AHI, I assume my controls are fine.  Also, since the rudder works just fine in the air, I assume my calibration is ok.  Haven't disabled the toe brakes yet...I'll do that tonight, but I thought deadband/damping would address that issue.
Title: Rudder controls while taxiing/takeoff
Post by: dracon on June 09, 2004, 02:06:03 PM
CH Pro Peds here...No problems.  Toe Brakes assigned.  Take a 3-4" Binder and put under the pedals for a more realistic pedal attitude and less chance of tapping the brakes!
GL
Title: Rudder controls while taxiing/takeoff
Post by: detch01 on June 09, 2004, 02:24:39 PM
plant the tail wheel (stick back) and keep the pressure on it until you've got the speed to get the tail up and you should find it easier. Dunno what it does in AH2 but it does work for me.

Cheers,
Title: Rudder controls while taxiing/takeoff
Post by: Widewing on June 09, 2004, 05:40:35 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Rolex
Hitech has said that he did add some tailwheel slop in AH2.


In the real world most fighters have locking tailwheels, and they should be locked for takeoff and landing. So, there shouldn't be much "slop". But, if the tailwheel should be accidentally unlocked, groundlooping was common. It would be nice to have lockable tailwheels where they actually existed.

As it is, the aircraft are WAY too rudder sensistive while on the ground in AH2.  

My regards,

Widewing
Title: Rudder controls while taxiing/takeoff
Post by: Swoop73 on June 09, 2004, 05:41:34 PM
AH2 has tried many different sensitivities in rudder trying to model how a ww2 tail dragger really responds. I think they have something reasonable now, but would really like to see the tail wheel lock when the stick is aft of nutral...this is how many fighters including the P51 worked. Actually, I love the way you can now turn on a dime on the runway by locking a brake and bringing the power up a bit. I hope they don't stop at this. A tailwheel lock would be great.
Title: Rudder controls while taxiing/takeoff
Post by: Boat on June 09, 2004, 08:00:43 PM
I have Ch Rudder pedals USB and find a tremendous difference in being able to taxi under AH and AH Beta. The rudder induces wide swings in Beta that do not happen in AH. I thought I was having trouble with calibration in the new version until I saw this thread. As it is now, I can take off and land but taxi-ing to a rearm pad is a real adventure.
Title: Rudder controls while taxiing/takeoff
Post by: Frost on June 09, 2004, 11:34:25 PM
Exactly what Boat said.  Full CH USB setup and taxing is a royal pain in the butt.  Taking off and landing is more difficult than AHI and I'm OK with that, the taxiing is a wild ride.
Title: Rudder controls while taxiing/takeoff
Post by: detch01 on June 10, 2004, 12:03:40 AM
umm anyone remember to check for surface winds? Taxiing, taking off and landing are a whole lot easier into wind..
Title: Rudder controls while taxiing/takeoff
Post by: Rolex on June 10, 2004, 03:28:38 AM
The massive swings with CH pedals (at all deadband and dampening settings) are uncontrolled careening and not taxiing. It is nowhere near normal or something that can be gotten used to after fiddling with settings. It is a bug.

Curious... does HTC have a set of CH USB pedals so this effect can be reproduced?
Title: Rudder controls while taxiing/takeoff
Post by: scott123 on June 10, 2004, 03:50:50 AM
I initially had problems in AH II,but you just have to get used to the fact that you need small increments of rudder both left an right till you build up speed.You are I think over correcting.I have no problems now taking off in AH  II.

 I do think a locking tail wheel would be a good idea though,and more realistic,most WWII aircraft had them.



                 :)
Title: Rudder controls while taxiing/takeoff
Post by: Rolex on June 10, 2004, 05:57:01 AM
When hitech mentioned the tailwheel slop, I naturally asked in text buffer about the possibility of lockable tailwheels for a/c that had them. His reply was that he didn't see much possibility of that happening. This was last week so he may have thought that I was having isolated problems with it. I do think there is a problem. I'm not speaking for him; I'm just relaying what was said.
Title: Rudder controls while taxiing/takeoff
Post by: Boat on June 10, 2004, 11:21:15 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Rolex
The massive swings with CH pedals (at all deadband and dampening settings) are uncontrolled careening and not taxiing. It is nowhere near normal or something that can be gotten used to after fiddling with settings. It is a bug.


Right. It's a bug and has nothing to do with winds or operator input and it should be fixed.
Title: Rudder controls while taxiing/takeoff
Post by: hitech on June 10, 2004, 12:40:56 PM
Boat, I don't belive there is a bug in the  system. Make sure you have the damper on your rudder set very very low. Putting much damper in would create a very hard to control aircraft.


HiTech
Title: Rudder controls while taxiing/takeoff
Post by: DktrEvil on June 10, 2004, 12:52:01 PM
I bought USB Pro peddles a few weeks ago and they worked great in AH I.

AH II is a different story when it comes to taxing/landing.  I landed a 190 last night and attempted to straighten out the nose with my peddle to stay on the runway and immediately lost control, went off the runway and lost my gear, and ended up ditching.

I was not doing anything wrong and had I done the same movements in AH I, I would have been fine.

I didn't pay over $100 for peddles just to disable some of their features and I should't have to.
Title: Rudder controls while taxiing/takeoff
Post by: hitech on June 10, 2004, 01:49:30 PM
DktrEvil, It is not, nore will it be the same as AHI. Landing a tail drager, and learning to stear is not a simple task. I also use CH rudder pedals. The trick is normaly called dancing on the rudder pedals, press quickly then release it. If you hold to long and the nose starts to swing greatly, nice ground loops devlope.


HiTech
Title: Rudder controls while taxiing/takeoff
Post by: DktrEvil on June 10, 2004, 01:53:18 PM
I will try "toe tapping" the pedals and see what happens.
Title: Rudder controls while taxiing/takeoff
Post by: Boat on June 10, 2004, 01:59:40 PM
Quote
Originally posted by hitech
Boat, I don't belive there is a bug in the  system. Make sure you have the damper on your rudder set very very low. Putting much damper in would create a very hard to control aircraft.


HiTech


I've tried the damper everywhere from the bottom to the top of the slider and it makes no difference. I still taxi around the field like a DUI. Aircraft pullls in one direction and by the time you have given it enough rudder to go the other way, you have overcompensated. Call it what you will but I can steer the aircraft on the ground in AH. I cannot do so in Beta.

I have toe brakes enabled and I'm going to try the pedals with brakes disabled and see if that makes any difference.
Title: Rudder controls while taxiing/takeoff
Post by: Boat on June 10, 2004, 02:23:43 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Boat

I have toe brakes enabled and I'm going to try the pedals with brakes disabled and see if that makes any difference.


Nope.
Title: It's real ppl...
Post by: 2Hawks on June 10, 2004, 02:59:42 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Boat
Right. It's a bug and has nothing to do with winds or operator input and it should be fixed.


It's real ppl. It's not a bug. If anything, I think the swing is undermodeled. You have to stay ahead of the yaw when rolling out. Holding the stick back helps keep pressure on the tail wheel (Corsairs Especially) for the initial roll.

But Face it ppl, It's been an arcade up to now. Your going to have to practice for a more accurate flight model. Planes weighed thousands of pounds, and not all of it was in the front. Your basically getting into whats called 'Pilot induced ocilation'.

Practice, and correct minor deviances fast.
Title: Rudder controls while taxiing/takeoff
Post by: ELKON on June 10, 2004, 03:05:29 PM
Hi folks !
Im using a Saitek X36 combo and the effect is the same as long as im slow. Its getting better with increasing speed. I ecpect to see soon something that happend in real alot : crashing Bf 109's while taking off or landing.

Weidmannsheil

Elkon

http://www.whitewings.de
Title: Rudder controls while taxiing/takeoff
Post by: fluffy on June 10, 2004, 03:15:00 PM
Adjust the rudder response profile - worked for me. I was getting really bad trouble on intial takeoff and taxiing with 'wander' - felt like both tires were flat or something. I figured it was unlocked tailwheel combined with oversensitive rudder input.  I had the same problem with AH1 way back in AHI beta, but not so bad.  I had to zero out the first two sliders in the rudder profile and adjust the rest accordingly.  Works like a dream.

I use an old MS Pro jstick with the twist axis controlling the rudders, so this issue was doubly troublesome for me because the handle is a bit loose and outputs small random rudder signals.
AHII has tons of room for customizing controls.
Title: Rudder controls while taxiing/takeoff
Post by: kevykev56 on June 10, 2004, 03:53:58 PM
I had this problem with my ch pro pedals in AH1. The way I fixed it is in the windows calibration.

Before you start the calibration push your toe brakes down 1 to 2 inches. Then when it asks you to calibrate them moving in full range of motion only push the brakes to full down position, never letting the calibration sense the first 1 to 2 inches of travel. It is kind of like setting a manual dampening and it wont exibit the problems of oversensitivity. You can even set your feet on the rudders comfortably without fear of hitting the brakes.

Play with the cal a bit to set it up how you like it best.

Kevin
Title: Rudder controls while taxiing/takeoff
Post by: FBScud on June 10, 2004, 05:35:03 PM
I disabled my toe brakes and I am getting a bit more used to it.  Take offs are much better but taxiing after landing is still a trip.  While I bow to Hi Tech's superior experience, my real life exposure to taxiing has proved to be far less difficult, but then I didn't have the horsepower and torque up front that these beasts have.
Title: Rudder controls while taxiing/takeoff
Post by: DktrEvil on June 10, 2004, 06:59:48 PM
I think this "reality" thing in MA has gone a bit too far :D .  

The average player will not want to deal with this in the MA and I don't blame him/her.  Most MA players are there for quick fights and landing kills.  This will make the landing kills part way more difficult, especially if you are damaged.

I see this as a good addition to the CT since the CT boasts more "realistic" settings

"The Combat Theater is set up for historical gameplay.  There is a two sided war, a limited plane set, and reduced radar. "

and attracts the more experienced pilots.  Most people who fly the CT regularly expect a bit more difficulty and will spend time working on improving their skills.

It would be nice if there were increased effort at making the CT a more realistic arena and let MA be MA.  Personally, I rarely fly MA and spend most of my time in the CT.  

So far, the CT is only different from the MA in as far as there is a limited planeset and Historical maps.  Other than that, it is pretty much the same, flashing bases for all vehicles and planes, radar settings not much different, icon range the same (I think), outside views for buffs, lazer buff guns, auto-takeoff enabled, etc.

Enough pontificating, I have Evil plans to attend to.
Title: Rudder controls while taxiing/takeoff
Post by: kevykev56 on June 10, 2004, 08:43:55 PM
DktrEvil what you are describing is basically what AW use to be. You are wanting a relaxed realism arena. I feel the more this game is like a simulator the more I want to play it. For every person who would want what you want there is another that wants full realism. This is still Beta if its wrong Hitech will make it right.

It only shows you cant make everone happy. As for me........AH2 makes me very happy!!!

Kevin
Title: Rudder controls while taxiing/takeoff
Post by: hitech on June 11, 2004, 08:06:32 AM
dktrevil: What your describing is why auto take off is implemented.
Title: Rudder controls while taxiing/takeoff
Post by: WarLover on June 11, 2004, 11:36:08 AM
Have a full CH USB rig and had a time adjusting to this new model in AH2.

For me, taxiing using brakes and rudder inputs seems to be far superior to AH1. On takeoff I shuffle the rudder peddals and no longer have a ground loop problem. On landing, I use the rudder down to the runway and then use toe brakes to keep it straight during rollout (rudder input becomes ineffective rapidly as the speed decreases during rollout and is almost certain to cause a ground  loop).

From what I've read this seems to be a pretty realistic scenario except real tail draggers had locking tail wheels for take off and landing. The free swivelling tail wheel was an aid to taxiing. If you look at any of the tail dragger training films on Zeno's, they make a big deal out of locking the tail wheel for takeoff and landing.

I like the enhanced realism and only change I'd like to see is the locking tail wheel (IL2 has one).

WarLover
Title: Rudder controls while taxiing/takeoff
Post by: nopoop on June 11, 2004, 11:44:22 AM
Just do the time, rudder inputs are more jabs than anything else. Or dancing as HT says. You'll get used to it, it's easy with a few hundred takeoffs and landings.

USB pro pedals here.
Title: Rudder controls while taxiing/takeoff
Post by: Cobra412 on June 11, 2004, 03:13:58 PM
Not every plane has a lockable tail wheel.  If I remember right Spits are one of those who don't.   I've got a full CH setup and yes it feels as if the plane wants to kind of dip left and right pulling me that way.  I just use differential breaking to keep it to a minimum and keep my airspeed rather low while taxiing.
Title: Rudder controls while taxiing/takeoff
Post by: Zanth on June 11, 2004, 03:23:39 PM
262 is a squirrly sucker on takeoffs.  I was trying to avoid the "invisible runway obstruction bug",  so my motor didn 't get killed again, and almost lost control.  Thing is its a nosewheel plane.
Title: Rudder controls while taxiing/takeoff
Post by: CurtissP-6EHawk on June 11, 2004, 05:24:15 PM
Quote
Originally posted by hitech
Boat, I don't belive there is a bug in the  system. Make sure you have the damper on your rudder set very very low. Putting much damper in would create a very hard to control aircraft.


HiTech


Give us the "Locking" tailwheel or ease up on the "slop". Not only that but we are not able to "feal" the forces that go along with the tail movemenst as one does in "real" taildraggers. Also not being able to feal" the brake inputs are also a big problem for me. No I have not flown an F4U, P-51 or any othe fighter but I have flown a T-6, BT-13, Yale BT-14, Beach 18 and a few other "heavy" tail draggers. I am no "High Time" pilot by any means but I have yet...knock-on-wood, ground looped a real airplane in my 2,000 hours of tailwheel flying. AHII is a bit much IMHO.

Also, remember that the pilots in WWII, most only had a couple hundred hours of flight time...if that! Ground loops were very common.
Title: Re: It's real ppl...
Post by: Boat on June 11, 2004, 06:53:01 PM
Quote
Originally posted by 2Hawks
It's real ppl. It's not a bug.......snip

But Face it ppl, It's been an arcade up to now.


Hey ppl, I'm also for realism and maybe this is not a  bug. The only other choice would be  poor modeling of this particular flight characteristic. I can't believe that these aircraft were nearly  impossible to taxi down a runway at low speed in a straight line.  Practice may make this easier but why HT needs to make taxi-ing to a rearm pad difficult in the name of realism is beyond me, especially in a program that allows auto pilot take offs.