Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: JBA on June 09, 2004, 11:35:46 AM
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http://www.nypost.com/entertainment/22590.htm
June 9, 2004 -- DAN Rather and Tom Brokaw work for different networks but agree one thing — coverage of Ronald Reagan's death has been excessive, they say.
"Even though everybody is respectful and wants to pay homage to the president, life does go on," Rather told the Philadelphia Inquirer.
"There is other news, like the reality of Iraq," said the "CBS Evening News" anchor. "It got very short shrift this weekend."
Networks have been going almost wall-to-wall with coverage since Reagan passed away Saturday at the age of 93. The former president was diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease nearly 10 years ago.
"Once the herd starts moving in one direction, it's very hard to turn it, even slightly," Rather said. "Nationally, the herd has grown tremendously."
"I think just about everything is over-covered these days," said Brokaw, who anchors the "NBC Nightly News." "The spectrum is so crowded. With all the cable networks, it begins to have a 'video wall' feeling to it."
Jennings said he had mixed feelings about the Reagan coverage.
"I'm more inclined to spare coverage — come on [the air], do something meaningful, then get away," he said.
"The last time I had to do it was with O.J. Simpson [during the 1994 car chase], and I had nothing to say after a certain period of time."
Coverage of Reagan's death will continue through Friday's funeral on all the news networks (broadcast and cable). — Post TV Staff
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Oo really Dan/tom,, how long have/will we be covering the Abu-Grap-an-Arab prison?
They hate Reagan because he was a popular President, he received more popular votes then any President in the history of the country, took 49 states in his re-election including the liberal haven Massachusetts)
They fear this will help Bush, If Bush is able to position himself as a Reagan Conservative.
Once again, any good will towards Republicans is bad news for the Liberal media and thier canadates.
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yes it is eating into the prison abuse coverage.
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Reagan was teh man, but I agree it's time to bury him and move on.
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"My fellow Americans, I'm pleased to tell you today that I've signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. We begin bombing in five minutes."
It seems I am in a bad mood today :rolleyes:
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Reagan was a great leader is worthy of the coverage. We have not seen another of his quality since he left office and likely will not in the foreseeable future.
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fediddleing dorks. Let us have our time. He will be buried soon enough you fediddleers.
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Originally posted by Krusher
yes it is eating into the prison abuse coverage.
Here you go.
Legalizing Torture
WASHINGTON POST
OP-ED
Wednesday, June 9, 2004; Page A20
THE BUSH administration assures the country, and the world, that it is complying with U.S. and international laws banning torture and maltreatment of prisoners. But, breaking with a practice of openness that had lasted for decades, it has classified as secret and refused to disclose the techniques of interrogation it is using on foreign detainees at U.S. prisons at Guantanamo Bay and in Afghanistan and Iraq. This is a matter of grave concern because the use of some of the methods that have been reported in the press is regarded by independent experts as well as some of the Pentagon's legal professionals as illegal. The administration has responded that its civilian lawyers have certified its methods as proper -- but it has refused to disclose, or even provide to Congress, the justifying opinions and memos.
This week, thanks again to an independent press, we have begun to learn the deeply disturbing truth about the legal opinions that the Pentagon and the Justice Department seek to keep secret. According to copies leaked to several newspapers, they lay out a shocking and immoral set of justifications for torture. In a paper prepared last year under the direction of the Defense Department's chief counsel, and first disclosed by the Wall Street Journal, the president of the United States was declared empowered to disregard U.S. and international law and order the torture of foreign prisoners. Moreover, interrogators following the president's orders were declared immune from punishment. Torture itself was narrowly redefined, so that techniques that inflict pain and mental suffering could be deemed legal. All this was done as a prelude to the designation of 24 interrogation methods for foreign prisoners -- the same techniques, now in use, that President Bush says are humane but refuses to disclose.
There is no justification, legal or moral, for the judgments made by Mr. Bush's political appointees at the Justice and Defense departments. Theirs is the logic of criminal regimes, of dictatorships around the world that sanction torture on grounds of "national security." For decades the U.S. government has waged diplomatic campaigns against such outlaw governments -- from the military juntas in Argentina and Chile to the current autocracies in Islamic countries such as Algeria and Uzbekistan -- that claim torture is justified when used to combat terrorism. The news that serving U.S. officials have officially endorsed principles once advanced by Augusto Pinochet brings shame on American democracy -- even if it is true, as the administration maintains, that its theories have not been put into practice. Even on paper, the administration's reasoning will provide a ready excuse for dictators, especially those allied with the Bush administration, to go on torturing and killing detainees.
Perhaps the president's lawyers have no interest in the global impact of their policies -- but they should be concerned about the treatment of American servicemen and civilians in foreign countries. Before the Bush administration took office, the Army's interrogation procedures -- which were unclassified -- established this simple and sensible test: No technique should be used that, if used by an enemy on an American, would be regarded as a violation of U.S. or international law. Now, imagine that a hostile government were to force an American to take drugs or endure severe mental stress that fell just short of producing irreversible damage; or pain a little milder than that of "organ failure, impairment of bodily function, or even death." What if the foreign interrogator of an American "knows that severe pain will result from his actions" but proceeds because causing such pain is not his main objective? What if a foreign leader were to decide that the torture of an American was needed to protect his country's security? Would Americans regard that as legal, or morally acceptable? According to the Bush administration, they should.
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Ooops!!
Army Now Says G.I. Was Beaten in Role
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: June 9, 2004
LOUISVILLE, Ky., June 8 — Reversing itself, the Army said Tuesday that a G.I. was discharged partly because of a head injury he suffered while posing as an uncooperative detainee during a training exercise at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba.
The Army had previously said Specialist Sean Baker's medical discharge in April was unrelated to the injury he received last year at the detention center, where the United States holds suspected terrorists.
Mr. Baker, 37, a former member of the 438th Military Police Company, said he played the role of an uncooperative prisoner and was beaten so badly by four American soldiers that he suffered a traumatic brain injury and seizures. He said the soldiers only stopped beating him when they realized he might be American.
Bruce Simpson, Mr. Baker's lawyer, said his client is considering a lawsuit.
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Yeah, who cares about Reagan. He only had the second highest approval ratings of the 20th Century, was loved on a personal level and respected on an ideological level by both sides of the isle.
Give us more stories of the righteous Iraqi freedom fighters avenging the deaths of their family members who were killed by the Zionist supporting Imperialist Americans!
:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Boroda
"My fellow Americans, I'm pleased to tell you today that I've signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. We begin bombing in five minutes."
It seems I am in a bad mood today :rolleyes:
C'mon, that was a f***ing funny joke. If it were the Russian president joking off-camera, I'd still laugh.
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We'll have plenty of additional Reagan coverage in August.
Seems the ban on showing flag draped coffins of our war vets/heroes has finally been lifted...:rolleyes:
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It seems I am in a bad mood today
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could it be because...
YOUR A RUSSIAN!
HAHA!!
:rofl
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If it was JFK (without the headwound) croaking at 93 we would have a solid month of coverage. Hell, Brokaw and Rather would be self-flagellating themselves live on TV.
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Originally posted by Makarov9
... Hell, Brokaw and Rather would be self-flagellating themselves live on TV.
Now THAT I'd like to see.
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
Yeah, who cares about Reagan. He only had the second highest approval ratings of the 20th Century
Really? This graph seems to refute that and it only shows post WW2 Presidents.
(http://www.pollkatz.homestead.com/files/gallupfivepresdata_2682_image001.gif)
Whatt source did you use to reach this conclusion?
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This is nothing compared to the coverage of John F. Kennedy's assassination and funeral. Granted, that was an entirely different type of event.
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I feel his coverage should be half of Princess Di
I think we have a ways to go yet ....
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I heard what he said, he was mentioning that, or was it NBC, but they were mentioning that people who werent born in this one presidents burial time would think it's excessive, and dan rathers was born then cause he's what? 1000yrs old?
That this was normal for any great president, or perhaps just slow news days..
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This is total BS.
Like we need to see MORE on Iraq. How could we see more???
What I think is blown out of purportion is when a Media reporter gets killed. Holy smokes, you'd think the guy was the President or something......
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Originally posted by Boroda
"My fellow Americans, I'm pleased to tell you today that I've signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. We begin bombing in five minutes."
It seems I am in a bad mood today :rolleyes:
Bomb Russia (http://www.earthstation1.com/History/bombing.wav) :rofl
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Originally posted by Boroda
"My fellow Americans, I'm pleased to tell you today that I've signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. We begin bombing in five minutes."
It seems I am in a bad mood today :rolleyes:
Bomb Russia (http://www.earthstation1.com/History/bombing.wav) :rofl
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Normally I think Rather is on the mark, but this time I disagree. I remember the coverage of Eisenhower, Truman, Johnson and Bobby Kennedy's funerals in the 60's and 70's(was too young to remember JFK's). Those bordered on OJ style 24/7 coverage. Footage of the train passing thru stations on the way to Washington, ect.
It has been a long time since the death of a President and people forget the Pomp and Circumstance that go along. Nixon's funeral was downplayed greatly because of his transgressions and resignation.
I expect Reagan's to be along the scale of Eisenhower's funeral. The man earned that level of respect.
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Originally posted by mora
Bomb Russia (http://www.earthstation1.com/History/bombing.wav) :rofl
Here we don't have enough "excessive coverage". No more then Brezhnev's funeral. And noone from our "free press" or "liberal media" ever mentioned this radio speech.
A great president. And a bastard who ordered me and millions of my compatriots to be burnt by hydrogen bombs. Live on the radio.
:mad:
From our beloved free press I can only learn that he did us a favour by destroying our country.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Whatt source did you use to reach this conclusion?
Ill find it, gimme a sec. Gallup poll - might have neglected to mention that it was retrospective. ;)
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Originally posted by Boroda
From our beloved free press I can only learn that he did us a favour by destroying our country.
HE destroyed your country??? Guess you and your beloved compatriots had nothing to do with it huh? Amazing the victum consciousness displayed in that post. Guess that's America's fault too huh?
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You destroyed your own country.
Some day you'll admit it. It's the first step to recovery.
Until then, wallow in your self-inflicted misery while you blame someone else. ;)
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Originally posted by Boroda
Here we don't have enough "excessive coverage". No more then Brezhnev's funeral. And noone from our "free press" or "liberal media" ever mentioned this radio speech.
A great president. And a bastard who ordered me and millions of my compatriots to be burnt by hydrogen bombs. Live on the radio.
:mad:
From our beloved free press I can only learn that he did us a favour by destroying our country.
LOL
tell your countrymen to get their heads outa the bottle so you can tell a joke from reality
if he pissed you and your "countrymen" off, he was even a better POTUS than I ever imagined ... LOL
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All the answers above are from the people who praise Reagan for "winning the cold war".
You are right. You didn't win it. We lost. We tried to do impossible for 50 years, and at least we tried.
I just wonder what moral and mental decay can lead to jokes like "We begin bombing in five minutes". There are some things I'll never understand :(
And, if you didn't understand it (you guys are quite predictable, selective filter installed) - I am angry at Russian media, that says that Reagan "destroyed USSR" as if he have done us a favour, and doesn't ever mention this beautiful speach.
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Originally posted by Boroda
We tried to do impossible for 50 years, and at least we tried.
True. You inflicted an incredibly painful, totally unworkable and dehumanizing political and economic system on millions of people, depriving them of a multitude of the pleasures of everyday living.
Well, at least you tried to totally screw up the world.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Here we don't have enough "excessive coverage". No more then Brezhnev's funeral. And noone from our "free press" or "liberal media" ever mentioned this radio speech.
A great president. And a bastard who ordered me and millions of my compatriots to be burnt by hydrogen bombs. Live on the radio.
:mad:
From our beloved free press I can only learn that he did us a favour by destroying our country.
Nice catch.. :lol
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Well, I'll tell ya.
If the head guy in Russia would have said that, there are a lot of people here that would have been pretty upset too. That's true.
What would I have thought...? I would probably have thought about whether the guy who said it was off his rocker or not....
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Originally posted by Toad
True. You inflicted an incredibly painful, totally unworkable and dehumanizing political and economic system on millions of people, depriving them of a multitude of the pleasures of everyday living.
Well, at least you tried to totally screw up the world.
Toad, I love the things they installed into your brain in the military :)
You know nothing about life in the USSR, I have to say this again and again.
I envy your irrational, almost religious faith in your twisted values.
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USSR? No, never went there.
Been to CZ quite a bit though and met a lot of folks. Didn't meet ANY that were glad to have been conquered by you Soviets, didn't meet any that wanted you back and didn't meet any the really had anything good to say about you folks at all.
I suspect most of your conquered satellite states feel the same way. Latvian Love? I think not! Hungarian Hankering for the Rodina? Not likely.
You guys *)*&@#$% Eastern Europe. But you can deny that too.
Heck, you have to; that much truth would drive you to suicide.
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Originally posted by rpm371
Normally I think Rather is on the mark, ...
Never.
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Originally posted by Boroda
"My fellow Americans, I'm pleased to tell you today that I've signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. We begin bombing in five minutes."
:rofl :rofl :rofl loved that one
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Boroda!!! Comrade!!! Resist Toad's American Imperialist Lies!!! Za Rodinu!!!!
(http://radio.weblogs.com/0001015/images/2002/09/21/lenin.jpg)
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And for the rest of us, enjoy!
Copy and paste this link to hear the file. :)
http://www.wavsource.com/people/politics/reagan_bomb_x.wav
What a great man, a great president and most important of all, a great leader!
Ronald Reagan
(http://www.joesautobody.com/reagan.jpg)
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Originally posted by Boroda
All the answers above are from the people who praise Reagan for "winning the cold war".
You are right. You didn't win it. We lost. We tried to do impossible for 50 years, and at least we tried.
I just wonder what moral and mental decay can lead to jokes like "We begin bombing in five minutes". There are some things I'll never understand :(
And, if you didn't understand it (you guys are quite predictable, selective filter installed) - I am angry at Russian media, that says that Reagan "destroyed USSR" as if he have done us a favour, and doesn't ever mention this beautiful speach.
Borda, Reagan was well known for his sense of humor. If you can't see the funny in the joke and you know it's a joke, you just don't understand his humor. That's fine, I never really got Yakov Smirnoff.
I think Mikhail Gorbachev desreves a great deal of credit in ending the cold war. He was able to see the Soviet Union could not afford continue to compete in an arms race with the US. It would bankrupt the country. Reagan maxed out the US credit card, went "All In" and played a nice bluff with "Star Wars" to win the cold war poker game. I believe everyone came out a winner in that coming to an end and both men should share the credit.
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Boroda sees Gorbachov as an evil traitor who ruined the soviet dream state...
In fact I think Boroda is so far out there that even considers Lenin to be a traitor in some way....
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Blather and Brokejaw? Is anyone surprised that they are pissed that Regan is taking away from their lefty agenda?
Aren't they canadians anyway?
lazs
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I may not agree with the mans politics.
but there is no arguing that he was one of the most (if not the most) popular presidents.
I also have to admit that he seemed to genuinely believe what he said.
like any news story, they'll stop covering it when people stop watching. until then seems like a lot of people want to morn his death. Just like everyone else, I can always switch to another channel if I don't like the coverage I'm seeing.
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Nice picture of Ronnie. He always wore a nice suit, and he always tied his tie nicely. I think he probably used this knot to achieve the triangular shaped knot - which he always had...
(http://www.krawattenknoten.info/krawatten/Krawattenknoten/knoten/pratt.gif)
That's the Pratt knot, and the one I always used - before I got to the suit burning stage in life.
Ronnie.
Good to see Patti Davis comforting Nancy. Seems like they've made their peace. I read Patti's book in 1994. Cracking read. The first three chapters were about child abuse - written in the first person...
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Originally posted by lazs2
Blather and Brokejaw? Is anyone surprised that they are pissed that Regan is taking away from their lefty agenda?
Aren't they canadians anyway?
lazs
You're thinking of Peter Jennings.
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Beet1e, did you ever read Nancy's reply? I think it was titled "My Turn". I haven't read either, but am working on my reading list for the next trip to the sandbox.
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I only wish we had a man like him as president today. Not a slam against Jr, but Jr is no Ronald Reagan...thats for sure. Thats for danged sure.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Really? This graph seems to refute that and it only shows post WW2 Presidents.
(http://www.pollkatz.homestead.com/files/gallupfivepresdata_2682_image001.gif)
Whatt source did you use to reach this conclusion?
Not a fancy poll, but maybe more telling of how popular Reagan was with the Americans and American voters?
(http://208.56.219.94/map1.gif)
1980 LANDSLIDE over Carter.
(http://208.56.219.94/map2.gif)
1984 LANDSLIDE over Mondale
In 1984, more people voted for Reagan than any other President in US history. That number stands today even though there are 30 million more people in the US today. He had over 58% of the popular vote as well.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Toad, I love the things they installed into your brain in the military :)
You know nothing about life in the USSR, I have to say this again and again.
I envy your irrational, almost religious faith in your twisted values.
Boroda, your ongoing descent into idiocy is more than enough reason to warrant an MRI. I think you've spawned a fast-growing tumor in what's left of your brain.
Toad might not have much first hand experience about life in your ****hole of a nation but I do and guess what, I wouldn't go back there if I were being threatened with dismemberment.
Boasting an average life expectancy of 66 years(having seen the inside of a Moscow hospital in 2001, I'm shocked it's even that high, and BTW, nice going beating-out Bangladesh),
world life expectancy rates (http://geography.about.com/library/weekly/aa042000b.htm)
and an average monthly income, in cities, of just over $200 a month, in a nation that is home to three dozen billionaires, monthly income rates (http://www.russianamericanchamber.org/newsletter/small_private_business.html), your beautiful proletariat's paradise is anything but.
The world should be thankful that the USSR, that shameful hell-spawn of Lenin and Stalin's collective colon, is gone. It's only regretful that there are humans like you still around trying to preach the inherent beauty of the hammer and sickle.
About ten years ago I was told by a fellow former Russian that it will take at least a generation for Russian society to begin to recover. Reason being, because that's how long it will take for the last of the Communist groupies to either die or go into convalescence.
I think he was being optimistic.
<> RIP Ronald
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Originally posted by Toad
USSR? No, never went there.
Been to CZ quite a bit though and met a lot of folks. Didn't meet ANY that were glad to have been conquered by you Soviets, didn't meet any that wanted you back and didn't meet any the really had anything good to say about you folks at all.
I suspect most of your conquered satellite states feel the same way. Latvian Love? I think not! Hungarian Hankering for the Rodina? Not likely.
You guys *)*&@#$% Eastern Europe. But you can deny that too.
Heck, you have to; that much truth would drive you to suicide.
And you guys *)*&@#$% every place where you interfere. Please compare modern Vietnam where Red side won and Afghanistan where Blue side won. Then Yugoslavia, and Iraq goes the same way.
Toad, here we come to our argument about who was the right side in the cold war. I have already told you that the reason for Soviet presence in Eastern Europe was the deadly threat from the West. Now, after this quote from your great leader - do you really think you were "defending from communist agression" and USSR didn't have to fear?...
We want to live in our own way. We don't need any stinking democracy that "begins bombing in five minutes". American policy towards Russia and Russian people is very much summed up in Zbignev Brzezinsky's "Grand Chessboard". Your leaders still dream to "outlaw Russia forever"... Only 15 millions out of 150 must live in Russian Federation according to your ideologists, other 135 millions are waste. This is even worse then Hitler's "Plan Ost".
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Boroda sees Gorbachov as an evil traitor who ruined the soviet dream state...
In fact I think Boroda is so far out there that even considers Lenin to be a traitor in some way....
Lenin was a German agent, sponsored by Germans and acting to withdraw Russia from WWI, leaving all Southern Russia to Germans... It's a sad fact. He was not a traitor, just a paid agent. The worst traitor in Russian history was the last Emperor, Nikolay II, who deserted in war time, after destroying army and failing to restore order.
As for Gorby - I can suggest him to commit a ritual suicide to be buried in one grave with Reagan, according to old pagan traditions. Sorry, I don't want to offend Reagan... I already said in another thread that I think he indeed was a great leader.
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Originally posted by VOR
Beet1e, did you ever read Nancy's reply? I think it was titled "My Turn". I haven't read either, but am working on my reading list for the next trip to the sandbox.
No, I never did read that. Was it a rebuttal? Patti herself was not all sweetness and light. She went a bit Bohemian and started selling drugs at one point.
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Originally posted by Capt. Pork
Boasting an average life expectancy of 66 years(having seen the inside of a Moscow hospital in 2001, I'm shocked it's even that high, and BTW, nice going beating-out Bangladesh),
This is true :( Our new "democratic" regime is busy destroying what is left from Soviet health-care system. Damn. What goes on in public hospitals now is worse then what we had in 1941. I am glad that my Father is a veteran and enjoys military health-care.
All you saw is only a result of deliberate destruction of Soviet heritage.
What most of you fail to understand is that what we had here in Soviet times was not "good" or "bad", it was just different. And compared to the current state of affairs it was Golden Age. :(
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LOL
good hijack, would rather listen to boron cry in his vodka about RR then Dhole Rather whine about the tele coverage
imagine the coverage when slick dies? it'll be a scene from the movie "The Man Who loved Women" :)
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000006PBQ.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg)
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Originally posted by Eagler
LOL
good hijack, would rather listen to boron cry in his vodka about RR then Dhole Rather whine about the tele coverage
imagine the coverage when slick dies? it'll be a scene from the movie "The Man Who loved Women"
Gosh, you Neo's are bitter, aren't you?
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Boroda is at least partially right; the fall of communism might have been good for the economic freedoms of the Yelstin cronies and the western venture capitalists that backed them in their scramble to buy former state assets at a fraction of their real value, but for the man in the Moscow street incomes have fallen in real terms.
Guys like Capt Pork just assume that because there's now an ostensibly western style regime, everyone should be prospering in western style, disregarding the fact that that the so called liberalization of the nation has been translated as a gold rush for few at the expense of the many. But that's ok, as long as he and his ilk can continue to live the sheltered good life, thousands of miles away, right?
Russia has merely followed the established pattern as demonstrated recently in places like Indonesia, Argentina, Chile etc etc. What the IMF would term as Capital Market Liberalisation really signifies is capital flight, asset stripping and increased corruption. But who gives a toss, as long as the West keeps on getting fatter and richer?
Sorry for the hijack, please carry on pontificating about things you haven't even started to understand.
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I don't think anyone was saying that the new russia is thriving or even doing better than before. Only that it is better for the world and that the soviets at least have a chance to do better.
Alot of people, even here, are afraid of freedom and would move back in with their mom if they could. kerry voters for instance.
lazs
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Momus, thank you! You said what I meant exactly.
Lazs, I am not happy that there is only one super-power left in the world. It couldn't be better if Soviet side have won cold war... In your terms it's "competition", in our terms it's "balance".
As for people afraid of "freedom" - I am sure that 95% of the people on this board could be absolutely happy living in USSR. The problem is that unlike us you didn't see both systems. Soviet system had it's drawbacks, Western system has some too. What we have here now is a beautiful combination of bad things from both systems :(
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and I am happy that there are not soviet missles aimed at me or that they are no longer gobbling up little countries.
maybe you are right tho... 95% of the people on this board would be happy living in the great soviet womb. Apparently there were some who didn't like it tho cause you had to have walls to keep em in and guards on every celebrety or athlete who visitied so they wouldn't wander off... Americans didn't fly jets to Russia to escape America.
Even Mexico doesn't build walls to keep it's people in. If I couldn't go where I wanted I would not be too friggin fond of my government... If foreign goods were allmost impossible to get I wouldn't be too fond of my government. If people I knew disapeared all the time I wouldn't be too fond of my government.
boroda... I think you are too young to even know what living under soviet rule was like.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
and I am happy that there are not soviet missles aimed at me or that they are no longer gobbling up little countries.
maybe you are right tho... 95% of the people on this board would be happy living in the great soviet womb. Apparently there were some who didn't like it tho cause you had to have walls to keep em in and guards on every celebrety or athlete who visitied so they wouldn't wander off... Americans didn't fly jets to Russia to escape America.
Even Mexico doesn't build walls to keep it's people in. If I couldn't go where I wanted I would not be too friggin fond of my government... If foreign goods were allmost impossible to get I wouldn't be too fond of my government. If people I knew disapeared all the time I wouldn't be too fond of my government.
boroda... I think you are too young to even know what living under soviet rule was like.
lazs
Do you think the missiles disappeared? :( I am sure American missiles are still aimed at Moscow. In early 90-s Yeltsin declared that Russian strategic weapons are not aimed at the US any more, but then it was forgotten fast :(
You pointed bad things about Soviet regime, the only thing I can argue is "people I knew disapeared all the time". This sings were over a looong time ago. But now look: there are foreign goods availible but very few people can afford them. And now many people prefer to buy native goods because the quality of imports is much worse.
I am 31 now, when USSR broke apart I was 19. Comsomol member since 1987. I remember Brezhnev's times pretty well :) I don't mention worst things about Soviet regime because you'll never understand them... Using common sence on some matters can heavily damage unprepared brain :)
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Originally posted by Boroda
I have already told you that the reason for Soviet presence in Eastern Europe was the deadly threat from the West.
There you have it, ladies and gentlemen... A man who takes the concept of Pravda to a whole new level.
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LOL.... ya I'm sure Poland is relieved to hear that.
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Originally posted by Capt. Pork
There you have it, ladies and gentlemen... A man who takes the concept of Pravda to a whole new level.
So you want to say that people who could afford jokes like that are peacefull friendly humanists?...
Again: we have withdrawn from Eastern Europe, and now we get NATO attack planes only 5 minutes of flight from Leningrad (SPb). NATO moves it's forces from Germany towards Russian borders. Is it a peacefull act of love to all Russians?
Open any history book and look how many times my country was invaded from the West. Then try to employ your thought-secretion gangle.
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Originally posted by Momus--
Guys like Capt Pork just assume that because there's now an ostensibly western style regime, everyone should be prospering in western style, disregarding the fact that that the so called liberalization of the nation has been translated as a gold rush for few at the expense of the many.
Actually, my only point was that Russia, in its past or present form, does a worse job at taking care of its citizens that the USA, and that I would never return to that way of life. My understanding of this issue is only as good as anyone else's who's called both nations home.
Where does your enlightened understanding of this issue come from?
You're right about one thing, though. I don't give a toss anymore. The Soviet Golden Age, as the Beard put it, alienated my family to the point where fleeing was the only sane option. In this, I am not alone.
I wonder why Victor Belenko decided to steal his Mig25 in 1976? Wasn't that your Golden Age? He didn't know so much about where he was going but he knew what he was leaving. When he got here, like the rest of us, he had serious trouble believing that life could be so different and yes, so much better.
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Originally posted by Capt. Pork
Actually, my only point was that Russia, in its past or present form, does a worse job at taking care of its citizens that the USA, and that I would never return to that way of life. My understanding of this issue is only as good as anyone else's who's called both nations home.
Where does your enlightened understanding of this issue come from?
Russia could do much better in taking care of it's citizens, only if it wasn't the country that was invaded every 50-100 years, defeated nazism without almost any help from "civilized world" and then got stuck in a cold war with a country that didn't suffer from WWII and only counted profits when Russians died by millions. And we could live much better now if your brilliant advisors from IMF and other "charity foundations" didn't make their wise advises how to destroy our economics faster.
Originally posted by Capt. Pork
You're right about one thing, though. I don't give a toss anymore. The Soviet Golden Age, as the Beard put it, alienated my family to the point where fleeing was the only sane option. In this, I am not alone.
I wonder why Victor Belenko decided to steal his Mig25 in 1976? Wasn't that your Golden Age? He didn't know so much about where he was going but he knew what he was leaving. When he got here, like the rest of us, he had serious trouble believing that life could be so different and yes, so much better.
Nice example. A moral freak and traitor, who have left his family for some imaginary benefits and then shared the sad faith of all the traitors, being wasted by his American "friends".
Your family "escaped" from the USSR? Well, everyone has the choice. I hope you are doing better in the West. I prefer to stay here. Maybe because I don't have to hide liquor bottles into paper bags in the street here :)
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Originally posted by Boroda
Open any history book and look how many times my country was invaded from the West. Then try to employ your thought-secretion gangle.
Very clever phrasing. How many times has your country committed crimes against its own people? Yes, admittedly, the West was an aggressive force, but how else do you respond to a vast empire, possessing the world's second largest collection of ICBM-based nuclear warheads, ruled by a single man who has no love for his own citizenry. Don't forget Kruschev's little show at the UN, or Sputnik flying over the heads of every living American, demonstrating the ability, in no un-specific terms, to wipe out any target on the planet. I didn't realize the mighty soviet empire was such a victim...
Out of curiosity, Beard, how much time have you spent touring the States?
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Originally posted by Boroda
Nice example. A moral freak and traitor, who have left his family for some imaginary benefits and then shared the sad faith of all the traitors, being wasted by his American "friends".
I guess you're one of the people who believes he's dead.
interview with Lt. Belenko (http://www.videofact.com/english/defectors2_4en.html)
"At present time the general population in that country thinks that I was killed decades ago. My death was confirmed in a St. Petersburg newspaper, this summer, in Smena [1996]."
Freedom of the press, eh Beard?
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Originally posted by Capt. Pork
Very clever phrasing. How many times has your country committed crimes against its own people? Yes, admittedly, the West was an aggressive force, but how else do you respond to a vast empire, possessing the world's second largest collection of ICBM-based nuclear warheads, ruled by a single man who has no love for his own citizenry. Don't forget Kruschev's little show at the UN, or Sputnik flying over the heads of every living American, demonstrating the ability, in no un-specific terms, to wipe out any target on the planet. I didn't realize the mighty soviet empire was such a victim...
More then 50% of Soviet budget went on defence needs. The rest was somehow working for defence too.
Who invented and used the Bomb first? Did you hear about nuclear attack plans against USSR called Charioter, Fleetwood, Dropshoot? If we didn't develop this things - we could end as a 1/6th of the land with no population and radioactive ruins where cities were. Again, please remember Reagan's "joke". Damn he was serious!
Originally posted by Capt. Pork
Out of curiosity, Beard, how much time have you spent touring the States?
Svinina, I spent 4 weeks in the US in 1989. Not much, but I loved your country. Still didn't see any reasons to change my country of residence.
And were you born in USSR? What place?
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Originally posted by Capt. Pork
I guess you're one of the people who believes he's dead.
interview with Lt. Belenko (http://www.videofact.com/english/defectors2_4en.html)
"At present time the general population in that country thinks that I was killed decades ago. My death was confirmed in a St. Petersburg newspaper, this summer, in Smena [1996]."
Freedom of the press, eh Beard?
Yes. And John Lennon wasn't killed, he applied for Soviet citizenship right after Moscow Olympics, and lives now in Dzheskazgan, Kazakhstan. He also has contacts in the US, but never uses his real name.
:D
If you believe such things - there is a problem with you, not with "freedom of press", sorry ;)
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Originally posted by Boroda
And were you born in USSR? What place?
I was born in the very city where you now live. Moskva.
Regarding Belenko--I've seen a lot about him on the web, about his current career as a consultant in the aerospace industry... Yeah, our press may be biased, but its history of misrepresentation doesn't hold a candle to yours.
I'd do a google search on Belenko if I were you, and keep your eyes open, even if it kills you.
Sorry I can't stick around for any more of this discussion. I have class at one of our oppressive, murderous, capitolist-run Universities in 40 minutes.
Peace
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Guess the Soviets shouldn't have built their house upon the sand. Feel free to blame the US for the fall of the USSR, we accept it with pride.
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Originally posted by beet1e
No, I never did read that. Was it a rebuttal? Patti herself was not all sweetness and light. She went a bit Bohemian and started selling drugs at one point.
Yes, a rebuttal. I didn't know about Patti selling drugs..wow. Makes me wonder if Nacy's anti-drug campaign was fueled by this. I would assume so.
I've gotta place an order for these books.
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Originally posted by Capt. Pork
I was born in the very city where you now live. Moskva.
Regarding Belenko--I've seen a lot about him on the web, about his current career as a consultant in the aerospace industry... Yeah, our press may be biased, but its history of misrepresentation doesn't hold a candle to yours.
I'd do a google search on Belenko if I were you, and keep your eyes open, even if it kills you.
Sorry I can't stick around for any more of this discussion. I have class at one of our oppressive, murderous, capitolist-run Universities in 40 minutes.
Peace
Hmm. Made a google search for "áåëåíêî ìèã-25". Interesting. The interview you posted may be true.
Some more facts: one of the reasons for his defection may be the following: in Vietnam Americans were dropping leaflets around Red airfields, promising a $100K prize for pilots who'll bring them Soviet fighters. Belenko did know about this. Funny that he didn't get the money.
There were serious signs that Belenko was working for CIA.
Belenko's MiG studies by Americans have let USSR to export MiG-25s, because the machine could not stay "classified" any more. That's how Iraq got 20 MiG-25s ;)
I had a chance to talk to people who worked at MAPO MiG, and they have told me their side of the story. Belenko flew a plane from small serie of 6 machines with "experimental" electronic equipment. The experiment was unsuccessfull, and his MiG must have been returned to the factory for modernisation in a matter of weeks anyway. So - Americans got anything but the real MiG...
Anyway, traitor is a traitor. And a person who left his wife and daughter is a freak...
From his interview I only see that he suffers from "emigrant syndrome". He still tries to justify his treason by same slogans he heard on "Voice of America" in the 70s. And he has no idea of what goes on here now. I doubt that someone will want to pay for his "lectures". Miserable aging clown.
How old were you when you left Russia? Whan did it happen? Sorry for calling you "Svinina" ;)
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Originally posted by Momus--
Boroda is at least partially right; the fall of communism might have been good for the economic freedoms of the Yelstin cronies and the western venture capitalists that backed them in their scramble to buy former state assets at a fraction of their real value, but for the man in the Moscow street incomes have fallen in real terms.
Guys like Capt Pork just assume that because there's now an ostensibly western style regime, everyone should be prospering in western style, disregarding the fact that that the so called liberalization of the nation has been translated as a gold rush for few at the expense of the many. But that's ok, as long as he and his ilk can continue to live the sheltered good life, thousands of miles away, right?
Russia has merely followed the established pattern as demonstrated recently in places like Indonesia, Argentina, Chile etc etc. What the IMF would term as Capital Market Liberalisation really signifies is capital flight, asset stripping and increased corruption. But who gives a toss, as long as the West keeps on getting fatter and richer?
Sorry for the hijack, please carry on pontificating about things you haven't even started to understand.
Now lets be careful here. You are basically right, there have been problems just like you said Momus.
But what is the alternative? I hope you arent suggesting it would have been better for Russia and the whole of eatern europe dominated and supressed by the USSR and communism to have stayed in cold war communist mode.
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Originally posted by Boroda
How old were you when you left Russia? Whan did it happen? Sorry for calling you "Svinina" ;)
I was only a child when we left, but have been back several times in my teenage years and more recently, in my 20s. It is true that most of what I know came in the form of stories from my parents, who, as Jews, have a slightly different view of the Soviet System than say, my grandfather, who was and still remains a die-hard communist despite the fact that he's been living here on and off, since 1986.
I don't mind you calling me Svinina. I named myself Capt. Pork and thus did not take it as an insult. If you'd said that I was full of Malafya, on the other hand, I might get a bit irked.
Anyway, we're not going to agree on much, I don't think. That being said, I'm starting to feel lousy for getting pissed off at you.