Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Aces High Bug Reports => Topic started by: Misfit on June 12, 2004, 04:20:53 PM
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This has been posted as a historical question already.Slats by Wotan (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=119944)
Since patch 42 the slats on the 109 and 110 have become very stiff on horizontal maneuvers. This seems like a bug as they were no where near this in previous patches.
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Slats make the Me's very unstable now. Everytime one of the slats deploys it snaprolls the plane a bit. Since they deploy allot the planes have become unflyable in combat.
Are they supposed to do that?
Greetz Dutchie
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Well Dutchie,
I think that is the real question. I dont know if this is a bug or that HT made changes to the slats because of historical purposes.
If this is historical, well EWWWWWW :(
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Me 109 pilots said the slats, when deploying made the plane very unstable because they moved out with a great speed, this was often a problem when they were about to fire while in a turning fight with an enemy plane as, while they turn behind him, they sometimes got into the slip stream from the nmy plane, the slip stream made the slats deploy unexpectedly and threw the aim off.
IMO they seem to be moving in an out a bit too much though, maybe? Even when in a quite stable turn they move in and out and it is almost hard to get by the area where they move and settle in a steady turn.
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Yup the 109's are no fun to fly anymore :( gonna see a lot more spits and lala's..thats what I will be in:)
shamus
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Wilbus could you please post a source for the slats making the plane unstable...
I posted data in the other threads in that a lot pilots liked the slats. They state that they "slammed" open but not that they snap rolled the plane. Most issues sited are aileron biting and notching back of the elevators as the slats deployed.
Most of the slat issues were related to the 109e.
I have searched for a few hours through my books and on the web.
Anyone try the la7 or La5 or 262?
Please check the link I provided in the other thread.
Try going verticle and wing over back in, the slats pop open and flip the ac over. I cant imagine designing a plne with such a feature as that. Plus there are times where the slats open and close rapidly causing the plane to yaw about...
Even the slats in IL2 and wwiiol dont cause any of what we see here. But what do I know. Thats why I satrted the thread in the A and V forum.
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My bad Helvik,
I just figured it a "over correction" done in this patch.:rolleyes:
Bump for the Love of Willy!:cool:
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Try going verticle and wing over back in, the slats pop open and flip the ac over. I cant imagine designing a plne with such a feature as that. Plus there are times where the slats open and close rapidly causing the plane to yaw about...
Now that is what I think it should not do. They open and close rapidly, it is sometimes even difficult to get past the "line" where they deploy and retract because they do it so much.
Wotan, I never said they made them go into a snap roll. I said the pilots that WHEN they opened they opened quite hard and could throw ones aim off a bit, perfectly understandable IMO.
Wether I can actually find the source again or not I can't promiss, been some time since I read it.
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Hi!
By no means im an expert or something, but I have read too somewhere that there were pilots the didnt like the fact that the slats would pop open and thus throw off their aim because they didnt pop open both at the same time. This gives, off course, a rolling movement.
But, AFAIK this was only with the earlier versions, later ones had slats that were connected and thus would not throw the aim off that much, as they were either both deployed or both not deployed.
Could that be or am i totally off?
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I have just tested it offline:
The La5, La7, 109G10, 110G2 have slats, and they are all unconnected to each other. The pop open independently.
This explains why the aim is driven off when the slats pop open on the 109, if your not coordinated one pops open earlier.
Was it this way in RL?
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Flying 110 I definitely noticed "slat" operation... jiggled the nose side to side in a turn...
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The fat that they snap roll the plane somewhat is not strange Wotan, not is it strange that they open independently as the speed of the upper wing and the lower wing in a turn are different. The real questions is wether they should open and shut as much as they do, sometimes they seem to go crazy and pop open and close several times a second, that is what makes it difficult to get past it and get into a stable turn.
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http://freespace.virgin.net/john.dell/spitcom.htm
One link I foud quite quickly, it is not this link I was talking about before but here too they comment on the slats "throwing off the aim" of 109 pilots if they deployed in the critical moment.
It is IMO not weird that they would do that as they change the aerodynamics of the plane somewhat, and they deploy very fast and with a heavy bang and force, they should definatly affect the plane.
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Originally posted by Wilbus
http://freespace.virgin.net/john.dell/spitcom.htm
One link I foud quite quickly, it is not this link I was talking about before but here too they comment on the slats "throwing off the aim" of 109 pilots if they deployed in the critical moment.
It is IMO not weird that they would do that as they change the aerodynamics of the plane somewhat, and they deploy very fast and with a heavy bang and force, they should definatly affect the plane.
Very interesting link Wil! :)
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ok now ive tried it, yes the slats are "broken" in AHII...
i missed a recording chance but more than once last night i had each slat coming out on its own, flicking back in which caused the other to flick out....that would flick in....and errr you know, the other one came out. This WASNT with that high AOA either....
it also seems you cant keep them out... IE the turns i do, even if they are the same force on the stick with no slippage cause the slats to keep going in and out, sometimes in random orders.
Ch1: WTG overlag on evasives there, couldnt hit ya
me: no, that was just my 109 going nuts :(
B41 was "right" B42 is just wrong...... :(
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Slats dont show in the film viewer unfortunately. I find the chase view best to see them shaking about.
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Exactly Overlag, that is the problem, they pop in and out like crazy.
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seem a bit overdone .. I thought the noise was bad enough but now it affects flight/aim = game
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it also seems you cant keep them out... IE the turns i do, even if they are the same force on the stick with no slippage cause the slats to keep going in and out, sometimes in random orders.
Oh they can be kept out alright.
But the problem is none of the 109s can maintain a hard turn under 200mph with AoA high enough to keep them popped out.
It's like this;
1) You enter a knife fight. The enemy chops throttle, kicks rudder and pulls hard to execute a tight turn.
2) You also chop throttle, kick a bit of rudder and pull hard.
3) clack! the slats pop out, momentary shake.
4) Ut-oh, your speed starts getting under 200mph. You can't use flaps yet, but you're so slow and unstable that you can't pull a tighter turn... so you ease the stick.
5) bap! the slats pop in back, another shake, and the excellent accelerations of the 109 backfires, and speeds your plane up.
6) So you chop throttle again, kick rudder again, and pull tighter again. Clack! Slats pop out again.
7) And then, almost immediately, 109 wants to stall out, you have to ease stick, and bap! they go in again, and you shake again.
8) repeat above
...
So it's a continuous procession of clack-bap-clack-bap-clak-bap, and shake shake shake shake all along the turn. Only when you can start to pop flaps, you can maintain an AoA high enough to hold the slats out and stabilize the plane that way... except by the time you start to use flaps you're probably outturned already.
...
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Well Eagler, it should affect "flight/aim = game" as you put it, not only do they come out very quickly thus creating a forward force on a small part of the wing, but they also affect the flight performance (that is why they were put there in the first plane) and creates more lift for the wing. Those two combined can make it quite unstable when they slam out. The real question is should they slaw out and in as if they hve gone crazy?
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Originally posted by Wilbus
http://freespace.virgin.net/john.dell/spitcom.htm
One link I foud quite quickly, it is not this link I was talking about before but here too they comment on the slats "throwing off the aim" of 109 pilots if they deployed in the critical moment.
It is IMO not weird that they would do that as they change the aerodynamics of the plane somewhat, and they deploy very fast and with a heavy bang and force, they should definatly affect the plane.
Thats with the E models. With the F model and upwards the automatic wing leading edge slats were much improved and they operated smoother.
But even so the issues with aiming had to do with aileron biting not that the slat opened with such force as to jolt the aircraft about in its yaw axis.
Here's what Eric Browns says
I was particularly interested in the operation of the slats, the action of which gave rise to aileron snatching in any high-G manoeuvres such as loops or tigh turns so I did a series of stalls to check their functioning more accurately. The stall with the aircraft clean, with half fuel load and the engine throttled right back occurred at 105 MPH (168 km/h). This was preceded by elevator buffet and opening the slats about 20 mph (30 km/h) above the stall, these being accompanied by the unpleasant aileron snatching as the slats opened unevenly. The stall itself was fairly gentle with the nose dropping and the port wing simultaneously dropping about 10 degrees.
- Eric Brown
Of course the slats opened unevenly, but the question I have is should they slam out wih such force as jolt the aircraft about on their own.
"Many new pilots thought that they were making hard turns, even when the slats were in. For us, the experienced pilots, real maneuvering started only after the slats came out. Because this it is possible to meet pilots who flew at this time (Battle of France, Battle of Britain) who claim, that the Spitfire turned better than the Messerschmitt (E). This is incorrect. I personally had many turning combats with the Spitfires and I could always turn better than them. I shot down six Spitfires this way. 109 lost this advantage when improved Spitfires appeared." - Erwin Leykauf, German fighter pilot, 33 victories. Source: Messerschmitt Bf109 ja Saksan Sotatalous, Hannu Valtonen.
Me 109 G:
"- How often did the slats in the leading edge of the wing slam open without warning?
They were exteneded always suddenly but not unexpectedly. They did not operate in high speed but in low speed. One could make them go out and in by moving the stick back and forth. When turning one slat functioned ahead of the other one, but that did not affect the steering. In a battle situation one could pull a little more if the slats had come out. They had a positive effect of the slow speed handling characteristics of the Messerschmitt.
- Could the pilot control the leading edge slats?
No. The slats were extended when the speed decreased enough, you could feel when they were extended. "
- Kyösti Karhila, Finnish fighter ace. 32 victories.
Source:
Interview by Finnish Virtual Pilots Association. (http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/WW2History-KyostiKarhilaEnglish.html)
I don't know the answer thats why I hoped to get a discussion going in the A and V forum.
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Wil, I think the problem is not with the speed that they are deployed. They're supposed to come out quickly, and indeed they react to changes in airflow and immediately start deploying when it is needed.
But however, these slats weren't spring mounted with lock mechanisms - they deployed immediately, but the whole deployment process itself was gradual.
If when the slats fully deploy when a certain point is reached, if that point is only half-reached the slats will also deploy only half.
However, AH slats go from none to full deployment instantly, and also full deployment to full retracted instantly. It should immediately start deploying when a certain point is reached, but reach full deployment as the AoA increases, not suddenly reach full deployment instantly - which, the sudden change of shakes the plane.
Did some pilots not like slat deployment because gradual deployment would give them the need to continuously compensate for the changes? Or did they not like it because the whole shaking was strong enough to stall your plane at the edge of the envelope?
My guess goes with the former, not the latter.
by looking at pilot testimonies Wotan posted, it would seem that it's logical to expect the E-4 to react in the current way, and the latter models to react in much more smoother, gradual fashion.
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It was a bug that crept in when HT made the fix in the aileron model. It'll be fixed in the next patch later today.
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Thanks Pyro....
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Thats a relief.
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Kwel
Kweassa, I never said pilots didn't like them :)
I said they sometimes popped out unexpecedly (spelling?) when a plane went into the slipstream of the enemy plane infront. It was described as shaking the plane somewhat and throwing off the aim.
For experienced pilots this posed NP if I remember correct.
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Originally posted by Pyro
It was a bug that crept in when HT made the fix in the aileron model. It'll be fixed in the next patch later today.
That's right... blame it on the boss !
heh heh...
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Originally posted by Pyro
It was a bug that crept in when HT made the fix in the aileron model. It'll be fixed in the next patch later today.
yay :aok
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Thanks Pyro, it's a relieve :)