Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: xrtoronto on June 13, 2004, 11:20:36 PM
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Former diplomats, retired military leaders to call for Bush ouster
Angered by Bush administration policies they contend endanger national security, 26 retired U.S. diplomats and military officers are urging Americans to vote President Bush out of office in November.
The group, which calls itself Diplomats and Military Commanders for Change, does not explicitly endorse Democrat John Kerry for president in its campaign, which will start officially Wednesday at a Washington news conference.
The Bush-Cheney campaign said Sunday it would have no response until the group formally issues its statement at the news conference.
Among the group are 20 ambassadors, appointed by both Democratic and Republican presidents, other former State Department officials and military leaders whose careers span three decades.
Prominent members include retired Marine Gen. Joseph P. Hoar, commander of U.S. forces in the Middle East during the administration of Bush's father; retired Adm. William J. Crowe Jr., ambassador to Britain under President Clinton and chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff under President Reagan; and Jack F. Matlock Jr., a member of the National Security Council under Reagan and ambassador to the Soviet Union from 1987 to 1991.
"We agreed that we had just lost confidence in the ability of the Bush administration to advocate for American interests or to provide the kind of leadership that we think is essential," said William C. Harrop, the first President Bush's ambassador to Israel, and earlier to four African countries.
"The group does not endorse Kerry, although it more or less goes without saying in the statement," Harrop said Sunday in a telephone interview.
Harrop said he listed himself as an independent for years for career purposes but usually has voted Republican.
The former ambassador said diplomats and military officials normally avoid making political statements, especially in an election year.
"Some of us are not that comfortable with it, but we just feel very strongly that the country needs new leadership," Harrop said.
He said the group was disillusioned by Bush's handling of the war in Iraq and a list of other subjects, including the Middle East, environmental conservation, AIDS policy, ethnic and religious conflict and weapons proliferation.
Source (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2004/06/13/politics1705EDT0539.DTL)
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What's your opinion of it? Or is this just a drive by?
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Let me add mine.
Bush Jr. as the worst President evah in history. It will be told. An aberation.
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Based on what criteria?
If it is based on war and economy, Lincoln must rate fairly low.
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Been in and out all weekend...first real time I've had to look at any news....I found this an interesting breaking story and wanted to share...particularly knowing that both camps will have opinions.
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Me and you will prolly be doing flight sims 20 years from now. Lets discuss it then. ;)
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Okay, I guess this is the thread for drive-by posts.
Here is one of mine:
I think that Gen. Francisco Franco had excellent taste in wardrobe.
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This kind of stuff is a big moral boost for our enemies.
WTG Diplomats and Military Commanders for Change
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r u ghey?
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That is just the most random though I could come up with on such short notice.
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same :)
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Originally posted by Nash
Let me add mine.
Bush Jr. as the worst President evah in history. It will be told. An aberation.
I thought Bill Clinton was the worst president?
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A call for voting for someone other than the incumbent? What's next, campaigning? Where will it all end, elections? The humanity!
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Originally posted by Steve
This kind of stuff is a big moral boost for our enemies.
WTG Diplomats and Military Commanders for Change
This guy appears to disagree with you.
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."
-- Theodore Roosevelt
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Originally posted by Rafe35
I thought Bill Clinton was the worst president?
His approval numbers were pretty good, IIRC.
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"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."
-- Theodore Roosevelt
Yah you GO dude!
Tell these whippersnappers who've got it all screwed up.
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Carter is probably the worst president ever.
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you'll both live long enough for you to eat those words.
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I just think these guys are confirming my opinion of Bush*. I don't think Kerry is a godsend by any means, but he looks like the only viable alternative. The Republicans should have offered an alternative candidate. Where is is written that a sitting President can't be challenged by his own party?
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To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."
This is exclusive of wartime. Traditionally, such criticism was curtailed during wartime. Of course, the dems are now such slime, the kind you find under a pile of dog crap that has been in the yard for a long time, that nothing is out of bounds for them.
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The Republicans should have offered an alternative candidate. Where is is written that a sitting President can't be challenged by his own party?
Bush is a good President, why should the repub challenge him. You're just too stupid to realize it. Thankfully, history will bear this out, even as you deny it.
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Hey xrtoronto*
(or strk* or anybody else* for that matter)
If it has been explained*, I missed the posting* explaining the significance of the asterisk* after bush*es name*
Can someone* enlighten me*?
If it is to seperate* GW* from GHW* then it is not needed in this* thread as GHW* is not in need of being ousted*, as he is retired*, so that must not be it*
Thanks* in advance
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Originally posted by Steve
This is exclusive of wartime. Traditionally, such criticism was curtailed during wartime. Of course, the dems are now such slime, the kind you find under a pile of dog crap that has been in the yard for a long time, that nothing is out of bounds for them.
Sorry to burst your NeoCon bubble Steve. Seems there are some FACTS you must be ignorant of.
The unpopular truth right now is that dissenters are in pretty good historical company. In 1917, President Woodrow Wilson (a Democrat) was re-elected on a platform that basically consisted of one promise: He would not send American troops to fight in World War I. About three months after the election, he did exactly that, and when the public expressed its outrage, he did everything he could to stifle it.
Never one to be silenced, ex-President Theodore Roosevelt stood up and said, "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."
We were at war with Mexico in 1848 when then-Congressman Abraham Lincoln voted to censure President James Polk, saying Mr. Polk's justification for the war was "from beginning to end the sheerest deception."
"Let him answer fully, fairly and candidly," Mr. Lincoln said, demanding answers from Mr. Polk. "Let him answer with facts and not with arguments. Let him attempt no evasion, no equivocation."
I offer the following deal to those who think my opposition to this war is unpatriotic, treasonous and deadly: I'll sit down and shut up when you can reasonably explain to me why the following quote was acceptable in its time:
"We can support the troops without supporting the president." -- Trent Lott, one of many Republican leaders and conservative pundits who railed against President Clinton in 1999 when he sent U.S. troops to stop the systematic slaughter of ethnic Albanians in Kosovo.
Democracy or hypocrisy?
You be the judge.
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(http://www.infomedi.it/img/twin_towers.jpg)
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Carter is probably the worst president ever.
If you had lived back then, you would have disliked him even more. My hatred towards him has subsided over the years. I mean, he is a good hearted man who means well, and in the eyes of God(if you believe), will have a place in heaven before me. But when he stood and did nothing as Iran held American hostages, my blood boiled with disdain towards him.
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Sorry Eagler.
Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11. (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/03/19/60minutes/main607356.shtml)
(http://www.infomedi.it/img/twin_towers.jpg) = (http://www.worldpress.org/images/osama.jpg)
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Originally posted by Eagler
(http://www.infomedi.it/img/twin_towers.jpg)
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=3&u=/ap/20040614/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/powell_terror_report
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yeah, i believe/trust bush hating clark - LOL
Bush 2004, get used to it :)
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Originally posted by rpm371
Sorry Eagler.
Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11.
Eagler made no mention of Saddam.
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What does the photo of the World Trade Center terrorist attack have to do with any part of this topic? Is there some connection to the Iraq invasion that you have secret information about that the rest of the human race on this planet does not?
The 'war against terrorism' (which I support 100%) has been a failure.
Instead of focusing on curtailing terrorism through cooperative efforts world-wide, this administration has so far misspent over $1200 per American family invading a country that had nothing to do with the WTC tragedy; created more terrorists with a rallying call and a cause; caused the deaths of thousands of innocent people; the deaths of hundreds of U.S. servicemembers; brought horrible injuries to almost ten thousand people; tortured hundreds who were held without cause or reason; alienated and disillusioned most of the world and their image of America and what it is was supposed to stand for and allowed a zealot Attorney General with a religeous agenda (The "Rapture") to sneak away with your basic, constitution-based freedoms like a thief in the night.
Other than that, they've done a pretty good job.
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Jimmeh Catah was the best prez EVAH!
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Originally posted by Eagler
yeah, i believe/trust bush hating clark - LOL
Bush 2004, get used to it :)
Want a different source?
Here you go. (http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/8089829.htm)
Doubts cast on efforts to link Saddam, al-Qaida
By Warren P. Strobel, Jonathan S. Landay and John Walcott
Knight Ridder Newspapers
WASHINGTON - The Bush administration's claim that Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein had ties to al-Qaida - one of the administration's central arguments for a pre-emptive war - appears to have been based on even less solid intelligence than the administration's claims that Iraq had hidden stocks of chemical and biological weapons.
Nearly a year after U.S. and British troops invaded Iraq, no evidence has turned up to verify allegations of Saddam's links with al-Qaida, and several key parts of the administration's case have either proved false or seem increasingly doubtful.
Senior U.S. officials now say there never was any evidence that Saddam's secular police state and Osama bin Laden's Islamic terrorism network were in league. At most, there were occasional meetings.
Moreover, the U.S. intelligence community never concluded that those meetings produced an operational relationship, American officials said. That verdict was in a secret report by the CIA's Directorate of Intelligence that was updated in January 2003, on the eve of the war.
"We could find no provable connection between Saddam and al-Qaida," a senior U.S. official acknowledged. He and others spoke on condition of anonymity because the information involved is classified and could prove embarrassing to the White House.
Holden, he's trying to use 9/11 to justify the mess Bush has made in Iraq. I simply point out the fact Iraq was not part of the War on Terror the American people approve to get those responsable for 9/11.
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Excellent quote Thrawn! BTW im not so new on this board, but sometimes ignorant for certain.. 8)
It would be hard to sum up America's situation better than Rolex has. I doubt that I could, anyway.. I would imagine that most of these Diplomats and ex-military folk banding together have very similar arguments against Bush..
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Excellent post Rolex!
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Iraq was a good move - i t has our military fighting the enemy in the open as it should be rather than our civilians dying in our subways and skyscapers
as for the 9/11 ref, it gave Bush a pass on ANYTHING stated before that day concerning his admin and their pre-9/11 plans on running this country
do you REALLY think skerry kerry is a better leader or it your hatred so blind you'd vote Larry Flynt in if the polls showed he'd beat Bush?
sad sacks many of you ...
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So did Mick Jagger pipe Maggie Trudeau or not? :rofl
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Originally posted by storch
So did Mick Jagger pipe Maggie Trudeau or not? :rofl
wouldn't you?
(http://www.collectionscanada.ca/obj/h4/f1/142-v1.jpg)
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Originally posted by Rolex
The 'war against terrorism' (which I support 100%) has been a failure.
Name 2 attacks on that have occcured since 9/11 on American Soil. Some failure, huh?
Instead of focusing on curtailing terrorism through cooperative efforts world-wide, this administration has so far misspent over $1200 per American family invading a country that had nothing to do with the WTC tragedy
We Tried being Cooperative. Remember the whole UN thing? Everyone else wanted to sit on thier hands and wait for the next bomb to go off. We took out Hitler in 1938 here.
; created more terrorists with a rallying call and a cause;
Does fighting crime create more criminals? Maybe we should disband out police forces too. PLus, with Iraq, we are fighting the Jihad All Star Team on their Turf, NOT OURS.
caused the deaths of thousands of innocent people;
You sure you're not looking at a picture of a Saddam Era Mass Grave?
tortured hundreds who were held without cause or reason;
You've got to be kidding me? You are a victim of the media, my friend.
alienated and disillusioned most of the world and their image of America and what it is was supposed to stand for
What the world thinks is best for America..never is.
and allowed a zealot Attorney General with a religeous agenda (The "Rapture") to sneak away with your basic, constitution-based freedoms like a thief in the night.
If you lost your freedoms, how are you able to type all these terrible things about the government and not get arrested? Better go hide in the rainforest.
Rolex,
That post could be the Liberal Democrat Manifesto, and almost every word of it is completey wrong.
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Holy ****, I just saw a commercial for Coco Puffs. I had no idea they still made those.
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Originally posted by Sixpence
But when he stood and did nothing as Iran held American hostages, my blood boiled with disdain towards him.
He sent a rescue mission, our military screwed it up.
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Originally posted by -MZ-
He sent a rescue mission, our military screwed it up.
It was screwed up but he was the head of the military. Also, he may have dictated the size of the rescue force which was much too small imo. And just because there was a setback was no reason to then sit on his hands and do nothing.
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
Holy ****, I just saw a commercial for Coco Puffs. I had no idea they still made those.
I'm cuckoo for coco puffs!:)
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Originally posted by -MZ-
He sent a rescue mission, our military screwed it up.
Really. Pray tell how you decided that it was the military that screwed it up?
First, tell me what a cakewalk it should have been, flying into a hostile country without being discovered, refueling at an unimproved piece of desert..... you know, tell me how YOU would have done it successfully under the same circumstances and political restrictions.
Thanks in advance.
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WTG muck. I really wanted to waste my time exposing rolex as a tool like you did but decided against it. Still...I enjoyed reading your rebuttal. I agree with all of your points.
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Originally posted by Yeager
Jimmeh Catah was the best prez EVAH!
Troll.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Hey xrtoronto*
(or strk* or anybody else* for that matter)
If it has been explained*, I missed the posting* explaining the significance of the asterisk* after bush*es name*
Can someone* enlighten me*?
If it is to seperate* GW* from GHW* then it is not needed in this* thread as GHW* is not in need of being ousted*, as he is retired*, so that must not be it*
Thanks* in advance
I saw others use it before me when mentioning Bush*...I instinctively associated it with this (_*_)
:D
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Hindsight is 20/20 so they say.
The mission went south due to unexpected weather. Where I think the planning failed was in not having enough contingencies.
Anyhow, Iran invaded the sovereign nation of the United States when they invaded the US embassy there. If we had acted forcefully and decisively then, who knows what we might have been spared later?
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diplomats.... now that is funny... might as well be the mickey mouse club.
lazs
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Iron, the military could have used the "Sandstorm Removal Device" during the refueling. Clearly a military omission.
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Originally posted by muckmaw
Originally posted by Rolex
The 'war against terrorism' (which I support 100%) has been a failure.
Name 2 attacks on that have occcured since 9/11 on American Soil. Some failure, huh?
LOL, Can you name two foreign attacks on American soil that happened BEFORE 9/11? I'll even start. The WTC bombing. Bet ya can't name another. So I guess based on that the war was unnecessary, huh?
Instead of focusing on curtailing terrorism through cooperative efforts world-wide, this administration has so far misspent over $1200 per American family invading a country that had nothing to do with the WTC tragedy
We Tried being Cooperative. Remember the whole UN thing? Everyone else wanted to sit on thier hands and wait for the next bomb to go off. We took out Hitler in 1938 here.
No, actually, we had troops in place and we either needed to strike or withdraw. Don't you remember? We didn't "try to be cooperative" it was on our own hook.
; created more terrorists with a rallying call and a cause;
Does fighting crime create more criminals? Maybe we should disband out police forces too. PLus, with Iraq, we are fighting the Jihad All Star Team on their Turf, NOT OURS.[/b]
OOOh! Straw Man alert! Abusing a populace tends to make one unpopular and causes sections of said populace to rebel. Nothing to do w/ "crime" or "Jihad All Star Team," whatever that is.
caused the deaths of thousands of innocent people;
You sure you're not looking at a picture of a Saddam Era Mass Grave?
No, he's looking at the amount of Iraqi civilians killed during the invasion.
tortured hundreds who were held without cause or reason;
You've got to be kidding me? You are a victim of the media, my friend.
So the reports and pictures of abuse at the prison were false? The recent release of HUNDREDS from the prison incorrect? Sounds like you're a victim of "head in the sand" syndrome.
alienated and disillusioned most of the world and their image of America and what it is was supposed to stand for
What the world thinks is best for America..never is.
Here, we agree. However, that does not answer his statement. The image of America has always been associated with "right" and "morality" and "fair"--none of these traits were shown during the invasion. Only the agenda of an incompetent President. (Yoda) Besmirched, our reputation is.
and allowed a zealot Attorney General with a religeous agenda (The "Rapture") to sneak away with your basic, constitution-based freedoms like a thief in the night.
If you lost your freedoms, how are you able to type all these terrible things about the government and not get arrested? Better go hide in the rainforest.
Never read the Patriot Act I see. Not to worry though, you aren't alone. Now law enforcement can now go through your medical and financial records on a whim, no court order, nothing but just casual suspicion--and as a bonus, release that info freely to other arms of the Gov't. Kiss your privacy goodbye.
Rolex,
That post could be the Liberal Democrat Manifesto, and almost every word of it is completey wrong.
And yours could be the post of an unthinking right-wing Republican who accepts everything he's told.
Sad.
h
Don't think! Vote Bush!
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Toad, they could have had more than one team ready to go in and they certainly should have considered weather.
What I really think should have been done was that Carter should have convinced the new Iranian leaders that there would be hell to pay if they didn't release the hostages immediately. He may have tried to do this, I dunno. All I know for sure is that he failed.
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Originally posted by muckmaw
Originally posted by Rolex
The 'war against terrorism' (which I support 100%) has been a failure.
Name 2 attacks on that have occcured since 9/11 on American Soil. Some failure, huh?
Name 2 attacks which have occured 4 years prior to 9/11 on American Soil.
I can't recall any other "terrorist" attacks on american soil prior to 9/11 than some ahmeds trying to blow WTC with a car bomb and that okhaloma bomber, which happened to be a local terrorist, unarguably without links to middle east nuts.
Do you realise the terrorist just doesn't do attacks every year on US soil?
It can take few years.. it's way too early to defend Bush policies.. especially when there hasn't even been elections yet...
Why dont you just go ahead and list all the attacks done abroad against US interests, you wouldn't see a big difference.
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
Holy ****, I just saw a commercial for Coco Puffs. I had no idea they still made those.
Coco Puffs?? I'm cuckoo for coco puffs!!
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Desert One (http://www.af.mil/news/airman/0401/hostage.html)
Pretty good description. I'm not sure that at that time we had enough Special Ops for backups.
And then there's this "bottom line":
“This mission required a lot of things we had never done before,” said retired Col. (then-Capt.) Bob Brenci, the lead C-130 pilot on the mission. “We were literally making it up as we went along.”
Flying using night-vision goggles was almost unheard of. There was no capability, or for that matter, a need, to refuel helicopters at remote, inaccessible landing zones. All these skills and procedures would be tested and honed for this mission.
“These capabilities are routine now for special operators, but at the time we were right there on the edge of the envelope,” said retired Col. (then-Capt.) George Ferkes, Brenci’s co-pilot.
So, do we castigate them for trying to do something that had never been tried, with untested equipment, something on "the edge of the envelope" for the time?
I'd rather salute them for trying and doing there best under near impossible circumstances.
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You know what they say Toad, one oh sh** wipes out ten attaboys.
I've never really felt too critical towards the military for their failure in this (I was in the AF at time afterall). But I have always been sore that Carter wasn't effective in dealing with Iran. A big reason why I voted for Reagan over him.
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Yeah, I was in then as well.
IIRC, this thing was planned with a lot of political restrictions as well.
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Originally posted by Steve
This is exclusive of wartime. Traditionally, such criticism was curtailed during wartime. Of course, the dems are now such slime, the kind you find under a pile of dog crap that has been in the yard for a long time, that nothing is out of bounds for them.
No one knows better than steve what slime lies underneath dog crap. it's practically his mailing address...
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Originally posted by Toad
Really. Pray tell how you decided that it was the military that screwed it up?
First, tell me what a cakewalk it should have been, flying into a hostile country without being discovered, refueling at an unimproved piece of desert..... you know, tell me how YOU would have done it successfully under the same circumstances and political restrictions.
What political restrictions? That every single armed service had to get its own little piece of the action? The interservice rivalry caused so many problems for this mission that Congress ended up reorganizing the whole JCS.
The Isrealis told them to bring in 40 choppers, American generals said, no we only need 8. They couldn't get the right weather report, they hadn't practiced in the right conditions, etc.
Everyone knew it would be a tough mission. Carter only authorized it, he didn't dictate the operation.
Maybe he just should have made a deal with the Ayatollah like Reagan did later.
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Originally posted by -MZ-
Maybe he just should have made a deal with the Ayatollah like Reagan did later.
I would have preferred a show of force. Maybe even a nuke "test" near Tehran. I bet they couldn't have given up the hotages quick enough after seeing a few square miles of sand turned into glass.
Oh yeah, forgot that Amy told her Dad that nukes were bad. ;)
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IIRC the size/number of forces restrictions came from the political side.
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Originally posted by lazs2
diplomats.... now that is funny... might as well be the mickey mouse club.
lazs
BINGO!
Wow.... it took almost the whole first page of this thread before someone actually resorted to denouncing them as a way to invalidate their opinion.
So... the guys that had to talk to the rest of the world or kill them really don't have a clue about what makes a good leader?
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Originally posted by AKIron
I would have preferred a show of force. Maybe even a nuke "test" near Tehran. I bet they couldn't have given up the hotages quick enough after seeing a few square miles of sand turned into glass.
Iron, has anyone ever explained to you the perils of playing with fire??
Good gawd man, how could a rational human being be serious in suggesting such a thing.. Do you believe the rest of the world would sit quietly by whilst we condoned and set into action the WORLD's most horrific ending?? I can only say WOW! It's totally one thing to joke about it, but actually consider dropping nukes? I am ashamed to realize that you have not suffered enough in your lifetime. Worry not though, karma catches us all..
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Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
Iron, has anyone ever explained to you the perils of playing with fire??
Good gawd man, how could a rational human being be serious in suggesting such a thing.. Do you believe the rest of the world would sit quietly by whilst we condoned and set into action the WORLD's most horrific ending?? I can only say WOW! It's totally one thing to joke about it, but actually consider dropping nukes? I am ashamed to realize that you have not suffered enough in your lifetime. Worry not though, karma catches us all..
Amy? Is that you? ;)
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How'd you guess? ;)
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Unfortunately, muckmaw and yeager, your assumptions are incorrect - I'm neither a liberal, nor a Democrat. I am a person who changed his mind about the current administration.
When I look at a balance sheet or P&L in business, I look below the surface and try to keep open to change because internal and external conditions are always changing. What seems right today, may not be right tomorrow, and so it is in the world-at-large.
I am not stuck in my current opinion by emotion. Being stuck is easy. Having the courage to change one's mind is hard.
I won't parse your parse, muckmaw, since you appear to be an unarmed man in a battle of wits and I'm not compelled to try to change your mind.
Sincerely,
Rolex (The Tool)
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Originally posted by Rolex
muckmaw, since you appear to be an unarmed man in a battle of wits
Wow, did you write that line all by yourself?
:rofl :aok
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You liked it? :) You're welcome to use it (for a small royalty payment...)
Cheers,
Rolex (The Tool)
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Geeze man, find a backbone and stick with your commitment.
I made a commitment and thru hell I will stick with it on principle, barring undeniable irrefutable proof of massive intentional wrongdoing by the government. I have not seen any evidence to motivate my abandoning my commitment nor have I been swayed by the politics of an election year.
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Originally posted by Rolex
You liked it? :) You're welcome to use it (for a small royalty payment...)
Cheers,
Rolex (The Tool)
I liked it 27 years ago in the 3rd grade too!
How much?:aok
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And now we know that you still have a few years to go until wisdom might actually have a fighting chance against your hubris.
And yeager, you underestimate me. I have total and unflappable commitment to the simple elegance of the U.S. Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. I will not bend to unpatriotic attempts to manipulate and circumvent it, or to those who support such treachery.
It is the duty of those who enjoy the fruits of America to be eternally vigilant and hold those who temporarily govern accountable. I like that principle.
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Originally posted by Sixpence
If you had lived back then, you would have disliked him even more. My hatred towards him has subsided over the years. I mean, he is a good hearted man who means well, and in the eyes of God(if you believe), will have a place in heaven before me. But when he stood and did nothing as Iran held American hostages, my blood boiled with disdain towards him.
I dont hate him at all and I dont even dislike him. In fact I like him and I think he is a very decent person. But I dont think he he did a very good job as president.
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I thought Bill Clinton was the worst president
He was a good president I thought but perhaps too democratic. I could care less about the Lewenski thing, I mean being a guy I know how that can be. Reagan was the perfect republican though. I liked reagan alot.
If you had lived back then, you would have disliked him even more. My hatred towards him has subsided over the years. I mean, he is a good hearted man who means well, and in the eyes of God(if you believe), will have a place in heaven before me. But when he stood and did nothing as Iran held American hostages, my blood boiled with disdain towards him.
I always thought that Carter did try to do something about the hostages.
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Originally posted by Rolex
And now we know that you still have a few years to go until wisdom might actually have a fighting chance against your hubris.
And yeager, you underestimate me. I have total and unflappable commitment to the simple elegance of the U.S. Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. I will not bend to unpatriotic attempts to manipulate and circumvent it, or to those who support such treachery.
It is the duty of those who enjoy the fruits of America to be eternally vigilant and hold those who temporarily govern accountable. I like that principle.
But it comes down to choice doesn't it? Lamentably the candidate from one of the major parties will win. Any other vote is a vote for one of the major party candidates. Who's hand do you want at the helm?
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Originally posted by MrCoffee
He was a good president I thought but perhaps too democratic. I could care less about the Lewenski thing, I mean being a guy I know how that can be. Reagan was the perfect republican though. I liked reagan alot.
I always thought that Carter did try to do something about the hostages.
I served my four years of active service during the Carter years. That pretty much made me a Republican for life at age 20.
He should have started habitat for humanity in 1976 and stayed out of Presidential politics. The man was a walking disaster as far as I'm concerned. Billy Jeff was even worse than Carter, a redneck beer can dweller selling used cars to the mentally challenged with a shrew in his bed. One could hardly blame him for his indiscretions but his choice of getting his nob slobbed in the oval office speaks volumes. A totally irreverant and honorless individual, the poster boy for liberalism.
So back to the topic, Coco puffs!!!! too much sugar.
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hmmm..... I don't know about that.
I wouldn't mind getting my nob slobbed in the oval office. And if i had the chance.... I would! :D
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Originally posted by mosgood
hmmm..... I don't know about that.
I wouldn't mind getting my nob slobbed in the oval office. And if i had the chance.... I would! :D
Vote for Kerry 10,000 times and get a receipt maybe he'll let you try it once.
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uhhh..... ok :confused:
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Originally posted by Yeager
Geeze man, find a backbone and stick with your commitment.
"Display some adaptability." -- Doug Shaftoe, Cryptonomicon
I have not seen any evidence to motivate my abandoning my commitment nor have I been swayed by the politics of an election year.
Right. So because you feel that changing you mind would be "abandoning a commitment" cognitive dissonce would prevent you from seeing evidence in from an objective point of view. ;)
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carter did not start habitat for humanity. when it started it was a good thing... now that government has gotten involved it is going downhill with it's new more "liberal" standards for who get's a home..
used to be that you had to be married and both work even if it was minimum wage and you had to put so many hours on yours or someone elses house even if it was just scrapping out lots....
The government is now helping with the funding and has stipulated that it was unfair to not allow single welfare moms who felt that it was demeaning to work on a house to be denied from the program.
lazs
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speaking of that.....
we had a 23 yr old, single mom with 2 babies working here for about a year. She practically did her nails all day instead of her job. She was given the choice of shaping up or shipping out... she came back the next day and said she wanted more money or she was leaving.. We said, austa la vista baby...
we just got the welfare papers yesterday......
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Originally posted by mosgood
speaking of that.....
we had a 23 yr old, single mom with 2 babies working here for about a year. She practically did her nails all day instead of her job. She was given the choice of shaping up or shipping out... she came back the next day and said she wanted more money or she was leaving.. We said, austa la vista baby...
we just got the welfare papers yesterday......
Amazing but I believe it.
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Originally posted by mosgood
speaking of that.....
we had a 23 yr old, single mom with 2 babies working here for about a year. She practically did her nails all day instead of her job. She was given the choice of shaping up or shipping out... she came back the next day and said she wanted more money or she was leaving.. We said, austa la vista baby...
we just got the welfare papers yesterday......
wonder who she'd vote for - LOL
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Kerry* no doubt
nice thread xrtoronto*