Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Shuckins on June 14, 2004, 11:20:41 AM
-
...would be?
My guess would be David McCampbell, although I have no data to back it up. He scored 34 victories on a single tour, but I do not know how many missions he flew.
Anybody have any sources on this? Kills per sortie would be a better indicator, at least in my opinion, of individual pilot skill.
But what do I know!?
Regards, Shuckins/Leggern
-
I don't think you can use kills per sortie as a means to judge relative pilot skill among the aces. You'd probably end up measuring opportunities a lot more than skill by that yardstick. You can't shoot down what isn't there. Ralph Parr showed himself to be a skilled combat pilot in the Korean War, but he also flew P-38s at the end of WWII. He never saw a Japanese plane on any of his missions.
The guy with the highest kills per sortie is probably someone who went out and shot down 2 or 3 planes on his first sortie and was killed in the process.
Ignoring the guys with too few sorties for a meaningful sample size, I would guess the WWII pilot with the most kills per sortie is Willi Batz.
-
Günther Scheel: 70 missions, 71 victories :)
-
Originally posted by Meyer
Günther Scheel: 70 missions, 71 victories :)
George S. Welch: 5 engagements, 16 kills, four probables, 3 damaged.
4 in P-40B (at Pearl Harbor)
3 in P-39D
9 in P-38G
Shot down 4 twice, never shot down less than two in any engagement.
Sent home with severe malaria, never returned. Some said he would have beaten Bong... If he had more opportunities and if he hadn't gotten ill. When he had opportunities, he made the most of them.
My regards,
Widewing
-
hmm, so welch was the man eh? I always wondered what happened to him after p/h. Figured he got backwatered at a training command.
Good info w/w!
-
Well Pyro, even if Batz downed 15 enemy aircraft on 31 May 1944, those kills were spread over 7 different missions that day.
I would nominate H.J. Marseille, scoring 8 victories (P-40s) of his 17 total that day in one large engagement on September 1st 1942.
-
Rather than scores per sortie, a better, though still not completely valid messure of pilot skill would be kills per scoring opportunity.
-
Define scoring opportunity...
Any time an enemy is sited?
Thats no more valid then kills per sortie...
-
Erich Rudorrfer must be up there, had 13 kills in one sortie in his FW190A, thats single sortie record I believe
-
Rasker,
While such a feat is certainly possible, I always take Luftwaffe kill claims with a grain of salt. When one reads these claims one must also consider their source; Adolf Hitler's Third Reich, with it's cult of the uber-mensch.
As an example, Hans Joachim Marseille is considered the most successful Luftwaffe pilot to fly and fight in the North African theater. According to Martin Caidin (Admittedly, not the most reliable of sources himself.) on one particular day Marseille claimed 8 victories against British fighters. British combat loss records for that date show losses of only four fighters, including Hurricanes I believe, a type which Marseille did not even claim.
Regards, Shuckins/Leggern
-
Originally posted by Widewing
George S. Welch: 5 engagements, 16 kills, four probables, 3 damaged.
4 in P-40B (at Pearl Harbor)
3 in P-39D
9 in P-38G
Shot down 4 twice, never shot down less than two in any engagement.
Sent home with severe malaria, never returned. Some said he would have beaten Bong... If he had more opportunities and if he hadn't gotten ill. When he had opportunities, he made the most of them.
My regards,
Widewing
Thats is kill/engagements, no kill/sorties. Welch flew more combat missions, but w/o engagements.
-
Originally posted by Orka
Thats is kill/engagements, no kill/sorties. Welch flew more combat missions, but w/o engagements.
So, Scheel is still the man ;)
-
Originally posted by Orka
Thats is kill/engagements, no kill/sorties. Welch flew more combat missions, but w/o engagements.
Welch was one of the more interesting characters in American aviation history. After flying 47 patrol missions from Pearl Harbor, he was sent home for the standard hero war bond tour. When he returned to Wheeler field, he resumed flying worthless patrols. Finally, Got his chance for some more combat when we was transferred and reported to the 36th Fighter Squadron of the 8th Fighter Group in New Guinea. The good news was that this squadron had been seeing combat. The bad news was that is was flying the hopeless Bell P-39 Airacobra. Welch found himself flying mostly ground support missions, this being largely due to the P-39’s poor combat performance and its limited range. Welch did not view the lack of performance at altitude as the primary sin of the P-39. What truly turned Welch against the Airacobra was its limited combat radius. With the majority of air to air engagements were being fought beyond the reach of the Bell and opportunities to shoot down more Japanese were nearly nonexistant. Naturally Welch noted that there were squadrons on his base that were flying the P-38G Lightning. Now, here was a fighter! Fast, long ranging and equally important, its twin Allison engines were turbosupercharged. This allowed the P-38 to climb higher and faster than the P-39. It was everything Welch wanted and the performance of the P-38 was reflected in the tally of Japanese aircraft being shot down. George wanted the Lightning, he wanted it badly and cornered his group commander and inquired as to when 36th could expect to get the P-38. The answer was: “When we run out of P-39s.” That was all Welch and the pilots of 36th needed to hear. Virtually any problem encountered in flight (real or imaginary) resulted in a bailout from that day forward. The operational loss rate climbed dramatically. Welch found himself in hot water with the Group commander, who pointed out that George had been very successful in the P-39. Hadn’t he shot down two Vals and a Zero on the one-year anniversary of the Pearl Harbor attack? That didn’t deter Welch, who knew he could have splashed a hell of a lot more if he’d been flying the Lightning. Finally, the Brass gave into Welch’s repeated requests and transferred him across the field to 80th Fighter Squadron. At last, George had his P-38, and he made the most of it despite flying many escort missions where the Japanese didn't come up to fight.
(http://home.att.net/~historyzone/P-39d5.JPG)
On June 21, 1943, he destroyed two Zeros and probably killed a third (was observed to spin into undercast on fire) over Lae. On his next encounter, Welch downed three Ki-61 Tony fighters near Wewak. Promoted to Captain, Welch was moved to 8th Fighter Group Headquarters. His biggest day since Pearl Harbor came when he killed three more Zeros and a "Dinah" twin-engine fighter.
Several former squadronmates claim that Welch would not put in claims for single aircraft shot down, but would assign them to other pilots. His former wingman believed that Welch actually shot down 22 Japanese. Whether that is true of not is unknown. However, its not out of character for Welch.
Shortly thereafter, deathly ill with malaria, he was shipped out to a hospital in Australia. He never returned to combat. He finshed the war with an official tally of 16 kills, 3 probables and 2 damaged.
He flew about 140 ground attack missions, patrols and deep escort missions. He rarely encountered Japanese aircraft. But, when he did meet them, they were soundly abused.
Hundreds of pilots flew many sorties and never ran into enemy aircraft, yet others always seemed to find plenty of action. It really depended where you operated and what you were flying.
When the 9th squadron of the 49th FG received P-47s to replace their worn out P-38Gs, the frequency of combat dropped to almost nothing. The P-47 lacked the P-38's range and simply couldn't get to where the enemy was. Once they they swapped their Jugs and P-40s for P-38Js, things reversed and the 49th ran up the highest scores in the Pacific.
Back to Welch....
Welch was hired as a test pilot for North American Aviation in 1944 (with a good word from an admiring Hap Arnold) and set the Air Force on its ear on October 1, 1947 when he upstaged Bell'S X-1 and Yeager by diving the P-86 prototype thru Mach 1 two weeks before Yeager did it in level flight. While this has been disputed by some, including the USAF's historian (Dr. Hallion, who managed to completely screw up the time line he used for his rebuttal), the general concensus among the flight test community is that Welch was indeed first, and second (he did it twice before Yeager) with Yeager making the third flight to exceed Mach one. Welch's escapades were in violation of standing orders that North American not steal the X-1's (actually called the XS-1 at the time) thunder and put the entire research program at risk. It may have been hard to justify the X-1's budget when a production prototype could break the "sound barrier". So, North American and the Secretary of the Air Force agreed to keep Welch's forays under wraps until after the X-1 had made it's record flight. Officially, NACA clocked the XP-86 at Mach 1.02 in November of 1947, and announced it in April of 1948. So, it was certainly Mach one capable in October.
In 1953, Welch took up the YF-100 (there was no XF-100) on its maiden flight, and promptly flew it thru Mach one in level flight. Making him the first man to go supersonic in level flight in an air breathing aircraft.
Welch died a year later when the F-100A he was testing came apart in flight. He flew the demonstration despite being warned by Yeager that the F-100A was dangerously unstable. All were later grounded and a redesigned vertical stabilizer installed. Welch was far too reckless for Yeager's tastes. Yeager was far more self-disciplined than Welch. Still, he liked the unassuming and modest Welch and was deeply hurt by his death.
My regards,
Widewing