Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Maniac on March 30, 2000, 12:59:00 AM
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Hi there.
Djust curious here, since pyro found that the bullets suffers from twice as much G-forces as they should, what will the results be from setting the 'correct' G-forces for the bullets?
Obviously the bullet 'drop' will be less, so long range shooting should be an bit easyer right?
This is an straight up question to HTC, will it be easyer to get long range kills then today? and are _all_ different bullets/cannons affected by this?
I know we all here on the board want more specifics on this matter. . .
Regards.
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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-
(http://www.rsaf.org/osf/images/osf_inga.gif)
http://www.rsaf.org/osf/ (http://www.rsaf.org/osf/)
[This message has been edited by Maniac (edited 03-30-2000).]
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Punt
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Let's test it 1st shall we (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Saw/Saintaw
=XO=III/JG2~Richthofen~
GMT T.O.D. SITE (http://www.wardogs.org/ah/)
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/dorasaint.gif)
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
Don't shoot ! I am only an observer......
[This message has been edited by Saintaw (edited 03-30-2000).]
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Saw this is not beta anymore, HTC should not have to have us test it first, they should be able to answer the questions i asked above with ease. . .
Regards.
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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-
(http://www.rsaf.org/osf/images/osf_inga.gif)
http://www.rsaf.org/osf/ (http://www.rsaf.org/osf/)
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I agree 100%, Maniac...or Long range shooting is somehow turned down, or I'll again begin to think in dropping my account.
If I am going to die from 2.0K i'd rather go hunting rats
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No RAM, stay with game pls, it will be borring to fly without your comments on the channel 1 <G>.
Do not worry, lethality shall stay same. Deflective will be easier, and those who still aproach buffs on their level 6oc will suffer even more... Probably will take some time to get used to new models, so accuracy may even fall first week, but then you will forget that this change was ever made.
One thing which I want to know if acks will fire twice higher? With new gravity they shall, so I imagine that lazer-guided acks killing us at 16k <G>
Fariz
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Fariz,
U are of course right about lethality being the same, but with reduced bullet drop it should be easier to hit at long ranges, and this should result in more long distance kills then we see now. . .
Regards.
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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-
(http://www.rsaf.org/osf/images/osf_inga.gif)
http://www.rsaf.org/osf/ (http://www.rsaf.org/osf/)
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U are of course right about lethality being the same, but with reduced bullet drop it should be easier to hit at long ranges, and this should result in more long distance kills then we see now. . .
Hmm...Im not so sure Maniac. The change in gravity will only affect the bullet impact point and will require a change in aim. I dont think they said anything about changing the amount of round dispersion or ballistic energy for each shell.
I think this will be a minor change for all of us. You wont have to lob shells as high to hit distant targets. Besides anyone who takes shots from 800+ walks the bullets into the target anyway. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-Ding
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I'm not a physics major but it seems the change might do one or more of several things.
1) Affect aiming only -- the bullets will not drop as much, requiring less leading for farther-out targets.
2) Affect aiming and actual hits.
3) Affect hits. It seems like if there is double gravity on the bullets, then the actual speed/velocity of the bullets are also currently being affected by this double gravity. Therefore if you halve the gravity on the bullets, it seems they will reach further if I aim the same way I do now. If they reach further then won't they be travelling faster? With less gravity on the bullet, it seems to me that not only will it travel further but it will be travelling faster than it is today.
I'm trying to come up with an example that makes this clear. Let me try.
I currently start shooting at d1.2. I need to lead my target a bit in order to score some hits.
With the change, I no longer need to lead my target as much to score the hits from that distance. Since I no longer need to lead the target so much, wouldn't it be true that my bullets are flying faster (less arch required) and thus have a little more impact when hitting, when shooting from the dame distance as now?
The d1.2 is example only. Physics majors are invited to reply. Possibly the double gravity does not affect velocity.
Like I said I'm not a physics major. I think it will be #2 above.
Fury
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This one is too important to be just ignored by the designers. Please ?
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From an old physics class I remember that if you fire a level rifle and at the same instant drop an identical projectile from the same height, both projectiles will hit the ground at the same instant.
Gravity acts on both projectiles in exactly the same way.
One, however, lands at your feet, the other one lands 2 or 3K away, depending on the round in question.
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<<<it seems to me that not only will it travel further but it
will be travelling faster than it is today.>>>
I ain't no fizics major but I'll speculate about the effects of gravity on bullet speed.
With gravity being cut in half, bullets on an upward trajectory will decellerate more gradually, bullets on a downward trajectory will decellerate more quickly. Bullets on a horizontal trajectory will have no speed differences with 1/2 gravity. The effect on speed overall will probably be very slight.
What worries me is the effect on long range shooting which is already pretty easy. I wish HTC would revisit the entire gunnery model and make sure all significant ballistic criteria have been taken accurrately into consideration. If we've had double gravity up till now, what other problems might there be?
ra
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Originally posted by Fury:
With less gravity on the bullet, it seems to me that not only will it travel further but it will be travelling faster than it is today.
Fury,
Bullet would not travel faster. It will fly in a more straight pattern. What this means is when you taking snapshot, you won't have to lead target as much as you do now. Now when you shooting at distand targets, things will be more or less the same as now - bullet speed stays the same, so you still end up with spraying around in hope that you'll hit the target.
I don't understand why people are so scared of this change affecting long distance shooting. You still have to lead (not as much as now, but you still do lead) target at distance and if he's not flying straight you will end up wasting a lot of your ammo in hope of scoring few hits.
mx22
[This message has been edited by mx22 (edited 03-30-2000).]
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Toad, ra, and mx....those all sound like valid comments and do ring some sort of bell with me (seeing I took physics about 20 years ago it's a very dim bell).
At the risk of being flamed for changing the subject I'd like to try one more example.
Lets say my bullet starts to feel the effect of gravity at d600 -- so it begins to arc downward. It seems to me that the act of arcing downward would have some affect on the lethality of the bullet if I were to shoot from d700 with a slight lead, because the bullet has already begun the downward arc.
Now if the gravity is currently two-fold, then it might be safe to assume that now my bullet will not start it's downward arc (gravity will not affect it) until d1.2. If I shoot at the same d700 target, my bullet will now still be travelling without the affects of gravity pulling it down into an arc. What I made out of this example was that now there would be much less lead readuired to shoot, and also since my bullet will not begin it's arc until well past the target, the hits would be more lethal.
That's where I was coming from. Possibly the effects of gravity are so small that the actual lethality is not affected at all, and possibly I am all wet. Also I possibly should get back to work (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Sorry for changing the subject here, if anyone from HTC can shed light like has been requested that would be swell.
Fury
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You know my whole little comment seems to depend on the fact that gravity will affect the velocity of the object....and I don't think it does. Even though it is changing directions (arching) this does not necessarily mean that it is slowing down at all (even though to me it may seem that is true). Sorry to ramble so much.
Fury
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I mentioned this issue in anopther topic yesterday.
Basic physics. Numbers used for clarity of explanation and are not real.
A round fired on the planet Earth will travel 1 mile under 1 gravity.
A round fired on Planet X will travel 1/2 a mile under twice the gravity.
"If you fire a level rifle and at the same instant drop an identical projectile from the same height, both projectiles will hit the ground at the same instant" - is absolutley correct. As long as both objects are tested with the same gravitational force.
-Westy
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Fury,
Gravity affects the trajectory of the bullet from the moment it leaves the barrel. However, it only changes the trajectory in one direction -- toward the center of the earth. Since we are shooting at targets moving in three dimensions, from a platform also moving in three directions, it is not so easy to say what the affect of a changed gravity will have on aiming.
I doubt many of us actually "think" about the affect of gravity when shooting -- except for the long range tail shot. Most of the time, we aim based on the trajectory of the tracers, and on experience. The same method will apply to the "new" gravity, and we will all quickly adapt.
popeye
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Originally posted by Fury:
What I made out of this example was that now there would be much less lead readuired to shoot, and also since my bullet will not begin it's arc until well past the target, the hits would be more lethal.
Yes, you will have to put less lead when shooting, but when target is far from you, you still don't know about the right angle of lead needed. When bullet strikes target, it's its velocity on impact that is important. Now since speed will not be changed, your bullet has the same speed as before and has to travel same distance to target.
As with Westy's example, the only reason for a bullet to travel less distance under double gravity is because it will hit ground at half the distance of normal gravity (due to planet making bullet's vertical downward speed double. Imagen there is no ground, bullets will end up at the same distance from you, but bullet under double gravity will be located lower then the one affected by normal gravity).
What this leads us to, is when we shoot now, we have to have more lead on target, but horizontal speeds of bullets stay the same. The only difference is that vertical speeds will be different. Now does it matter if when bullet strikes, it cuts through straight, or makes its way downward? I guess it all depends on which part of the plane bullet hit. And I don't think that AH calculates this kind of stuff anyway.
mx22
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Unless you guys work for HTC i suggest u dont know what your talking about.
This is like the NBA anouncing they are going to cut the weight of the ball in half. I Think an explanation is in order, big time.
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We've been testing out the fix and haven't noticed a significant difference. While the bullets don't curve down so drastically at long range, it seems like that effect was giving a larger target planform at long range. HT thinks it also makes dispersion effects look greater, but I haven't really noticed.
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
Perfect plans, aren't.
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As far as i can tell from the flying ive done in 1.02 hitting a longer ranges hasn't changed do to the gravity bug fix. It's just that the aim point is different.
CANNON
As far as an explination there realy isn't one,it was just a bug that I found when I was working on the tank stuff. The bug was simple, I was adding gravity into the acceration of the bullet twice.
But I do find it interesting that with all the debate over gunnery and lethalities, no one noticed that bullets were droping to much.
HiTech
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Prompt and concise. Salute HTC.
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Originally posted by hitech:
But I do find it interesting that with all the debate over gunnery and lethalities, no one noticed that bullets were droping to much.
HiTech
Jeez, HT, haven't you figured that one out yet?
That's because 99% of the complainers have no clue with respect to what they're talking about!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
(G, D, R & R & R & R & R) <-- in Forrest Gump Voice
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 03-30-2000).]
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ooops
[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 03-30-2000).]
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I usually take gravity into consideration more on deflection shots Popeye. Six shots, to me, are easy and much less complicated. It's those high AoA shots that kill me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Notice too much of a drop? I guess it wasn't a problem for me, HiTech. I've never seen ballistics modelled online before and I only learned to pull lead on a bogy as needed.
I'll have to relearn again. that's no big deal (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I for one am happy to hear that this fix won't contribute to an increase of reports from long range kills because I for one can't stand hearing them.
My intitial thought was indeed doom & gloom-ish in thinking that rounds with less gravitational pull downward would end up with a longer forward trajectory which might contribute to some REAL long distance kills -
not to mention the increase of complaints posted in here. I've not found I'm being killed by long distance shots at all.
Had a moment of worry that this might change.
-Westy
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Westy-
Would you like to see some film of an La5 tearing the tail off my B17 at 1.0-1.2? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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In reference to the gravity vs bullet thingy-
One thing everyone has forgot I think is that the bullet travels on a ballistic flight path. It doesn't come straight out of the muzzle and travel along the same parrallel axis that the barrel is on, it pops up, then eventually drops and intercepts the plane that a laser from the barrel would make, and then begins to fall below the point of aim.
I know this is how it works with small arms....does anyone know if larger mg's and cannons behave differently? I would think they wouldn't, but I'm sure somebody here knows
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It pops up? maybee in relation to the sight, but in relation to the barrel?
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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew
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Absolutely in relation to the barrel. When I find an on-line diagram showing/explaining this I'll put it up, since putting into words isn't coming to me.
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HT... I have noticed the quick drop rate mostly on high angle of attack shots, but having never flown any other sim, thought this must be somewhat normal. It didn't look right on the screen, but I figured what the hell do I know?? Glad to see I wasn't just imagining things, and that as usual you guys are continuing to crank out improvements on an already excellent product. The anticipation of 1.02 has grown that much stronger. Keep it up gang!!!
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(http://www.tcsn.net/aramis/skorpjg2.gif)
Skorpyon
I/JG2 ~Richthofen~
"Feel the Sting......"
[This message has been edited by Skorpyon (edited 03-30-2000).]
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OOOO SHHHUUURRRRe...Pyro and HT get to play 102 but we dont..BASTICHES !!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Kieren, I wouldn't mind seeing the film just because I like watching them. HTC are the people who really need to have it as you need to convince them that there is a problem with long distance kills.
I don't fly as much as alot of people do so maybe I've missed this problem. I've never found that I was getting shot down from long ranges at all, going back to the day that the AH open-beta opened for us.
-Westy
[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 03-30-2000).]
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HT, I noticed, I was D1.2 on your six in a 38 last night (29 March) and I started lobbing Machine Gun around you hoping you would turn.
I aimed well High, trying to get the bullets to cover the 1.2 and fall in front of you and get you to turn.
Well it worked, and you went into s turns to bleed E. I throttled back immediately, times my burst and got one of your vators. I was waiting for you to fly in front of me again, and when you didn't I knew it was time to get out of Dodge. I looked back and saw the distance growing, and another Rook behind you. I flew straight thinking that the guy behind you could shoot (Big Mistake) you removed my Vator and kilt both engines, and apparently escaped the now Two Rooks Behind you.
That is the last time I attempt you drag you for another rook.
Maybe with the new gunnery model he will hit you next time.
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"Downtown" Lincoln Brown.
lkbrown1@tir.com
http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1 (http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1)
Wrecking Crews "Drag and Die Guy"
Hals und beinbruch!
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Originally posted by Gman:
It doesn't come straight out of the muzzle and travel along the same parrallel axis that the barrel is on, it pops up, then eventually drops and intercepts the plane that a laser from the barrel would make, and then begins to fall below the point of aim.
Are you saying that if the barrel was completely level, the bullet would still climb above its original height, but later fall down due to gravity?
I would say that the gun was pointed slightly upward so the bullet would cross your gunsight again, due to the gravity, at the convergence length.
I made a quick hand scetch of the two possibilities (don't laugh (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)), where the red line is the bullets path and the green line is the "laser" line from the barrel. Something I forgot to put in was the gunsight-view-line, but this should be level in both situations (and thus be identical to green line in first pic)
(http://home14.inet.tele.dk/snefens/projektil.jpg)
If convergence was to be set further out I would say that the barrel would be put at an higher angle, so the bullet would go higher and that way pass the gunsight further out and I am just talking about vertical convergence here, like MG of the 109 for instance.
Speaking of those MG I used to have their convergence at 650m, but noticed that I then would shoot a bit to high if I aimed at a bandit at for instance 300m.
Someone else talked about more lead was needed when turning after an enemy. This is not true, at least not if both are turning at 90 degree. All that might be affected is that the bullets in the future will now hit the fuselage instead of the lowest wing of the bandit, and that is actually exaggerated as such a shot is often from 200-300m where the drop is still very small, that be either at 1 or 2 G.
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Ltn. Snefens
RO, Lentolaivue 34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34)
[This message has been edited by LLv34_Snefens (edited 03-30-2000).]
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Hah, you are far less lazy then me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
The first diagram is accurate in terms of the trajectory from a rifle. If I sight in bang on at a medium range, the rounds will hit a few inches high of the aim point at the 100 and 150 meter markers.
There are actually flare rounds (no, not tracers) which I've seen demonstrate this at the Gunsite course in Arizona. You could visibly see the rounds popping up from the muzzle and then following their ballistic path. Again, I know this is right, I'm just not sure how or if it relates to the ballistics modeling in AH. Being above and beside the guns in the wings makes it hard to tell, and even in the 109 or 38 I can't tell if they are popping up correctly or not. I'm not even sure if this is important, but after ten gin and tonics, I've convinced myself it is, (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) lol.
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I have a solution to easy long range kills if we are willing to try it...
read the thread:
"Range ICON = handicapped gameplay and spray"
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/002452.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/002452.html)
tell me if ya like it or dislike the idea (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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CitabriAirbatiC
"There Is No Spoon"
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And just what amazing unknown force is creating this mythical "pop-up" hmmm? Anti-gravity?
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Heres a quick way to see what HT is saying using the hog d go shoot and turn slightly you can see the bullets drop faster as they stream away I only noticed it on the guns not the cannons I thought it was normal so I adjusted to it. I say to turn cause you cant see it as much in straight line plus use hog d cause it has lots of ammo.
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Tommy (INDIAN) Toon
1st Aces High Trainer Corps.
Home of The Allied Fighter Wing A.F.W.
A.F.W. Homepage (http://www.geocities.com/~tltoon)
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Time for a little correct physics:
Rounds do NOT pop up upon leaving gun barrels unless the rounds are not symmetrical. You may think you see this with a tracer (or flare) shot Gman, but your eyes are playing tricks with you. Unless you have a round with some kind of lifting body effect which requires that the round not be symmetrical, it CANNOT pop up. It may be possible to have recoil affect the pointing of the gun, raising the aim point slightly and giving the effect of a pop-up, but this is not a pop-up by the round after leaving the barrel.
and for the question of where the round hits down range when gravity is doubled, it isn't 1/2 the distance. The time to fall varies inversely as the square root of the acceleration, so the time of fall will be .707 (1/sqroot(2)) as long as it was with one G. Therefore the distance will be .707 times the original distance. If you don't believe me, pull out an old physics text book and do the math.
warmut
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[This message has been edited by warmut (edited 03-31-2000).]
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Maybe I'm wrong but I dont' think its "popping up".
If you sight the gun for 200 meters (medium range) and then fire it at a target at 100 meters yes it will hit higher than where you aimed.
But thats because your aiming point is setup (calibrated) to correct for the bulletdrop over the 200m distance, but since it is not going as far, it doesn't drop as far, and therefore you hit higher than the point you aimed at.
The only way I know for it to actually rise is if in some way the bullet itself is acting as a lifting body (ie like a wing).
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
Carpe Jugulum
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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I have something very important to say her and that is.. woops my poptarts just popped up. later
[This message has been edited by FDAce (edited 03-31-2000).]
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Originally posted by RAM:
I agree 100%, Maniac...or Long range shooting is somehow turned down, or I'll again begin to think in dropping my account.
If I am going to die from 2.0K i'd rather go hunting rats
And I agree 100% with RAM and Maniac! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (BTW - With correct ballistics, RAM would have been ded faster in the valleys the other day by me.) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
Hopefully, HTC will do the "lethality" issues right this time. I know my gunnery sux in AH and now I know why... Good old coding typos. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
Guarantee this is gonna piss off a lot more folks than it makes happy. Specially the canon dweebs v MG (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
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Tern
"Live to Fly! Fly to Fight! Fight to Live!"
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Originally posted by Gman:
Absolutely in relation to the barrel. When I find an on-line diagram showing/explaining this I'll put it up, since putting into words isn't coming to me.
THANK YOU GMAN! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) Yes it works the same in all projectile weapons. From Bow and Arrow, to Crossbow, to Slingshot, (no catapult data yet) to any rifled barrel projetile and most non-rifled barrels. (Can't think of any non-rifled that are not affected thus.) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Tern
"Live to Fly! Fly to Fight! Fight to Live!"