Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: gatt on October 11, 1999, 11:36:00 AM
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"We had to delay the C.205 because the references we need have not arrived yet"
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Ach, really sad news ... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) Is it an art problem or a FM one? Here in italy we have some good stuff about those a/c. Let us know if we can help.
In the meantime I'm happy to see our Jap and LW friends get their favourite kites.
Good work,
Gatt
4th Stormo Caccia
(http://www.flightsimmers.net/amivirtual/images/Mc202gear.jpg)
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It is an art problem. Pyro has been waiting on a book to come in, but it hasn't arrived on time. So he decided it would be best to start on something else. I'm sure that will be the next plane in line though.
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John "SUPERFLY" Guytan - Art Director
HiTech Creations
"The Artist Formerly Known As MONKEY"
-=HELLFIRE=- SQUAD
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I'm dumbfounded, really.
Gatt
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Why are you dumbfounded gatt?
Oh, I forgot to mention in my previous post that if you have some good, solid/accurate references, you can email them to me at johng@hitechcreations.com
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John "SUPERFLY" Guytan - Art Director
HiTech Creations
"The Artist Formerly Known As MONKEY"
-=HELLFIRE=- SQUAD
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Gatt,
Don't worry, mi amico, that the delay is an art one is very good news, in one sense. It means that HTC have all the FM data they need and merely wish to make sure about things like cockpit interiors, etc. I know how crushed you feel right now. I do, because this happened to me what seems like a long time ago with WB when I expected to see the La-5FN as the first Soviet fighter. Instead, it was the Yakovlev fighters.
The only person I can speak for in some fashion is Pyro, since I have corresponded with him the most throughout the years. He is very adamant about detail, and will not bridge that gap with 'guesstimates', and I'm sure he, along with HT, impresses that on the rest of the staff at HTC. Usually this will mean delays to new aircraft, but the end result really is worth it, mi amico. I can vouch for that, having finally flown my own dream-plane, La-5FN, after nearly two and a half year wait (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I know your wait has been at least as long as mine, but don't worry, the C.205 will be here. And it will be a beauty!
festina lente (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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AH/cs: Grisha
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Superfly,
I was dumbfounded becouse HTC didnt even think to ask for our help. Dont mind, I'm flak happy (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Leonid, thanks for the kind words =)
Regards,
Gatt
4th Stormo Caccia
(http://canopus.lpi.msk.su/~watson/wwii/mc205-f2.jpg)
[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 10-12-1999).]
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Superfly,
I'm dumbfounded becouse the Macchi is a neverending story for us (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
They promised us the Macchi in WarBirds and we sent tons of data of the C.202 to Pyro. NOTHING.
Then we sent again beautiful books to -Mo-. He said: hey lets model a Macchi or a Fiat G.55, they are beautiful! NOTHING again.
Now I hear that you lack artwork. Uhm, I'm sure you know "Aero Detail" and "Squadron Signal" series. They are more than enough to design the artwork.
I'm afraid it'll be a joke for the third time. Too bad (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Gatt
4th Stormo Caccia
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Geez Gatt, cry me a river. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I have an Aero Detail on order and that's what we're waiting on. Now I do have a bunch of other photos and such but most are in black and white. If we had to do one with what we have it wouldn't be a problem, but why do it when I know I have a better reference on the way? It's not like it's been cancelled or will be suffering from a long delay. Just take a deep breath. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
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Gatt wrote:
I was dumbfounded becouse HTC didnt even think to ask for our help.
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Let me refresh your memory then.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/000037.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/000037.html)
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Yes Pyro,
and we then all decided to wait and see .... and our official historian and writer is a Mac guy .... you know. Now I'm happy to hear from you that all you need is a good color book.
I hope that the thing will sport the colors of 4°Stormo and will be something like a 109G-6 slightly improved as far as maneuverability and firepower are concerned.
If I look a bit harsch in my post is becouse I really love history and those Macchi a/c and I'd love to see each WWII power (ehm) with his best late war a/c.
Regards and good work,
Gatt
4°Stormo Caccia
[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 10-12-1999).]
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heya Pyro, long time no see.
You must be having nightmares about MC205 by now... see, we are persistant ;-)
Still looking forward to take the Macchi for a spin (since feb 97! ;-)
Ciao,
nibbio (was -rp- back in WB 1.11)
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Ummmm, guys?
You forgot to think about that line:
"So he decided it would be best to start on something else. I'm sure that will be the next plane in line though."
Soooo.....SPILL IT!
What plane is it? huh, huh, huh? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Gatt, don' worry...just think of it this way:
The longer you wait, the better the plane'll be (in terms of historical accuracy)
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-Rebel 487th Lil' Bastards
System:
PIII 450
160mb 100mhz SDRAM
Diamond Monster MX300 (sound)
Diamond Viper V770 TNT2 Ultra 32mb (video)
(controls follow)
TM F-22 Pro (stick)
TM F-16 TQS (throttle)
TM Elite Pedals (rudder)
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Rebel:
The C.205 was the very next plane to arrive along with the 'George', but since the Macchi has been delayed for art reasons, the Fw190A-8 is to replace it on the 'production line'.
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AH/cs: Grisha
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PYRO and SUPERFLY,
some printed stuff is on the way to HTC, Grapevine (TX). Hope you'll like it.
Good work,
Gatt
4th Stormo Caccia
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cool! thanks gatt! Don't worry it's really going to be made this time. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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John "SUPERFLY" Guytan - Art Director
HiTech Creations
"The Artist Formerly Known As MONKEY"
-=HELLFIRE=- SQUAD
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Hi Gatt,
Nice picture. Hey, tell me a little about this Italian beauty.
Her front end looks fairly long from the cockpit to the prop, denoting BIG engine perhaps? What's under the hood exactly? (Horsepower, top speed)
What armament does she pack? (guns/cannon)
She a good climber? Turn well? Roll crisp or slow?
And lastly is she Durable? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Do tell, Do tell.
Arc T
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Oh well,
big nose for the license built 1,475hp DB605A engine. Armament was 2x12,7mm (with 740 rounds) firing thru the prop and 2x20mm MG151-20 (with 250 rounds) in the wings (with heathers for high altitude intercept =).
Absolute maximum speed: 642km/h at an altitude of 7,200mt. Excellent climb rate and very good maneuverability. Deadly up to 20,000ft. A very tough foe for the SpitMkIX and the P-38J.
(http://www.museoscienza.org/english/aereo/img/205_volo2_big.jpg)
Regards,
Gatt
4th Stormo Caccia
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Anyone know the thinnest book in military history?
It's called "Heroic deeds by Italians in WW2"
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
<g,d,r>
Sascha JG 77 "Herz As!"
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What type of information / illustration does the Aero Detail series provide? I notice they're quite expensive.
Thanks for the input!
Ivedog
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These are just my thoughts.
It seems to me that Italy has had a fine navy in both wars, and a fine airforce at least in WWII (dunno about WWI). However her army has been...less than impresive. If there is such a thing as national karma, I think Italy used up all her army karma points in during the glory days of the Roman Legions.
.02
Richard r2ch Jahnel
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It's called "Heroic deeds by Italians in WW2"
That was a pretty lame joke, if I were a soldier following the orders of one of Adolf Hitlers puppets (Mussolini) I would have probably deserted and fought against the piece of toejam! After escaping those tyrants they aqquitted themselves honorably while fighting with the Allies.
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}]
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Are we talking about a/c or rather about idiotic jokes?
Sascha, the thinnest thing I see here is your brain, ignorant of the WWII history. Oh, in the meantime take a look at the story of the real JG77. You could have a big surprise, indeed.
Gatt
4th Stormo Caccia
[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 10-13-1999).]
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Someone called "sasha" wrote:
Anyone know the thinnest book in military history?
It's called "Heroic deeds by Italians in WW2"
That's a textbook example of the cultural level of someone... it is the kind of so-called "jokes" which maybe are considered funny or laughable too... I can see only idiocy and racism out there.
I won't waste a moment trying to explain the meaning of heroism to someone who has only heard about it...
And, by the way, the guy with a Russian nickname flying for a German unit, would be surprised to know that the "real" JG 77 pilots were proud to operate in combat together with the Italian-manned Macchi C.205s of I° Gruppo caccia A.N.R.... but this would be asking too much, I know... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
L'E' BUNA !
_/_/_/_/
_/ Ferdinando 'veltro' D'Amico
_/_/_/'PR' of 4° Stormo Caccia
_/e-mail: veltro@warbirds.org
_/
[This message has been edited by veltro (edited 10-13-1999).]
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gatt,
From what I know of Italian aircraft, they were very maneuverable, good climbers and decent speed. However, they weren't too durable under enemy fire. Is this correct? I seem to recall, however, that the MC.205 was quite a good plane by any standard.
And don't forget, the Italians fought in the Russian front too!
As for Sascha's joke, I'm sorry, but that wasn't fair to all the Italians who fought bravely in WWII. If anyone was to be blamed in the Italian army it is the officers. They were more interested in themselves than in their troops, and went to great lengths to insure that their standard of living was maintained at the cost of troops' basic needs.
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AH/cs: Grisha
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-rzch- wrote:
It seems to me that Italy has had a fine navy in both wars, and a fine airforce at least in WWII (dunno about WWI). However her army has been...less than impresive. If there is such a thing as national karma, I think Italy used up all her army karma points in during the glory days of the Roman Legions.
Wanna be deadly and cruelly honest? We had a great navy, but for most of the war it was kept in the ports, due both to lack of fuel and of political willingness of the Italian Navy High Commands to operate in an offensive role. When the navy was used in such a way, it scored some devastating blows against the Royal Navy, but when engaged in a wrong way, due also to the lack of any radar device, it was hit even more badly. Not to mention the blow suffered at Taranto...
The air force? Great on the paper, but made of old aircraft and withouth an industry technologically capable of mass-production. So when new planes were developed, even when they were masterpieces (Macchi C.202 and C.205, Reggiane Re. 2001 and Re.2005, Fiat G.55, Cant Z.1007 bis), each of them was conceived as a fine craftmanship piece, totally unsuitable for mass-production (had it been ever possible...). The result was that for most of the war the Italian pilots had to do their best with the planes available, and when good to excellent ones were at last supplied, this happened in such esigue numbers that their impact was felt only in very limited areas. The rest was (thanks also to a training mainly aimed at emphasizing the manouvred combat and the aircraft agility, contrary to what were the esigences of the war out there and to the planes used by the enemy...) a struggle for survival, where there were outstanding highlights and a general level of performance that was nothing short of a miracle, considering the operating conditions!
Last but not least, the army: it was the one that suffered the most for being ill equipped, armed, trained and ... led ! When the Italian soldier was put in condition to fight at a par with the enemy, it performed splendidly (ask some British soldier operating in North Africa...). The performance of the Italian "Folgore" and "Ariete" Divisions during the battle of El Alamein was commended by Rommel himself. (certainly usually not very kind towards the Italians...!).
That the level of the higher ranks was well below an acceptable level is a matter of fact, and this led to most of the battle lost by the Italian soldiers. But this is a whole different thing from the normal (pre)-judices usually applied to the Italians.
On many occasions, for an Italian at war the real heroism was to take his WW1 rifle and go to attack an enemy far superior both in numbers and equipment, or to climb into a cockpit and face often with an outdated, outgunned and outperformed aircraft, lots of better armed, faster and more modern aircraft, flown by better trained pilots... it is easy to speak today, even easier without knowing anything about what really happened.
So the truth, as you can see, was far less "glamorous" than the Fascist regime wanted to admit and the most criminal act was that of throwing into WW2 a nation that wasn't capable of sustaining it, let alone winning!
I do really hope that this helps to shed a bit of light into this matter and to let someone think twice before posting old junk that can be at par with the "Pizza, Spaghetti and Mandolino" image that many would like to continue to believe in...
We are the sons and the nephews of those Italians and, while we can be (I personally am) really ashamed of the rise to power of Fascism, I'm not ashamed at all by their behaviour during the war and by their subsequent choices that led to the nation I'm living in. This said, we will not let pass any unrespectful comment against Italians... this should be crystal clear for all.
All the best and ... L'E' BUNA !
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_/ Ferdinando 'veltro' D'Amico
_/_/_/'PR' of 4° Stormo Caccia
_/e-mail: veltro@warbirds.org
_/
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[veltro wrote]
"And, by the way, the guy with a Russian nickname flying for a German unit"
You talking to me ?
(trying my best De Niro from taxi driver (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif))
laika
8./JG5
[This message has been edited by Laika (edited 10-13-1999).]
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Leonid,
again thanks for your words and your knowledge of history. I'll be happy to wing you in the arena. Even if actually we are virtual foes (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
As far as durability is concerned I think that you can compare the C.205 with a 109G6, but I can be wrong. Any hint will be more than wellcome.
Regards,
Gatt
4¡Stormo Caccia
P.S.: Sascha, again, read the war diary of the JG77. They were proud of the 205 pilots they fought with. And they did envy the Veltro. Some of the best photos I've ever seen are of 109G and C.205 patrolling togheter the italian sky.
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I was going to mention the Ariete division until Veltro beat me to it....
When I'm not flying, historical miniatures wargaming is my bag. One of my favorite things is commanding my regiment-sized micro-armor "abteilung" (gatt or veltro, what's the Italian equivalent term for abteilung?) consisting of a Bersaglieri battalion, supported by a company of Semovente 75s with attached 47mm ATG and 20mm Breda AAA, teamed with an understrength battalion of M13/40s. If I can get some decent ground I give the Tommies a lot of trouble, at least until they can bring up some Matildas. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) But even then, if I can get Rommel to loan me a couple of platoons of Marders or an 88.... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
The 47L32 (I know it's getting off-topic) is a good hard-hitting gun for its caliber, handicapped in most rules systems by (apparently) optics that limit its effective range. It was considered ballistically superior to the British 2pder, though, in the eyes of many. The fundamental problem with Italy's war effort was its command & logistics structures, along with lack of industrial base.
I think Sascha was just trying to be funny, which goes to show that humor is a difficult concept (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif). I myself am waiting patiently for an RPS that includes Macchi C.R.42s and Gloster Gladiators. You SpitDweeben(tm) just think you know turn'n'burn. (KIDDING!!!!) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Those kites will just about pirouette on a wingtip. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Flathat
'Black Dahlia'
No10 RNAS "The Black Flight"
Angel on your wing, devil on your tail
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Flathat,
No, Sascha is only adding realism to this beautiful simulation. We all know that JG were plenty of gallant aces like Galland, Rall and Steinhoff. We all know that there were also fanatic characters, full of hot air. You understand what I mean? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I hope he or his CO will show up and tell something HERE.
Regards,
Gatt
4°Stormo Caccia
[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 10-13-1999).]
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FlatHat wrote:
One of my favorite things is commanding my regiment-sized micro-armor "abteilung" (gatt or veltro, what's the Italian equivalent term for abteilung?)
The term is "reparto"... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Thanks for joining... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
L'E' BUNA !
_/_/_/_/
_/ Ferdinando 'veltro' D'Amico
_/_/_/'PR' of 4° Stormo Caccia
_/e-mail: veltro@warbirds.org
_/
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As for the robustness of Macchi 202/205: it was indeed very robust and could soustain heavy damage as its structure was not industrially conceived. Where the Messerschmitt had a kind of self sustaining skin, which was stressed, holes on the skin of the Macchi didn't cause structural failures unless the bullet touched really vital frame structures. I saw a photo of a Macchi 205 back from a mission on the Balkans with the whole zone of the left ailerons destroyed (if I'd only get how to upload pictures!) . The frame was calculated for +/-12G so it could soustain the hardest maneuvers at every speed and on sustained dive the prototype reached subsonic speeds: I think the Macchi 205 is something like a very durable Ki61 with improved climbing as a Bf109F.
About the issue of the qualities of Italian Army during WWII, let me only add an exaple very important to me (since I grew up in a strong recruitment zone of Alpini, means alpine troops).
Only a few of you will know that the majority of the people came back from Russia after the Russian offensive on the Don-river of Christmas 1942 to aislate Stalingrade, have to thank the desperate resistance of these mountain troops thrown in the endless russian plane if they managed to come back. After having hold theyr positions for more weeks after the front broke on theyr left and on theyr right protecting the retreat of the defeated units(for this purpose the "Julia" division was even moved on open field, on the right of the front, disposed North-South, imagine, in December at temperatures of -30C by day and -50C by night without any protection other than the poor personal equipment, to face the enemy coming now also from east) the Corpo d'Armata Alpino (Alpine Armed Corp) started, after having received order to retreat, in middle january '43 a more than 300km march back home by feet in enemie's already conquered land, opening the way home to a mass of desbanded people of all nationalities out of the gigantic cul-de-sac created by the Russians, fighting almost every day aginst armoured units and at night with the -50C°.
After the decisive battle at Nikolajewka on January 27th they broke the last ring and managed to come out definetively.
On february 8th '43 the bullettin of the Supreme Command of the red Army no. 630 annouced to all Soviet's citizens the succes of the winter offensive and added that "only the Italian Alpine Armed Corp should be hold as unveinced on Russian homeland", just so for them to know ;-)
Sorry for having bored you with the Alpini story, but I love the humble kind of theyr courage they took from theyr mulis...
Ciao!
Luigi "falco"(is just a joke, I'm not that good;-) Pacetti
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Just to clarify.
My posted thoughts earlier were never intended to slight the bravery or determination of the Italian fighting man. Rather only to say that for various reasons the Italian army seems to have had poor luck in war ever since the fall of Rome. I appologize to anyone who took my post otherwise.
r2ch
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Rzch,
no problem, no one is making references to your post. As you can read here, we are the first to admit what italians did or didnt during WWII.
Yesterday I was taking a look at "The Rommel Papers" (edited by B.H. Liddel-Hart). Well, I searched in the index under the entry "Italians". Guess what I found:
- poor military equipment
- slugginesh of command
- inferiority complex
- Rommel's tribute to [artillery and Ariete Armoured Div.]
- inability to keep secrets
- wish to lead army against Germans (!)
- inefficiency and coruption in Rome
- fight well at El Alamein
- panic among
- parachute division [impressed by]
- some fine officers
- tank deficiencies
- courage of tank troops at El Alamein
- elan of Bersaglieri at Kasserine Pass.
Funny story, I'm italian, I love my country, but in the end I have to agree with Rommel for the most part. And I treat with the due respect every man dead doing ones duty.
Regards,
Gatt
4th Stormo Caccia
(http://www.museoscienza.org/english/aereo/img/205_rsi_big.jpg)
[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 10-13-1999).]
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rzch, no excuses are necessary!
I have to thank you instead because your post gave me the opportunity to deal with the behaviour of all Italian armed forces in WW2...
Your opinion was appreciated and respected.
L'E' BUNA !
_/_/_/_/
_/ Ferdinando 'veltro' D'Amico
_/_/_/'PR' of 4° Stormo Caccia
_/e-mail: veltro@warbirds.org
_/
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Hi Roberto! I told you I would do a Macchi one day. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Gatt: Grazie. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations