Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: o0Stream140o on June 17, 2004, 11:03:11 PM
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I received this from a P-51 Ace that I have been emailing back and forth with... some of you guys might find it interesting... well Ex-tails might... I figured you guys in CT might appricate it a little more...
Dear Eric,
I hope you will not mind me calling you by your first name. In my case you can use whatever you are comfortable with. Most folks address me as Art.
Not precisely sure of what your first question pertaining to "actions I was in" means. I flew 66 missions, 337 hours of combat time and flew missions to Greece, Bulgaria, Rumania, Yugoslavia, Austria, Hungry, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Germany, France, and Italy. I will try to take a digital shot of a map showing where I flew my missions to and where I got victories.
My initial missions were often to Ploesti where the Germans were desperately trying to preserve there last significant source of natural oil. Of course there were many other missions to various places in all the countries listed above. I could send you a list of the mission destinations; however, it might be very difficult to locate them on a map today as many were carried as a small city because there was a large war industry very close by.
The majority of our missions was long range escort of the bombers, both B-17s and B-24s. For the B-17s, our altitude was normally 28 to 30 thousand feet. With the B-24s, it was normally from 25 to 28 thousand feet. My average mission time was about 5 hours and 10 minutes. I preferred escorting the B-17s as they could keep a good tight formation to 30,000 feet while the B--24 became difficult to control over 25,000 feet. As a consequence their formations would become spread out. In one case a Group spread out over 50 miles. It was impossible for us to adequately escort them plus they were right over an undercast. The Germans were vectored to them, came up from the undercast, and shot 5 down before we could even get there. The Germans paid the price but in the mean time, 50 of our aircrews were lost.
Flying with the 325th was a dream come true. And especially when my squadron commander, Herschel H. (Herky) Green was the leading ace of the theater. Many wonder what it was like flying the P-51. Since I have 370 hours in the P-47 and 510 hours in the P-51, I could compare them. I have often said that flying the P-47 was like riding a spirited steed but flying the P-51, I was the spirited steed. I wish it were possible to adequately describe the experience of flying the Mustang. It is impossible but let me tell you a bit of my first flight in it.
I have never seen a Dash-1 for the Mustang and our pre-checkout consisted of filling out a questionnaire by using a master one that had been previously filled out. That is how we learned the power settings and general information. The crew chief filled me in on the other things like how to start the engine and where and what all the dials, levers, switches, buttons, etc. in the cockpit were for.
I then taxied down to the end of the runway and advanced the throttle. As I gained speed, and the tail came up, it seemed the nose was going too far down, and I was afraid my prop might hit the runway. But it was normal and I got used to it later. By the time I got halfway down the runway, I was flying, and it seemed the aircraft anticipated my every move. The bird felt so great that I held it down and when I came to my revetment which was just to the left of the runway end, I made a steep turn at 50 feet around my revetment, waving to my ground crew. With no other aircraft did I have that confident feeling within 30 seconds of starting my first takeoff run.
My first "kill" turned out to be a probable that I would have to tell you the story. It happened during an "early return" when I spotted 6 Me-109s starting to attach B-24s over Yugoslavia. But this is already too long so will hold that one and my first two victories (happened at the same time) for the next E-mail.
Most cordially, Art Fiedler
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/269_1087181432_checkbanner_mod_01.jpg)
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cool read... looks like more interesting stuff to follow. it's good people take time to listen and ask questions of these guys, now moreso than ever.
which unit did he serve with?
325th?
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Originally posted by Shane
cool read... looks like more interesting stuff to follow. it's good people take time to listen and ask questions of these guys, now moreso than ever.
which unit did he serve with?
325th?
He flew for the 325th, 317th Pursuit Squadron. His P-1D was called "Helen". He had 8 confirmed and 1 probable kill, and the eighth highest scoring pilot in the 325th. His decorations include the Silver Star, DFC with Oak Leaf cluster, Air Medal with 22 clusters, the Legion of Merit and a slew of other Achievement and Meritorious awards! By anyone’s standards a true American Hero!
We have contact with Mr Feidler and one other Checkertail, Dennis Parker... his site it http://www.checkertail.com. Its an interesting read...
I will forward the next part as soon as I get it... wait till you hear about his first two kills...
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/269_1087181432_checkbanner_mod_01.jpg)
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Originally posted by o0Stream140o
some of you guys might find it interesting... well Ex-tails might... I figured you guys in CT might
Great stuff, Stream, thanks very much for posting it.
- oldman
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Stream when I was emailing him a while back he told me how he made his landing patterns, thats where mine came from :D
He is were I also learned runway form-ups as well as departure and RTB proceedures....basicly what you guys do now ;)
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Maybe you get him to come to this years Con. Would be great to hear him.
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Yeah I heard similar accounts from Lt. Col Charles McGee from the 332nd FG Tuskegee Airmen. He said almost verbatim that you could think the plane into doing whatever you wanted to do, if you looked in a general direction, then plane would be there with you.
He flew 407 combat missions from WW2 to Vietman...
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Originally posted by Red Tail 444
Yeah I heard similar accounts from Lt. Col Charles McGee from the 332nd FG Tuskegee Airmen. He said almost verbatim that you could think the plane into doing whatever you wanted to do, if you looked in a general direction, then plane would be there with you.
He flew 407 combat missions from WW2 to Vietman...
He also shot down a Me 262 Jet, right?
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Some more for the story....
Hello Eric,
Found the story of my first two victories. Here it is.
This is a story I sent to a cousin who wanted to know more about some of my victories.
First about air to air combat: a lad recently asked me if it was hard to shoot down an enemy plane. I could only tell him it depended on the circumstances. Some victories were unbelievably lucky, others were exceedingly difficult, and it was only by the grace of God that I was the victor instead of the vanquished. As in hunting, you don't aim at the animal if it is flying or running; your bullet would end up behind it. You must aim ahead and hope your bullet will be at the same place at the same time as the animal/bird. And so it is in aerial combat. I had to aim well ahead of the enemy plane and hope it and my bullets would meet at the same place and time. Duck hunting is something like that except the hunter is standing still when he is shooting. In my case, my target was usually moving between 300 and 450 mph, and I was flying about the same speed.
This is the story of my first two victories. It was the 28th of June 1944 and we were on a fighter sweep over Ploesti, Rumania, 534 miles from my base. Ploesti was one of the last natural sources of oil for Germany, and was strongly defended. A fighter sweep is when we go looking for enemy planes and are not escorting bombers as most of our missions were.
As we neared Ploesti we were flying between 24 and 25,000 feet just below an overcast. Our other two squadrons were flying above the overcast. Suddenly on my radio I heard: "Beau coups 109s at 30,000 feet". This meant a lot of German fighters had been spotted above the clouds. Our squadron leader immediately ordered, "Drop Tanks" and began climbing into the overcast. These tanks which we carried under the wings held extra gasoline and were dropped during combat. My left tank hung up, and I had to go through some gyrations to get rid of it; just in time to see the last P-51 disappear into the clouds. I also began climbing and was surprised to see that the overcast was not solid but layered. Each layer was 200 to 500 feet thick with clear areas between.
As I passed through an open space, I would quickly glance right and left to be sure I did not lose the squadron. About 27,000 feet, I spotted two aircraft off to my left approximately 1000 yards away. Before I could stop climbing, I was in the next layer of clouds. Immediately I turned in the direction of the two aircraft and descended below the cloud layer into the clear area. There they were! By now I was close enough to see the oil coolers under each wing, and I clearly identified them; they were Me-109s, Germany's best fighter at the time.
I was closing rapidly and decided that I would blow away the leader first and then take on the wingman. But about 200 yards behind them, the wingman suddenly went into a right skid; a clear indication that he had seen me and was trying to identify me. My plans changed instantly; I turned toward him and opened fire from about a 30° angle off. I was rewarded with numerous hits (flashes of light) on his bird. He instantly snapped over inverted and went into a vertical dive earthward…with me right on his tail. As many pilots without combat experience do, I had completely forgotten about the leader!! This was a deadly mistake and should have gotten me killed.
The wingman and I plunged down while he twisted and turned in an attempt to prevent my bullets from hitting him. Somewhere near 13,000 feet, he started to pull out of his dive. Opening fire again, I saw flashes all over his aircraft, and now flames and a torrent of black smoke started streaming behind him. This time he did not immediately snap over into a dive but slowly his left wing dropped, followed by his nose and once again we were going straight down.
I did not want to make the same mistake I had heard of other pilots making. After wounding or killing an enemy pilot, but not being aware of it, they continued to follow the diving enemy plane so low that they were unable to safely pull out of their dive…and both died. Since the ground level we flew over varied from sea level to several thousand feet, I began a pull out somewhere around 5,000 feet. Dropping a wing to watch him, I saw the aircraft smash into the ground below me and a column of thick, black smoke began rising. The week before I had set another Me-109 on fire but did not see him hit the ground so was awarded only a probable victory. This time, I decided to take a picture of the burning wreck as proof of my victory.
Dropping down toward the burning wreckage, I switched off my guns and took pictures with my gun camera. As I finished and started climbing, I was startled to see another 109, undoubtedly the flight leader, crossing in front of me from right to left. Flipping the gun switch back on, I whipped into a vertical left bank and opened fire from a high angle off. As I began pulling high g's, I saw several hits along his fuselage when abruptly all my guns stopped firing (a common problem with the B and C models). I then found myself slipping into formation with the 109 as we were both flying at about the same speed.
As I pulled in on his left wing, no more than 40 to 45 feet away, we were both staring intently at each other. Amazing as it may sound, I noticed nothing about his airplane but could describe his helmet and oxygen mask minutely.
Now I was faced with an unusual dilemma. We were flying toward Russia and although I was not extremely low on fuel, if I stayed in this position very long, I could be in real trouble. P-51s returning home might spot us on the deck, and if they identified the leader as a Me-109, they would probably not give me a second glance before they attacked. One just does not fly on the wing of an enemy airplane! But if I tried to turn away, it would give the 109 pilot a good shot at me before I could get out of the range of his cannons and machine guns.
I do not know how long I flew in this position -- it seemed forever -- but was probably no more than 30 seconds. Desperately I decided that if I took out my .45 caliber automatic and started firing at the German pilot, hopefully he would turn away as no one likes to sit still while someone is shooting at him from this distance. This would then give me an opportunity to whip around in the other direction and head for home.
However, as I started to withdraw the gun from my shoulder holster, I was astounded to see him jettison his canopy and bail out. I can only surmise that perhaps I had wounded him or he thought when I reached for my gun that I was gesturing for him to bail out. Who knows? But I took a picture of him in his parachute to verify this victory also.
Incidentally I knew there was a real battle going on upstairs as when I started climbing again and looked around, I could see many columns of black smoke rising in the surrounding countryside from crashed aircraft. The remainder of the flight was uneventful as I soon found another P-51, and we both returned to base.
Hope this is the kind of story you are interested in.
Cordially, Art Fiedler
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That is excellent!
Tell the guy thanks!
Crumpp
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I agree with Crumpp and tell him thanks! :)
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Ask him in what situation and speeds he used flaps in combat!! :D
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Yeah!!
Pump him for plane info!:p
Seriously, there is a program run by the library of congress to record the experience's of our Veterans. It would be a shame for this guys experience, courage, and sacrifice to be lost to history.
http://www.loc.gov/folklife/vets/
Again, tell him Thanks not only for the stories but for his service.
Crumpp
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Thanks stream, please send my thanks and regards to Mr. Fiedler as well.
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"Its an interesting read..." Damn, I'll say it's interesting. I started and couldn't stop until I had read the entire diary. Thanks for posting the link.
The Beeg
Originally posted by o0Stream140o
He flew for the 325th, 317th Pursuit Squadron. His P-1D was called "Helen". He had 8 confirmed and 1 probable kill, and the eighth highest scoring pilot in the 325th. His decorations include the Silver Star, DFC with Oak Leaf cluster, Air Medal with 22 clusters, the Legion of Merit and a slew of other Achievement and Meritorious awards! By anyone’s standards a true American Hero!
We have contact with Mr Feidler and one other Checkertail, Dennis Parker... his site it http://www.checkertail.com. Its an interesting read...
I will forward the next part as soon as I get it... wait till you hear about his first two kills...
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/269_1087181432_checkbanner_mod_01.jpg)
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Most excellent, Stream! Thanks!
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Priceless
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A good read! He is very analytical on his own doings.
gripen
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I wanted to show this to you guys.... Two of my guys got to meet Art Fiedler at Camarillo Air Show... They took some pictures...
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/269_1094184749_img_0446.jpg)
Mr. Fiedler is the one on the left, the person on the right is Lt. Michael Karatsonyi. He was a pilot for the Lufwaffe and flew the ME 109-G6 and had five victories. He was shot down and survived a horrible fire in the cockpit. His eyelids were burned so severely that he could not shut them for four year's. Funny thing is that these two guys were in the same battle at one time...
Here is Mr. Feidler in front of a P-51D that was painted #11 that Hershell Green flew for the 317th. Mr. Fiedler flew Hershell "Herky" Green's wing...
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/269_1094185042_img_0450.jpg)
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(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/269_1087181432_checkbanner_mod_01.jpg)
Colonel Stream
Commanding Officer
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Here was a question put to Mr. Fiedler...
How long did the average dogfight last and why?
When would you engage and when would you not engage as well as when would you disengage and why?
His answer...
I’m afraid that I am unable to give you a clear cut answer to your question. I do not know what AN AVERAGE DOGFIGHT IS. Let me give you some things to consider: Am I just one attacking one, or am I attacking more or many more than one. Am I with a squadron attacking say 20, 40, or 100 of them? Or perhaps we are being bounced by a superior number or it is a hit and run attack by the enemy who continues to dive away at high speed. Are we escorting bombers and could this be a feint to get us away from the bombers who then will be attacked by a large number of the enemy? I hope you can see that AN AVERAGE dogfight is difficult to pinpoint.
With that out of the way, consider when the dogfight begins. Is it when I first see him or he first sees me or when one of the other actually starts an attack or begins firing.
I trust you see the position I am in as the above does not have cut and dried definitions.
So just let me hit on a few of the combats I was in and let you make up your own mind. In my first one, I saw the 109 and observed him for about 2 minutes with no one responding to my radio calls. When it seemed he would get away, I went after him. That did not last 30 seconds before another 51 almost collided with me and I went back up to the squadron.
The next one I was returning alone to base with a rough engine. Saw 6 Me-109s lining up to attack some B-24s. Immediately dove to the attack, all except last one started their attacks before I got there. Latched on to the last one, flew right through the bombers with me on the 109s tail. Had no gun sight so did not hit him until through bombers. Followed him to 15,000 feet then tried to go back to bombers (orders). From the time I began firing until I left him at 15K might have been 20 to 40 seconds.
Next one, bounced two at 27K, followed first down saw him smash into ground, engaged 2nd one, saw him bail out. Estimate that lasted 3 to 4 minutes from 1st sighting and about 3 minutes from starting to fire.
Next one, four of us chased 7 or 8 for about 40/50 miles (Was that part of the dogfight). They split up, I attacked the one on the right who was trying to escape and blew him away. From time they split up until I blew him away, probably 30 -60 seconds. As you can see the scenario was different much of the time
On one occasion our squadron at 28000’ dove down on a gaggle of 109s at 20000feet. Was that the start of the dog fight or when we caught up with them. That was a real mess, my windshield frosted up, I had to disengage, try to clear the ice off and was engaged by 5 or 6 109s who for some reason dove away (Maybe low on fuel??) I will skip many of the other encounters but just mention over France 1 Me-109 kept fighting six of us for at least 5 minutes before we did him in. We kept getting in each others way.
My last fight, 4 of us attacked estimated 40 of them diving on the bombers, lasted at least 5 minutes for me ( I was alone after first 20 seconds) By the way some 12 to 15 chased me from Prague to Italy and then gave up. How much of that was a dog fight?
We always engaged when bombers were being attacked regardless of their numbers. Might not engage if we thought it was a feint or have some portion of our fighters engage (a flight, or perhaps a section)
With the P-51 we did not disengage until the enemy was destroyed, or we were very low on fuel, or our pilot was wounded. Our orders were to engage the enemy, follow him where ever he goes and destroy him. Of course you would BE disengaged if he shot you down. No choice.
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Man this is good.......
This is a true Hero to America....
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Stream you forgot this one:
by Art Fiedler
"...........if I were in a 109 and wanted to attack an equal number of 51s, I would do one of two things. I would try to evade/avoid them or make a high speed dive at them, hope they did not see me, try to knock off one or two of them and keep going as fast as possible down and away from them. We could do everything better than they could so unless the pilot was a fantastic pilot, tangling with P-51s with at least average pilots was a lose-lose situation. So if they yo yo off us, we still are coming after them and they are in trouble. Check how the top German ace, Hartmann, did it. Normally a dive from 40K, hold fire until 100 meters away, fire and continue the dive away. Of course this required him to not be seen before the attack."
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Off topic
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I am still here but my friend Chris Harper was just killed in a crop dusting accident, later guys :(
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sorry to hear that.
:(
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Sorry to hear that Hawk.
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i got a question for him.
did you ever engage Fw190's?
if so what alt did they you normally see them at and were they hard to kill? as in how many bullets you needed to put into them to make them go down?
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Sorry to hear that Hawk
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My condolences Hawk
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Details are still scetchy but whitness say he was comming in for a landing in a Thrush (big yellow crop duster) when the nose suddenly pitched up then stalled.
Didnt mean to hyjack the thread!
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Originally posted by CurtissP-6EHawk
Details are still scetchy but whitness say he was comming in for a landing in a Thrush (big yellow crop duster) when the nose suddenly pitched up then stalled.
Sorry for your loss, P6e. Crop dusting is a lot more dangerous than people think.
- oldman