Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: koala on October 12, 1999, 05:07:00 PM
-
Are there realistic German markings (swastikas) on the tail of the BF 109? Haven't flown one in external mode so I'm not sure (I'm at work so can't test it yet). If not, why not add an option to turn them on? European Air War had them on by default and WWII Fighters (Janes) had the option of turning them on. That way, if you're offended, you don't have to look at them on your client. I prefer the realism of them turned on.
ko
-
There is currently no swastika on the Bf109 in AH.
I believe one of the reasons WB didn't have them is because of the legalities in Germany regarding their use; they also have a dedicated German server which may be a factor. For a boxed sim it is easy to make different versions for distribution in different countries, in an on-line sim where all the software is downloaded this cannot be controlled.
AW3 shows swastikas, but that may just be on the custom artwork and not the default art. I also don't know how access to that game is handled from outside North America.
Anyhoo - don't hold your breath unless an option for allowing custom art is included.
Cheers,
------------------
phaetnAT
Aces High Alpha Tester
-
Showing Swastikas is a touchy subject over here in Germany, especially in computer games. Each and every game that had em has been banned from the market or altered for the release in Germany.
Wolfenstein 3D: Banned
Doom 2 (had a Wolfenstein Bonus level, remember?): Banned
Indiana Jones and the last crusade: Swastikas removed, english version is banned
Commandos: Swastikas removed, original version won't even run on your PC if the system language is set to german.
The list goes on....
Personally I don't think that people will turn Nazi if they see swastikas in computer games or elsewhere, but considering my country's history the policy makes sense (in a way).
I went to the German museum in Munich a couple of months ago, and the Me 109, Me 262 and Me 163 they have there all had the swatikas removed...pretty weird huh? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
So...: Dear developers at HTC, IEN or Playnet: Thanks for passing on the swastikas, allowing us German guys to fly your products "legally" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Sascha JG 77 "Herz As!"
-
Well swastikas mau come and go depending on which flight sim you fly and where you live. However the wing crosses are ALL wrong. Instead of the early war bold black crosses with the white outline the Me 109 G10 should have the late war white-outline-only crosses on the top of the wings with camoflage showing though the middle of the cross. The bottom of the wing usually had the black-outline-only crosses but I'm sure with the chaotic state of the Luftwaffe during the late war saw a few variations of the bottom wing.
-floo- fangs out
------------------
333rd Red Dawgs
JG 5 Eismeer
-
Here in Michigan they recently removed a Native American Good Luck symbol from the floor of one of the public building because people were unable to distinguish between it and the Symbol used by the National Socialist in Germany.
I am suprised there hasn't be an outcry against the symbol on the Finnish Brewster Buffalo's I have seen some artwork of.
A little ignorance will sure go a long way.
Just finished reading "Citizen Soldier" by Stephen Ambrose. Should be required reading for everyone in the world.
The only fighting should be done via online sims from this point on.
------------------
"I could feel the 20MM Cannon impacting behind me so I made myself small behind the pilot armor" Charlie Bond AVG
-
the swastikas will not be put on the German planes because it is a rather touchy subject, and the paint sceem on the 109 is going to be re-done.
------------------
Nathan "NATEDOG" Mathieu
Art Director
HiTech Creations
-=HELLFIRE SQUAD=-
-
I personally detest the "dumbing down" of software to the lowest common denominator. What if Germany had laws that said you couldn't fly any WW2 German planes? Are we all supposed to suffer for it? If HTC is planning on making a German server, then it would be easy enough for the server to verify that the artwork was the dumbed down stuff instead of the realistic stuff. HTC is an American company running from an American server. Trying to appease every single country in the world is impractical and unfortunate. I realize this issue isn't a biggie, but it could easily become a bigger one with passage of some new, even dumber law somewhere else. I don't live in Germany. HTC isn't a German company. The server isn't located in Germany. So why are we having to abide by German law? And by the way, censorshop is exactly what Hitler advocated. It's sad to see the current German government carrying on that tradition.
ko
-
A swastika means that much to you?
<shakes head>
WFGAS?
--Westy
-
That symbol in Finnish Brewster buffalos should be symbol of the Finnish Air Force, from the time before nazi swastikas, till end of second world war.
(that symbol is blue against white roundel)
If im not wrong, it's the original symbol of FAF.
-
Westy,
If you'd open your eyes and read my post you'd see that I said the German marking deal is not a big issue. My concern is having software governed by the lowest common denominator, where any law in any country can affect what I get to play. Censorship itself *is* a big issue. Please read posts carefully before responding in such a condescending way.
ko
-
Eventually, after time had passed, the bombed Federal building was torn down, because the memory it evoked was so traumatic that it could no longer be borne.
Allow Germany the same dignity to bury the traumatic symbols of its' past if it so wishes.
You may consider it censorship if you wish, but HTC was never ( to my knowledge )directly asked to remove those elements, they chose to.
The freedom you seek from censorship comes with the self control and perception to know where and why the lines should be drawn, and to abide by them when proper.
This COULD be an issue of censorship....
...but it isn't. It's a matter of respect.
-
Displaying it as an option in my mind gives it the due respect you seek. But to imply that it's disrespectful to display a swastika in a historical context is to imply that any kind of media (games, movies (e.g. Indiana Jones), books, etc) that deal with the subject are disrespectful. Sorry, I don't buy that. Obviously, it's not worth it to HTC to deal with this, so the safe route is to leave it off. Cool.
Serious question for the German members: are plastic model plane kits of a BF 109 or FW 190 sold in Germany? If so, do they come with historically accurate decals? Just curious.
ko
-
Serious question for the German members: are plastic model plane kits of a BF 109 or FW 190 sold in Germany? If
so, do they come with historically accurate decals? Just curious.
They are sold but not with swastikas.
You can watch Hogan's Heros here or any other
movie that displays swastikas because it plays
in that period.
Toys and games are considered by the authorities
as a different thing than movies.
There is a national authority that has the
power to put games "on the index", i.e.
they must not be sold to anyone under the
age of 18 (in Germany you are legally adult
at 18, not at 21).
Unlike video rental stores, almost no software
store has an "over 18" section with limeted
access. So game producers design games for
the german market with the intention
not to be put on the index because they
wouldn't be able to get a place on the shelf.
It isn't really censorship because the
responsible authority only examins games after
any youth-authority filed a complaint about
a specific game and if you are over 18, you
are free to buy the game.
If you think that this is in the tradition
of Nazi Germany I might remind you about
the discussion in the US after the several
shootings in US High-Schools and how they
are related to computer games.
These are the facts. Now for my personal
oppinion: Generally I think it's good to
such an authority to protect minors.
However, the fact that games are "dumbed
down" (or not even released) as described
above make it impossible for me as an adult
to play what I want, which sucks. Luckily
I can order the original games on the internet
so there is a work-around. Not having swastikas
on plastic-kits is ridiculous, IMHO.
Dancer out.
PS: the dubbing/translation for german
localized versions sucks in 90% of all
games and movies so I'm buying the original
anyway (go and ask a german about the dubbing
of the Star Trek series (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) )
-
Here in the states you don't find too many swastika decals in Luftwaffe models. I guess thats mainly due to the fact that manufacturers often send the same kit here and overseas. So I usually end up having to special order a decals sheet with swastikas of varying sizes. The good part of that is that one sheet will probably cover 6 -10 models..depending on what you build (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-floo- fangs out
------------------
333rd Red Dawgs
JG 5 Eismeer
-
He he...dancer beat me to it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
When I built my last plastic decal (about 15 years ago) the planes still came with swastikas BTW. I dunno about now though, dancer is prolly right.
Übrigens: Hast Du meine mail gekriegt dancer?
Sascha
-
Sascha,
ja, danke!
For the rest:
There is a very good article available
(in german only - sorry) at:
http://www.heise.de/tp/deutsch/special/game/6489/1.html (http://www.heise.de/tp/deutsch/special/game/6489/1.html)
The authority I talked above is called:
"Bundesprüfstelle für jugendgefährdende Schriften"
You can reach their web-site at:
http://www.bmfsfj.de/bpjs/ (http://www.bmfsfj.de/bpjs/)
Unfortunately thy don't have english pages,
too, but maybe babelfish can give you
an idea...
Dancer out.
-
Interestingly, I bought a 1/48 Tamiya 109e the other day (in Australia) and all the packaging and instruction sheets had the Hakenkreuze scrubbed out. But there they were on the decal sheet, with placement details, in case you happened not to have no problem with them (I prefer to think of the swastika in its earlier incarnation, as a Buddhist/Sanskrit symbol of good fortune)
------------------
-
koala, you should read the posts carefully yourself, before accusing others of inattention.
There is no German or any censorship here. HTC is a private american company and they decided not to put the swastikas in the artwork. If you do not like their decision, tough luck.
The reasons why they did that are their own. Even if they did that JUST to have less troubles selling their game in Germany, it is very PRACTICAL just to remove that symbol from German planes. No need to distribute/verify different texture files and servers, etc. It is not like you are going to confuse the Bf109 with other planes because of that.
Most of us here are flight simmers. We care about relevant realism stuff - flight model, tactics, even camouflage scheme (because it affects visibility), etc.
Not only swastikas are way down on the list of the realism issues, there are few considerations:
1. If AH becomes one of the very few games that allow it's display and being a public forum, it may attract people who would play just to be able publicly carry that symbol and not care about flight sims that much.
I am sure we are going to have our share of offensive individuals without them.
2. Many people will not play the game bacause of that symbol. There are quite a few people to whom it is still much more personal then just a historical symbol of a fallen empire.
3. There could be problems with selling that game in Germany, as you have mentioned.
miko--
[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 10-14-1999).]
-
Quote
-----------------------------
Fishu
Junior Member posted 10-13-1999 01:36 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That symbol in Finnish Brewster buffalos should be symbol of the Finnish Air Force, from the time before nazi swastikas, till end of second world war.
(that symbol is blue against white roundel)
If im not wrong, it's the original symbol of FAF.
--------------------------------------------------
Yes I knew that,
Quote
_____________________________ ___________________
panda
Junior Member
-----------------------------------------------------
I prefer to think of the swastika in its earlier incarnation, as a Buddhist/Sanskrit symbol of good fortune.
---------------------------------------------------
I knew this also, though the exterior lines pointed the opposite direction on the symbol used by the German National SOcialist. I believe I read that Hitler did this as a desacration to the afore mentioned symbol.
Most people are unaware of these facts, uninformed, and ignorant, and therefore would see the FAF Symbol and start to have a cow, just like the did when they saw the Native American Symbol on the floor of the building here in Michigan.
I personally am not offended by the Symbol used by the German National Socialist. I am more preturbed by the actions of individuals who use race, religion, ethnicity, gender, sexual preference, education, Etc... Etc... as an excuse to Hate, harm, or deny freedoms or rights to other individuals.
Ignorance, censorship, and slander are the tool of the hate monger. I prefer to be aware, open minded, and avoid prejudice.
I have an honest streak that is not well accepted either, but it was the way I was raised.
It is rather depressing to see the increase in Hate Crimes, not only in the U.S. but around the world.
------------------
"I could feel the 20MM Cannon impacting behind me so I made myself small behind the pilot armor" Charlie Bond AVG
-
I find it odd how many people find revisionism OK as long as it is in the "right direction". Outlaw swastikas? The only thing that does is make the symbol more powerful for the neo-nazis.
Here in Sweden they're not outlawed (of course) but we have a law against harassing groups of people. People wearing swastikas or other nazi symbols are charged under this law instead - and convicted. I think this makes a lot more sense. It's not the symbol which is dangerous, it is the ways in which it can be used.
As for suggesting that people would play Aces High just in order to be able to (sort of) publicly wear swastikas... I'll just assume there was an invisible smiley after that one as the idea is clearly about as far away from the world of Things that Make Sense(tm) as you can get. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
My 16 Swedish öre again.
Cheers,
/ft
-
The finnish swastika goes back to 1918 when the swedish count Eric von Rosen donated the FAF:s first aircraft : a Thulin D used for reconnaissance.It was his lucky sign.
(http://www.jiop.fi/ksimuseo/thul-01a.jpg)
The swastika colour was blue.
kapsyl
[This message has been edited by kapsyl (edited 10-17-1999).]
-
All you boys thinking that the USA would never do sumpin like ban the Swastika should read the papers more.
There is a certain symbol that is banned/being banned as we speak.
The batle flag of the confederacy, which many high schools(Team mascot-"The Rebels") use as a banner is almost totally banned in the south.
Is it right? who knows, but it it is the fact of the matter, so beware what you proclaim against Germany.
Personally, a symbol can only have the connotation you yourself attach to it, so I think there should be no banning of any symbol.
This is a supposed Historical Sim, the planes it is modeling had the swastika, hence the game should too.
-
We all have our opinions on the swastika and how/if it should be displayed. The symbol of the Finnish Air Force has a proud heritage/tradition behind it,ditto for the native American symbol mentioned. Personally I dont have a problem with either of them,but-when it comes to the German variety I do take exception to it. The world suffered greatly at the hands of the cowardly Nazi party who chose it to represent their ideology and out of the respect for the people who fought or died due to them I dont think it has any place in the world-except for history books. I`m German by heritage and really dig the German aircraft of WW II,but every one on my H/D has been altered by Photoshop.
(http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Lair/8887/img55.gif)
------------------
}]
-
Funny, I never realized that the rebel flag was banned, especially not in the southern U.S.
I have a rebel flag in my apartement back from the old days (high school), mostly because it's a symbol of the music that came from down there (rockabilly, etc.).
In Germany a lot of people have car stickers with the rebel flag on em, especially truck drivers that watched "Smokey and the bandit" or "Convoy" too often. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I don t even think that these guys realize that the dixie flag might be offensive to some guys.
About two years ago I went to an american diner in Munich. We rode there on our motorbikes and since it was a little cold that day I wore a bandana that had the rebel flag on it. I sat at the table and the manager came up to me and kindly asked me to take it off cause he had black guys working in his place. Funny thing was that HE knew why I wore the flag (and it wasn t illegal to do so, we were in Germany), but he said that his employees prolly wouldn t understand, so I took it off since I didn t wanna offend these guys.
I never even heared that it was illegal over here, and we are very strict concerning flags with dubious background. The German Imperial Battleflag from WW1 is banned over here too BTW and it has no swastika on it, since it represents imperialist Germany.
Sascha JG 77 "Herz As!"
[This message has been edited by Sascha JG 77 (edited 10-18-1999).]
-
It is not illegal, per se, just not allowed on display at public facilities(well, actually, some states still utilize it in thier state flags, but they are going away quickly).
-
Downtown:
just a small point, but I have seen the swastika used in a Buddhist context both ways 'round, in Chinese and Japanese and Tibetan flavours of the religion.
As a side note, is anyone familiar with a US car manufacturer in the 1920's which used the swastika? I seem to recall seeing a reference somewhere...
------------------
-
There is another name, Swastika, is what most people recognize.
I have heard the other name for the Budhist symbol only used in Context with the Swastika.
That is why I use "The Symbol of the German National Socialist Party"
The only thing I am really opposed to is Mark David Chapman, the guy that shot John Lennon.
I think the Swastika should be there, and people should be taught what it symbolized and what it cost.
Same with the Flag of the Confederate States of America. People who Proclaim themselves Rebels, yet have no clue what a "Real Rebel" was are IMHO Pathetic.
You can choose to express your individuallity be being one of the 1,000,000 people who got a pierced lip, eyebrow, nose, Etc. You can claim to be a Rebel, and not come from a State that attempted to Sucede from the Govenment of the United States, or a Church that was created to RECOGNIZE that people with darker colored skin are inferior to people with lighter colored skin. I don't really care.
The people who worry me, are the ones who don't just cling to the symbols based on ignorance, its the ones who believe that harming others because of some Belief in these symbols.
To show how bad things are, recently on Comedy Centrals "The Man Show" the hosts got a petition together, and got women to sign the Petition to End Womens Sufferage.
Most of us here know history, we want historical accuracy. I choose not to believe in these SYMBOLs hence they don't offend me.
I don't want to offend anyone, but I also don't want to be limited because of what may offend other people.
Personally I can do without "Swastikas" on my LW aircraft. But lets not forget they were there.
"Those who do not remember the past are condemd to repeat it!"
Lets remember they were there, and what they stood for, and lets make an effort to never let something like this happen again.
Promote Information, help stamp out ignorance.
------------------
"I could feel the 20MM Cannon impacting behind me so I made myself small behind the pilot armor" Charlie Bond AVG
-
Well the old discussion again. Just stating my opinion here:
The swastica is a very old symbol used by many cultures long time ago. It has been used in Europe and some countries of Asia as a symbol for the sun. Some politicians of my country used it for their perverted political ideas and therefore - especially here in Germany - some politicans think they have to ban the symbols of former agression of our country. Strange! Literature, insignias and other stuff are forbidden by law but it is our history. We have to deal with it and we have to know it. Anybody who is intelligent enough and who has read "Mein Kampf" and reads it related to history will see the perversion of the political ideas of the author and his regime.
Alas not many will have the possibility to read it and make their mind up. If some of those dumb people would have done earlier, maybe they would not have become followers of a long dead political idea.
Well, nothing more to say. Maybe just that not allowing something to a person will raise his interest and non-reflected thinking about history.
Check 6
Werewo
JG 301 "Heimatverteidigung"
(Originally the name has been "Das Reich", but we changed it in order not to offend anyone)
-
Whats this talk about being offended by a painted symbol on an airplane. It's a game, it should have been realistic as possible together with the markings. If swastika offends some, the usaf star should offend germans as those were flying over Dresden at the end of the war when that civilian city, without any military significance, was fire bombed for a couple of days by waves of bombers. Hundreds of thousands of civilians who fled to that city perished in the inferno.
The confederate flag is not illegal yet, the loudmouths at the naacp are boycotting the state of South Carolina because that flag is the official state flag and it is supposedly offending to them. What is the naacp gonna do, boycott the state? why not show some black solidarity and have all negros move out of the state? great! I'll pack up in a minute and move there as that state will become the safest and nicest place to live in the whole country. They recently held a protest rally in SC, whining and whining about evil flag. So few days after that, on oct16, a mob of more than a dozen Blacks attacked two Whites, Troy Knapp, 35, and Gary Thornburg, 34, injuring Thornburg and leaving Knapp in a coma. "Yeah, we are going to get us a white boy" the mob of blacks screamed. Knapp and Thornburg were riding their bikes several blocks from the school when they a Black mob attacked them. Of course you haven't said a word about this hate crime, the controlled media makes sure only the facts that fit in are reported, imagine if a group of skinheads attacked a black, all you would hear is shrieking about hate and white supremacy, Clinton would gave his radio address and condemn white racism, Janet Reno would say she was sending the FBI to assist with fighting the white supremacist hate group.
But two attacked were white boys, it wasn't reported, so don't worry about it, it wasn't a hate crime.
I noticed Downtown speak so passionately about hate, I wonder if he is outraged about this act of hatred.
-
Sigh.
Pyro, please remove this thread. I regret having started it.
ko
-
I really dont care much whether the plane
has em or not. I don't spend much time in
the external view anyway ( I do rem the older
versions of Warbirds had an X on the tail to simulate the swastika but it was removed around 1.11 or so). As long as the cockpit looks cool, the sounds are good (or customizable),and the flight model's good, who cares what it looks like from the outside. It's not worth offending anyone over a minor detail.
------------------
Tonight, it ain't right
I got to have me a week.
But I'll be back for you jack and I'll let the machine speak! Thats right Thats right (Maniac Mechanic ZZTop)
-
Werewolf, there is a huge difference between the the US star and the swastika. The swastika is a political logo, not a country logo or flag, IE you don't see P51's flying around with the GOP symbol on it etc etc. If the LW had the German flag colors on their a/c I bet you it would be in this simm and no one would care.
Personally, I would like a simm that takes just as much care in the accuracy of their art work as they do in their FM's. I learned alot about the differences in fighting styles because of decent FM's offered by WB/AH and I wish I could say the same about period camo schemes and a/c markings. The swastika is a small point though, and since we all know what it looked like and where it was located, I wouldn't care too much if they put it on or not. I would not be comfortable knowing that I would be offending someone, and if that was the case I'd say remove it. It's a cool looking logo though (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) to bad the nazi's thought so too.
-
Well Guys I've been quite about this subject,but it interested me a great amount.
The Swastika was the symbol of Nazi Germany,but not of the Luftwaffe , it was put there by order of their Fuhrer who ,sorry to say, was a complete Nut. Only to honor himself , his party and his regime, not the country it represented and the hard working people who designed it and built it. So it has come to me that people don't want to be reminded of, everytime they go up, meet a FW , 109 or 262 they're looking at the Symbol for our modern time of a Murderous, Racist, Killing regime. So it should be either by choice of modifying the artwork or not putting it at all beacuse it is not an essential part of play or tactical importance to put it just history that has past,should not be repeated and not part of a game.
On another note THIS AIN'T HISTORY THIS IS A FLIGHT SIM/GAME, so we got plenty of sources saying how and where this happens, in fact I'm begging to think the HIstory CH has some type of addiction to Germany and the regime they had during WWII.
I'm not in any movement I'm not a commie I'm not a member of any group biased toward any race, in fact I'm white, but don't care much about this whole dilema I just want a good FM , nice artwork and I'll die "Virtually" (let me specify) happy.
G bye take care and LONG LIVE THE BISHOPS DAMNIT!!!!!
-
First of all: The swastika *was* the symbol of Germany under Nazi rule, *not* just the NSDAP. The official German state flag (under Nazi rule) was red with a withe circle in it and a black swastika in the circle.
Reading some of the posts in this thread I think we should enable swastikas for SOME people as it seems that that symbol fits their beliefs. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Of course I agree that there's more forms of racism than just white racism but I don't wanna start this discssion cause it leads nowhere and can get ugly real soon.
Let's just say that a missing swastika will in no way lessen the fun/enjoyment we get out of a flight sim like AH and so if people are offended by it (for good reasons) leave the swastikas out for christ's sake!
Now...when do I get my 190????
Sascha JG 77 "Herz As!"
-
Every time this issue comes up, idiots start spouting off philosophical issues and all that jazz. It's not a choice by HTC saying they do or don't find swastikas offensive, it's a legal strategy so they can have the game playable by Germans. Philosphy, right, wrong, my toaster don't farking work, it's all irrelevant. If you would like to see it changed, go to Germany, get yerself elected to ...uh...whatever they have there, be it Congress/Senate/Parliament, and complain there. It won't do you any good of course, but at least it'd be the correct forum. It merits no more discussion than that. do we really have to do this EVERYTIME?
Just goes to show that those who are ignorant of history are damned to repeat it (even worse they think they are being original (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)). And the rest of us are doomed to suffer it.
------------------
TKoKFKA-OZDS-
-
This thread is locked.
After reading this thread, it should be apparent why we don't put swastikas on our planes. International legalities is only a small piece of it.
------------------
Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations