Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: MarkVZ on March 11, 2000, 12:35:00 PM
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(http://www.brooks.af.mil/HSC/HO/CG4A.jpg)
The CG-4A was the most widely used U.S. troop/cargo glider of WW II. Flight testing began in 1942 and eventually more than 12,000 CG-4As were procured. Fifteen companies manufactured CG-4As, with 1,074 built by the Waco Aircraft Company of Troy, Ohio. The CG-4A was constructed of fabric-covered wood and metal and was crewed by a pilot and copilot. It could carry 13 troops and their equipment or either a jeep, a quarter-ton truck, or a 75mm howitzer loaded through the upward-hinged nose section. C-46s and C-47s usually were used as tow aircraft. CG-4As went into operation in July 1943 during the Allied invasion of Sicily. They participated in the D-Day assault on France on June 6, 1944, and in other important airborne operations in Europe and in the China-Burma-India Theater. Until late in the war, gliders were generally considered expendable in combat and were abandoned or destroyed after landing.
SPECIFICATIONS
Span: 83 ft. 8 in.
Length: 48 ft. 4 in.
Height: 12 ft. 7 in.
Weight: 7,500 lbs. loaded
Armament: None
Engine: None
Cost: $24,000
PERFORMANCE
Maximum towed speed: 150 mph.
I think troop gliders would be a very neat addition to this game. They were so widely used, so effective, yet ignored by every WWII
sim. You all remember the scene in Saving Private Ryan with the field of landed troop gliders? Those were all CG4A's, and were very widely used during the D-Day invasion. They were towed by C47's, sometimes two at a time. A wire wrapped around the tow-line provided communication between the tow-plane and the glider.
Imaging this:
A C47 or group of C47's carrying 10 troops each, plus towing an optional troop glider that can carry 13 troops than can be joined in flight, and released by the pilot of the glider. The glider maneuvers the best it can through the enemy aircraft, and skids to a stop on the field. Once the glider has stopped, the troops make thier run for the tower, while the C-47 can still drop it's troops the conventional way. This protects the troops on their way down, yet the glider is still very vunerable to enemy aircraft. The glider in tow can also be shot at when en-route to its destination, which also gives the 47 pilot a little cover (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) If the barracks are down at a field, no troop gliders can be taken. I think that this would add spice to the game, and be historically accurate at the same time. I applaud AH for adding planes that haven't been seen in other sims, and I think that this would be a very neat addition.
As for doccumentation, my local branch of the Yankee Air Force is restoring a CG4A to static condition. (a restored, flying CG4A, yeah right) I could obtain several photos of the instrument panel and other parts, and dimensioned drawings for use of modelling one here, so that wouldn't be a problem.
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Mark VanZwoll
33rd Strike Group
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Effective? I dunno, I've always read differently...
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wouldnt this remove the only effective flight profile for the c47...
It is interesting i agree but isnt it more of a curiosity? until we have to cross oceans and rivers i mean..once we have to land heavier equipment then it would be interesting.
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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew
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read too it was a dubious achievement ... the loss rate among troops was so high it could not have been justified too long, as for waco weren't they specialised in furniture before getting government contracts ? pilot and copilot crashed by the jeep or other heavy equipment that came loose forward at 'landing' were commonplace.
snag 340 RAF
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Waco also made nice line of biplanes- indeed, classics. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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wouldnt this remove the only effective flight profile for the c47?
Not neccesarilly, because the 47 is required to tow it. People would also still be able to make C47 runs without the glider if they didn't like keeping the 150mph max tow speed. The advantages of the glider would be keeping the troops invincible until they were on the ground, and increasing the number of troops carried to 23; 10 in the 47 and 13 in the troop glider. It would be a slow flight to the field, but that would be offset by the good chances of taking the field because of more troops onboard.
the loss rate among troops was so high it could not have been justified too long
Most of the loss rate was attributed to not having proper landing grounds. Our intelligence was lacking, plus, the Germans filled open fields with upright branches, posts, etc. dubbed "Rommel's Asparagus" which was to tear the gliders apart when they landed, which really did work. In Aces High we do not have such things on the landing zones, making the operation much safer. One will, however, have to dodge the barracks, tower, etc. when landing. Overloading wont be a problem with just troops loaded. Heck, you could even give the troops a jeep to drive out, which WAS done. It was common to tie a rope via a pulley to the canopy frame, and when the glider landed, the jeep would pull out, and at the same time opening the front canopy with the rope. A quick cut of the rope and the troops were on their way. Interesting story, but I don't think we need a jeep in AH (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
This is just an idea that I thought would add more appeal and uniqueness to this already great game.
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Mark VanZwoll
33rd Strike Group
[This message has been edited by MarkVZ (edited 03-11-2000).]
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I have an idea (like we don't have enuff already) it would be great to have one of the M152 "willy's jeep" with 2x.50's on the back that could be manned by the pilot to provide cover for his drunks in action. That could be set up as a loadout option.
In the glider you could have:
a. 10 troops
b. 5 troops and a jeep which the glider pilot could man once he/she successfully landed on the enemy field.
but in order to use the glider, you have to have someone already flying a goon, so that would actually improve the team concept.
The idea would take some work and planning, but sounds like a neat idea to me.
[This message has been edited by SC-GManMP (edited 03-11-2000).]
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I read in one of my books; Jane's Fighting aircrafts of World War II (Its a reprint of the "1945/46, All the worlds aircrafts" apparently), that the russians produced a licensed built C47 (called PS-84), which had "fixed machine-gun in nose, machine-gune in turret above cabin and two beam guns, one on each side of the fuselage".
There is a picture of it (looks just like a c47 just with guns (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)). It would sure make the trips bringing troops to bases more interesting, both for the C47/PS-84 and figher pilots. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Ltn. Snefens
RO, Lentolaivue 34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34)
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Well, you get the idea (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
(http://www.eden.com/~nkp/SWMGLIDE.GIF)
Please consider this HTC, it's something that's never been seen in a WWII sim, and played a significant part in the war.
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Mark VanZwoll
33rd Strike Group
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There was also the British Horsa glider, as shown here:
(http://www.lcars.eu.org/beverly.hughes33/Dc3a.jpg)
The Luftwaffe had their troop gliders too; the Gotha GO 242 mainly. Their success led the US to making thier own.
(http://www.unsere-luftwaffe.de/archiv/transflz/go223.jpg)
(http://www.unsere-luftwaffe.de/archiv/transflz/go2421.jpg)
There are a wealth of troop gliders to chose from, although it would look kinda strange to be towing a luftwaffe glider with a C47 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I think the CG4A would be ideal. I could get many doccumentation photos of a CG4A for the use of modelling one. It would be pretty simple to model. The CG4A only had the 5 basic instruments, with a forked control column coming down from the top of the canopy, with two round yokes. The cargo area is basically a box with bench seats on both sides with an open floor. With no engine to deal with, the flight model would be simple, and it would be just the artwork that would require much work, and I bet superfly and natedog would make quick work of it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Mark VanZwoll
33rd Strike Group
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sweet
I'd fly'em from time to time, specially if I can take a howitzer and man the howitzer after I get out of the glider =)
but, would the glider pilot have to join the parade at takeoff or could he wait and join just before the tow aircraft got to the target area?
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I was thinking, that you could join in flight like gunners, but maybe only within 10 minutes of the C47 takeoff. This would keep people from getting them right over the dropzone, yet not make it impossible to get into one. I don't think they would be used much if you had to start on the runway behind the C-47. Joining up to 10 minutes into the C-47's flight would make it easier to join, yet prevent them from popping up right over the drop zone. This does mean that before the C47 accepts the request for a glider, he MUST slow up, for the max speed for towing gliders was listed as 150. With joining in flight it means you will only have to fly part of the flight at 150. The glider pilot should have no control of his glider until he releases, and it just follows the 47, because controlling the glider in real life on a towline was very tough, and any mistake could bring down both planes. I also think that people would enjoy taking a break for a few minutes the C47 does all the flying (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Once the glider pilot (Or towplane) releases, the glider gets control. I think that these would be effective, because the troops are invincible until they reach the ground, plus the 47 would still have it's 10 troops to drop conventionally. I think that it would solve the problem of vulchers popping up at the last second to vulch the troops, because the troops are in the CG4A until they reach the ground, and the glider pilot can land as close to the map-room as he wants based on his skill. They will be huge (84 foot span), slow targets, so as soon as you're off the tow-line you'd better dive like crazy to get your troops on the ground. With a good fighter cap, glider operations should have good chances of getting the field. If the glider gets critically damaged (loses a wing, it's horizontal stab, etc) then it auto-releases from the tow-plane or something. If the C47 gets damaged, the glider pilot can detach at will. They could also be used for strat. Maybe if you put a glider down near the city the troops will damage the city? Just a thought.
This can also work well for the fighter jocks, because if you intercept a 47/CG4A combo, you're almost guaranteed 2 kills, But with a good cap that shouldn't happen.
What is your opinion on troop gliders HTC?
I think it would be neat to see a convoy of C47's/CG4A's headed to a field (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Mark VanZwoll
33rd Strike Group
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Sorry, with the games strat and spawing as it is, and goons only surviving flying at 30ft, i can not see how this is even half ways viable. You can not tow it below radar..
Certainly the second pilot would be better served in another goon.(if you think that numbers of grunts is a signifigant issue on base capture...) If you were going to tow it behind a bomber and drop them down to take a base that has been bombed maybe..Or drop a mg jeep 5 ka away to drive up and supress the spawn point for the goon maybe..
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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew
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The main purpose for gliders was that Troops couldn't hear them coming in... If they saw them, however, they were toast. Right now, you cannot hear 47's coming in either... so what are we gaining with gliders? It was a cool show on the History Channel, but I don't think it would be quite as neet in the arena.
I just can't see HTC implimenting an aircraft that was designed to be ditched.
AKDejaVu
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The Luftwaffe had their troop gliders too; the Gotha GO 242 mainly. Their success led the US to making thier own.
Actually.. "Perceived success" would be a better term. The German's suffered extremely high casualties the only time they used gliders in a major offensive. The didn't use them again. The US didn't know this.. they only knew that the German's took a base and that they used gliders to do it.
AKDejaVu
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Oh well, it was just an idea (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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Mark VanZwoll
33rd Strike Group
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I like the idea and would also fly them. I especially like the idea of being able to hop into a jeep with a 50. after landing.
eskimo
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Gotta agree with Pongo on this one. It sounds like a neat idea, but under the current plan it would be tough to make work. Now, if the gliders could carry jeeps with .50's mounted on them, we have a great idea. Troops? Keep the C-47's. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Just a question
Is there any way to carry Panzer-IV by the transport plane or glider?
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Is there any way to carry Panzer-IV by the transport plane or glider?
Any aeronautical engineers out there that care to tackle this one? We need the weight of the tank and someone to figure out the wingspan required to keep one of these babies airborne (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Right off hand, my thought is that you can get one of these to fall alot easier than you can get it to fly. Hook a chute to it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
AKDejaVu
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Sure weighs 25tons or so. Need a C17 or C5 some thing of that class. It would fit in a herc but I dont know about the weight.Maybe a Herc could lift a Pz IVh but I am sceptical.
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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew
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Glad to hear you again MarkVZ !
I'd like the idea, not in the MA (too many respawns) but this would be very cool in the Special Event Arena / Historic Aena...
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Saw/Saintaw
KNIGHT'S FINEST FLYING BRICK
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/dorasaw.gif)
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
"Firepower Mate, that is what separates the men from the boys..."
[This message has been edited by Saintaw (edited 03-14-2000).]
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Sorry guys, couldn't let this fall off the edge of the board (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
<punt!>
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Mark VanZwoll
33rd Strike Group
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<punt> again
I think that it would be cool if HTC beat the immediate competition to something like this, as well as seaplanes.
Kudos to HTC for their recent efforts in Aces High. They have come a very long way. <S>
-MarkVZ-
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The Germans had their giant glider that was later converted to a heavy transport by adding about six engines to it. I saw one picture of it unloading a light tank of some sort. By the by, I think gliders have a place in AH, but only if they carry something besides troops. Artie, a jeep, or perhaps a very light armored vehicle. Otherwise, I think simply taking a second C47 at low alt would serve you better than the C-47/glider pair.
An interesting historical note about the Allied glider-borne troops. Unlike the paratroopers, the glider troops did not get hazardous duty pay of any kind, even on D-day. Their casualties really were horrendous, too.
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Sabre, a.k.a. Rojo
(S-2, The Buccaneers)
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geeez, I started reading this & realised I had read it all about a year ago (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
more planes, better...always (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Saw
[Mass]
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
Actually.. "Perceived success" would be a better term. The German's suffered extremely high casualties the only time they used gliders in a major offensive. The didn't use them again. The US didn't know this.. they only knew that the German's took a base and that they used gliders to do it.
AKDejaVu
I read that differently. Weren't the German gliders used at the very onset of the war? Wasn't the one operation you mention a surprise attack? I don't believe that details of the attack gave the losses due to aircraft deficiencies, but because the 110's (I think they were) did not succeed at their assignment (AA supression).
I don't think the LWKommandeur (whatever) would have repeated the same tactic any time soon, but not because the gliders failed. One guy flew into a mountain, didn't he (low ceiling)? The other guys got into a gun fight at the debarkation point? Their tactical advantage was gone, also, because of a timing error. The element of surprise gone (but the gliders had delivered them) they were easy targets.
For some reason I didn't recall this event as being totally catostrophic? I thought the target in question was lightly defended, and the place was taken after a harrowing gun battle!?!
In honor of the Germans having 'created' jump troops (they used them first), shouldn't we be using Iron Annies?
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Voss
13th TAS
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As I recal the Brits had the Hamilcar, which was designed to carry a Locust light tank. That might be a really fun addition to the game. Just my thoughts
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How come no ones mentioned the Me 323?, the second largest glider in the War, capable of taking 80 troops (more in an emergency) and a light tank?
they even made a six motored, Jato asisted powered version.
It was used at both Stalingrad and Tunisia, a huge lumbering target as a glider, but the powered version was quite heavily defensivly armed.
[This message has been edited by Seeker (edited 03-30-2001).]
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punt
be neat to be tow plane, then glider pilot once released, then the m3, m8, ost or pnzr driver once you land them - be tricky with all the trees, maybe mega perk points for your troubles. someone join you like gunner to be one of them..
or it'd be neater to shoot them down :)
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maybe you could make it that the 47 has to be empty to tow a glider. that way the c47's still play a roll in capturing a field.
So instead of only one person capturing a field it takes 2, a C47 pilot and a glider pilot.
...just a thought