Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Capt. Pork on June 20, 2004, 07:34:25 PM
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Are there any Israelis who support this idea?
If so, what are their motivations? I've heard all sorts of speculation regarding the military industry being held back by contractual obligations to the states but haven't been able to find any concrete evidence.
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the left will be growing pot plants on mars before we cut off aid to Israel
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Don't think Israel could support it's military spending without US aid - I don't have the figures but as a percentage of GNP it's huge.
Without it's military advantage could Israel continue to survive? Something I doubt unless US guarantee's it's borders which I don't see happening anytime soon.
Question is will USA contine to support aid to Israel to the extent it does forever? Doubt it and without that aid the next diaspora will start.
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Israel spent $8.97 billion in 2002
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/spending.htm
LOL. After the US, Norway spends the most money per capita in the world on the military. :rofl
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Originally posted by Eagler
the left will be growing pot plants on mars before we cut off aid to Israel
:aok :rofl
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Israel spent $8.97 billion in 2002
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/spending.htm
LOL. After the US, Norway spends the most money per capita in the world on the military. :rofl
Wait a second now Nilson...
Israel's population is about 6.1 mil
Norway is about 4.5 mil
Israel spends right around 9 billion a year on defense, to Norway's 3 and change.
Or are you just being funny?
If so, then:
:rofl
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woops, forgot to say within nato. :D
btw, its 4,2 billion USD in 2004
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Given the way they bully us around it might be nice to rattle their cage a bit. We ARE the sole reason they're not treading water in the med. Might be nice if our greatest friends and allies in the Middle east that once in a while :lol
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I met a few israelis for the first time down in Brazil recently, and i was a little shocked. Every person, male and female, has to spend a minimum of 2.5 yrs in the Army as soon as they graduate. After that, they are in the reserves until age 42. (But thats besides the point).
Anywho, the two I spoke to had seen combat against palestinians, and they had some not-to-pleasant things to say about that.
The US needs to fund Israel. They are fighting for their lives over there. But at least you know the money isnt going to waste. The Israeli military is one of the best, if not the best trained force in the world.
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It used to be that we gave about 3 billion a year to Israel, and 3 billion a year to the Arabs (with most of this money going to Egypt).
Do we still give with equal generosity to each side?
-Sik
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Israel spent $8.97 billion in 2002
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/spending.htm
LOL. After the US, Norway spends the most money per capita in the world on the military. :rofl
hehe watch boys in white sweaters, they are from militant nation :D
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Originally posted by Sikboy
It used to be that we gave about 3 billion a year to Israel, and 3 billion a year to the Arabs (with most of this money going to Egypt).
Do we still give with equal generosity to each side?
-Sik
Miko had nice post on this. He explained how current situation brings benefits for US.
Its just normal , that US do support both sides at war. They did it several times in the past.
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Thats unfair. The Egyptians are not at war with Isreal and have not been for 30 years.
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It's the price we payed to get them to stop going to war with Israel.
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Yup. Wasnt that Carter, one of the Presidents most despised by this board. Who knew the Isrealis would squander that opertunity so badly.
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LOL. Yeah, it's ALL the Israelis fault, isn't it?
Takes two to Tango, though, doesn't it?
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Cutting financial support for Israel will show weakness.
Weakness = more attacks.
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Originally posted by Toad
LOL. Yeah, it's ALL the Israelis fault, isn't it?
that's pretty much how the entire world sees it (outside of israel and the US)
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Originally posted by xrtoronto
that's pretty much how the entire world sees it (outside of israel and the US)
when will the world stand up and fight all those Israeli hijackers and suicide bombers?
everyone knows the Jews wont stop attacking Egypt and all their Arab neighbors until the Arabs are whiped out. In fact, Israeli doctrine calls for the Arabs to be "driven into the sea":lol
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Originally posted by xrtoronto
that's pretty much how the entire world sees it (outside of israel and the US)
have something to due with their history of hating Jewish ppl?
one generalization deserves another..
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nuke: ask your own government why they didn't veto the last of 87 resolutions against israel (just 2-3 weeks ago)?
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Originally posted by Eagler
one generalization deserves another..
i should have been clearer...
as per the UN
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4.5 million people in all of Norway? Thats enough for a good size town ;)
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Originally posted by xrtoronto
nuke: ask your own government why they didn't veto the last of 87 resolutions against israel (just 2-3 weeks ago)?
okay, after your amazing explaination, I have changed my mind and now realize it's all Israel's fault.
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Israel is so uncivilized, that's why foreigners can't travel there without getting their heads sawed off.
Israel is an evil society, that's why when people get blown up on buses, it's usually Jews responsible. Jews and Israel need to be stopped before their radical ideas spread!
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Originally posted by NUKE
okay, after your amazing explaination, I have changed my mind and now realize it's all Israel's fault.
you didnt answer my question nuke...why did your own government not veto the last resolution against israel?
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Originally posted by Toad
It's the price we payed to get them to stop going to war with Israel.
what you say are words, how were these expensive pressented to wide public
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Originally posted by xrtoronto
you didnt answer my question nuke...why did your own government not veto the last resolution against israel?
okay, we didn't veto it because we realize that everything is Israel's fault. Is that what you wanted to hear?
You seem ignorant.
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
Cutting financial support for Israel will show weakness.
Weakness = more attacks.
that could force them to think if arogance and stupidity is good political attitude.
It will force them to seek solution and not to hide problems.
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Originally posted by AKCasca
4.5 million people in all of Norway? Thats enough for a good size town ;)
Yup...like it that way. longer coastline than the african continent and small population = not crowded :aok
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Originally posted by xrtoronto
nuke: ask your own government why they didn't veto the last of 87 resolutions against israel (just 2-3 weeks ago)?
Since Nuke doesnt have any clue i will give you answer.
Because that resolution doesnt order anything to Israel.
Its only something like.: Hey Israel, we see some problems at your side as well.
And because US is under political preasure coz of Iraq, Veto sutch resolition could harm Mr. Bush baadly.
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lada... have you ever considered moving to at least a semi important country so that you could have even a minor say in things?
lazs
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Originally posted by xrtoronto
that's pretty much how the entire world sees it (outside of israel and the US)
Well, sure. Folks that "don't want to get involved" always seek a simplistic viewpoint to dismiss a problem.
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Originally posted by lada
that could force them to think if arogance and stupidity is good political attitude.
It will force them to seek solution and not to hide problems.
Eh...? Anyone else wanna take a crack at this.
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Originally posted by _Schadenfreude_
Without it's military advantage could Israel continue to survive? Something I doubt unless US guarantee's it's borders which I don't see happening anytime soon.
Oh, I don't know about that. :) Recall the 1948 war which occurred when Israel became a nation. Who helped them then? Certainly not the Brits, the Brits gave moral support and some military support to the Arabs.
As best as I recall, the US didn't provide military support to Israel in 1948. And when the Arabs closed, with women in full ululation, the Isralies shot their knickers off.
In short, no one expected the Jews to survive and yet they did. They are a very determined group of people with a modern, technological society. Compare the societies of Arabia and Israel.
The only time the Arabs have had reasonable success against Israel occurred when the Soviets invested sizeable sums in Syria and Egypt.
curly
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Originally posted by NUKE
Israel is so uncivilized, that's why foreigners can't travel there without getting their heads sawed off.
Israel is an evil society, that's why when people get blown up on buses, it's usually Jews responsible. Jews and Israel need to be stopped before their radical ideas spread!
i say nuke us
:D
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Originally posted by Flyboy
i say nuke us
:D
Nah - some nice vacation ("holiday" for the Eurotypes) property in that area. ;)
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and we have the hottest girls
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Yup...like it that way. longer coastline than the african continent and small population = not crowded :aok
and the water is what? 10*C? :p
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Originally posted by Flyboy
and we have the hottest girls
you have that and so much more. God bless your great nation
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Originally posted by Toad
Well, sure. Folks that "don't want to get involved" always seek a simplistic viewpoint to dismiss a problem.
My countrymen have been involved physically in Mid east peace for probably 50 years. Your "getting involved" in the Isreali occupation of Palistine by providing helicopter gunships.
Isreals problem for the last 25 years has not been a human wave of syrians or egyptians. Its been Isreal stealing land year after year from the palistinians. Outside the lawfull borders established when Isreal was founded by UN mandate.
How do you reconcile that Toad? You always ignore it and drag these discussions to something else. But Isreal has created its own security situation. And the US could solve it in a pen stroke.
'if you do not pull out of the palistinian territories and return soveriegnty to the Palistinians as was done for you..we will not send you any more military assistance. If you still persist in oppressing those people we will put in place UN trade sanctions."
Or even easier. get less involved and stop vetoing the worlds attempts to reign in Isreal.
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They do have the hottest girls..or they did in 1988 anyway.
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Originally posted by Pongo
My countrymen have been involved physically in Mid east peace for probably 50 years. Your "getting involved" in the Isreali occupation of Palistine by providing helicopter gunships.
Isreals problem for the last 25 years has not been a human wave of syrians or egyptians. Its been Isreal stealing land year after year from the palistinians. Outside the lawfull borders established when Isreal was founded by UN mandate.
How do you reconcile that Toad? You always ignore it and drag these discussions to something else. But Isreal has created its own security situation. And the US could solve it in a pen stroke.
'if you do not pull out of the palistinian territories and return soveriegnty to the Palistinians as was done for you..we will not send you any more military assistance. If you still persist in oppressing those people we will put in place UN trade sanctions."
Or even easier. get less involved and stop vetoing the worlds attempts to reign in Isreal.
you are so ignorant on the issue, it's not even worth arguing with you.
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Well one of us certainly is.
Its simple. Are Isreali troops and settlements in Palistinian territories?
Are they killing Palistinains to maintain those invasions? Even this fence that is going up? Why is it not along the border of isreal? Why is it in the occupied territories?
You dont have a clue.
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Originally posted by Pongo
Well one of us certainly is.
Its simple. Are Isreali troops and settlements in Palistinian territories?
Are they killing Palistinains to maintain those invasions? Even this fence that is going up? Why is it not along the border of isreal? Why is it in the occupied territories?
You dont have a clue.
you dont have a clue. How do you think Israel gained that land?
By the way, it was never "Palestinian" land you dolt.
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Originally posted by Pongo
My countrymen have been involved physically in Mid east peace for probably 50 years. Your "getting involved" in the Isreali occupation of Palistine by providing helicopter gunships.
Isreals problem for the last 25 years has not been a human wave of syrians or egyptians. Its been Isreal stealing land year after year from the palistinians. Outside the lawfull borders established when Isreal was founded by UN mandate.
How do you reconcile that Toad? You always ignore it and drag these discussions to something else. But Isreal has created its own security situation. And the US could solve it in a pen stroke.
'if you do not pull out of the palistinian territories and return soveriegnty to the Palistinians as was done for you..we will not send you any more military assistance. If you still persist in oppressing those people we will put in place UN trade sanctions."
Or even easier. get less involved and stop vetoing the worlds attempts to reign in Isreal.
Hi pongo.
belive it or not most of the israelies support the idea of getting out of MOST of the occupied territories.
but you must understand that it is not that simple and it will take much more then a "pen stroke".
if we will pull out of the occupied territories it will create several potentional catastrophic results. this is why it takes so much time and must be taken one small step at a time.
there are too many fanatics and just plain morons on both sides that acn screw this all procces.
condemn us, frankly i dont care. what the army is doing in thwe occupied territories saves dozens of people a day.
lastly- feel free to correct my horrible spelling and grammer :)
Edit:
pongo and nuke, one of you must change his avatar
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Ah...so Nuke.
When someone drives a bulldozer through your house, you'll say..it was never my land?
The jews and arabs were getting on reasonably well in that part of the world until 'Israel' was created.
But here's a question for you, Nuke. If you had to say something in defence of the Palestinians...what would it be?
Ravs
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Flyboy...what would those potential catastrophic results be and why?
Ravs
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How do the illegal Isreali settlements save lives every day?
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Originally posted by Pongo
How do the illegal Isreali settlements save lives every day?
Pongo, easy for you to say living in Canada, far from Arab suicide freaks.
All safe and secure up in Canada, making judgments with no clue. Nice.
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Originally posted by NUKE
Nuke, easy for you to say living in America, far from Arab suicide freaks.
All safe and secure up in America, making judgments with no clue. Nice.
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Originally posted by NUKE
you dont have a clue. How do you think Israel gained that land?
By the way, it was never "Palestinian" land you dolt.
Where did the dolt thing come from?
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Originally posted by Flyboy
and the water is what? 10*C? :p
In the summer its 20-25 so perfect for swimming and in the winter its around 5 because of the golf stream :)
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Originally posted by NUKE
Pongo, easy for you to say living in Canada, far from Arab suicide freaks.
All safe and secure up in Canada, making judgments with no clue. Nice.
How is your view, safe and sound in America of what Palistinians under occupation do to thier occupiers more relevent then my view, safe and sound in Canada of what the occupiers do to thier victims?
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stop pinching my posts, Pongo!
Ravs
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Originally posted by ravells
Flyboy...what would those potential catastrophic results be and why?
Ravs
im just thinking about same ?
Can you give us some more info ?
I never hear my Israeli friends speak about sutch things. He only speak about many social problems... (coz he is professor of sociology :D )
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Originally posted by NUKE
Pongo, easy for you to say living in Canada, far from Arab suicide freaks.
So can you explain it to me, coz i realy didnt get it when i were much more closer, in Tunisia.
I guess you have some explanation from US, coz you have it right next to corner.
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Originally posted by ravells
Ah...so Nuke.
When someone drives a bulldozer through your house, you'll say..it was never my land?
The jews and arabs were getting on reasonably well in that part of the world until 'Israel' was created.
But here's a question for you, Nuke. If you had to say something in defence of the Palestinians...what would it be?
Ravs
really? The Arabs got along well with the Jews when the Jews couldn't exist there.
The Jews have 1 tenth of one percent of the land in the Middle East, yet that's too much for the Arabs.
Israel has a right to exist and more than a right to defend itself.
I can't believe people see Israel as the problem. The Arabs are the problem. Israel is a rational, peaceful country in the middle of the watermelon hole known as the middle east. Israel is the ONLY civilized nation there.
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um well, actually there were plenty of jews living there before Israel was created.
But it's not right to go and build settlements on other people's property in a very small country when the people you've displaced have nowhere to go, is it?
btw, you didn't answer my question.
Ravs
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pongo- i never said illegal settlements save israely lifes. read my post again.
ravells.
first, it will create a vacum in the evacuated territories which terrorist organizations will quickly fill (take for example the hizballa in S. lebanon)
the palestinian authority doesnt have the means and more importent the will to oppose those terrorists, soon after that they will start attacking israely cities.
another point, it will take a huge effort and time to move all the settlers, although illegal those are still part of our nation we will never hurt them.
the government will get deposed. (again)
and the most importent thing it will divide our allreay torn nation in too two major camps led bye extremists.
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Originally posted by ravells
um well, actually there were plenty of jews living there before Israel was created.
But it's not right to go and build settlements on other people's property in a very small country when the people you've displaced have nowhere to go, is it?
btw, you didn't answer my question.
Ravs
so if Jews lived there and no country existed ( Except Israel in ancient times) who's land is it?
Israel is the ONLY nation in history that existed there.
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Flyboy:
Good points, well made.
Isn't it the fact though, that the people who are building these settlements are extremist jews? There was a post up here recently, of an article written by Israeli soldiers who were shocked by how they saw Palestinians treated by settlers.
I understand your real politik argument, but it cuts both ways: if you move the settlers then maybe things will get better, but Israel has to take the risk?
I go back to my old solution: get Israelis and Palestinians in primary schools and mixing with each other from an early age, and then have places where they can be sent abroad to live with each other without the pressure of immediate problems. Maybe a few marriages between the two? Good things might happen.
Ravs
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Flyboy
Since there is problem regarding some piece of land, it seems to be quite more correct that nobody will live there rather that the one with bigger guns untill agreement will be reached.
What do you thing ?
Since you fear that terrorist will flee your cities, you can still build that wall on your territory.
Btw did you ever try to imagine how could palestine people act, if Israel will apology to them ? Because the key in annihilating militants is not in killing them, but to make them unpopular among people from whitch they are recruited.
Like in Iran.. Goverment often abuse word Islam, so Iranian doesnt reconize themself with islam. Once there will be big majority, goverment will become history.
Have been sutch ideas presented in Israel in past ?
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Originally posted by NUKE
so if Jews lived there and no country existed ( Except Israel in ancient times) who's land is it?
Israel is the ONLY nation in history that existed there.
BS
in acient times everything were own by monkeys
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Originally posted by ravells
Flyboy:
Good points, well made.
Isn't it the fact though, that the people who are building these settlements are extremist jews? There was a post up here recently, of an article written by Israeli soldiers who were shocked by how they saw Palestinians treated by settlers.
yes they are extremist and they do treat arabs worse then dogs :( they are one of the roots to the probelm and they must be moved. but it cant be done with just one swift blow, it will take time.
I go back to my old solution: get Israelis and Palestinians in primary schools and mixing with each other from an early age, and then have places where they can be sent abroad to live with each other without the pressure of immediate problems. Maybe a few marriages between the two? Good things might happen.
ahhh in a perfect world maybe :) dont take this the wrong way but its a naive sulotion.
there are few people (from both of the sides) that will allow it to their children, and those who will allow are the ones that allready recognized in the co-existence.
on a more optimistic note, your solution is allready applied- there are elemntry schools kinder gardens and seminars that have both israelies and palestinians, a friend of mine is flying to the US to take part in such seminar that discuss coexistence, in which she will sleep with palestinian girls in the same room for allmost a month with no grown ups from both sides (she is 17).
i myself will join/ be drafted to the army in less then a year.
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Originally posted by lada
BS
in acient times everything were own by monkeys
Israel was the only nation ever established there.
Maybe monkeys owned the land you took over.
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Originally posted by lada
Flyboy
Since there is problem regarding some piece of land, it seems to be quite more correct that nobody will live there rather that the one with bigger guns untill agreement will be reached.
What do you thing ?
Since you fear that terrorist will flee your cities, you can still build that wall on your territory.
i think its not practical, sorry
Btw did you ever try to imagine how could palestine people act, if Israel will apology to them ? Because the key in annihilating militants is not in killing them, but to make them unpopular among people from whitch they are recruited.
Like in Iran.. Goverment often abuse word Islam, so Iranian doesnt reconize themself with islam. Once there will be big majority, goverment will become history.
Have been sutch ideas presented in Israel in past ?
lada, im sorry but i am having trouble understanding what you wrote, its probably a combination of a few typo's on your side and the "less then perfect" (:rolleyes: ) english on my side.
please rephrase your post.
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a friend of mine is flying to the US to take part in such seminar that discuss coexistence, in which she will sleep with palestinian girls in the same room for allmost a month with no grown ups from both sides (she is 17).
Lesbo sex! even better! ;)
Ravs
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Your being way to honest for some of your supporters here flyboy. Better edit some of that.
"condemn us, frankly i dont care. what the army is doing in thwe occupied territories saves dozens of people a day.
terrorism."
My point was that the Army is there because the settlements are there. The settlements are illegal and the centeral point of the conflict. I see that I am preaching to the converted though.
My stroke of the pen statment was in regards to how the US can influence Isreal to find leaverage to change this policy and withdraw.
I aggree with the concept of the wall. But i should be on the border not in the middle of the West Bank.
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damm you Ravs... dont speak about it or i will imagine those 2 big black Eyes and it will cause serious problem in my pants
chmmmmmm
edit: geeez.. imagine 4 big black eyes in one baaaad...
uuuuuuuuuu
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Originally posted by NUKE
Pongo, easy for you to say living in Canada, far from Arab suicide freaks.
All safe and secure up in Canada, making judgments with no clue. Nice.
LOL
nuke you live in Az (not downtown Tel Aviv)
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I have a question for Flyboy.
This is not directly related to this thread, but I wondered why some Jews don't like the existence of Israel?
Toronto had the worlds largest pro Israeli march recently and it was part of the news that night. Some Jews were speaking out against Israel. I didn't understand that.
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maybe they just want to be treated like everyone else?
Ravs
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Originally posted by Pongo
My countrymen have been involved physically in Mid east peace for probably 50 years.
Mine too. We're paying the Egyptians $1.3 Billion a year as part of the deal to get them to recognize Israel. A MAJOR step towards peace in the area wouldn't you say? Or have you forgotten how many times Egypt and Israel went at it all out despite the few Blue Berets on the lines? (BTW, US troopers did/do duty there too you know. One of my son's buddies just got back.)
And that $1.3 Billion is only the MILITARY aid. We also agreed to give them $815 million in economic support fund assistance --making Egypt the second largest regular recipient of conventional U.S. military and economic aid, after Israel. and we've been paying this much every year since the agreement.
We BOUGHT peace between Egypt and Israel. Something no Blue Berets were ever able to do, eh? But you gotta do what you gotta do and them as can DOES while them that can't DON'T.
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PongoHow do you reconcile that Toad? You always ignore it and drag these discussions to something else.
Wrong.
You either haven't read what I've said about it here or you have forgotten.
I'm on record as saying that Israel needs to move back to the initially established UN 1947 borders. Otherwise it's accepting the conquest of territory by force of arms. That's something the UN and the US has always opposed.
I was pretty suprised at Bush when he changed that stance recently.
I'm also on record as being in favor of cutting/stopping US aid to Israel.
In short, I haven't ignored it and my position is the same as yours.
Your either too forgetful to remember it or delusional.
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Both.
I gave full credit for the US settled peace between Isreal and Egypt. And disdain towards the Isrealies for squandering it.
You apperently dont think manning the front lines in the Golan and the Gaza strip count for anything for peace. None of that counts for anything. Only deep pockets uncle sam with is MAP loans means anything. Never mind that those same map lones are also part of the problem.
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Israel is evil, let's kill them before their evil message and doctrine spreads into the middle east!.
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Someone is lonely Toad. Tell him you love him.
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hi pongo.
that will be the right way to act if you want to see the situation degrades to chaos.
allso the main reason the army is deployed, is to stop terrorist infiltrating in to israel.
but you are right, the army is protecting those settlements, (with an abusred and ridiculous force) there are around 100 soldiers watching about 10 families. :(
those settlements have to go, and they WILL go, eventually.
you must understand the difficullty of uprooting them. and that it takes time.
xrtoronto.
those jews are part of the orthodox faction in the Judaism and they belive that the holyland must be kept untouched untill god approves, and every man maid action in the holyland prevents redemption. this is why they dont want israel to exist.
about 90% of the jews that lived in israel (the area not the country) before 1880 (this is when the first "ali'ya") where those jews, and they all lived in the 4 holy cities. where they dedicated theirs lifes for studying, and lived from donations.
thats only the tip of the iceberg, but i think it summarized the issue.
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Originally posted by NUKE
so if Jews lived there and no country existed ( Except Israel in ancient times) who's land is it?
Israel is the ONLY nation in history that existed there.
Completly wrong.
Proven by just reading the bible, what people occupied the holy land before the arrival of the jew ?
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Originally posted by Flyboy
those jews are part of the orthodox faction in the Judaism and they belive that the holyland must be kept untouched untill god approves, and every man maid action in the holyland prevents redemption. this is why they dont want israel to exist.
about 90% of the jews that lived in israel (the area not the country) before 1880 (this is when the first "ali'ya") where those jews, and they all lived in the 4 holy cities. where they dedicated theirs lifes for studying, and lived from donations.
thats only the tip of the iceberg, but i think it summarized the issue.
Really the tip of the Iceberg :)
Just put an Achkenaze and a Sépharade in the same room
:)
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lol, its been said before that for any 2 jews there are 3 different opinions
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Originally posted by Flyboy
pongo- i never said illegal settlements save israely lifes. read my post again.
ravells.
first, it will create a vacum in the evacuated territories which terrorist organizations will quickly fill (take for example the hizballa in S. lebanon)
i dont know but its better to bomb vacuum full of terrorist rather that villages full of people isnt it ?
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I remember a similar post on this topic about two months ago or so. Somebody mentioned something about us Military aid precluding the Israeli armed forces from installing certain improvements on the equipment they received.
Does anyone have a followup or a source on this statement?
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hi Capt. pork
the first thing that goes up my mind is the "LAVI" project - a israeli jet fighter that was developed up to the stage of a flying prototype (2 actually).
after a considerable preasure from the US the project was canceled.
which is a pitty IMHO, its such a beutiful plane.
(http://www.iaf.org.il/sip_storage/files/1/16091.jpg)
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I think the UN manning the front lines in Golan is like everything else they do. It'll work right up until the time the shooting starts again.
I think the "buyout" worked far better and with far greater overall effect.
Let's see... UNDOF (UNITED NATIONS DISENGAGEMENT FORCE) deployed to Syrian Golan Heights starting June 1974.
Given the history of the area, the continual wars that were fought by the Arabs against the Israelis do you think it was the UN forces in the Golan that stopped further wars?
Or do you think it was the fact that the Israelis stomped them in the Yom Kippur war that led to peace for a while?
Or do you think it was the US buying Egypt out of the Arab wars against Israel that finally brought an end to the wars? I mean, all the Arabs together couldn't do it. What hope did/does Syria have in the Golan without Egyptian support on another flank?
Besides, we do BOTH.
Since the inception of the Multinational Force and Observers in the Sinai, we've kept an infantry battalion, a support battalion and an HQ there. ~700+ men. Canada has ~30 there, btw.
So how about this. We'll buy Egypt out of the war business and keep ~700 guys in the Sinai. You guys go ahead and have YOUR taxpayers buy Syria out of the war business and keep a battalion in the Golan.
Sounds fair, right? Let me know when you get it done.
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Originally posted by Flyboy
hi Capt. pork
the first thing that goes up my mind is the "LAVI" project - a israeli jet fighter that was developed up to the stage of a flying prototype (2 actually).
after a considerable preasure from the US the project was canceled.
which is a pitty IMHO, its such a beutiful plane.
(http://www.iaf.org.il/sip_storage/files/1/16091.jpg)
Its very similary with Gripen. :)
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Originally posted by Flyboy
hi Capt. pork
the first thing that goes up my mind is the "LAVI" project - a israeli jet fighter that was developed up to the stage of a flying prototype (2 actually).
after a considerable preasure from the US the project was canceled.
which is a pitty IMHO, its such a beutiful plane.
(http://www.iaf.org.il/sip_storage/files/1/16091.jpg)
Bares a resemblence to the f-16, no?
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Toad. You have the whole world in your hands. Nothing anyone else does matters at all. You write a check and the worlds axis changes. Sorry I wasted my time in the middle east.
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Yeah, our taxpayers PAID (and are still paying) for the peace between Egypt and Israel AND our soldiers do the same type of peacekeeping duty there in the Sinai that the Canadians do in the Golan.
It must really bug you that we continually do more, eh?
Your time in peacekeeping operations has been matched by a huge number of American soldiers. Cripes, we've had 37,000 (or more) soldiers on UN peacekeeping duties in Korea for ~ 50 years.
I salute Canada and the rest for doing what they can. But the continual implication that the US doesn't contribute is very tiresome. We do quite a lot, in fact we do more; we do what others can't or won't.
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Originally posted by Pongo
Sorry I wasted my time in the middle east.
where have you been in ME ?
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Originally posted by lada
where have you been in ME ?
This question could be catastrophically misconstrued.
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With the Military? Around every hotspot.
As a civilian, I didn't go there.
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" salute Canada and the rest for doing what they can. But the continual implication that the US doesn't contribute is very tiresome. We do quite a lot, in fact we do more; we do what others can't or won't.
"
not as tiresome as your continued fabrication that I said any such thing. In fact I have repeatedly noted and defended the Camp David accords in these very threads on this very board.
So your talking out your back side agian. Your the person that has degenerated others contributions. Not me.
And if we are being honest Toad. Your country bought Egypt out of thier alliance to the USSR. Was it a great move..better for all involved? Typicall of US relations with third world countries? Yes. But very much in the US best interest. MAP loans that get funneled back to General Dynamics and Raytheon. Just dont start crying on me about how much the US contributes and how little respect they get.
I have been to Isreal, Egypt and Cypress.
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Originally posted by Pongo
[B ]MAP loans that get funneled back to General Dynamics and Raytheon. Just dont start crying on me about how much the US contributes and how little respect they get.
[/B]
This is the typical "Marshall Plan" dissing. "You only did for yourselves." This is your "respect" I guess.
Really? I guess then it wouldn't have been in the best interests of General Dynamics, Raytheon and the US taxpayer to spend the Egyptian MAP 1.3 BILLION per year since 1979 on upgrading our own forces? We could by F-22's, body armor or even better pay for our lower ranks maybe?
After, GD and Raytheon would have still got the money and the US taxpayer would be funding protection for our own forces.
That'd been the smarter way to go right?
Instead we spent it all to convince Egypt that recognizing Israel was the right thing to do to end the endless wars. But that was only in the "best interest of the US" right? I mean the Egyptians and Israelis and the rest of the world didn't want to see that happen, now did they?
BTW, I've been very close to all those countries and lots more in that region. Albeit it was at 30K, so I guess I didn't serve at all, did I?
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I didnt say you served or didnt serve. Its your repeatedly that has said others have done nothing..have your forgoten your pills or something?
And I do respect it. But I see it for what it is and you evidently dont. Its not like you spent 1.3 billion a year to educate the masses of Eqypt and feed the poor and all the things your hero George babbles about. You gave it to them so they could buy weapons from you to prop up thier regime. Like you prop up all regimes that meet your needs, regardless of thier civil rights record or thier democratic bent.
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Originally posted by Pongo
Its your repeatedly that has said others have done nothing..have your forgoten your pills or something?
Show me those quotes of mine, please. Or are you, in your inimitable phrasing, "talking out your back side agian"?
You gave it to them so they could buy weapons from you to prop up thier regime. Like you prop up all regimes that meet your needs, regardless of thier civil rights record or thier democratic bent.
If you're the student of the 78 peace accord, I suggest you go back and revisit that historic moment.
IIRC, Egypt wouldn't do the deal without the MAP. BTW, do you remember how long after the accord Sadat paid the price for peace with Israel?
So we were just "propping up Egypt"? Not trying to get a peace that would last in the Middle East?
Is that your new diss?
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No. It was a good deal. It was as much about bringing Eqypt under the US wing as it was bringing peace between them.
I never said there was anything wrong with that, its probably one of the major reasons its been so sucessful. But it is what it is Toad.
I have walked the ground where he was killed.
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Originally posted by Capt. Pork
This question could be catastrophically misconstrued.
LOL
:rofl
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Originally posted by Pongo
It was as much about bringing Eqypt under the US wing as it was bringing peace between them.
Please show ANY kind of documented support you can find for that statement.
Unless it's just "IMO".
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Flyboy, do you mind if I ask how old you are?
I hope not, 'cause I just did;)
Your statement that you will join/be drafted soon makes me think you are quite young....late teens, early twenties.
The reason I ask is simply that if you are indeed that young, I find your calmly presented arguments, and seeming grasp on the real world situation in your corner of the Globe to be rather reassuring.
The middle east sure could use a few more level headed, calm people .
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Well said.
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Originally posted by Toad
Please show ANY kind of documented support you can find for that statement.
Unless it's just "IMO".
Its self evident. You have the primary Soviet surrogate in the region switching sides and being under the US wing now for nearly 30 years. Cant believe your debating it or offended by it.
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Originally posted by Pongo
It was as much about bringing Eqypt under the US wing as it was bringing peace between them.
Apparently, in your opinion, the US was motivated equally by a desire to bring Egypt into the US sphere of influence as it was to find a way to end the continual Arab/Israeli wars.
You can't substantiate this other than to say it is "self-evident".
That's merely your opinion and you're entitled to it.
I'll disagree. I think the US, particularly Carter was motivated PRIMARILY to find a peaceful solution to the continual wars. A byproduct of that effort was to bring Egypt out of the Soviet sphere of influence.
But that's my "self-evident" opinion.
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That's a very interesting question... It was so "win win" in the view of the times that I find it difficult to assign more importance (from a policy point) between the two benefits.
1. Stabilizing a region of great international importance (ok... oil).
2. Poaching Soviet client states.
I think you're both equally right. It's self evident :p
-Sik
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Who determines the US goals in such a case?
Congress? The JCS? The President? The electorate?
I'd have to say Carter called the shots on this one. Anyone anywhere have any documentation from him about his goals for the Camp David Accords?
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I find this typical of debate with you lately Toad. You take an unqualified compliment and twist it into some kind of insult to the US.
You seem to have a great deal of dificulty accepting that the US (Carter included) do what is in thier countries own interest. Why should that be held against the US? I dont hold it agianst them. In this situation the US benifited greatly. This was a big chink out of the soviet armour that contributed to thier eventual collapse.
If you want to talk about things that Carter did that were of no real benifit to the US but only done for reasons of fairness. Look at Panama.
Only the two Bush presidents since Vietnam seem to do things internationaly that are not in the intrests of the US as a whole. Certainly Reagan..ruthless as any president ever. Was ruthless in persuing the goals of his country. Not his personal goals at the expense of his country.
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Who determines the goals? Why Zbigniew Brzazinski of course :)
Of course Mr. Brzazinski wasn't the architecht of Camp David, but he is representative of the multiple inputs which the administration operated under. I believe those in his camp would have pushed for this plan on the basis of poaching Soviet clients alone, without regard for stopping the violence.
But of course, there were other influences, but I don't think that any of them can just be wiped away with any ease.
-Sik
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Hi bluedog
im 17 now, will be 18 in november.
in israel every man and woman that come to the age of 18 has to join the army.
men have a 3year minimum and women 2years.
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Originally posted by Pongo
Ihave a great deal of dificulty accepting that
Actually, what I have a great deal of difficulty accepting is that you have any basis whatsoever for assigning equality to the two "intentions" of the US. Well, any basis other than opinion.
For example, Egypt clearly showed that it could be "bought"; money was what got the deal done.
So tell me why the US didn't just forget the peace initiative and buy them out of the Soviet orbit? Why bother getting the Israelis in on it at all.
No matter what we do in the US some will find a way to try and tarnish it, blemish it, cheapen it or disdain it. The past "Marshall Plan" threads are typical. Of course, they never explain why we didn't just spend the money here.
You ever hear of the "Friendship Train" started by Drew Pearson? What ulterior motives did we have there, eh?
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Originally posted by Toad
For example, Egypt clearly showed that it could be "bought"; money was what got the deal done.
So tell me why the US didn't just forget the peace initiative and buy them out of the Soviet orbit? Why bother getting the Israelis in on it at all.
Why drop the peace initiative, when you can have both? Two for the price of one?
I can't speak for our Canadian friend here, but I'm comfortable that I have not tarnished, cheapened or otherwise blemished the Camp David Accords. Brzezenski is a hero of mine.
-Sik
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Because you probably could have got it "wholesale" if you left the "make kissy-kissy with the Israelis" out of it. Far, far cheaper I think.
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(http://www.protestwarrior.com/nimages/signs/pw_sign_22.gif)
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Originally posted by Toad
Because you probably could have got it "wholesale" if you left the "make kissy-kissy with the Israelis" out of it. Far, far cheaper I think.
I'm not sure I agree with that, but I certainly believe that getting both at once was easier and cheaper than trying to get them "ala cart." Not to mention the possible political fallout with Israel if we were to make unilateral offers to Egypt.
-Sik
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Well, gee whiz, we already had Israel irrevocably anchored in our sphere of influence. Where else could they go?
So get Egypt on the cheap! Offer them the same weapons the Israelis were owning them with every time they went to war.
I mean, that's all that mattered right? Getting them in our orbit?
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Originally posted by Toad
I mean, that's all that mattered right? Getting them in our orbit?
I guess you're talking to someone else.
Never mind.
-Sik
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Yeah, I'm trying out the other side's moccasins. Not pointed at you or anyone in particular.
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"No matter what we do in the US some will find a way to try and tarnish it, blemish it, cheapen it or disdain it."
If you cant accept that the Camp David accord was also a great diplomatic victory then where do we go? It has kept one of the largest most powerful arab nations in the US sphere through thick and thin for a quarter century. How is pointing that out an insult to the US?
I honestly cannot believe how narrow minded you have become.
You are not trying on any other moccasins. Your trying on the same jack boots you have allways worn..but you have put them on your head, in your mouth and up your butt to see if they work better there then they have served you on your feet.
But its the same old jack boots Toad.
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Let me help you here.
What I find insulting is your hypothesis that the peace making between Israel and Egypt was of equal importance to drawing Egypt into our sphere of influence.
Why? Because historically, the MAP and additional aid was added towards the end of the negotiations at the insistence of the Egyptians.
Clearly, we started the negotiation with the primary intention of facilitating peace between these two.
As for jackboots, you're the one looking out your navel. It isn't this one instance either.
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Naw. Your blabbering cause its a facet of the aggreement that you had not considered. So your uncomfortable with it. But it is indeed self evident. It is indeed probably one of the major reasons why the accords have been so increadably successful. For 25 years those two countries were at war. For longer then that they havent been. Not a sniff. The US made it in everyones real interest to not be at war. Very well done. But it was in the USs interest as well.
Really you are being very very silly about this.
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Yeah, I'm such a babe in the woods with respect to the US the USSR and the Cold War.
Your gibberish aside for a moment, please explain just what you meant with this remark:
the same jack boots you have allways worn
What were you trying to say here? Is this your euphemism for calling me a "right wing facist" or even a "nazi"?
Just what was your intent?
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Quicker quicker Toad. When cornered you must imediatly change tacts and get defensive again.. Ususally on a different topic.
read up. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5279743/)
man those CIA analysts are STUPID. how could they miss what is so evident to you and Grunhurtz and Nuke?
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What's the matter Pongo?
Having trouble being honest?
Answer it. I assure you I'll then address everything you've posted since.
Or are YOU changing topics?
Go ahead.. explain the "jackboot" reference. If you have the sand.
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Originally posted by Flyboy
Hi bluedog
im 17 now, will be 18 in november.
in israel every man and woman that come to the age of 18 has to join the army.
men have a 3year minimum and women 2years.
good luck/mazel tov flyboy :)
(and no, it's not supposed to be ironic or anything as complex)
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Have you actually managed to somehow convince yourself Im afraid of you?
Make up your own explanation. Its all you will accept anyway.
Great play on your moccasin thing though wasnt it? Imagine if you were so clever and quick..the things you could do.
But your not. Your quick. But not clever. Or maybe your holding back?
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I just like to let folks paint their own pictures of themselves for all to see.
You've painted quite a self-portrait here.
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Yes. A horrible picture of a man whom against all reason applauds the US for thier efforts in the Camp David accords!~
THE MADNESS.
read the link though. I think the CIA needs your help to unlearn some things.
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"we've had 37,000 (or more) soldiers on UN peacekeeping duties in Korea for ~ 50 years.
"
cant believe you actually said that. Man you have a nack for self delusion that is hard to fathom.
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Just put me in jackboots again. It's a style that fits you now.
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Hey Im glad I threw that in, it saves you haveing to come up with any more rediculous statements like the korean thing.
Just think of the trouble I have saved you by giveing you something to hide behind.
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Originally posted by Flyboy
Hi bluedog
im 17 now, will be 18 in november.
in israel every man and woman that come to the age of 18 has to join the army.
men have a 3year minimum and women 2years.
What if you want to study University or when you study abroad at that age ?
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Go ahead, tell us all how the "korean thing" isn't a UN operation.
Face it man, you're nothing but a drive-by anymore. Anything substantive and you just change the subject and/or run away. You're down to insults as your finest moments.
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straffo did you played warbirds in the past? i remember a player named french who kinda reminds me you with his hebrew yedish babbling :p (thanks btw :) )
lada- if you have good grades and want to, the army will allow you and will eevn pay for your university studies. but most of the people go to the university after they finish serving in the army
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Originally posted by Flyboy
Hi bluedog
im 17 now, will be 18 in november.
in israel every man and woman that come to the age of 18 has to join the army.
men have a 3year minimum and women 2years.
Be safe .
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Originally posted by Flyboy
straffo did you played warbirds in the past? i remember a player named french who kinda reminds me you with his hebrew yedish babbling :p (thanks btw :) )
I did play very occasionnaly WB in the past (no more than perhaps 20/40 hour total :D) I was more interested in DOA but because of the studies I was not able to play much (cost time and so on) untill 2000 but AH was more attractive :).
I thing the player named "French" is the "Frenchy" flying here /
My yiddish is more than weak and my hebrew almost nil ...
I thing I technicaly still can ask for the alyah
But well ... my familly left the comunauty more than 1 century ago :)
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Originally posted by Toad
Go ahead, tell us all how the "korean thing" isn't a UN operation.
Face it man, you're nothing but a drive-by anymore. Anything substantive and you just change the subject and/or run away. You're down to insults as your finest moments.
Do the american soldiers wear UN berets in Korea? How can US who where protagonists in a war be the "peace keepers" afterwards? Are the north koreans manning that border "Peace keepers' as well?
Face it. Your so desparate to keep yourself comfortably in what ever world view it is you have fallen into that you will say just about anything. No matter how ludicrous.
And your still way short of replying to my points vs me replying to yours. So I guess that makes you a drive by. In moccasins or something.
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No they don't wear blue berets. They are, however, part of a UN command and deterrence operation. The UNC has ~1000 members and has a US Army 4-star as CINC.
I guess to you that means it's not a United Nations operation even though they call it the United Nations Command.
Canadians fought in the Korean War and until 2000 Canadians served with the United Nations Command Military Armistice Commission. Guess it's impossible that those guys were peacekeepers by your logic.
I offered to answer all of your old points and your new ones.
Like I said, you no longer discuss or debate; you just a drive-by poster.
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Just so we are clear as to where the tone for this debate came from Toad.
"Originally posted by Toad
Well, sure. Folks that "don't want to get involved" always seek a simplistic viewpoint to dismiss a problem"
"But you gotta do what you gotta do and them as can DOES while them that can't DON'T."
So every time you say"show me where I said others do nothing" read that.
Just so we are real clear about the nature of the korean debate
You said this.
"we've had 37,000 (or more) soldiers on UN peacekeeping duties in Korea for ~ 50 years.
"
They are not peace keepers. Of course they are not. They are the remenents of the force that fought the war. Same as the Canadians.
Don't you see that?
I dont like to cut and paste cause it shows that no real understanding has been achieved. Could you imagine a conversation held that way?
You went in this thread from denying that bringing Egypt into the US fold was a factor at all in the Camp David accords to reluctently admiting it was a factor but being enraged at me about wether it was a "primary" factor or a "secondary" factor.
To me it is honestly irrelivent. Its the whole deal. It is what it is. You needed US control of Egypt to get peace. You had to buy them away from the Soviets to control them. It really is the best peace that money can buy. What is to fight about? Its a great treaty.
If the USSR/Eqypt - USA/Isreal met to aggree to peace between the two countries and they each stayed in thier respective spheres you would see how different a peace treaty that would be.(and likely ineffective)
If the USSR brokered peace with Isreal and Egypt by ensureing the security of Isreal and sending aid to each you would see the diplomatic importance of HOW the peace was agreed to.
Where I said it was "as much" about control as peace. Bit if a stretch maybe but certainly not worth all this fuss. Control of Egypt was a MAJOR part of it. The US would likley have persued such a treaty with any country that possesed the Suez canal and substancial oil reserves even without the Isreali conection.
ya I know. IMHO
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Originally posted by xrtoronto
that's pretty much how the entire world sees it (outside of israel and the US)
That is a simplistic view.
"But you gotta do what you gotta do and them as can DOES while them that can't DON'T."
What is untrue in that?
So they're not peacekeepers? Why does the UN place troops on a DMZ if not to keep the peace?
You went in this thread from denying that bringing Egypt into the US fold was a factor at all in the Camp David accords
No, this is what I said:
" I think the US, particularly Carter was motivated PRIMARILY to find a peaceful solution to the continual wars. A byproduct of that effort was to bring Egypt out of the Soviet sphere of influence.
"
IF you can show a quote in this thread that said I denied it was a factor, do so. Otherwise, you're just slinging ever more BS. What I denied or disagree with, take your pick, is that it was an equal consideration. And yeah, all you've got is your opinion. Nothing from Carter or Henry K or anyone else.
I think you've already forgotten what was posted here.
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Originally posted by Flyboy
lada- if you have good grades and want to, the army will allow you and will eevn pay for your university studies. but most of the people go to the university after they finish serving in the army
Do you have to work for Army, when they pay studies for you ?
Here, when you let army to pay you military university, you must work for them maybe 20 years or you must payback your studies.
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Originally posted by lada
Do you have to work for Army, when they pay studies for you ?
Here, when you let army to pay you military university, you must work for them maybe 20 years or you must payback your studies.
if you go to the unviversity instead of joining the army after high-school, you'll have to serve 3 years extra (a total of 6 years) in the army...
But it usually guarenty that you'll be doing research and development or intel work instead of be sent to get shot at.
Bozon
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Originally posted by Capt. Pork
Are there any Israelis who support this idea?
If so, what are their motivations? I've heard all sorts of speculation regarding the military industry being held back by contractual obligations to the states but haven't been able to find any concrete evidence.
As always, any Israel related thread is being redirected to the "who's the most evil nation" question and no one actually replies to the original topic.
Cap. Pork, I belive you are refering to statments made by me in a few old threads.
Absurd as it may sound, the american military aid hurts israeli economy in more than one way. Many people recognize Israel today as a hi-tech super power. In the late 90s, there were more startup companies in Israel than entire western europe and almost every major world company had their research centers in Israel (Intel, IBM, 3COM, etc). But until the late 60's Israel was mainly an agricultural society - we were known for our fruits (mainly oranges).
What made this shift? mostly the hi-tech military industry. untill the 70s France was Israel's weapon supplier. But when they layed the embargo, Israel had to get the weapons else where - some were baught from the US and the others were developed localy. Israel's "Kfir" fighter was own development to match the Miraze V that the french didn't sell us (OK, the Mosad got hold of the plane's plans which helped a bit). Then we built our own tanks (Merkava) our own fighter (Lavi) our own balistic missile / sattelite launcher, our own radars, A2A missiles, electronic-warfare, guidance systems, night vision, unmaned-aircrafts... etc etc.
All those scientists and engineers would end up in civilian hi-tech companies, with their knoledge, to create Israel's modern economy. Plus some profits from selling the systems to other countries.
Now, this works the same in the US. The budgets that goes to NASA for example provide the US economy with a lot of technology developed originally for other purposes.
So the US wants to keep the military industry running - both for the jobs it provides and for the technology and to keep it in a condition to build arms in case of a large war. But it doesn't want to buy uneeded weapons - so, by providing forien aid to other countries, they both get Political/Diplomatical profits and pour money into their military industry to keep it running.
The aid is not in cash - it's like coupons used to buy weapons from american companies - the US goverments is paying it's own industries. The countries who uses these coupons find it cheaper to buy from the americans using this paper money instead of buying from the local industry. This is how american industry beats foreign companies to contructs.
the IDF buys even uniform and canned food from the US, ruining many local small factories.
As time goes by, Israel is becoming more and more dependent on this "aid" and less capable to support itself, because local companies shift their business to other areas. It is now a whip that america uses against Israel.
Israel has to get approvements from the US for it's PRIVATE companies deals with other countries. we can't sell radars, night vision, upgrade planes and such without US approval.
The most extream case was when the US goverment forced "EL-AL" Israel's airline, to buy Boeing instead of Airbus, after they decided they prefer airbus.
Another famous cases were the billion dollar deal to sell radar plane to China (this is NOT an offensive weapon and the US is not in war with china) and the India radar deal (the "Arrow" system's radar to detect and track balistic missiles).
No goverment in Israel had the balls to cut back on this aid - they always prefer the short sighted easy solutions. Yes, Israel needs the aid. If it was gone suddenly we'd be in trouble. But it also needs to cut back on it gradually. The threats on Israel's security are not what they used to be. Terrorism will hurt but will not whipe us out.
Bozon
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Interesting and pretty realistic pov Bozon.
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Originally posted by Pongo
read up. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5279743/)
man those CIA analysts are STUPID. how could they miss what is so evident to you and Grunhurtz and Nuke?
What are you refering to as being so evident to me and how does it relate to that link?
All of the sudden you believe the CIA now, after one anonymous guy comes out of the woodwork peddeling a book? LOL!
You are so dense it isn't even funny.
Please change the Avatar you lifted directly from mine, it's confusing people
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How does the citizenship work in Israel?
A lot of US jews seem to have dual citizenship.
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Congrats Toad. you didnt reply to my shoving your face in your stupid korea peace keepers quote. You didnt reply to me shoving your face in the quotes from you that started the whole tone of this thread.
No you ignore all that. So we can accept that as you acknoledging the truth in my statements in those regards. Is that right. Am I getting the hang of your cut and past style of debate now.
And you are back again to me schooling you on camp david. Well I think you fully accept my version of it now and you just wasting our time to try to salvage some pride on the issue.
so we can drop it.
Hard to believe you were this painfull to teach in school.
No nuke. Im not changing my avatar.
Some anominous source..lol
THe guy is a spook. He got permision from the CIA to publish that. Would he be able to publish it if he wasnt in the role the describes. Your pathetic.
If what the CIA was actually saying on terrorism and the invasion of Iraq had been made public from the start I would have aggreed with it from the start. But it wasnt because it was inconvienient for Bush.
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Pongo, you are unable to comprehend even basic statements.
The guy that wrote the book remains ANONYMOUS and just ONE guy peddeling a book.
Permission from the CIA, LOL. That just means he isn't revealing anything important to them and that hardly backs up any of his claims.
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Hey, I don't mind if you're delusional. Enjoy your world.
Suffice it to say that I don't share you view of the exchange in the least. If you can't read and understand, it's easy to see who was painful to teach in school.
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stiehl, every jew in the world can become a israeli citizen. all he need to do is ask, allso is wife and kids even if they are not jews.
i do not know what are the demnands from no-jews.
bozon we are having our 101squadron "minicon" sometime soon - you are welcome to come if you want :)
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Well circumcision for starters probably....
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Originally posted by Flyboy
stiehl, every jew in the world can become a israeli citizen. all he need to do is ask, allso is wife and kids even if they are not jews.
i do not know what are the demnands from no-jews.
In theory it's simple. But who is a jew? this opens a can of worms that I wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole.
The jewish tradition says that you are a jew, if your mother was a jew, which makes this a recursive definition...
The state law is more leniant. the rights-of-return give citizenship to anyone who proved his grandmother is a jew. The reason for this is that this is the criteria the nazies used, so if you are jewish enough to be gassed you are jewish enough for the state.
There's a lot of people calling to change that, since suddenly a lot of people from 3rd world countries start to find some jewish root in their families. Israel might not be so attractive if you were born in Sweden or Belgium, but it's a whole lot better that most of the world countries.
Bozon
Flyboy, I'd love to come! just shoot me an email.
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Originally posted by NUKE
Pongo, you are unable to comprehend even basic statements.
The guy that wrote the book remains ANONYMOUS and just ONE guy peddeling a book.
Permission from the CIA, LOL. That just means he isn't revealing anything important to them and that hardly backs up any of his claims.
Doenst back up the claim that he led the team that was monitoring bin ladin. Well I will admit I never thought of that. Maybe it is a hoax and the guy isnt in the CIA at all.
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Originally posted by bozon
As always, any Israel related thread is being redirected to the "who's the most evil nation" question and no one actually replies to the original topic.
Cap. Pork, I belive you are refering to statments made by me in a few old threads.
Absurd as it may sound, the american military aid hurts israeli economy in more than one way. Many people recognize Israel today as a hi-tech super power. In the late 90s, there were more startup companies in Israel than entire western europe and almost every major world company had their research centers in Israel (Intel, IBM, 3COM, etc). But until the late 60's Israel was mainly an agricultural society - we were known for our fruits (mainly oranges).
What made this shift? mostly the hi-tech military industry. untill the 70s France was Israel's weapon supplier. But when they layed the embargo, Israel had to get the weapons else where - some were baught from the US and the others were developed localy. Israel's "Kfir" fighter was own development to match the Miraze V that the french didn't sell us (OK, the Mosad got hold of the plane's plans which helped a bit). Then we built our own tanks (Merkava) our own fighter (Lavi) our own balistic missile / sattelite launcher, our own radars, A2A missiles, electronic-warfare, guidance systems, night vision, unmaned-aircrafts... etc etc.
All those scientists and engineers would end up in civilian hi-tech companies, with their knoledge, to create Israel's modern economy. Plus some profits from selling the systems to other countries.
Now, this works the same in the US. The budgets that goes to NASA for example provide the US economy with a lot of technology developed originally for other purposes.
So the US wants to keep the military industry running - both for the jobs it provides and for the technology and to keep it in a condition to build arms in case of a large war. But it doesn't want to buy uneeded weapons - so, by providing forien aid to other countries, they both get Political/Diplomatical profits and pour money into their military industry to keep it running.
The aid is not in cash - it's like coupons used to buy weapons from american companies - the US goverments is paying it's own industries. The countries who uses these coupons find it cheaper to buy from the americans using this paper money instead of buying from the local industry. This is how american industry beats foreign companies to contructs.
the IDF buys even uniform and canned food from the US, ruining many local small factories.
As time goes by, Israel is becoming more and more dependent on this "aid" and less capable to support itself, because local companies shift their business to other areas. It is now a whip that america uses against Israel.
Israel has to get approvements from the US for it's PRIVATE companies deals with other countries. we can't sell radars, night vision, upgrade planes and such without US approval.
The most extream case was when the US goverment forced "EL-AL" Israel's airline, to buy Boeing instead of Airbus, after they decided they prefer airbus.
Another famous cases were the billion dollar deal to sell radar plane to China (this is NOT an offensive weapon and the US is not in war with china) and the India radar deal (the "Arrow" system's radar to detect and track balistic missiles).
No goverment in Israel had the balls to cut back on this aid - they always prefer the short sighted easy solutions. Yes, Israel needs the aid. If it was gone suddenly we'd be in trouble. But it also needs to cut back on it gradually. The threats on Israel's security are not what they used to be. Terrorism will hurt but will not whipe us out.
Bozon
Thanks Bozon.