Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: -tronski- on June 21, 2004, 03:24:52 AM
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I subscribe to this mag which came in the post today and read these tidbits with interest:
Australian Aviation (http://www.ausaviation.com.au/Online/newsdesk/newsdesk.htm)
• USAF F-15s WAXED BY INDIAN SUKHOIS: The USAF has revealed, although not in so many words, that its latest APG-63(v)2 AESA equipped F-15Cs were consistently beaten by Indian Air Force Sukhoi Su-30MKs during exercise Cope India in March.
During a recent talkfest designed to pump up the latest capabilities of the F/A-22 Raptor, US media reportedly got their hands on an as yet unreleased report which described the long range engagement exercises between the F-15s and the Su-30s.
The report allegedly says that, although both sides were able to see each other at about the same time, the Indians were usually able to get the first shot off with their longer ranging AA-10 Alamo missiles compared to the US AIM-120 AMRAAMs, and were often winning the long range engagements.
The report also said the Indian pilots were averaging some 300 hours flying time each per year, some 50 hours a year more than their US counterparts.
• USAF PUMPED ABOUT PRELIMINARY F/A-22 TEST RESULTS: The F/A-22 Raptor has only been in the combat testing phase of its development for less than a month, but already USAF leaders are talking up some early test results.
During a media open day at Andrews AFB near Washington on May 14, Secretary of the Air Force Dr James Roche declared: “We’re way ahead of where people expected us to be.”
Dr Roche went on to describe a recent test to reporters. “We had five F-15 Eagles against one Raptor,” he said. “The engagement was over in three minutes. None of the F-15s even saw the Raptor. The Raptor simply went down the line and took out all five of the F-15s.”
He added: “The fact that it flies very high, very stealthy and at high speed without afterburner makes it very tough for anybody else to have a fire control solution. The F-15s, with very good radars, were not able to pick up and understand where the F/A-22s were, and the F/A-22 was looking at the F-15s all the time.”
Meanwhile, USAF officials have warned that the planned in service date of December 2005 for the F/A-22 Raptor may slip. USAF acquisition chief Martin Sambur has revealed to US media that “we think this date may slip a little bit”. Mr Sambur was unable to say why or by how much it would slip, but he suggested it could be by several months.
The revelation comes as the US Senate armed services committee has been looking for ways to cut the 24 aircraft scheduled to be funded next year by at least two, which would put further pressure on current funding for 277 aircraft, still way short of the 381 F/A-22s the USAF says it needs.
Aparently an Eagle driver took up one of the Su-30MK's, love to know what he thought of it.
The Raptor looks sensational, and really seems to have the claws...
Tronsky
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i wonder how did F22 "see" eagles all the time without active radar ?
Just passive scanning for active radars of F15s ? If so, sounds like next tactic by F15 drivers would be turning off the dar and using AWACS.
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None of that would surprise me. But in the real world the Su30's would never get off the ground against an American assault. Fighter v fighter combat is history with America's capability these days.
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Originally posted by cpxxx
None of that would surprise me. But in the real world the Su30's would never get off the ground against an American assault. Fighter v fighter combat is history with America's capability these days.
Since US never had adversary that actually has panes this has been the case. Doesn’t take much to attack shepherds and rag makers. AK47 just can’t quite reach those B2s. :rolleyes:
India will stand ground well enough and defend its land.
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evil american aggressors.....
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Originally posted by Russian
Since US never had adversary that actually has panes this has been the case. Doesn’t take much to attack shepherds and rag makers. AK47 just can’t quite reach those B2s. :rolleyes:
India will stand ground well enough and defend its land.
How do those dreaded SUs do against Pakistani IRBMs?
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wont work rino. Pakistan just isnt "evil enough" ;)
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Bout the same as the Pakistani f16s will do against the Indian Nukes.
Ya the USAF is very in debted to the IAF for making a case for the need for the F22..lol
"Inside The Air Force
June 4, 2004
Pg. 1
USAF: Indian Exercises Showed Need For F/A-22, Changes In Training
A recent exercise with the Indian Air Force is causing U.S. Air Force
officials to re-evaluate the way the service trains its fighter pilots
while bolstering the case for buying the F/A-22 as a way to ensure
continued air dominance for the United States, according to service
officials.
The surprising sophistication of Indian fighter aircraft and skill of
Indian pilots demonstrated at the Cope India air combat exercise Feb. 15
through 27 at Gwalior Air Force Station, India, should provide a reality
check for those who had assumed unquestioned U.S. air superiority, service
officials who participated in the exercise said this week. The event was
the first-ever air combat exercise involving the U.S. and India and the
most active bilateral military exchange in over 40 years, according to
these officials.
“The major takeaway for the Air Force is that our prediction of needing to
replace the F-15 with the F/A-22 is proving out as we get smarter and
smarter about other [countries’] capabilities around the world and what
technology is limited to in the F-15 airframe,” said Col. Mike Snodgrass,
commander of the 3rd Wing at Elmendorf Air Force Base, AK. “We’ve taken
[the F-15] about as far as we can and it’s now time to move to the next
generation.” Snodgrass, who has been selected to receive his first star,
and two other wing officials spoke with Inside the Air Force June 2.
The Air Force has been arguing the absolute necessity of the F/A-22 since
the program began. But the performance of the Indians in direct
competition against the Air Force’s best fighter, the F-15C, was
particularly striking evidence of an endangered U.S. lead in air combat
capability, the statements of service officials indicate.
Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. John Jumper told the Senate Appropriations
defense subcommittee in March that the results of Cope India were “very
revealing,” although he declined to elaborate in a public forum.
Privately, other senior service officials have pointed to Cope India as
evidence that continued U.S. air superiority is dependent on the F/A-22.
Although service officials have been reluctant to detail how the Indians
performed against the six F-15Cs from the 3rd Wing that participated in
Cope India, Rep. Duke Cunningham (R-CA) said in a Feb. 26 House
Appropriations defense subcommittee hearing that U.S. F-15Cs were defeated
more than 90 percent of the time in direct combat exercises against the
IAF.
Officials from the 3rd Wing at Elmendorf did not provide specifics about
how their aircraft fared, but said the experience is causing the service
to reevaluate the way it trains its pilots for air-to-air operations.
“What happened to us was it looks like our red air training might not be
as good because the adversaries are better than we thought,” Snodgrass
said. “And in the case of the Indian Air Force both their training and
some of their equipment was better than we anticipated.”
“Red air” refers to the way the Air Force simulates enemy capability in
air combat training. Because the service has assumed for years that its
fighters are more capable than enemy aircraft, the U.S. pilots that
simulate the enemy, known as “red” forces, in air combat training are
required to operate under rules that constrain their combat capability.
“We have always believed that our technology was superior to everyone
else’s technology, that we would fight a somewhat inferior adversary, so
we have had to supply a simulated adversary from our own resources; we
call that ‘red air,’” Snodgrass said.
As a result, Air Force pilots are used to flying against an enemy whose
combat capability is deliberately limited.
“There are maneuvering limits as well as weapons employment limits, what
we believe enemy aircraft may be able to do with their weapons systems, so
we try to simulate that in our own airplane with our own weapons,”
Snodgrass explained. “It becomes very complex because instead of using the
airplane the way it was designed, you now have to come up with rules of
thumb that limit what you do and cause you to not perform . . . the way we
really would want to in combat.”
The Cope India exercises consisted of air combat maneuvers in which pilots
would practice their fighter tactics and fly against each other
one-on-one, as well as simulated combat scenarios. It was during this
simulated combat, which included both “offensive counterair” and
“defensive counterair” scenarios, that the Indians proved the most
formidable, according to the 3rd Wing officials. In the offensive
counterair scenarios, a small number of F-15Cs would attempt to intercept
an enemy strike aircraft en route to a target that was guarded by a larger
number of Indian fighters. In the defensive counterair missions, the F-15s
would attempt to defend a target against Indian fighters.
In these offensive and defensive missions, four F-15Cs were usually flying
against 10 or 12 of the same model Indian fighter, according to Col. Greg
Neubeck, deputy commander of operations for the wing’s 3rd Operations
Group and exercise director for Cope India. The 3rd Operations Group is
responsible for the 3rd Wing’s flying mission.
The Indians flew a number of different fighters, including the French-made
Mirage 2000 and the Russian-made MIG-27 and MIG-29, but the two most
formidable IAF aircraft proved to be the MIG-21 Bison, an upgraded version
of the Russian-made baseline MIG-21, and the SU-30K Flanker, also made in
Russia, Neubeck said. He emphasized the fact that U.S. forces were always
outnumbered in these scenarios, but said the missions proved more
difficult than expected.
“What we faced were superior numbers, and an IAF pilot who was very
proficient in his aircraft and smart on tactics. That combination was
tough for us to overcome,” Neubeck said.
One reason the Indian pilots proved so formidable is that their training
regimen does not include a concept of “red air.” Instead, “they fly pretty
much blue-on-blue . . . [a] full-up airplane with no restrictions against
somebody else’s airplane with no restrictions, and that leads to more
proficiency with your aircraft,” Neubeck said.
In addition to reinforcing the need for the F/A-22, therefore, Cope India
demonstrated that the service might be able to immediately improve its air
combat capability by changing the way Air Force pilots train.
“The Air Force is re-examining, from what I can understand, our concept of
red air and how we might be able to provide red air to our fighter forces
so that we get [the best] training we can afford,” Snodgrass said.
Neubeck said the service probably needs to “take off the handcuffs that we
put on our red air training aids and allow them to be more aggressive and
make the red air tougher than we have in the past.”
Although India is a friendly nation, the lesson of Cope India is that
almost any nation could surpass the United States’ air combat capability
if the Pentagon does not continue to invest in better training and
technology, the Elmendorf officials said. At last count, for example,
there were over 5,000 MIG-21s active in air forces around the world,
Snodgrass said. Even American fighters, such as Boeing’s F-15, are being
sold in upgraded versions to countries around the world.
“I believe what this demonstrates is that the capacity exists out there
for any nation with the appropriate resources and the will to acquire
technology and to train their aircrews to be very, very capable,” said
Col. Russ Handy, commander of the 3rd Operations Group. “In the long term
this could occur in nations outside of the Indian Air Force.”
The Air Force will get another chance to test its capabilities against the
Indians in July, when the IAF will bring its Jaguar fighter-bomber
aircraft to Eielson AFB, AK, for the Cooperative Cope Thunder exercise.
The 3rd Wing officers said their pilots had not yet flown against an
Indian-piloted Jaguar.
"
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Let's see: F-22 Raptor is a wonderweapon but Air Force isn't getting all the planes it wants.
Then we learn that Russian Sukhois can easily whip F-15 Eagles butt.
Coincidence? Sure :D
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I think the first F-15's were deployed in 1972. OVer 30 years ago. Pretty good run for a fighter to be at the head of it's class.
I think there's a lot to what Staga says too. How timely, eh?
Better get those F-22's rolling off the lines Mr. Congressman!
But practicing against other countries and getting slapped is a good thing. It provides the impetus to do better. to the IAF.
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Please notice that exported Sukhois have airframes identical to the planes built for VVS, but fire-control equipment and avionics is simplified.
I only wish VVS could get more of this S-30MK birds. So far they mostly upgrade existing airframes...
BTW, Toad, would you be so kind to please contact me by e-mail ( tengrie (at) chph.ras.ru ) or ICQ ( 4627619 )? I have some questions for you...
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Forgive me if I don't get too excited about simulated BVR combat results.
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So if the F22 doesn't have active radar? Doesn't that mean if the AWAC is shot down the the F22 is shall we say screwed against an foe with active radar?
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Originally posted by Toad
I think the first F-15's were deployed in 1972. OVer 30 years ago. Pretty good run for a fighter to be at the head of it's class.
I think there's a lot to what Staga says too. How timely, eh?
Better get those F-22's rolling off the lines Mr. Congressman!
But practicing against other countries and getting slapped is a good thing. It provides the impetus to do better. to the IAF.
Plus, from reading the article, the main difference was the missle, not the plane.
The USAF probably wants to bolster the case for the F-22 any way it can.
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I read somewhere that the scenario that most supprised the US was a 4 ship Eagle intercept on a 10 ship formation of Mig 21s(bisons with BVR) and 2 SU30s in an AWACS mode. The escort part of the mig 21 group defeated the 15s without loss to thier strike package.
That is not a huge supise if you think of what a force multiplier good airborn command and control is.
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First to shoot doesn't necessarily mean victory. Will have to take a look at how those AA-10's compare to the AIM-120's.
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Originally posted by AKIron
First to shoot doesn't necessarily mean victory. Will have to take a look at how those AA-10's compare to the AIM-120's.
What is a Russian name of this AA-10s?
I wonder if Indians really have any. And if they have - they can have some "issues". I don't know about the current state of affairs, but some long-range AA missiles were only produced as experimental samples.
I also can doubt the "simulated" BVR training. Anyway, long-range SAM is the best BVR weapon.
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What I found most telling is the quote by the AF general that admitted we have been limiting the abilities of our OPFOR pilots to simulate inferior enemy combatants?
Can someone give me a reason why this isn't the most stupid shazaam thing in the world? Sure, train them for the enemy tactics, but train them against the best flying the best. That way, when you do meet the enemy, you recognize their tactics, but can beat them because you're used to people who fly better.
:confused:
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Originally posted by NUKE
Plus, from reading the article, the main difference was the missle, not the plane.
The USAF probably wants to bolster the case for the F-22 any way it can.
No kidding. If it was a missile against missile thing, bring in the Tomcats with a Phoenix loadout.
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Originally posted by Dune
What I found most telling is the quote by the AF general that admitted we have been limiting the abilities of our OPFOR pilots to simulate inferior enemy combatants?
Can someone give me a reason why this isn't the most stupid shazaam thing in the world? Sure, train them for the enemy tactics, but train them against the best flying the best. That way, when you do meet the enemy, you recognize their tactics, but can beat them because you're used to people who fly better.
:confused:
The top gun guys. who are selected for the job because they are supperior, then would have many times more simulated combat hours cause they are at the school all the time. would totaly walk on the "trainees" 95 % of the time. That is a questionable use of the very expensive flying time. But obviosly the gloves have to come off to some extent.
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isnt it amazing what the indians can do when they use the gambling money on aircraft instead of booze. Looks like we may have to rethink those treaties.
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LOL
Its not paying taxes on thier aircraft...gives them an unfair advantage.
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Originally posted by -tronski-
“The engagement was over in three minutes. None of the F-15s even saw the Raptor. The Raptor simply went down the line and took out all five of the F-15s.”
That is an objective statement
:rofl
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Originally posted by Pongo
I read somewhere that the scenario that most supprised the US was a 4 ship Eagle intercept on a 10 ship formation of Mig 21s(bisons with BVR) and 2 SU30s in an AWACS mode. The escort part of the mig 21 group defeated the 15s without loss to thier strike package.
That is not a huge supise if you think of what a force multiplier good airborn command and control is.
muhehehe what shall i do after reading this, when our country were CAPed only 0by 2x flyable Mig-21 in past 8 years
:rofl :rofl :rofl
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Good lord! The side with AWACS and numbers wins a simulated BVR fight!!! Who would have thought! That's unpossible!
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Originally posted by Dnil
isnt it amazing what the indians can do when they use the gambling money on aircraft instead of booze. Looks like we may have to rethink those treaties.
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
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As usual these kind of topics come up and someone tries to prove one is better than the other. It's rather amusing considering how many here have the first hand knowledge to back the "superior" aircraft theories other than simple internet data on either airframe? Stop kidding yourselves into thinking one is better than the other by the news you hear. Disinformation is such a great tactic that has been used for ages and folks still fall for it.
Neubeck said the service probably needs to “take off the handcuffs that we
put on our red air training aids and allow them to be more aggressive and
make the red air tougher than we have in the past.”
Obviously non of you have ever particpated in an Air Force Red Flag scenario. As Neubeck has said we handcuff our aircrews in mock engagements and have for some time. We've limited our crews to certain systems capabilities and afterburner usage. It's well known amongst the fighter community that these things go on and people still seem to think that this aircraft can beat this aircraft because of internet data and news clippings. To make the story short no one not even India I'm sure will use everything in the book during mock engagements. If that were the case then why not just declassify all classified documents and let the enemy have full access to that data? You have to leave some things a secret even with allies because someday you may be facing them in war.
Oh and as far as the whole F-15 vs F/A 22 thing. Once again step away from the goodies and look at the big picture. Why wouldn't the DoD and the Air Force ramp up the hype on the F/A 22? Let see: money, money, and oh more money. The military in general loves new toys. The best way to get them is to prove in some way or another the old ones aren't capable of doing their job anymore(news clippings). The F/A 22 has been in developement for over a decade now and has cost massive amounts of money to get it where it is. Obviously the threat of aging systems isn't as bad as they make it seem or else the Raptor program would have been accelerated to an unfathomable rate. Yes it is superior than the F-15 in many ways but don't kid yourself that the Eagle can't hold it's own. Very few people have a clue as to whats coming for the Eagles in the future.
F-15 is aging and yes it may or may not be behind the times in comparison to the next generation fighters in some ways but it still gets the job done. The oldest F-15s still in combat squadrons other than guard still have alot of years on them left for duty. The Air Force could easily do extensive upgrades to fit future requirements but why when they've spent how much on the Raptor over how many years? Don't doubt that the Eagle is advancing it's technology though. The Eagle and the Strike Eagle will be around for many more years. Amusing how the F-117 is already trying to downsize it's fleet when there isn't many of them in the first place and the Eagle is still going strong. Considering the fact that the Stealth "Fighter" was designed around the same time as the later Eagle models and it's already being phased out is amusing to say the least.
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Originally posted by Staga
Let's see: F-22 Raptor is a wonderweapon but Air Force isn't getting all the planes it wants.
Then we learn that Russian Sukhois can easily whip F-15 Eagles butt.
Coincidence? Sure :D
I'm not positive on how these exercises are preformed, but I'm pretty sure they're not launching missiles at one another. Both the Su-30's and the F-15's get a lock on eachother outside missile range, the Su-30's fire first (or just say they have a lock and are in range) and then turn and run, leaving the Eagles to get whatever scraps they can with the AMRAAMS. It probably based more on numbers and chance than evasive manuevers and airborne radars.
Verdict? The AA-10 shoots farther. That's all you can tell.
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Originally posted by Dnil
isnt it amazing what the indians can do when they use the gambling money on aircraft instead of booze. Looks like we may have to rethink those treaties.
:D new sig
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Originally posted by Dnil
isnt it amazing what the indians can do when they use the gambling money on aircraft instead of booze. Looks like we may have to rethink those treaties.
Beautiful!
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Originally posted by hawker238
I'm not positive on how these exercises are preformed, but I'm pretty sure they're not launching missiles at one another. Both the Su-30's and the F-15's get a lock on eachother outside missile range, the Su-30's fire first (or just say they have a lock and are in range) and then turn and run, leaving the Eagles to get whatever scraps they can with the AMRAAMS. It probably based more on numbers and chance than evasive manuevers and airborne radars.
Verdict? The AA-10 shoots farther. That's all you can tell.
No.
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Spitfire plz.
:D
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Pongo no to what? I may be wrong but over the years it seems other countries tend to rate their weapons platforms higher than others. I read not to long ago that the SU-30 is capable of withstanding 15gs. Now what isn't said is how much extensive damage will occur at this point. Missing wings, warped fuselage, ect... It makes you wonder if they do the same for their missiles too. Is this the absolute max range indications without a maneuvering target or is this their max range with high probability of a hit? I'm sure they account for this but I'm not so sure how much is absolute maximum limits.
Most mock engagements also have parameters that must be met for so long of a period at a certain range. Just as an example having a lock with an AIM 9 for approximately 5 seconds at a range of less than 10 miles and the battle is over. It doesn't account for external countermeasures and evasion tactics (beaming the missile, chaff and flares ect...). Either way the only way to tell whats going to happen against two airframes is put them in a real fight and see who comes home or not.
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Honestly, a lot of punches (or counter-punches) are being held.
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Originally posted by hawker238
Verdict? The AA-10 shoots farther. That's all you can tell.
Actually all you can tell is that the IAF fire control computers think the AA-10's shoot further than the USAF fire control computers think the AIM-120 can shoot. As anyone who has studied historical AAM combat results will know, theoretical firing envelopes and real firing envelopes don't always coincide.
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No, we dont know enough about the engements and officiating to be able to know even that. What we know is that the US sent some of its upgraded F15s there for dissimilar training, They were impressed with the abilities of the Indians and came away feelling that they were not victorios in what ever it was the engagments were.
All we know is that they have told us. Saying that that means the Indians had longer range "excersise" missles is a leap.
They had Air control and from the engement I was told about they had serios numbers advantages.
Dont underestimate the IAF. They lose aircraft to angry elephants most years.