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General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Yeager on June 21, 2004, 08:30:45 PM

Title: USMC Patrol Ambushed
Post by: Yeager on June 21, 2004, 08:30:45 PM
In Ramadi today.  All men killed.  Command was unaware until unit failed to report in.

Ok.......so why were FOUR marines on patrol in Ramadi?  I mean.  How about 15 or 30 marines on patrol but.......  four?

Come on

That just seems like a tragedy waiting to happen.  Whoever ordered out a 4 man patrol should have his rank lowered to private face courts martial then be dishonorably discharged.
Title: USMC Patrol Ambushed
Post by: Gunslinger on June 21, 2004, 08:36:31 PM
My understanding was that they were actually manning a checkpoint or guarding somthing.....Sucks either way.....hope they took a good bunch with them.
Title: Re: USMC Patrol Ambushed
Post by: Rafe35 on June 21, 2004, 08:44:13 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Yeager
Whoever ordered out a 4 man patrol should have his rank lowered to private face courts martial then be dishonorably discharged.
I hope he get Court Martial
Title: USMC Patrol Ambushed
Post by: Mickey1992 on June 21, 2004, 10:01:33 PM
News reports say all four died of a single gunshot wound, 3 with chest wounds and one with a head wound.  All 4 were found with their flak vests looted.  It seems very odd.  Someone delivered a video of the scene to the AP before the quick reaction force arrived to the scene.
Title: USMC Patrol Ambushed
Post by: newtype on June 21, 2004, 10:08:28 PM
That sucks. Is sad news when Marines go down.
Title: USMC Patrol Ambushed
Post by: Pongo on June 21, 2004, 11:47:11 PM
Sorry. But why wouldnt four marines be enough  for a patrol?
You face risks like this but what you ever going to learn about the enemy patroling in platoon size? Its rediculously easy to avoid a platoon, very hard to avoid 7 half squad patrol groups.
Your Sergents are trianed to lead patrols. Let em patrol.

That being said. If they where killed in that way its quite the change from what has happend to date. Had to be someone they knew to get all with out return fire one shot each.
Title: USMC Patrol Ambushed
Post by: Rafe35 on June 22, 2004, 12:12:31 PM
Believe it or not.

http://todaysthv.com/news/news.aspx?storyid=10293

TJ Parker was friend of mine who played Homeschool Basketball and I couldn't believe he died.

TJ Parker
Title: USMC Patrol Ambushed
Post by: JBA on June 22, 2004, 12:31:47 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Mickey1992
News reports say all four died of a single gunshot wound, 3 with chest wounds and one with a head wound.  All 4 were found with their flak vests looted.  It seems very odd.  Someone delivered a video of the scene to the AP before the quick reaction force arrived to the scene.


sounds like assinations to me.
Title: USMC Patrol Ambushed
Post by: _Schadenfreude_ on June 22, 2004, 12:34:31 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Rafe35
Believe it or not.

http://todaysthv.com/news/news.aspx?storyid=10293

TJ Parker was friend of mine who played Homeschool Basketball and I couldn't believe he died.

TJ Parker


sorry to hear that Rafe.....
Title: USMC Patrol Ambushed
Post by: Dnil on June 22, 2004, 12:34:50 PM
parker was part of a sniper team....something is strange about this.
Title: USMC Patrol Ambushed
Post by: Red Tail 444 on June 22, 2004, 12:49:27 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Rafe35
Believe it or not.

http://todaysthv.com/news/news.aspx?storyid=10293

TJ Parker was friend of mine who played Homeschool Basketball and I couldn't believe he died.

TJ Parker


:(  God Bless Him...my condolences...
Title: USMC Patrol Ambushed
Post by: SunTracker on June 22, 2004, 12:58:27 PM
This was just a very unfortunate incident.  Military learned in Vietnam that sending 30 soldiers tromping through the jungle led to 0 results.

My question is, why were they wearing flak vests instead of bullet-proof vests?
Title: USMC Patrol Ambushed
Post by: Dinger on June 22, 2004, 01:02:27 PM
Damn.  I was reading this, and thinking the same thing.  Groups of 4? Sure. A marine scout sniper I did OFP work with last year has been messaging me every now and then the last couple of months (kind of weird to get YMs from a warzone).  The last mission he described was photo recon where they set up in some bombed-out building at the end of a village, and took pictures while the locals salvaged metal and other materials from said building. Towards the end they were compromised by a 15-year-old kid.

Sheesh. I hope to hear from him again.
Title: USMC Patrol Ambushed
Post by: Red Tail 444 on June 22, 2004, 01:09:31 PM
Quote
Originally posted by SunTracker
This was just a very unfortunate incident.  Military learned in Vietnam that sending 30 soldiers tromping through the jungle led to 0 results.
My question is, why were they wearing flak vests instead of bullet-proof vests?


why would they have been shot once if it was a gunfight, and given all the hostage taking, would it not have been easier to Just capture them?

man this is turning into a mess....
Title: USMC Patrol Ambushed
Post by: Mickey1992 on June 22, 2004, 01:32:32 PM
Quote
Originally posted by SunTracker
My question is, why were they wearing flak vests instead of bullet-proof vests?


I meant bullet-proof vests, sorry.

I heard an early account that they were found on a rooftop.  I thought it was a reporting mistake until Rafe35 linked to the article that said it may have been a sniper unit.

Title: USMC Patrol Ambushed
Post by: cpxxx on June 22, 2004, 01:43:00 PM
Exactly Redtail. I saw the video tape on all the news bulletins yesterday. Apart from being disturbing it struck me as distinctly odd. It didn't look like the results of a firefight.  I'd find it hard to believe that a four man team of Marines could be surprised and executed with single shots.  

A thought occurs to me which I won't express.  It's all very odd indeed.
Title: USMC Patrol Ambushed
Post by: Red Tail 444 on June 22, 2004, 01:49:44 PM
I have not seen, nor do I wish to see, any footage...of anything...I try to avoid it...the news reports are fine for me. The less imagery I see and hear of this war, the less toxic I feel about it.
Title: USMC Patrol Ambushed
Post by: Red Tail 444 on June 22, 2004, 01:50:31 PM
Quote
Originally posted by cpxxx

A thought occurs to me which I won't express.  It's all very odd indeed.


?
Title: USMC Patrol Ambushed
Post by: lada on June 22, 2004, 01:55:37 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Mickey1992
News reports say all four died of a single gunshot wound, 3 with chest wounds and one with a head wound.  All 4 were found with their flak vests looted.  It seems very odd.  Someone delivered a video of the scene to the AP before the quick reaction force arrived to the scene.


Putin probably lost some of his Dragunovs
Title: USMC Patrol Ambushed
Post by: lazs2 on June 22, 2004, 02:21:43 PM
musta made lada's day.

lazs
Title: USMC Patrol Ambushed
Post by: Mickey1992 on June 22, 2004, 03:29:02 PM
Quote
Originally posted by cpxxx
A thought occurs to me which I won't express.


If you are thinking what I think you are thinking, I had not thought of that.  It would make sense in an spooky way though. :(
Title: USMC Patrol Ambushed
Post by: lada on June 22, 2004, 03:42:32 PM
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
musta made lada's day.

lazs


no i did sleep till 12 o`clock and then i worked untill 20 ....

and i have zillion people whitch can confirm that i were here :D
Title: USMC Patrol Ambushed
Post by: cpxxx on June 22, 2004, 03:50:59 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Mickey1992
If you are thinking what I think you are thinking, I had not thought of that.  It would make sense in an spooky way though. :(


I think so. A sniper with a Dragunov might get one not four. From the video it didn't look like a firefight so............
Title: USMC Patrol Ambushed
Post by: lada on June 22, 2004, 03:53:56 PM
Quote
Originally posted by cpxxx
I think so. A sniper with a Dragunov might get one not four. From the video it didn't look like a firefight so............


yes... one could get one

i didnt see any pictures, but did they shot them trough kevlar(or something like that) ?
Title: USMC Patrol Ambushed
Post by: Red Tail 444 on June 22, 2004, 04:22:23 PM
Quote
Originally posted by cpxxx
I think so. A sniper with a Dragunov might get one not four. From the video it didn't look like a firefight so............


ok, DAMNIT...I gotta go tend the horses, but when I get back I want some answers.
Title: USMC Patrol Ambushed
Post by: Fishu on June 22, 2004, 05:12:16 PM
Remember that the insurgents and terrorist have been also wearing police uniforms.. perhaps coalition uniforms as well.

They're underdog, they cannot fight directly.. therefore they will do everything which will give them a surprise advantage.
Basic guerrilla fightning.

In WWII anyone caught wearing enemy uniform would been shot on the spot by the enemies. No prisoners.
Title: USMC Patrol Ambushed
Post by: FUNKED1 on June 22, 2004, 05:28:22 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Fishu
In WWII anyone caught wearing enemy uniform would been shot on the spot by the enemies. No prisoners.


These days we put them in jail and subject them to fraternity hazing pranks.
Title: USMC Patrol Ambushed
Post by: Dinger on June 22, 2004, 06:32:10 PM
Again, don't put too much stock in what the news gives you.

"didn't return from a patrol"
could very well have been
"didn't return from a mission"

USMC sniper teams have been a major force in these insurgencies, both in terms of shooting people and gathering intelligence. Their long reach and low profile makes them ideal for influencing the battlefield without exposing anybody to risk. But that also means that being compromised can be a bad thing.

here's some shots I found online:
re: gear they carry:
http://home.mchsi.com/~dingerx/gear.jpg

pictures they get:
http://home.mchsi.com/~dingerx/reconphoto.jpg

I'm guessing this is what happens when they're messing around:

http://home.mchsi.com/~dingerx/crosshair.jpg

I was debating whether to put this last one up. It's not graphic, but some will find it emotional.  I think it was taken yesterday (before this last incident):

http://home.mchsi.com/~dingerx/cer.jpg
Title: USMC Patrol Ambushed
Post by: Thrawn on June 22, 2004, 08:53:11 PM
Quote
Originally posted by FUNKED1
These days we put them in jail and subject them to fraternity hazing pranks.



Like beating them to death.
Title: USMC Patrol Ambushed
Post by: Yeager on June 22, 2004, 10:25:36 PM
geeze thrawn your an a-hole
Title: USMC Patrol Ambushed
Post by: Thrawn on June 22, 2004, 11:37:25 PM
Oh yeah, well you're a poo poo head.
Title: USMC Patrol Ambushed
Post by: Flit on June 22, 2004, 11:38:26 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Red Tail 444
why would they have been shot once if it was a gunfight, and given all the hostage taking, would it not have been easier to Just capture them?

man this is turning into a mess....

message is clear.. do Not be takin prisoner
easy to say where I'm at (not there), but these people don't believe in the concept of "POW"
Title: USMC Patrol Ambushed
Post by: Nash on June 23, 2004, 12:21:28 AM
That's gonna take about five minutes to figure out, if true, right?
Title: USMC Patrol Ambushed
Post by: Nash on June 23, 2004, 12:30:41 AM
Just for a goof I'm gonna bet 3 days tops, reported, if this went down.

If not in three days, it didn't happen like that.

They're all gun shy now. Better they say it the way they want than having it said for them eventually anyway.
Title: USMC Patrol Ambushed
Post by: Nash on June 23, 2004, 12:41:07 AM
Triple-murder suicide in Iraq?

It's a story... if it's a story.

Wherever is there a need for a point? Did the story of the beheading of Berg make you change your life in any discernable way?
Title: USMC Patrol Ambushed
Post by: FUNKED1 on June 23, 2004, 12:47:45 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Nash
Just for a goof I'm gonna bet 3 days tops, reported, if this went down.

If not in three days, it didn't happen like that.

They're all gun shy now. Better they say it the way they want than having it said for them eventually anyway.


Unless the dude left a note they are going to be guessing on how it went down.  No way are they going to guess murder-suicide unless they get some proof.
Title: USMC Patrol Ambushed
Post by: Nash on June 23, 2004, 12:50:47 AM
Reason I say that (could be totally wrong or missing something) is that... Can't they pull the rounds out of the bodies and tell if it came from one of their own guns?

Unless maybe an Iraqi armed with a knife overpowered them, stole one of their guns and then shot them.

Or?
Title: USMC Patrol Ambushed
Post by: newtype on June 23, 2004, 01:06:19 AM
It sounds very strange. Dont they carry radios? Its possible they were outnumbered and were running and ran out of ammo but stayed together. If they didnt have radios. Hard for me to believe someone could sneak up on them, overpower them like in a running fight but not sneak up on them. And that would take alot of people to do.

As for looting them, well maybe the people have learned from Falluja and were afraid to desecrate the bodies of four service men fearing the retaliation. If your going to loot someone, why move them into a building or enclosure?

Murder seems possible but so remotely unlikely. Hard to imagine.
Title: USMC Patrol Ambushed
Post by: Nash on June 23, 2004, 01:14:49 AM
The suicide rate in Iraq has been "alarmingly high" (google it). Twenty-four as of May 03, plus seven shortly after returning home, and two in the hospital.

Not outside the realm of reality.

Still... I'm talkin' out my arse. I have no idea what could have gone down.

I just figure that with Dinger gettin' Yahoo mission debriefs from the field... whatever happened is eventually gonna come out.
Title: USMC Patrol Ambushed
Post by: Nash on June 23, 2004, 01:18:48 AM
May 03 (as in third day)... '04..... :)

My bad.
Title: USMC Patrol Ambushed
Post by: _Schadenfreude_ on June 23, 2004, 05:39:48 AM
Quote
Originally posted by FUNKED1
Unless the dude left a note they are going to be guessing on how it went down.  No way are they going to guess murder-suicide unless they get some proof.


Ballistics and empty cartridges at the scene will go some way to explain what happened.
Title: USMC Patrol Ambushed
Post by: Red Tail 444 on June 23, 2004, 09:44:24 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Fishu
In WWII anyone caught wearing enemy uniform would been shot on the spot by the enemies. No prisoners.


So there were no POW camps in WW2? :eek:

Murder-suicide... I don't even want to speculate. Ballistics technology can determine direction, range, angle, and type of firearm used. And I doubt insurgents are using 9MM sidearms.

I really hope there's another story than what's currently being speculated

Rafe
Title: USMC Patrol Ambushed
Post by: Fishu on June 23, 2004, 03:46:03 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Red Tail 444
So there were no POW camps in WW2? :eek:

Murder-suicide... I don't even want to speculate. Ballistics technology can determine direction, range, angle, and type of firearm used. And I doubt insurgents are using 9MM sidearms.

I really hope there's another story than what's currently being speculated

Rafe


Did you fail to notice I meant the enemy uniform?
aka german soldier wearing a british uniform.
Title: USMC Patrol Ambushed
Post by: Red Tail 444 on June 23, 2004, 03:59:22 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Fishu
Did you fail to notice I meant the enemy uniform?
aka german soldier wearing a british uniform.


Misread...thank youfor the clarification...mosquitoes drained most of my blood at the barn, runing a bit light today :)
Title: USMC Patrol Ambushed
Post by: Pongo on June 23, 2004, 04:12:47 PM
Murder suicide..is someone on drugs.
They evidently were captured and killed.  Thinking there was suicide involved is like thinking they went to the moon and asphixiated..
Title: USMC Patrol Ambushed
Post by: Rafe35 on June 23, 2004, 04:51:07 PM
Sergeant Wilkie with the Marine Public Affairs office in Dallas, Texas said Tuesday morning, "The incident is under investigation."
Title: USMC Patrol Ambushed
Post by: Pongo on June 23, 2004, 05:05:09 PM
Well..maybe Im being silly it has been known to happen. But taking that quote and thinking it means they killed each other..wow.
I hope not.
Title: USMC Patrol Ambushed
Post by: Fishu on June 23, 2004, 09:53:32 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Rafe35
Sergeant Wilkie with the Marine Public Affairs office in Dallas, Texas said Tuesday morning, "The incident is under investigation."


DoD is full of such notices with about every casualty.
Title: USMC Patrol Ambushed
Post by: Dinger on June 24, 2004, 02:31:18 AM
come on guys, sure there are murder-suicides in the military, but on combat sorties? Principle of parsimony. If you're gonna kill your buddies and yourself, you do it inside the wire.

Anyway, talked to my friend today. Didn't get past his platoon sargeant (whose boots can be seen in the last picture I posted), whose hmmwv ran over 3 AT mines stacked on top of each other. He took all three shaped charges and the vehicle flipped. The other seven were injured. That sucks
:(