Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: fluffy on June 22, 2004, 09:50:06 AM
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I thought that you all might enjoy reading an excerpt from 'Black Crosses Off My Wingtip', the war memoirs of Dr. Irving F. Kennedy,DFC (RCAF, retired), of Cumberland Ontario. These excerpts describe an encounter he had while a member of 93 Squadron, RAF patroling the Salerno Beach area in the summer of '43. He spotted and pursued 3 radial engined FW190 jabos which had just bombed shipping in the vicinity of Salerno Beach.
Through a misunderstanding he was alone after pursuing the FWs for about 50 miles.
"I knew that the Focke-Wulf 190 was an excellent aircraft of approximately the same performance as a Spitfire IX, but with different characteristics. It could not turn as tightly nor climb as quickly, both of which were expressions of lift. But it could dive and zoom, flick-roll and short flick-turn more rapidly than a Spitfire. In this it resembled an Me 109, but it had more power than the Messerschmitt. I preferred our characteristics, but the advantage, by those who discussed it, was generally considered to boil down to whichever pilot got the jump. I was quite confident, however, that I had the advantage in a Spit IX (or on this day, a Spit VIII), if the other fellow would stay and fight."
" I must say that I was not particularly concerned about the fact that there were three Focke-Wulf 190s here, because in my experience, when one engaged the leader of the flight, the other pilots tended to circle around the periphery and not get involved. They seemed to respect the leader's perogative. I don't know whether this was a general Luftwaffe tendency, and I don't recall ever discussing it with the fellows, but it was definitely the way I felt they behaved."
" This time however, I was closing in on one 190 when another one turned on me and I was involved with both of them for a couple of minutes. At that point, one of my cannons jammed. I was left with four machine guns and one cannon, the recoil from which caused the aircraft to yaw sideways. Then the two FW 190s followed their customary behaviour and circled around the periphery while their leader and I had (what we called) a good go at it."
" I think that this fellow was a very experienced pilot and perhaps the best that I had ever encountered up to that time. He absolutely refused to fight in a way that would allow me to utilize the Spitfire's superior qualities. In short, he would not stay with me because he knew that I could turn a tighter radius and get on his tail, and it would be all over. He fought entirely his way, and I couldn't do a thing about it. This consisted of a series of shallow dives at full speed, zooming up, flick-turning, and coming back at me, head-on. I would meet him head-on, then whip the Spit around tightly to port as he was going by, with full throttle the whole time, watch him zoom up out of range and flick-turn around to come down at me again, by which time, of course, I would have completed my tight turn."
" Sometimes I got a short burst head-on. But I acknowledge that with the long nose of the Spitfire, it was difficult to pull on the little bit of deflection that was necessary without losing the Focke-Wulf under the nose, and presenting a target. So some of these short bursts were pure intimidation just before he would zoom by my wingtip."
" I had never worked so hard in a scrap. My aircraft behaved very well (other than the jammed cannon) as I jerked it around mercilessly, pulling back as hard as I could on the stick, producing so much G-force that my mouth fell open every turn: the masseter muscles were overcome by gravity force and I couldn't keep my jaws clenched shut. This meant that after each turn I had to reach up and pull my oxygen mask down again when my lower jaw got below it. No problem, but inconvenient."
" "Damn you," I swore. "Why won't you stay with me?""
" But I knew the answer. And I knew that he knew, and that's all there was to it. Well, almost all."
" Finally, I got a fair lick at him and saw strikes, and a piece of his sheet metal tore off and fell away like a leaf in the wind. My first impression was that it was a piece of the cowling, but I didn't see any smoke or fire. Focke-Wulfs were formidible. Air-cooled engines had no radiators for glycol leaks. Then I wondered if he had just jettisoned a slip tank. But he couldn't have because he had been bombing and couldn't carry both, and in any case I would have seen an external tank. Certainly, the other two Focke-Wulfs which I was watching out of the corner of my eye did not have drop tanks. So it must have been sheet metal."
" Anyway, I lost him. We were down near the ground when two more FW 190s in fairly close formation appeared from the east, probably Foggia, and I thought it prudent to leave: I was a long way from home. I left the throttle open for a few minutes, but didn't see any Focke-Wulfs following."
The author, Dr.Kennedy, went on to fight in Normandy and survive the war, being shot down by ground fire and escaping with the help of the French resistance.
He was eventually credited with 14 enemy aircraft destroyed and 3 shared kills after engagements with BF109s, FW190s, and Junkers 52 transports while flying SpitVs, VIIIs, and IXs. After the war he became a medical doctor. His book is published by GSPH, ISBN 0-919431-82-8
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Thx!
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Originally posted by fluffy
I thought that you all might enjoy reading an excerpt from 'Black Crosses Off My Wingtip', the war memoirs of Irving F. Kennedy (RCAF retired)
Thanks, Twang, great read.
- oldman
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Another LW HO dweeb
:lol
Great read, goes to prove to everyone it's all about the pilot, not only the machine...
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pulling back as hard as I could on the stick, producing so much G-force that my mouth fell open every turn: the masseter muscles were overcome by gravity force and I couldn't keep my jaws clenched shut.
hehe
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great read. I found the below exerpt to be veeeeeeery interesting.
" I must say that I was not particularly concerned about the fact that there were three Focke-Wulf 190s here, because in my experience, when one engaged the leader of the flight, the other pilots tended to circle around the periphery and not get involved. They seemed to respect the leader's perogative. I don't know whether this was a general Luftwaffe tendency, and I don't recall ever discussing it with the fellows, but it was definitely the way I felt they behaved."
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hehe
and then Urchin finally voxed back:
WELL WTF DO YOU THINK I WANT YOU TO DO???
to me as I was perched a few hundred above in a jet...
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Why is that Shane?
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Originally posted by Shane
" I must say that I was not particularly concerned about the fact that there were three Focke-Wulf 190s here, because in my experience, when one engaged the leader of the flight, the other pilots tended to circle around the periphery and not get involved. They seemed to respect the leader's perogative. I don't know whether this was a general Luftwaffe tendency, and I don't recall ever discussing it with the fellows, but it was definitely the way I felt they behaved."
:rofl Only in RL...only in RL....:rofl
He clearly never flew in the MA, where "real" pilots fly...:rolleyes:
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Now thats how a 190 should fly.
Fighting in Spit VIII against 190 JABOs?
Lets put a 190F against a VIII equivalent, say, IX against it in AH and see who dominates the fight. :rofl
Guess somebody's got his Tail spanked Red recently by a luftwheenie, eh?
:D
Good story fluffy!
-C+
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Very nice, thanks alot!
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Yeah, because those were Fw190Fs and the Spitfire F.Mk IX is soooo much like the Spitfire LF.Mk VIII.
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Actually Karnak I would guess they were Jabo equiped 190 A5's :)
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I agree Wilbus.
They are probably packing extra armour, hardpoints, and a boost system.
However, There is no way to tell though since they could simply be 190 "Normaljager's" fitted with a center hardpoint at the geschwader maintenance shop and sent out to drop a bomb.
Only facts we can really get from pilot exerpts are very general conclusions.
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck. It must be a duck.
Spit IX pilots did not fight 190's in the verticle and they knew the A/C was an equal.
Great read! I think the rottenfliegers in the kette (since they are flying in a kette and the time period I will bet they are jabostafflen or SchnellKampfgeschwader and most likely equipped with Umrustsatz's Jabo Aircraft.) are holding off because in the LW promotion and decorations were given out based on your kill score. Plus their rottenfuerher may have been teaching a new pilot and put them on the "perch" to watch his six and learn from his attack. Guess they learned that luck counts too! In fact sometimes that is the deciding factor.
Crumpp
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Definitively a "watch and learn lads" moment yes ... "Woups!"
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Crumpp! Glad you saw this - it is the story I mentioned to you in the CT. This group of FW190s started out with 4 planes. I can't recall what happened to the 4th one, but they got separated during the chase from Salerno beach, as did the rest of Kennedy's flight.
Dr. Kennedy gives a number of other accounts from engagements in the Italian theatre which, perhaps, I might add in here. A particularly interesting one is a similar engagement which he had with 109s (probably G4s) in the same time frame. In this case he blew a bounce through clouds, but turned back in to face the flight. All but the flight leader had external gun pods on the wings. He said that he and his squadron mates noted this often - that the "fellows" who knew what they were doing flew without the extra guns attached because they didn't need them. He had a similar experience with the flight circling while he dueled the leader. The fight ended on this occasion when the self-destruct charge on his radio exploded behind his seat and he thought was a cannon hit from a wingman. He and the 109s disengaged.
I'll post the excerpt if anyone is interested.
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Real life score: 0-0
Aces High Main Arena score: 1-0 and 2 assists.
Which is war and which is the game?
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Post it, Fluffy. Sounds like it would be a good read. What Kenney notes about the gondolas backs up what I have read in JG53 "Pik As".
Crumpp
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Originally posted by Halo
Real life score: 0-0
Aces High Main Arena score: 1-0 and 2 assists.
Which is war and which is the game?
It's pretty funny isn't it? The more history I read the more I find that real WW2 pilots were HOing warprolling gangbanging dweebs. :)
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Wilbus,
So would I. That was why I made the snide comment about the Charge's Fw190F-8s.
He was trying to setup a scenario in which overarmored aircraft would be victimized by a Spit and then use that to claim the Fw190F-8's model was porked.
At least that is how I saw it.
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1 Spit attacks 3 190's, hurts the leader and then gets away.
Nice :D
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Ops Karnak RGR, I missed his post.
I really don't think the 190's were F's, although there were some F's in service most of those were on the Eastern front.
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Bringing the 190 into the spotlight a bit, there was, I belive, a variant, we could use in AH.
Something like a lightened or pure fighter, I think from the a8 series. It would turnfight if pushed to it.
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None of the 190 Normaljager's could turnfight very well that I am aware of except against a few USAAF fighters. There is evidence that the outboard cannon were removed by pilots for pure Air to Air work in order to lighten the 190 and improve the turning circle. They still were not turnfighters even then.
Turnfighting is overrated in Reality. I just read an RAF report on flying a 109G14 were it took the 4.5 seconds at, I think, 250 IAS to roll the plane 360 degrees. It was just a tad worse than the Spitfire. The 190's roll was stable, controllable, and fast. It could roll 360, according to what I have read, anywhere from 1.5 seconds to 2.5 seconds. With the ability to roll, change direction, accellerate quickly, and a good zoom climb the 190 was more than a handfull without having to turn turning.
It was an energy fighter from the day it entered combat. Kurt Tank could have put bigger wings on it. In fact they did. They increased the wing size over the V1 in the V5. The new wing reduced Top Speed by about 10 mph but increased manuverability all around.
Crumpp
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Should be 10Km/hr not MPH.
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A4s or A9s?
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"At least that is how I saw it."
That was my intention. Sorry 'bout that. :)
BUT, I really don't see much difference in IX and VIII.
And A5:s with extra armour and hardpoints would be nearly the same as F to me.
It was interesting that Mr. Kennedy was pulling that much G and the FW was already diving at him. I really find it hard to believe a similar scenario in AH.
Then again I'm not a very good pilot -mediocre at best...
I really don't want this thread to turn into LW-RAF debate. I was just put off by something that was commented earlier, sorry.
-C+
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I remember a real life accounter, P51C vs an unknown brand of 190, where the 51 got the first burst, and from that damage, the 190 dropped one gear. The 190 turned into the drag, and out-turned the 51 until the 51 pilot dropped the flaps and turned the tables again.
That same 51 pilot actually said he would have preferred the Spitfire in a tough fight like that.
(He flew Spits as well)
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Oh yeah Angus, you are correct.
Generally speaking:
The P51B/C was an A/C the FW-190A had about the same turn radius with the P51 having a "slight" advantage. The P51D and FW-190 turnfought in RL. Got some gun camera footage of a P51D FW-190 turnfight. The poor guy in the 51 gets outturned and shot down.
P47 before the paddle blade for sure was another USAAF A/C the FW 190 could outurn depending on speed and altitude. After the paddle blade I'm not so sure.
The Typhoon was another A/C. Not sure on the P38 but I believe it too was outturned by 190A. Have to check my resources. Anyway their where some planes out there the 190 could turnfight. However turnfighting was not one of it's strengths.
Crumpp
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I./ and II./Sch.G.2 had A-5/U8s, /U3s and F-3s in the summer of '43 based at such places as Gerbini, Milis, Castelvetrano, Vibo Valentia, Ottana and Aquino.
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Originally posted by Crumpp
The Typhoon was another A/C. Not sure on the P38 but I believe it too was outturned by 190A. Have to check my resources.
Depend heavily on the context.
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Context is the RAF test flights.
Not sure what you are saying Straffo. Your English is garbled.
Crumpp
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yep ... it just show I changed my mind in the middle of the sentence :D
Hurry to find your document ,I want to see it :)
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Straffo,
The P38F was the model tested against Fabers 190A3.
Above 23,000 feet the P38 was 6-8mph faster with the lead increasing the higher you go.
23,000 feet and below the FW-190A3 was faster from a Maximum of 15 mph faster from sea level up to 8000 feet. At 15,000 feet the 190 is 5-8 mph faster.
Climb rate - The 190 is superior below 20,000 feet. The 190 climbs at the same angle and is 20 mph faster in the climb. The zoom climb of the 190 was superior to the P38 up until 20,000 feet. After that the P38 becomes superior.
Roll rate - P38 was hopelessly inferior
Turn rate - Above 140 mph the 190 outturned the P38. Below that the p38 was superior.
Accelleration - The 190 was superior at all heights.
Dive - The 190 was better particularly in the initial accelleration.
Crumpp
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I was thinking of the typhoon trial :)
I won't be surprise to see the 190 superior in :
-climb
-acceleration
-roll
and inferior in
-dive
-level speed.
For turn rate it depend ,the initial turn rate of the typhoon is IMO better ... after the 1st circle the 190 should be superior ...
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I've read a ADFU trial comparing typhoon and spit V where it was said that in initial part of a turn the typhoon was in a firing position ... but after 2 turn the spit was on her 6.
Sadly I'm unable to retrieve my source (organisation is not my strongest point :D) ...
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Ahh the Typhoon!
Well the 190 was having engine trouble and that test had to be abbreviated. The information they give is:
Speed - About equal with the Typhoon having a slight advantage until 2000 feet.
Climb - 190 is very much superior. The Typhoon climbs at a faster speed by much lower rate. Zoom climb was about the same.
Dive - The 190 is superior in initial dive accelleration and dives about the same speed. The controls of the Typhoon are not as light and responsive as those of the 190.
Turn radius - About as equal as two planes can get. both test pilots were of the opinion that niether A/C could gain on the other. It is noted that the Typhoon test pilot was a very experienced pilot from the Hawker Factory and the 190 pilot was reluctant to push the A/C that close to the ground. An experienced German pilot probably could have turned tighter.
roll rate - The 190 was superior with the Typhoon being unable to keep up with changes in direction when the 190 rolled and then turned.
accelleration - From a slow speed the 190 is very much superior to the Typhoon. At fast speeds the A/C accellerate the same.
Hope that helps!
Crumpp
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What kind of Typhoon was that?
Anyway:
"Climb - 190 is very much superior. The Typhoon climbs at a faster speed by much lower rate. Zoom climb was about the same. !
How much difference in FPM?
Angle in climb is interesting. If they were doing the same fpm, the Typhoon would probably pull away from the 190 in the climb.
I've heard that the P38 pilots used this as an escape maneuver while fighting zekes in the PTOŽ, climbing away at 1500 fpm doing 300 mph.
Would be fun to philosophize more about this :)
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Yes the situation is exactly reversed with the Spitfire. the 190 climbs at a faster rate but shallower angle. If a 190 pilot tried to directly follow a Typhoon then he would soon find the Typhoon above him. You would have to compare a climb graph to determine exactly what the rate was at a determined altitude.
I was surprised at the speed and dive. I expected the Typhoon to be very much superior in both.
Crumpp
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I think I read somewhere, that generally the Typhoon and later the Tempest were easily faster in level flight, not to mention a shallow dive. Same goes with the mossie.
A tiffy pilot described this as having no worries being caught by a 190 or a 109, - he would just open for full power if he needed.
Maybe also faster cruising speeds. After all, in WW2, the merge often occured just around cruising speed, not top speed as in AH.
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Here is the Tempest V trails--Enjoy!
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TACTICAL COMPARISON WITH TYPHOON IB
13. The comparison is fairly close and clear because the aircraft are fairly similar, differing chiefly in wing section only. The wing loadings are similar (37.4 lbs. Tempest, and 39.7 lbs. Typhoon)
Radius of Action
14. The Tempest, as it stands, (no nose tank or long range tanks) has approximately the same range as the Typhoon IB without long-range tanks. The fuel and oil capacities of the Tempest are 132 gallons and 14 gallons respectively, compared with 154 gallons and 16 gallons of the Typhoon. The fact that the Tempest cruises at 15-20 mph faster than the Typhoon at the same engine settings approximately cancels out the discrepancy in fuel load. A Tempest fitted with a nose tank (30 gallons) and the 45 gallon long-range tanks (252 gallons total) would have about 1 1/4 times the range of a Typhoon IB with maximum fule load (243 galls. total).
Speeds
15. According to the offical speed curves, the maximum speeds of the Tempest at all heights are 15-20 mph faster. This is also true for all intermediate settings.
Climbs
16. The Tempest climbs at a slightly steeper angle and at the same airspeed producing 200-300 ft. increase in maximum rate of climb. Because of its greater cleanliness, its zoom climb is much better.
Dive
17. For the same reasons as the zoom climb, the Tempest pulls ahead. As the speed is increased it does so more rapidly. The fact is it has the best acceleration in the dive yet seen at this Unit.
Turning Circle
18. Very Similar. Any difference appears to be in favour of the Typhoon. This is too slight to alter combat tactics.
Rate of Roll
19. The Tempest has the better rate of roll at all speeds
Conclusions
20. Taken all round, the Tempest V is a great improvment on the Typhoon IB.
Search View and Rear View
21. The all-round view from the pilot's cockpit is excellent, especially the rear view. This has been made possible by the "tear drop" hood which gives the pilot a better all-round unobstucted view than any other aircraft- Hun or friendly. It is also fitted to some Typhoons.
Sighting View and Fire-Power
22. The aircraft is fitted with the Mark II sight. The installation should be modified in some cases to produce direct reflection on to the windshield. The sighting view is about the same as the Typhoon, being approximately 4 1/2 degrees. It is also fitted to some Typhoons.
23. The Tempest is a steady gun platform. Air-to-ground the aircraft has the same slight tendency as the Typhoon to fly into the ground, being not so good as the Spitfire in this respect. The guns cannot be depressed any lower than parallel to the datum, so this defect cannot be overcome.
Armour
24. Of a similar design and installation as on the Typhoon aircraft, with the exception that the head-piece is a trifle larger in size.
Thickness of headpiece - 9 mm
Thickness of back pieces 6 m.m.
All fuel tanks are self-sealing. Bullit-proof windscreen is of "Dry-cell" type. Front side of outer gun ammunition tanks have a piece of 1/8" armour plate.
COMPARISON WITH MUSTANG III
Range and Endurance
25. By comparison the Tempest without nose tank or long-range tanks, has no range. When the extra fuel is available it should have a little more than half that of the Mustang III fitted with two 62.5 gallon long-range tanks, but without the extra 71 gallon body tank.
Maximum Speed
26. The Tempest V is 15-20 mph faster up to 15,000 ft., there is then no choice to 24,000 ft, when the Mustang rapidly pulls ahead, being about 30 mph faster at 30,000 ft.
Climbs
27. These compare directly with the results of the speed tests. At similar performance height the Tempest has a better zoom climb.
Turning Circle
28. The Tempest is not quite as good as the Mustang III.
Rate of Roll
29. The Tempest is not so good. This attribute may be improved upon later aircraft with re-designed ailerons.
Conclusions
30. The Mustang III has superior range of action and general performance above 24,000 ft. Conclusions should not be drawn below this height, but the Tempest has a much better rate of climb and speed below 10,000 feet.
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With a 190A3
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COMBAT TRIALS AGAINST FW.190 (BMW.801D)
Maximum Speed
38. The Tempest is nearly 50 mph faster at all heights. It is estimated that the Tempest V may be very slightly faster than the new FW.190 (DB.603) up to 20,000 ft.
Climb
39. Except below 5,000 feet the FW.190 (BMW.801D) has a slightly better maximum rate of climb. Because of the Tempest V's speed and clean lines however, the Tempest has a markedly better zoom climb, where the speed is kept high. Against the new FW.190 (DB.603) it is estimated that the Tempest will have a markedly superior climb below 5,000 feet, but a similar maximum climb above that height.
Dive
40. The Tempest pulls away rapidly in a dive from all heights.
Turning Circles
41. There is very little difference in turning circles between the two aircraft. If anything a very slight advantage lies with the Tempest.
Rate of Roll
42. The Tempest V cannot compare with the FW 190.
Conclusions
43. Similar tactics should be used against the FW.190 as used by the Typhoon squadrons, advantage being taken of high speed. Such handling should prove most effective. The Tempest has an exceptional ground height performance even (estimated against the FW.190 (DB.603).
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Crumpp
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Crummp I think this is not the Typhoon we have in AH.
I'm speaking of the 190/Typhoon comparaison you posted, not the post just above
Maybe also faster cruising speeds. After all, in WW2, the merge often occured just around cruising speed, not top speed as in AH.
Don't get me started on this fuel multiplier stupidity again ... because of this "feature" it just work backward
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I think it is actually two different Typhoons or different booast levels just like most Military A/C. They evolve over their service life. The first evaluation is against Faber's A3 with and Early model Typhoon. The Tempest Evaluation is a later model Typhoon vs a mid-war (most likely 190A4/U8) 190. It could also quite possibly be a 190G8. The RAF test flight had both models of 190 to test however they did not get a flyable G8 until fairly late in '44.
The A/C Brown flys in his book in Feb '44 is a 190A4/U8 and it is not retired from the RAF test flight until Oct '44 due to a landing accident.
This flight test occurs in Jun '44.
Crumpp