Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: MaddogWx on June 22, 2004, 05:55:08 PM
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Ok I hate the sound of the slats in the game - not the flaps but SLATS. That clicking sound seems really unrealistic. Were they hydrolic, electric, or hand cranked in the real planes?
If I ever remember I will just go in and turn that sound down to zero.
Also while I am whineing...I believe they (slats) were selected by the pilot and not automatic(?)...when I fly the LA7 and dog fight with it they extend and retract frequently...I understand this is because of the changes in angle of attack and speed...but could we get a manual control for them?
The flaps in the game sound like the electric flaps in a Cessna...they WERE hand cranked were'nt they?
:aok
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slats were automatic on the 109 i know for sure, spring loaded.
if you dont like the sound delete it, or goto sounds and lower the volume for them
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Originally posted by MaddogWx
Ok I hate the sound of the slats in the game - not the flaps but SLATS. That clicking sound seems really unrealistic. Were they hydrolic, electric, or hand cranked in the real planes?
:aok
none of the above! they are springloaded to extend as air speed over wing drops.
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No they were not spring loaded. They were hinged freely. Aerodynamic forces pull them out.
... With a loud bang I might add.
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TY GScholz - Maybe the sound and frequency of actuation in the game is correct? Ok I am going to stop being lazy and research a bit. I always liked the planes from that era...time to learn more!
I will turn the sound down though.
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NP.
I also see you asked about the flaps. They were electrical on the 109 and 190, so was the gear (and trim on the 190).
Edit: On the La-7 I belive they used air (from a pressurized bottle).
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Originally posted by GScholz
and 190,
why dont we have them on the 190 then???
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Originally posted by JB73
why dont we have them on the 190 then???
He was referring to flaps... 190s have flaps, but not slats.
My regards,
Widewing
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He was talking about flaps in that post, which the FW most definately has.
J_A_B
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Originally posted by MaddogWx
Ok I hate the sound of the slats in the game...when I fly the LA7 and dog fight with it they extend and retract frequently
That's what you get for flying the la7.
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I flew a Socata rallye in France, this thing has slats. When they extend they sound fairly close as in the game:)
(http://www.flyrallye.com/Rallye_Gallery/r235-i.jpg)
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The slats in the Rallye are interconnected and cannot open separately, was this the case in any WW2 era planes?
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just for the record, i love the slats noise it really adds to the game IMHO :)
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Mora, as I recall, the slats were independant.
LTARsqrl
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Originally posted by GScholz
NP.
I also see you asked about the flaps. Edit: On the La-7 I belive they used air (from a pressurized bottle).
Flaps and gear were hydraulic on the Lavochkins .....air was for brakes, gun arming, bomb release, engine starting(La7 only) and emergency gear lowering.
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I have read that at the beginning of the 109 line when the auto slats were introduced, they gave the 109 an edge in turning at low speed over most other aircraft, but the loud bangs and instant lift scared the pilots so much they didnt like get slow enough for the slats to pop.
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Speed has nothing to do with the operation of the slats, only angle of attack. Pull hard enough on the stick at any speed and they pop out (unless the wings snap off first).
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lol duh
i knew 190's had flaps... it just sounded like he was saying they had leading slats.
he must be having trouble translating that dng norwegian again GS !
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*lol* ;)
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Well speed of airflow over the wings has everything to do with it. You get slow the airflow slows, the slats pop.
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Nope. The speed of the airflow is inconsequential (as long as it is enough to remain laminar), only the angle of attack matters.
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Really? I have to argue with you on that one. That seems like a terrible design to me. It also explains little about how on earth they could use them in level take off.
From Col. Kit Carson
What was new for fighter design was the leading edge slats which ran 46% of the span. There was no damping device fitted to the slat mechanism, they'd bang open at 120 mph with the airplane clean or at 100 mph with the gear and flaps down. Each control surface was mass-balanced. Another unusual feature was that as the flaps were lowered, the ailerons automatically drooped, coming down 11 degrees for the full flap movement of 42 degrees.
I------------
if it were angle of attack, you tell me what is going to happen when you pull into a steep climb at 400 mph?
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Or perhaps we are talking across each other. I am saying that slowed airflow over the wings causes the slats to pop, improving lift at low speed, and of course that means better handling at your high angles of attack (and slow speed, high angles of attack at high speed dont need no stinking slats). High angles of attack have nothing to do with the slats kicking out though.
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GScholz is correct: Speed is Irelevent as long as you a fast enough to have the force to push the slats back. Note when your stoped they just hang, as you start moving they retract. But that speed is well below stall speed.
ergRTC: Do a little research on what AOA is. AOA has nothing to do with the direction of flight (i.e. flying level at take off) AOA is the angle at which the airstream is striking the wing. Try this little experiment. Bring up the target with the .target 500 command.
Now center up on the target and engage level auto pilot . Let your speed build to above 300 and note where the cross hairs are.
Now pull the throttle way back. As the plane slows down you are still flying level, but the nose will start to rise. This change in angle is AOA, At a centern AOA the slats will extend , this is basicly do to the airflow striking more of the bottom of the slat as the AOA increases.
Now if you are going fast and pull back on the stick, once that same AOA is reached the slats will extend.
HiTech
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Oh please not Carson again.
At 400 mph the pilot would not be able to achieve enough angle of attack for the slats to open ... he would black out first, or overstress the airframe. However at say 250 mph flying level the slats would be retracted, but if the pilot pulled hard into a climb or turn the slats would pop out. Try it in AH or any other sim that models slats.
About 75% of the wing's lift is generated by the negative pressure generated on the top of the wing, at about 25% of the wing's chord. When the angle of attack increases so does this suction force, and the direction of this force moves forward. The slats are literally sucked out.
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? How very strange, but that is speed then isnt it? I guess at high speed the wing is biting the air "straight" no matter which direction it is going. I always thought of AOA as the wings attitude to away from level, not correct I see.
Thanks for clearing that up.
Shouldnt you be doing something... well more important than reading the bbs? ;)
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I dont know, at least carson was there. How many fighter planes have you flown? Were you a pilot in ww2? Just those two factors alone give me a little more respect for his perhaps narrow opinion than those arm chair piltos like myself.
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The only time the wings would "bite the air straight" is in a 0G dive. As long as the wings support weight some AoA is necessary to provide lift.
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Yes, I see now. I was aware of the principal, just not the term used. I am glad we had this little discussion.
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*lol* You're not the first one having to be corrected by Hitech ... been there done that, as they say. ;)
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It's just that Carson has been quoted so many times, and he was wrong in much of his conclusions. I guess I've grown a dislike for the man (me being a 109 fan and all).
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Hard not to be a fan of 109s, just wish they had better high speed handling. One of my favorite (get the 109g10 off my arse) moves in ah2 is split S twice and watch them barrel into the earth in a state of complete blacked out compression.
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Hehe ... yes you'd better resist the urge to follow split-s' if you're fast in a 109. I prefer just to zoom up in an Immelmann. That way I'm above and going in the same direction ... with plenty E to spare. The 109 is a great E fighter ... I love it! :)
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Originally posted by GScholz
I also see you asked about the flaps. They were electrical on the 109 and 190, so was the gear (and trim on the 190).
The flaps were manual in the 109, operated with a wheel, which was on the left side of the seat. The elevator trim wheel was right next to the flap wheel. This way the pilot could turn both wheels, trimming while lowering the flaps.
Here's a picture showing the wheel: http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/bf109cockpit/CockpitPortMap.html
Camo
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Thanks. I stand corrected. :)
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wow, that thing must be geared to hell, how many rotations do you think it would take to lower the flaps? That little wheel with that little surface to grab, maybe it was power assisted?
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Originally posted by hitech
GScholz is correct: Speed is Irelevent as long as you a fast enough to have the force to push the slats back. Note when your stoped they just hang, as you start moving they retract. But that speed is well below stall speed.
A bit of an aside, the A-4 Skyhawk had the same type of slats as these WWII planes. My dad flew A-4's, so I asked him if the way AHII models them is accurate and he said "Yup, thats exactly how they really work. That game has that much detail? Interesting."
I forgot to ask him if he could hear them when they would extend or retract, but he was pretty impressed with the level of detail in the FM of AHII.
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Originally posted by LLv34_Camouflage
The flaps were manual in the 109, operated with a wheel, which was on the left side of the seat.
So can we deploy the AH 109 flaps quicker than was actually possible?
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"So can we deploy the AH 109 flaps quicker than was actually possible?"
Yup.
If improper flap operation is what you're worried about, the F6F is about the most blatantly wrong (unless it's been fixed in the last couple versions)--the F6F could only operate its flaps as up or down, not incremented as it could in AH.
J_A_B
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The F6F-5 didn't have combat flaps?
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Originally posted by GScholz
I also see you asked about the flaps. They were electrical on the 109 and 190, so was the gear
Gear in the 109 was operated by hydraulics.
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"The F6F-5 didn't have combat flaps?"
No. It did not. Its flaps worked basically like the spitfire's do---either up, or down. The flap control in the cockpit gave the pilot no ability to select anything in-between.
This is confirmed by the F6F-5's manual, if you want to look it up.
J_A_B
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that's going to suck...:D
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Well the Lavochkins were operated by a 5 port valve so they could be set to any increment............ to duplicate that AH would have the flap opening for only that period that the button was pressed.......same with closing.
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While we are on the subject of slats, I never realized the 262 has slats between the engine nacelle and the fuselage as it does in AH2. Is this accurate?
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Originally posted by Wmaker
Gear in the 109 was operated by hydraulics.
Doh! I stand corrected again ... better not make a habit of this. ;)