Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: TT on January 12, 2000, 08:21:00 PM
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The speed of the P51 is so out of preportion to the rest of the planes, that it just ruins this game. Ive long since lost count of the sorti,s that have been ruined for me, by a p51 that I never even exchanged shots with. Just haveing the damn thing lurking around keeps you from engageing a con that you would jump right in with otherwise. I see more and more gangs of them flying togather all the time.
The only thing you can do is fly one yourself. Can you say one plane sim.
[This message has been edited by TT (edited 01-12-2000).]
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The Spitfire and Bf109 are pretty quick too, I think it's more the way people fly the Runstang, than the fact that it's so much faster than the other planes.
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TT;
I have a hard time realizing where you are coming from, on this issue. Any plane type lurking is a pain.
The lurkers tactic, at least when I do it, is to keep them bunched up and keep them turning. Hopefully you survive until re-enforcemets arrive, or nail a loner. It is a tactic as viable as any other. EX: Roping a Dope Tactic
Personally, "My Biggest Pain Plane" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) is the c.205. IMO that A/C is the best slasher in the game right now. If the 190 is a "Battle Axe" and the 51 is a "Long Sword", then the c.205 is a "Sabre".
BTW anyone else but me getting the "News, Announcements, & Information" bug? B-26 new plane... So happy... C'mon C'mon! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
In any happening, Good Luck!
Mino
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FWIW,
I fly the 51 as my default ride. The reasons are many and complex. Its fair to say that I fly the N1k, LA5 and Spitfire about half the rest of the time equally divided.
Now, I have been shot down on numerous occasions flying the P51 by other planes and they are usually Spitfires, N1Ks or B-17Gs.
The dedicated 109 and 190 drivers are starting to get seriously sped up and are becoming a quantifiable pain in the bellybutton as well.
So, while I sympathize with TT, I am also compelled to extend my perspective in order to provide balance to this discussion.
Yeager
[This message has been edited by Yeager (edited 01-12-2000).]
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I keep 109/190s just as tasty target, easy to shoot down because Bf109 doesnt climb as supposed to, and Fw190 is slow and flies like rock, when compares to another planes (same goes with Bf109)
I have noticed that every allie plane can do negative-G pushes far more better than ANY axis plane. (wonder whats the trick?)
If I want to do some hard neg-G push in 205, 109, 190 or niki, i need to trim down, still I am far behind that what P-51 or Spitfire can do *without* play with trims.
Bf109 needs heavily trimming..
C.205 needs even more trimming than Bf109 (once ack shot both wingtips, i couldnt keep it steady even with 10 MAN throttle, like i can do with all others)
C.205 has some big torque :P
I hope v.46 will do allie/axis planes more closer to be in the same game.
Though, C.205 and N1K2 are best ones you can have, but LW planes far from that.
P-51s flies like UFOs often.. doing loops at the deck over and over and some negative-G hartmann maneuvers... (that bf109 never will do)
Oh.. and most of all, P-51 does verticals like nothing compared to 109.. eh eh... (who did leave stall speed high on the 109?)
Ps. did someone tweak .50 calibers? they seem more powerful
*end of whine*
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OK, I am ready to whine again !! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
The P 51 is the master of 109 tricks. Period.
Whatever was 109 trick in WB, P 51 does it better than 109 in AH. Immelmann at lower speeds. Hammerheads and wingovers. Rudder reversals. Using rudder to slice in turns.
Yea, I know, it is beta, it is beta.
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LOL.. What's all the whining about?? I find the AH P51-D to be seroiusly treatened by anything higher than it.. La5's and Macchis are a particular bane of the P51. Goes without saying the Niki and Spit can kill it with ease too if the stang gets slow and turning. Certinaly the well flown LW Iorn is capable of ruining one's day with one little sqirt from those awsome kannonen.
Sure the Mustang is fast.. it's supposed ta be. Sure the Mustang is a superb E fighter; better than the FW or the 109 at E tactics when flown well.. it's supposed ta be. Thats the way it was.. and the way it is.
Cheer up.. it's only got 6 undermodeled .50's, and makes a wonderful target with that nice shiny aluminum skin. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Just soot one in the bellybutton for a few seconds and the tail falls off. Poke a hole in the radiator and the pilot has a real dilemma. Pull over the top of one with any of the T&B planes and get him into verticals and he's quickly done as toast. Oh.. and have I mentioned the wings tend to fall off at the worst moments?
The Mustang has plenty of achilles heels.. and Achilles himself only had one. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hang (who's bellybutton got pounded sore last night)
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PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8
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I been flying the 109 regularly lately. It rocks but p51 does it better (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) . I fought p51 tonite that was higher than me by 5k n i was in 109. He bnz me like 4 times. Finaly we were coalt and merge the 5th time. Boy can that p51 can climb compare to 109 i was just shock how but how. Anyhow this message is to help fix certain bugs in some of the planes. I still fly 109s n still fight p51s. Just wish they stick around n meet my 30mms (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) See you all in the unfriendly skies
Bash
wait maybe i should fly p51 too (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
www.fly.to/airwolves (http://www.fly.to/airwolves)
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Fishu;
*end of whine*
LOL <Salute> I know your postings well, I will believe it when I see it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hristo;
The P 51 is the master of 109 tricks. Period.
I am very close here to calling a 109 Whine Alert!. Go easy now, OK. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
All;
If HTC just happens to remove the P-51 from the game, what would happen?
1) Not as much to whine about, for a little while.
2) The "Next Best Plane" at doing what the P-51 does now, would simply takes its place and a whine would start anew.
3) HTC possibly loses alot of future potential customers, in essence, players that we all game against.
What would happen if HTC just happens to "De-Model" the P-51 to fit one "Special Interest Groups" mold of what the plane should be?
1) HTC creditability for every other plane in the set goes "KaPut".
2) HTC possibly loses alot of future potential customers, in essence, players that we all game against.
Don't make me pull my BIG stirring stick! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Mino
[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 01-13-2000).]
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I am very close here to calling a 109 Whine Alert!. Go easy now, OK
Just what should that mean ?!
I can't complain about your P51 ? I post an argumented statement and you answer me with a phrase ? Reread again...
Did you actually try those moves and then posted the reply, instead taking my words out of context ?! Or was it a reflex reaction ?
Go do a simple test. Take 109 and P 51 offline and record a minimum speed at which you can do clean Immelmann at given altitude. Proceed with hammerheads, wingovers and other reversals. Then come back and answer.
Slow speed reversals, rudder moves, which used to be 109 tricks (great power loading, excellent slow speed handling, superior rudder authority) are now in favor of the plane with inferior power loading, poor low speed handling, moderate rudder authority.
[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 01-13-2000).]
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Hristo
Wow! Fast response!
Let me first say, that if you have taken offense? Please accept my apology. I meant nothing other than some playful ribbing. I will "Eat Crow" here and now.
The "109 Whine Alert!" is nothing other than comments that come from my own thoughts, it is nothing sponsured by HTC nor by any other individual. It has nothing to do with the 109 as it is currently modeled in AH, nor planes that have existed in the real world.
However, I do enjoy reading the various messages posted here and read about every single one. Simply put, I grow tired of constant whining about A/C FM. The 109 is a hot one. The word whine rhymes with 9 so I think it is fine, and I go with it. (Whine Rhyme 9 Fine - I could be on to somthing here (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) )
As to flying the 109. I have tried to like it. I fly it 3 or 4 times every version, hoping that I will find something that I like about it. The 109 seems to be a plane that does not fit me, and there are other planes that I enjoy, so it is no big deal for me.
I can see where it might be a big deal for you and I encourage patience. There are 2 new versions of the 109 coming out soon. That has to be exciting. I have often considered that there might be the possibility of some behind the scenes 109 testing, in the arena envoirment, going on. AH is still Beta.
Even if AH were not in Beta, I can say that I consider HTC ideas about FM to be much better than mine, and I just don't worry about it. I would whine little about any planes FM anyway, because I have never actually flown any real plane modeled in AH. So, how the hell could I know how they might compare, or what the characteristics of each plane should be. How can I give you a validating answer?
This is another whine thread right? Cheer up! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Mino
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Point taken, Minotaur. No need to apologize, it was me who jumped first.
However, only reason I post these things are hope for HTC crew to read feedback of someone who puts considerable time in flying the 109.
The comparison with P 51 should be very obvious, and the things I pointed are easily comparable. I understand it is beta, but we have to leave the beat at some point.
P 51D can (or 109 can't) do a clean Immelann at 200 IAS at 15kft. The torque of 109 is no help either, but still. Negative elevator input is not up to the reputation of 109. Rudder authority needs some work too.
As, for other 109 versions, I don't know, it all depends on modeling. If you model G-6 with MW 50, it might be pretty competitive. If you put Umrust Motor in it, the same DB 605D as in our G-10, it will kick a@#.
Similar thing with our 109G-10. The DB 605D engine is not the most powerful the G-10 used to have. It cannot put 2000 hp, but only 1850 hp max, AFAIK.
Now, with 109 variants, why not the 109K-4 ? With DB 605ASCM engine ? Somewhere I read 452 mph at alt.
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One more questions for experts, please.
I remember reading in Green's "Warplanes of The Third Reich" that some 109G versions got devices that reduced <drum roll> ).....stick forces.
Now, please let me finish before you start laughing.
Apparently, these devices were ment to work with aileron and elevator input. However, only aileron devices were available, and only they were built in.
The result was that the aileron lightness was so unbalanced comparing to elevator input, that these units have been pulled out.
Now, my question is: Did later 109 variants used these devices in combination for ailerons and elevator ? What do you know of these devices ?
Right now I am at work, but will try to read Green again when I get home.
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I disagree about the next uber plane if the UFO-D is dropped. The rest are pretty even. The spits HO ability is out of perportion to what it is armed with. But other than that, im willing to fly any plane against any other plane without complaint.
I wont argue FM,s. I dont know enough about it. I will argue game balance however. This thing is like a 262 without the cannon. They should have a p51 night. Like the 262 night they have in WB.
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Last nite was the first time I was involved in a prolonged turn with flying a Spit against a Me109. The 109 got a few ping initially but the turning of the Spit after about three turns the 109 was in view. The pilot seen the trouble and disengaged by climbing, which left me wishing!
The way it should be. Yes?
I hate the C205!! Finally shot down another one last night but DAMN, it took awhile! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/cool.gif)
A fast P51 gets in and gets out so damn fast most of my gunnery on one is just a fleeting shot!
Both the P51 and F4U: Get in and get out!!
I seen an attack by a F4U a few night ago at F16 that was beautiful! The pilot came in at about 350 flew right over top of me an attacked a fellow Knight and blew him up with one quick high speed pass. I forgot the pilots name, but it was some flying!! I quickly turned around in an attempt to find friendier skies. hehe! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Damn Ghostrider! This bogey is all over me!!
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Hristo, i never heard from such devices.
I only have theese numbers:
They calculate the maximum torque that you can obtain with a maximum stick force
elevator (pull): max. 85Kg >> 31,4mkg
elevator (push): max. 70Kg >> 13,4mkg
ailleron: max. 30kg >> 6,0mkg
rudder: max. 150kg >> 20,0mkg
you can see that you get only a third of the elevator torque when you push the stick compared to pull the stick.
I think the P-51 profits most by the deficiencies of the FM at the moment.
Just have a look to the influence of fuel to the weight/ performance. Hristo, you did 2 or three weeks ago a climb test with 25% and 100%fuel load. Both, the 109 and the P51, lost with 100% compared to 25%fuel load about 500-700ft/min climb performance. BUT 100%fuel means MUCH MORE Volume fuel and thus weight for a pony than 100% for a 109.
Itīs always the same. I climb in a 109 with my external fuel tank and 100%fuel load to 22000ft. A P51 does the same with 50% fuel load. When we begin to start to fight, i drop my external tank and have 100%fuel load left. the P51 has now about 30-40% left. We both should have the same volume/mass/weight of fuel in our tanks left, but thatīs not correct modelled with the FM- The 109 suffers a lot more under itīs 100% fuel now.
Fuel load has also no influence to the roll-speed of the planes. You can load the wings of a P51 with hundreds of gallons of fuel, it still has itīs good rollspeed. It will still accerlerate to maximum rollspeed in a millisecond. If you roll it with maximum rollspeed, if you release your stick, youīll almost immediately stop rolling, though 5000kg weight are in motion, and some 100kg weight with a big distanz to the center point of rotation.
The FM does not simulate at the moment different rollspeeds for different flightspeeds, or the effect is very small. So it doesnīt make a difference whether a plane has front edge wings (slotted wings) to keep up ailleron control at low speeds or not.
Somebody said the .50 are undermodelled?? huw, they can easily kill a heavy armoured B17. And what is good against a buff works 10 times better against a fighter. I mean, a P51 must have the abillity to kill a buff here in the arena... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
niklas
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Ok, I wanted to stay outta this, but gawd am I sick of this anti-P51 whine, so.... <jumps into the fray>
Bull###t,Bull###t,Bull###t.
The P-51 is in no way overmodeled, especially after the latest tuning which removed much of its vertical ability.
Now, the 109 may be undermodeled in low speed handling, but that doesn't mean the P-51 is wrong.
Not sure of exact numbers with this version, but the 109G10 is actually faster at many altitudes, plus it can climb faster. And anything will outturn the P-51 if you have equal pilots, except maybe the 190.
One word. Tactics.
People seem to forget about all the inexperienced rookie Mustang drivers that get killed when they get caught low and slow, because they are just easy targets.
All they remember is the Pony's that sit above them methodically killing off the low and slow furballers.
What is happening is that Aces High is finally starting to develope some very good E-Fighters, who have learned how to fight with advantage and patience, and who can feed off the low fur practically at will.
Its not the plane, its the pilots. Its just that currently the P-51 is the best plane in the arena for these tactics. Take it away, and the same thing will happen with F4U's. Take away the F4U, and the 190 will do the job. No, your not currently seeing the the F4U or 190 do this. But thats because most (not all) of the pilots that have perfected the tactic are flying P-51's. Just like the better TnB pilots are flying Spitfires and C.205s. Most pilots pick the best plane for the tactics they use.
Any plane in the planeset will beat a P-51 given Co-E or Co-Alt situations. All the P-51 can do in that case is to run away like a screaming little girl. And if they don't start to run early enough, they will get caught by the other aircraft that accelerate much more quickly.
And the .50 cals being overmodeled? Try flying the plane some. I fly the P-51, but I also fly the N1K2 (alot) and the 190 (a little). The .50 cals take a sustained 3 to 4 second burst to kill. Either of the cannon birds can kill with a fraction of a second snapshot. And thats the way it should be.
Its not the plane, its the pilots. Period.
Fly Smart, stay high (and high isn't 10k), keep your speed up, and those Pony drivers can't touch you.
Dive low into the furball, get slow by turning and burning constantly, and get fixated on your target, and those Pony's will eat you up.
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Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires ;) "
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Amen Vermillion.
It sounds like a day care in here at times.
-Westy
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It's the same thing in every sim I've ever played; if one plane has a perceived edge over the others, the sky will be clouded with the numbers of people in it.
DoA had the Camel.
Brand W had the Spitfire.
AH has the P51.
It isn't the issue of which flight model is enhanced either. 1 vs. 1 any plane in this set is competitive if flown properly. It will come down to pilot skill. I can honestly say that, short of getting continuously vultched defending a field, precious few Mustangs have ever shot me clean out of the air.
But therein lies another problem- this is an arena. The ability of the P51 to zip in and out of fights relatively unscathed makes many people loathe it. Then, if a 51 pilot actually develops the skill to dogfight it, others will jump on the "unrealistic flight model" bandwagon. There is no way for a the 51 shed its dweeb image.
I submit there is no problem with the 51 per se, just the fact that the arena is too full of a single plane type. I wouldn't dare tell someone to fly or not fly a certain aircraft; that's their choice. I could wish that there were limits on type in the air at a given moment (but that isn't economically wise).
Individually, ants are no problem. Get a few thousand crawling all over you, and you have a big problem!
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Morning all, been enjoying all the posts and will say I agree with Vermillion,s last, except for the part about co alt co E stangs being beat every time by any plane.When you wrote that one verm you got off your point. Ie: ITS THE PILOT. According to what little I understand from reading Shaw, In that situation which ever pilot makes a mistake looses.
To prove the point: Last night I got shot down many times in a c205 and a p51. I was out turned, out climbed, out dove and out run by planes that (according to the posts) shoudn't be able to beat me that way. WHY? Cause I'm new at this. I don't fly well. Very little SA. Incorrect move at the wrong time. ECT, ECT... I believe it's the pilot. Sure some planes did somethings better than others. Pilots took aadvantage of that. But make a mistake with your Fav ride and some one else flying xxx is going to wax you. Trust me I have become an expert on being waxed. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
All in all it's been fun and I plan on being up there providing all of you with an easy kill till someday(sooner than later I hope) I get it right.
See ya on line
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Just to make my views clear. I am not arguing about P 51 in the arena, nor the tactics or matchups, or even 1 vs 1 combat.
I have only tried to limit the discussion to the low speed handling and maneuverability of 109, compared to P 51. In offline mode, doing simple maneuvers and watching the gauges. Low speed flight and everything connected to it.
Niklas, those numbers are great info. Please post some more on the 109, who knows, maybe designers don't have them. Also, please, post your source.
I will reread Green's 109 chapter again when I get home today.
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"Ive long since lost count of the sorti,s that have been ruined for me, by a p51 that I never even exchanged shots with. Just having the damn thing lurking around keeps you from engageing a con that you would jump right in with otherwise. I see more and more gangs of them flying togather all the time.
Believe it or not, the Germans whined about the same thing in late war. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Brian "Ripsnort" Nelson
"There is no reason anyone would
want a computer in their home."
Ken Olson, president, chairman and
founder of Digital Equipment Corp.,1977
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I dont like the 109 as much in this version as last but the skies are alot less full of 51s then they used to be so something must have happend. I see lots of 190s,la5s, 205s and nikis not as many f4us and 109s(but always some) Between the spit and 51 you still have about 25-30% of the planes. Thats not too bad. I think that AH has been very successful in this regard.
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Verm... Loved yer post.. Right on the money.
Hang (in the bullet riddled stang; limping home with a scorched engine; with half an ass, no flaps and sprung gear.. again. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif))
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PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8
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Combat23 let me clarify myself, because I agree with you totally (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Given pilots of exactly even skill, with the same amount of experience in their ride of choices, then ....
Any plane in the planeset will beat a P-51 given Co-E or Co-Alt situations. All the P-51 can do in that case is to run away like a screaming little girl.
Exception I.) The Fw190. These two planes are fairly evenly matched in all categories, except top speed (+ P51) and firepower (+190), that it is the only plane that may have a difficult time going 1 v 1 , Co-Alt, Co-E, with a Mustang. In this case even minute differences in piloting skill will be paramount.
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Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires ;) "
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OK, I will post my question in Aircraft & Vehicles forum.
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Exception 2. F4u-1 I drive the Hog a lot and have found that a co-E P-51 can be a real challenge. The 51 has better low speed handling, more acceleration, more speed at most altitudes, better climb rate, and equal guns. The only advantages the Hog has are roll rate and durability.
There are several P-51 pilots in AH that I do NOT want to meet co-E in my Hog. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
popeye
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Ok verm I'll buy that. Smart pilot would take his option and run. I would think that in a Perfect world 1v1, both pilots making no mistake (just about any two planes in correct time set) no one would get shot down.
see ya on line
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I call B S on all this skill business. This game is more about gang banging then skill. If your the bangee, you die. The banger, and you pat yourself on the ba ck and tell yourself how much skill you have. The p51 gangs magnify this to the point where it is absurd.
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Okay, TT, let's look at it from a different perspective:
You said:
The speed of the P51 is so out of preportion to the rest of the planes, that it just ruins this game..
Now, lets get rid of the 51 altogether, then someone would say this:
The speed of the FW190 is so out of preportion to the rest of the planes, that it just ruins this game...
Take away the FW190...
The speed of the F4U is so out of preportion to the rest of the planes, that it just ruins this game...
Take away the F4U...
The speed of the 109 is so out of preportion to the rest of the planes, that it just ruins this game...
Take away the 109...
The speed of the Spit is so out of preportion to the rest of the planes, that it just ruins this game...
Do you see where I'm getting? There are significant differences in airplanes, Joe Stalin didn't create them, or they would have all been the same speed, turn radius etc. You are always going to have a dominant A/C in a sim, no getting around it. Do what I do, I jump in a FW and 'hunt' nothing but P51's. It makes me feel better. Until the Dora comes out, the P51 will ALWAYS be the fastest plane in the game.
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Brian "Ripsnort" Nelson
"There is no reason anyone would
want a computer in their home."
Ken Olson, president, chairman and
founder of Digital Equipment Corp.,1977
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Pops: Won't the F4U outturn the P-51 too, lets not forget that? But I agree with you (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Like I said in my first post the P-51, F4U, and Fw190, all perform similarly in the same categories.
TT: Go ahead and call BS on the skill business (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Everyone is entitled to their opinon.
Being a good fighter pilot doesn't mean to just be a good stick and rudder man, or even an eagle eyed marksmen.
It also entails knowing how, when, and where to fight, so that your maximizing the strengths of your aircraft while minimizing your weakness's.
It sounds to me that your like to fly TnB planes, get in tight and mix it up, and then get miffed when a Pony driver sweeps in and blasts you while your vulnerable.
There's nothing wrong with either style, but you can't expect HTC to remove or cripple the FM of the Pony just because when flown correctly it is extremely effective against pilots of your style.
Thats just plain history, and was learned the hard way by every major power of the war.
If I remember correctly, you use to fly WB's under a different name, mostly in the ACA, but occaisonally in the beta arena's. You preferred the Ki-84 in easy mode, right?
"P-51 Gangs" ROFLMAO !! I like that. Maybe we should talk to Daddy over in WB's about becoming part of the Pony Mafia. When pilots named Guido and Luigi start to lead the top 100 lists, I am gonna be very very afraid (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure,
Dicta Verm: "Never give the suckers an even break!" or translated "Never engage without an advantage"
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Verm, the F4U won't out-turn the Pony at the moment IMHO. I love the Hawg, but the last couple of days I switched to the Pony to give it a try. Wow, what a difference.
I think the slight imbalance we are seeing is due to fuel load problems and... drumroll... energy retention. Now the F4U is supposed to be one of the best and most pure E fighters in WWII. At the moment, a CoE Pony with a compentent pilot will eat my lunch if I'm in the Hawg. What is blowing me away flying the pony is how much I can pull and still be fast. Damn, I can't slow this thing down. I start working a guy from 15k, keel him, find another, keel him. At this point I'm thinking I'm low and slow.. but I realise I'm still at 10k! I'm not saying the Pony is wrong... I suspect the F4U is porked actually, but in comparison the F4U is a brick.. and it should be close to the Pony in this respect, very close.
My main point for the rest of the gang is that the Pony is the best E fighter in the game, by a LONG way right now. It's this great energy retention that is giving the Pony the kills right now, and it's why the general impression is that it's so much faster.
Those of you fighting against the Pony remember it's big weakness. The Pony CAN'T slow down! I know it isn't much, but against a smart pilot it may be your only ace. The 51 is far from the best turner in the planeset, but with this great E retention I can use the verticle and "out turn" about anything.
Verm, we gotta devise some E retention tests and get some help running 'em. I'll put up a site with the info.
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Lephturn
The Flying Pigs
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I wonder whats the talking of Fw190s speed..
Even spitfire catches 190 and bunch of other planes...
Not to mention that real 190A8 did fly as fast as 405-408mph top speed... (never had that fast ride in it..)
Remember that Spit IX top speed is 405mph in the game (tested..)
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Fishu why don't you do some testing of the FW190A8 in AH if you don't think it's right. This general moaning about it doesn't get you anywhere. I'll see about testing the F4U, why don't you do something on the FW?
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Lephturn
The Flying Pigs
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Well it`s just my opinion but the P-51 is untouchable if flown properly. Before the FW-190 came out 90% of my sorties were in the Pony and it seems to be even better now than it was then. I took a P-51 up for a couple of sorties this morning(had not flown it in a couple of revisions) and couldn`t believe the difference between it and the FW-190-NIGHT AND DAY! History seems to indicate that these two aircraft were more evenly matched than what were seeing in Aces High. I`m speculating that the P-51`s FM is more refined at this point due to its "length of service" in the sim-remember it was one of the first modeled. BTW I think Fishu does make some good points-just maybe his delivery needs some work. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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}]
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
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I think the big problem with the Fw190 right now, is the fact that it currently doesn't have MW50.
There was a whole thread on this just a couple of days ago, that Wells started.
Those 400+ top speed numbers come from aircraft equiped with MW50, I have seen the copies of the original testing documents that Weretiger sent me.
Pyro seemed to indicate that he thought the MW50 was optional on the A8 and wasn't actually used very much.
I encourage everyone to visit that thread and comment there.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure,
Dicta Verm: "Never give the suckers an even break!" or translated "Never engage without an advantage"
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TT lol
The p51 is suppose to be faster than all other planes in AH at this time period. Not sure what you whine is. P51 was built for speed not T&B.
If this was not the case,we would all be speaking German (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Actually, the Germans had planes as good as or better then the P-51. But, fortunately, we (The Allies) bombed their Industry so they couldn't build them, bombed their oil fields so they couldn't fly them, and won the war through attrition (Our Industry out produced their's: Of course the ground fighting, tactics, and all else had alot to do with it. Not to mention the infighting within the Luftwaffe and much of the German Command Structure, etc, etc). The Luftwaffe was mostly overwhelmed by the numbers of allied aircraft in the air. Of course, pilot attrition also meant fewer experienced combat pilots to fight for the Axis.
As for the Uber Planes, much of it really does rely on tactics. The only planes whose performance I truly wonder about in this game are the bombers. However, I don't have any hard data on their entire flight envelope. It just seems to me, based on what I have read, that the B-17 has the performance of the B-29 in here. Would like to see some actual performance data for the buffs if anyone has it (thumbprints, carpet plots, etc.)
Thx.
P.S.-Having fun anyway.
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I think the 190 mark comparable to the 51D would be the Dora, not the A8, just as the -4 Corsair is, generationally, the comparable Hog.
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Spinny, VF-17, The Jolly Rogers 8X
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Originally posted by Sundog:
Actually, the Germans had planes as good as or better then the P-51. But, fortunately, we (The Allies) bombed their Industry so they couldn't build them, bombed their oil fields so they couldn't fly them, and won the war through attrition (Our Industry out produced their's: Of course the ground fighting, tactics, and all else had alot to do with it. Not to mention the infighting within the Luftwaffe and much of the German Command Structure, etc, etc). The Luftwaffe was mostly overwhelmed by the numbers of allied aircraft in the air. Of course, pilot attrition also meant fewer experienced combat pilots to fight for the Axis.
As for the Uber Planes, much of it really does rely on tactics. The only planes whose performance I truly wonder about in this game are the bombers. However, I don't have any hard data on their entire flight envelope. It just seems to me, based on what I have read, that the B-17 has the performance of the B-29 in here. Would like to see some actual performance data for the buffs if anyone has it (thumbprints, carpet plots, etc.)
Thx.
P.S.-Having fun anyway.
I agree with you, except for the last part. Anyone ever check the top ceilings for both the B29 and the B17? You might be surprised at what you see. The highest ceiling I have seen for the B17 is in the 37K range, whereas the highest B29 ceiling is in the 31K range. I may have the wrong books, so please, correct me!
As far as level speed and bomb load are concerned, the B29 would have it all over the B17.
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If you think the current P-51D is too fast, climbs too well, blah blah blah - just think; the P-51B is lighter and has less drag... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Dolomite, concur with the B17 having alt advantage over B29, reason being the B-29 was also the heaviest production plane at its time because of increases in range, bomb load and defensive requirements. Gotta sacrifice altitude for quantity (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Like you said, it's speed balanced the need for altitude.
(Boeing lists the alt for B29 at 31,800 and the B17 at 35,600)
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Brian "Ripsnort" Nelson
"There is no reason anyone would
want a computer in their home."
Ken Olson, president, chairman and
founder of Digital Equipment Corp.,1977
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 01-14-2000).]
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Originally posted by juzz:
If you think the current P-51D is too fast, climbs too well, blah blah blah - just think; the P-51B is lighter and has less drag... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
...and is faster, and a better dogfighter...
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And below about 12k the p51-a is better then both the b and d.
I also agree with some of the above posts: ie: the 190D is more compariable to the P51D in over all ability then the A-8. With mw50 or GM-1(forget which) the 190A-8 could to 405mph at around 21k. less at lower alts.
see ya on line
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Pretty new to AH, but still getting a few
kills (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) Mainly fly the wuerger and except
for buffs, most of my kills are the "dreaded
P51" Mayhaps picking fights the "butcher bird" is suited for is the trick, but hey,
I'm just one of those destestable WB's "Dora Dweebs" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (being entirely unsuited for vertical fighting which keeps me out of 109's)
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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"
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Originally posted by Fishu:
I wonder whats the talking of Fw190s speed..
Even spitfire catches 190 and bunch of other planes...
Not to mention that real 190A8 did fly as fast as 405-408mph top speed... (never had that fast ride in it..)
Remember that Spit IX top speed is 405mph in the game (tested..)
Spit F IX should top out around 407. Some HF models as fast as 415 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Do your homework before you whine ;')
190 was fast with spit 5 around. 9 came out and gig was up (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/spit9.html (http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/spit9.html)
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(http://www.raf303.org/banner.gif)
Bartlomiej Rajewski
S/L fd-ski Sq. 303 (Polish) "Kosciuszko" RAF
www.raf303.org (http://www.raf303.org)
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The way I see it. There are no uber-planes. There are execellent pilot who get all from a certain airframe. Trust me I know, I run into them all the time.
I have beaten every airfame out there. Alot of them had the tactical advantage. A pilot who knows his/hers plane's weakness will not expose that weakness. Therefore the plane may seem uber.
Know the strengths of your airframe and gain the advantage. If not possible then extend and get out!! If running not possible then fight like a madman until your dead!! Do not be frustrated, but learn. Take that experience and learn.
Beating a plane with a tactical advantage is an incredible accomplishment. Especially when piloted by a good pilot. Try to get them to fight on your level.
Many pilots are real good but noone is perfect. They do make mistakes. If you can make them work for you they will faulter somewhere. Then be ready to pounce on them like a savage rabbit!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Important: Do not get frustrated or upset, because you'll beat yourself. Take your time and keep your SA up.
This advice dosen't work for me very well, but someone has to make it work!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Damn Ghostrider! This bogey is all over me!!
[This message has been edited by Swager (edited 01-14-2000).]
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One small problem fd-ski. AH Spitfire F.IX does 420mph...
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quote:
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Originally posted by juzz:
If you think the current P-51D is too fast, climbs too well, blah blah blah - just think; the P-51B is lighter and has less drag...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
...and is faster, and a better dogfighter...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
And it's painted GREEN; has dive brakes, tho these were usually wired shut (hmm maybe that was the apache version A37?? I forget now..) On the negative side; two less .50's, lower tankage capability, and a purely dismal rear view.
Hang
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PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8
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Swager! What a pleasure it is ta fly near you.. yah get me laughing so hard I get shot! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Seriously; you underestimate your abilities and capabilities. And; you fight like a tiger in the furball; use your head on the stalk and when yer buds need yah; yah toss the score book out and wade in guns blazing.
JG2 is lucky ta have yah.. yer a good stick (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Salute; sir!
Hang
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PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8
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Quote from Lephturn regarding the P51D in AH:
>>What is blowing me away flying the pony is how much I can pull and still be fast. Damn, I can't slow this thing down. I start working a guy from 15k, keel him, find another, keel him. At this point I'm thinking I'm low and slow.. but I realise I'm still at 10k! <<
Yep.. that Mustang was a wonderful e fighter... but it's gone now; and a poor imposter now stands parked on the tarmac; ready to dissapoint the expectant E pilot.
Climb rates are subtley less, and the biggest change this FM revision for the P51 seems to be that 'e-retention' (i.e. the laminar wing effect) is now gone, and she slows very quickly if AOA is even slightly increased. She also as had her acceleration reduced.. even in the dives. I have not had a chance to closely evaluate the flapped turn performance.. but on first impressions, it seems gone too.
Still a deadly machine.. but her marvelous sparkle and luster as an E fighter have gone on this rev. I am deeply saddened. I felt that this sim had for the first time anywhere; a damn good interpetation of what the plane could/should do.. (the previous FM to this one) ... and now it's just another ho-hum plane with a hair more top speed than it's adversaries; a poor turner; an average e fighter. In effect.. it's become the WB P51D. *yawn*
anybody wanna by some scrap aluminum??
Hang
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PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8
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And it's painted GREEN; has dive brakes, tho these were usually wired shut (hmm maybe that was the apache version A37?? I forget now..) On the negative side; two less .50's, lower tankage capability, and a purely dismal rear view.
Reduced fuel capacity won't matter in AH, two less guns not too much either, and the cockpit view can be improved by calling it a RAF Mustang Mk III, with green and grey camo (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
The dive brakes were only fitted on the A-36A "Apache". A sort of urban legend has sprung up about the A-36A's dive brakes. According to some stories, the dive brakes of the A-36A were next to useless and were deliberately wired shut at the manufacturers so that they could not be used. This story is totally incorrect. On the contrary, the dive brakes proved to be quite effective in combat, and the aircraft was so stable with the dive brakes extended that bombing while in a dive was particularly accurate. The origin of this legend seems to have been in the United States, at a time before the Invaders first went overseas. It seems that A-36A pilots were told by their officers in the USA that their dive brakes would be all but useless in combat and it would be best if they simply wired them shut. This turned out to be incorrect, and the dive brakes were used to great effect throughout the Sicilian campaign and the Italian invasion.
They were hydrualically actuated, I dunno what the maximum speed was for extending them, but I bet you could pull off some "interesting" ACM with them (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by juzz (edited 01-14-2000).]
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Hang, the F4U-1D should be one of the best pure E fighters in the game. In .46 it is. In .45 in comparison to the Pony it was .. well bad. Now the two are at least close, as they should be.
You know, I would laugh my bellybutton off if Pyro came on and said he didn't change anything. <G> It's hard to quantify these things.
I did however test this morning a few planes for E retention. Didn't do the 109 yet, but I will. I got them level at 10k with 50% gas at 200 mph. Then nose over in a 0G dive and maintain until you pass 5k, then start a 3G pull until going straight up and mark the highest point reached. The Pony managed 10,200 while the Hawg reached 10,100, pretty close. I'll keep testing and post all the results when I'm done. So far the Spit came in at 9,300 which seems low so I'll have to run the tests multiple times and be sure it's repeatable. I wish I'd done this before .45 so we could compare though.
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Lephturn
The Flying Pigs
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Juzz! Thank you... I knew I'd read somewhere in my distant past about dive brakes on the Apache.. and remember also hearing that it was considered a very competent AC compared to its early war contempories. Allison power??? No turbo?? Dammo wish I had my library..
Lephturn.. yup.. I don't disagree. The F4U seemed undermodeled in previous rev's when I flew it.. hopeless climb sticks out as my biggest surprise in it. My memory is rusty but I had it mentally pegged as one of the best sustained climb performers of the war. That sure aint how it felt when I flew it two revisions ago.
In any case.. I would have prefered seeing the F4U upgraded.. (even better: the -4 with those awsome cannon released)...and yes, even give the LW AC their just due with performance adjustments closer to the Mustangs rather than seeing the Mustang made a WB gelding. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Its franky impossible to judge from my seat in the "interested participants" section of the flight models debating society; (especially since I only have extensive expericence with the P51D/AH) and I'm very uncomfortable about my statements now.. I ain't got a leg to stand on and I know it.
But; the P51D/AH just don't have that "feeling" and I miss it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I'd rather see 100 overmodeled doras roaring down and have that eager pony to fly against them than this gelding they gave me yesterday against one Fiesler Storch.
"..thats my story; and I'm stickin to it!"
Thank you.. and I'll watch for those performance tables as they progress.
Salute!
Hang
Note: This message to be reposted under new thread " ..where'd my Pony go??"
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PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8