Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: lazs2 on June 24, 2004, 08:55:34 AM
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Looks like a deal was signed for a billion up front and tax on slot machines at indian bingo here that would bring in 500 million a year or more in tax money to the state.
Gotta love Arnie.
lazs
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about damn time
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Atta boy start off with a disparaging remark about Native American and then finish off by endorsing womenly behaviour with taxes and more govn't, you ran the gamut on this one.
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Ya WTF is this?? You guys are for this? Raising taxes is your all's worst comment on kerry but when Arnold does it to the native americans, its ok?? What a load of BS!!
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Good call, no one seemed to give 2 chits when they were placed on lant that weeds couldn't grow on, but as soon as they begin beating us at our own game, we flip flop on our own doctrines that both parties signed.
well god knows Hollywood produces some of the worst politicians that make excellent photo-op and sound byte professionals...:aok
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WTG Ahnuld.
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Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
Ya WTF is this?? You guys are for this? Raising taxes is your all's worst comment on kerry but when Arnold does it to the native americans, its ok?? What a load of BS!!
Raising taxes is one thing on us as a whole. But having the Indians "pay" taxes when they pay nothing now is a completely different thing.
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Originally posted by Red Tail 444
Good call, no one seemed to give 2 chits when they were placed on lant that weeds couldn't grow on, but as soon as they begin beating us at our own game, we flip flop on our own doctrines that both parties signed.
well god knows Hollywood produces some of the worst politicians that make excellent photo-op and sound byte professionals...:aok
If you wanna cry treaties, how about this... we put up a toll station on the entrance to "EVERY" reservation that does not pay taxes on their gambling income, and charge a $100.00 fee to enter. Hows that sound? Or better yet, we start forcing the NA's to pay for all their own social programs, infrastructure, and improvements... I bet they would rather they pay limited taxes on their gambling income.
Maybe they might reconsider the idea of having casinos to begin with... seeings that they are exploiting a loop hole in the law as well.
WTG Arnold.
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Well he could have just added tolls to all the state roads into and out of the reservations and let the Injuns keep their profits. Let the gamblers pay their own "sin tax" through the tolls.
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Originally posted by Bodhi
they are exploiting a loop hole in the law as well.
And what law is that?
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Yay!! A new billion dollar tax!! Yay!!
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I'm confused. Are you guys in favor of taxes now? Or were you against taxes before you were for taxes? Flip-floppers.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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I think they're in favor of taxes againt anyone who'se not a God fear'in, law abiding, gun toting, dilapitaed Chevy owning, red blooded, white American.
Why ___ __ itz only damn propUH dat doze damn (list of ethnic slurs) pay dere dooze and carry da weight dere.
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
I'm confused. Are you guys in favor of taxes now? Or were you against taxes before you were for taxes? Flip-floppers.
-- Todd/Leviathn
I can't speak for everyone else, but I'm FOR taxes on others. I'm AGAINST taxes on me.
-Sik
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
I'm confused. Are you guys in favor of taxes now? Or were you against taxes before you were for taxes? Flip-floppers.
-- Todd/Leviathn
Oh come now, Levi, youre educated. You can see the difference clearly.
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
Oh come now, Levi, youre educated. You can see the difference clearly.
Hmmm, the difference between a billion dollar tax, and a billion dollar tax, hmmm. Different docket number?
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Originally posted by Sixpence
Hmmm, the difference between a billion dollar tax, and a billion dollar tax, hmmm. Different docket number?
No, Mr. Six.
I glad that someone has finally decided to start taxing the people that soak up the benifits of living in this country without contributing to it.
Well overdue, IMO.
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Lazs, Bodhi, and Saurdaukar (im sure of at least 2 of them, I believe all 3) where all flaming strk a few weeks back in his thread about taxes being cut instead of raised for the weathly.. What hypocracy for them all to be here condoning this action against native americans..
The Indian reservations are nothing more than a micro economic group to America.. They have their wealthy that support their communities just like our society..
But here we have the same folk always screaming for less government, less taxes condoning Just the opposite actions against another group of peoples.. Sounds like lazs is supporting these 'Womanly' issues..
I here by claim these actions:
HYPOCRITE
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"the redskins"?
I think that the word is okay for describing some sort of sports team, but in this context it's out of fashion.
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hmm todd.. you really can't see the difference from one group that is allready being taxed and one that never was?
even at that rate they are paying like a thousandth of what other businesses are paying in tax on profit.
When they start to pay anything like what other casinos in nevada say are paying in taxes then we can talk about giving em a break.
I am against taxes period. Take away everyone elses tax burden and you can then remove the indians.
They were more than willing to pay BTW.
lazs
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
No, Mr. Six.
I glad that someone has finally decided to start taxing the people that soak up the benifits of living in this country without contributing to it.
Well overdue, IMO.
Yeah, kinda like companies who base themselves offshore to avoid taxes.
But there is a strange irony here. It was their country, you make it sound like they are not the natives they are, and the irony is the ones who were here first are the ones who live tax free when the ones who conquered the country championed tax free and now are putting a billion dollar tax on them. Makes you kinda wonder who the true American is here, the indian, or the guy who wasn't even born here putting a billion dollar tax on them.
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
WTG Ahnuld.
lol it sound almost like /dev/null
:D
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sandie... I am not very fashionable I am told.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
sandie... I am not very fashionable I am told.
lazs
Have to be careful, someone might confuse your lack of fashion for racism. ;)
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The point I'm making is that those who oppose taxes should oppose them regardless. It's not about contributing to society. After all, how many Indians do those casinos employ? At least as many as comparably successful casinos outside the reservation I'd venture.
Does raising their taxes mean that the taxes on everyone else go down? That seems like a nice compromise, particularly if Indian communities are willing to pay the taxes. However, I'm guessing that tax cuts on the rest of Californians don't complement a massive new tax on Indian casinos.
So why the high-fiving? Shouldn't people who oppose taxes find realistic ways to cut government spending so that everyone can enjoy a relatively tax free existence? It's an honest question. I think Schwarzenegger's solution is an excellent one to a nasty budget crunch, but it doesn't seem to really fit into a conservative view of minimalist government. I almost get the sense that some of the feelings here border on the punitive... that Indian casinos deserve the tax for, somehow, avoiding having to pay taxes like the rest of us for so long.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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yes... that is quite possible... fortunately... I really don't care if they do.
lazs
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todd.. here in California we are in a budget crunch by our late great davis the gray.
I agree that no one should pay taxes but see no reason why some should be able to be exempt... they may employ people but so does every other bussiness... Wall Mart employs more... Each Wall Mart pays maybe a million a year just in taxes that go back to the cities they are in...
Indian casinos increase the burden on the community in infrastructure but are exempt from the law.
Would yu be in favor of the next Wall Mart that opened in your town to be tax exempt?
When all are exempt then I will see your point.. till then... equal treatment under the law.
lazs
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Taxes Suck
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
The point I'm making is that those who oppose taxes should oppose them regardless. It's not about contributing to society. After all, how many Indians do those casinos employ? At least as many as comparably successful casinos outside the reservation I'd venture.
Does raising their taxes mean that the taxes on everyone else go down? That seems like a nice compromise, particularly if Indian communities are willing to pay the taxes. However, I'm guessing that tax cuts on the rest of Californians don't complement a massive new tax on Indian casinos.
So why the high-fiving? Shouldn't people who oppose taxes find realistic ways to cut government spending so that everyone can enjoy a relatively tax free existence? It's an honest question. I think Schwarzenegger's solution is an excellent one to a nasty budget crunch, but it doesn't seem to really fit into a conservative view of minimalist government. I almost get the sense that some of the feelings here border on the punitive... that Indian casinos deserve the tax for, somehow, avoiding having to pay taxes like the rest of us for so long.
-- Todd/Leviathn
Point taken, although its more a matter of opinion so there isnt much use in arguing it.
On the flip side, your last paragraph has some validty I will agree with. It might be wise to consider the possibility that those of us in favor of this action might be happy because it spits in the face of the neuvo-PC movement.
Its a return to a logical way of doing things, quite frankly. Why shouldnt they pay taxes? Because "we" showed up 500 years ago with the grand idea to "take their country?" Thats kind of silly, if you ask me.
I suppose what Im trying to say is pretty much what you tried to say; that its not so much that we're "flip flopping" on taxes, we're simply pleased with the effort to even out the burden some. Its a breath of fresh air in this "screw the majority at all costs" society we seem to have created.
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Originally posted by Sixpence
Yeah, kinda like companies who base themselves offshore to avoid taxes.
But there is a strange irony here. It was their country, you make it sound like they are not the natives they are, and the irony is the ones who were here first are the ones who live tax free when the ones who conquered the country championed tax free and now are putting a billion dollar tax on them. Makes you kinda wonder who the true American is here, the indian, or the guy who wasn't even born here putting a billion dollar tax on them.
See above.
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Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
Lazs, Bodhi, and Saurdaukar (im sure of at least 2 of them, I believe all 3) where all flaming strk a few weeks back in his thread about taxes being cut instead of raised for the weathly.. What hypocracy for them all to be here condoning this action against native americans..
The Indian reservations are nothing more than a micro economic group to America.. They have their wealthy that support their communities just like our society..
But here we have the same folk always screaming for less government, less taxes condoning Just the opposite actions against another group of peoples.. Sounds like lazs is supporting these 'Womanly' issues..
I here by claim these actions:
HYPOCRITE
I cant speak for the other two, but Im certain the posts you are refering to will support what Im saying here. Im not "against taxes" Im against uneven taxes. A flat tax would be ideal, IMO.
For the wealthy (of which I am NOT a member, just so we're clear) to be forced to pay an obscenely large percentage compared to the rest of the country isnt right.
For this reason, Im glad Arnold will be going ahead with this tax. It evens things out somewhat - spreads the burden.
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one more time... all bussines is good for the country.. all bussines plays by the same tax code.... except the indians.
get everyone playing by the same tax code and then start lowering the entire tax code.
they are not part of the U.S.? fine... if that is the case then to prevent them form burdening the infrastructure (roads etc.) then simply make it illegal for U.S. citizens to step onto indian soil.
either they want to be part of the community or they don't.... since it was a joint agreement... it would appear that they are of the latter persuassion.
but maybe I am just a biggot and don't understand why one race should be treated differently than another.
lazs
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
Its a return to a logical way of doing things, quite frankly. Why shouldnt they pay taxes? Because "we" showed up 500 years ago with the grand idea to "take their country?" Thats kind of silly, if you ask me.
Lol, of course it's silly to you, you're not the indian! If you are a 60 year old indian who has been living on a reservation all his life, your opinion might differ. But in the end, for the record, you supported a billion dollar tax, and I did not.
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Originally posted by Sixpence
Yeah, kinda like companies who base themselves offshore to avoid taxes.
But there is a strange irony here. It was their country, you make it sound like they are not the natives they are, and the irony is the ones who were here first are the ones who live tax free when the ones who conquered the country championed tax free and now are putting a billion dollar tax on them. Makes you kinda wonder who the true American is here, the indian, or the guy who wasn't even born here putting a billion dollar tax on them.
They lost the Indian Wars. I think if President Wilson had not confered, by act of Congress, citizenship for their contribution to WWI they would be better off.
Personally, I think Congress should abrogate all Indian treaties, divide the lands amongst the current tribal members, and let free enterprise take its course. With the exception of the 5 Civilized Tribes, the Indian Tribes did not qualify for Nation recognition.
I see the clouds gathering! Yes, Congress can do this. It is legal.
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Good for Arnuld. Sucks to be white wearing flipflops. More money for hispanics to have babie's in Cali.
More TAXES FOR KING ARNLOLD OF BELGIUM cali.
Lazs is an old ex drug hippie biker guy.LOL absinthe kicking in.
Ex con biker hippies are old.
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Originally posted by Sixpence
Lol, of course it's silly to you, you're not the indian! If you are a 60 year old indian who has been living on a reservation all his life, your opinion might differ. But in the end, for the record, you supported a billion dollar tax, and I did not.
I support a billion dollar tax on people that never paid taxes before so that the residents of California who already pay outrageous taxes, might not have to pay more.
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
I support a billion dollar tax on people that never paid taxes before so that the residents of California who already pay outrageous taxes, might not have to pay more.
Uh huh. Once you start looking for things to tax, it snowballs.
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"Them dang Injuns been livin life too easy for too long. Do they think they are speshal or sumthun? Ain't like we wuz Nazi's an stole their land and tried to wipe them out er nuthin."
This rant has been brought to you by NeoCon!
NeoCon, making double standards standard all across America!
(http://www.gilbertv.com/coppermine/albums/06012004/governator.jpg)
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
I'm confused. Are you guys in favor of taxes now? Or were you against taxes before you were for taxes? Flip-floppers.
-- Todd/Leviathn
the casino's are the one paying the taxes, and unless if you gamble not the people of CA;)
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I don't see how people are freaking out about this. Voluntary taxes are not a big deal on "vices". Taxes on gambling, smoking, alcohol, and other things that aren't necesarry (housing, clothes, gas) are great revenue builders with no ill effects on anyone except those that choose to participate.
I realize this is more about taxing the Indians.. but in all reality they are taxing the Casino.. which is a business and should be succeptable to any and all corporate taxes. Giving a tax break and entitlement programs to the Indians for something that happened 50 generations back seems a little rediculous to me.. I have enough Indian blood to get a CDIB but I don't feel I earned anything special by having a great great grandfather that was full blood Apache.
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Originally posted by Munkii
Giving a tax break and entitlement programs to the Indians for something that happened 50 generations back seems a little rediculous to me.. I have enough Indian blood to get a CDIB but I don't feel I earned anything special by having a great great grandfather that was full blood Apache.
1/8 Pima here, and I agree with your view... but Wounded Knee was only 5 or 6 generations ago and you and I could have met someone alive at the time.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
1/8 Pima here, and I agree with your view... but Wounded Knee was only 5 or 6 generations ago and you and I could have met someone alive at the time.
Sarcasm and exaggeration.. ;) I actually don't mind some of the entitlement programs, and infact think they help a lot where some of the Indian populations are rather poor. The tuition breaks are a god-send a lot of the time.. if I hadn't qualified for grants I had considered trying to trace my family back through the rolls trying to get a card and the tuition.
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I think everyone is against taxes in general, but I think the issue here, and maybe the cheers for Arnold stem from the idea that if there must be taxes, everyone should share in paying them equally.
dago
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I had considered making a post about this subject several months ago, but thought better of it. Didn't want to get any Indians upset with me. Also don't know much about it. I know this thread is about slot machines in bingo halls. You start off with slot machines and bingo, and you eventually end up with twentyone (blackjack), poker, craps, Keno, Pharoh, Bacarrat, roulette, etc, etc, etc...
In my opinion, bringing casinos in is not in the best interests of a community. There's a lot of potential for corruption, meaning the money supposedly earmarked for community improvements, is channeled somewhere else. If the money was strictly regulated and accounted for, that would be different. Then it might do some good, aside from the deleterous effects of gambling and the problems it brings. Do Indian casinos have a gambling commission? I don't know.
I have never visited a reservation, but have been left under the impression they are in bad shape. If so, why? Seems like with all that money, reservations should be thriving communities.
I realize operating a casino is expensive, and have heard the Indian casinos are owned by Asian investors. Most of the money goes there? It should be taxed, or even better, completely frozen. Some of that money possibly could be funding terrorists, for all we know. If all of it was going to the American Indians, as it should be, I have no problem with that at all.
About taxation of casinos on reservations...everyone should pay their fair share of taxes. Taxes are necessary if you live here. There was a time when the Native Americans needed a break. They were a defeated nation in war, and needed to be helped out. If the idea of granting the privilege of having something like casinos was meant to help the Indians, then why is it not working?
Les
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Originally posted by Sandman
"the redskins"?
I think that the word is okay for describing some sort of sports team, but in this context it's out of fashion.
That's true Sandman. Not all Indians were redskins. Some were fairly darkskinned, and others like the Cherokees had offshoots of Scottish ancestry. They were blue eyed blonds, and white as you and me.:D
Les
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This is too funny. In some way, shape or form, that tax is going to be passed on to the patron. So it is the people who are being taxed. Something about the forest through the trees?
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Originally posted by Sixpence
This is too funny. In some way, shape or form, that tax is going to be passed on to the patron. So it is the people who are being taxed. Something about the forest through the trees?
Yes.. but it is a 500 million tax that is passed on to people that choose to go to the casino.. income tax isn't really a choice. I'm not a right winger, but I still fail to see why everyone is freaking out about this tax.
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WTF you wanna cry fowl when a republican governer does it because it is NEEDED and say huuurrraaahhh when a presidential canidate calls for it when it is not?
LOOK AT THE HEADLINES ITS A COMPROMISE!
Both DEM and REPUB LOVE this guy in california....he's a strait shooter and he's not thinking about a party but for California!
YES A REPUBLICAN THAT CARES!
I know your liberal brains wrapped in those pink panties are saying "does not compute" but step away from the hooka and see progress in action!
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Originally posted by Munkii
Yes.. but it is a 500 million tax that is passed on to people that choose to go to the casino.. income tax isn't really a choice. I'm not a right winger, but I still fail to see why everyone is freaking out about this tax.
Ahhh, so what this boils down to is a "sin" tax. And why did those silly Patriots dump that tea, it was only a freakin tax.
"YES A REPUBLICAN THAT CARES! "
Lol, about finding someone to lay a billion dollar tax on? Geeez
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So who in this thread supports this tax and who doesnt?
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I thought the exact same thing after the first few posts, Munkii.
In Wisconsin we have tons of native american casinos. They're all over the place, and they've got their own taxes. The casinos generate a decent amount of jobs and allow for some budget relief (of which the budget is currently shrecked, but thats beside the point). Like Munkii said, where is the casino's income coming from? I wouldn't necessarily categorize it as a 'sin tax' though.
I've always considered the lottery a tax on stupidity. But... there are many who lack the choice to opt out of stupidity in the first place ;)
Grun, I support anti-stupidity. :)
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Originally posted by Leslie
That's true Sandman. Not all Indians were redskins. Some were fairly darkskinned, and others like the Cherokees had offshoots of Scottish ancestry. They were blue eyed blonds, and white as you and me.:D
Les
The term "Redskin" did not originate from the colour of their complexion but rather the berry juice they used to colour it with.
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I am against uneven application of taxes. All people should play by the same rules when it comes to taxes. The indians should also pay state income tax.
We should all at that point be given a tax break.
My point is that the indians shouldn't be exemted from the benifiets or pain of taxes... I simply want everyone treated equally... If the indians can find some off shore tax shelter once they are paying just like everyone else then.... more power to em.
let em work within the code... let em pay for tax lawyers and accountants just like everyone else.
Like Arnie..I am all about equality... unlike our liberal friends.
regular... it is unwise to lump all people of an age group together... for instance.. it would be easy to assume that all young people were morons if we used your post as an example.
lazs
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Lazs is being an ass.
Les:D
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yes... any attempt at real equality is met with disdain or seen as a threat by those who have something to gain by inequality.
but what about equality don't you like les?
I know some here feel that without their help whole groups of people are too stupid to survive but what is your reason?
lazs
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Same reason as theirs Lazs. We're all stupid when you think about it.
Les
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so you believe that whole groups of people are too stupid to survive withou your handouts? Would you say that it is because some races are inferior to others?
lazs
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Grunherz, I'm in favor of the tax since it's a step toward some sort of fiscal responsibility in California. The only way they're going to bring the budget deficit under control is to find new tax revenue streams and to cut existing discretionary and entitlement spending.
I don't view it as an equality or inequality issue. Frankly, if California wasn't desperate for more tax revenue, it probably wouldn't have considered levying the tax. In addition, equality to me indicates a zero-sum game; if you raise taxes by $500 million on Indian casinos when they've never paid them before, you lower taxes by $500 million on everyone else. That's a move toward some sort of parity in taxation after years of letting Indian casinos slide.
As it is, I view taxation of Indian casinos as a pragmatic, common sense policy meant to increase tax revenue. The fact that it's seen as somehow punitive or equalizing is beside the point IMO.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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No, but I did have a weird dream about you couple nights ago. It was cool and involved police,unpaid bills, and escaping to the North.:D
Les
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Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
Lazs, Bodhi, and Saurdaukar (im sure of at least 2 of them, I believe all 3) where all flaming strk a few weeks back in his thread about taxes being cut instead of raised for the weathly.. What hypocracy for them all to be here condoning this action against native americans..
The Indian reservations are nothing more than a micro economic group to America.. They have their wealthy that support their communities just like our society..
But here we have the same folk always screaming for less government, less taxes condoning Just the opposite actions against another group of peoples.. Sounds like lazs is supporting these 'Womanly' issues..
I here by claim these actions:
HYPOCRITE
Have not been here for almost 3 weeks.
Hel dilrod, I never said that taxes were bad, I oppose certain types of taxes, and believe in others. For example, I am for a flat tax, and against a hike in the gas tax. I am for taxiong the Indians casinos, and have been long before the governator decided to implement the idea. I hate the fact that people getting a free ride seem to skirt around paying taxes. Now you may want to cry and say this is hurting the Indians.>> thats SO bogus, the only person this will "hurt" are the people who come in to gamble, as the slots get a bit tighter, and the "miscellaneous expenses" go up a bit. SO in the end, the only ones paying the tax will be the gamblers.
Want another touchy subject on taxes? How about Puerto Rico starts paying federal taxes. Yeah, thye pay dick right now, and I am a bit tired of that. It would make far more sense to have a nation wide vote to decide one of two things. Statehood, or Independence. My vote is Independence, and cut the teat.
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I am told that many people have dreams about me.
todd... not sure what you are trying to say. I look at it as a step towards equality tho. gives everyone the same chances and perspective. If you pay no taxes your view of taxes and their benifiet/detrement will be distorted. If you are excluded from one part of the community why is is such a large step to exclude you from others?
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
todd... not sure what you are trying to say. I look at it as a step towards equality tho. gives everyone the same chances and perspective.
What I mean is that this move likely wasn't made to equalize the tax burden in California. It was probably made because the legislature and the governor could not realistically raise taxes any more on everyone else without seriously and negatively impacting the state economy. Taxing Indian casinos and raising taxes on other vices were probably the last, best alternatives.
Even then, that's hardly enough to make a major dent in California's budget deficit. From what I've read, the yearly budget deficit runs anywhere between 20 and 30 billion dollars and equates to roughly 40% of California's GSP. That's just insane. There's no way California can simply tax its way out of that kind of hole, though finding new tax revenue streams is a good start. California is going to have to make some serious and deep cuts in its entitlement spending before its bond rating plummets to the point where it has no choice but to cut those programs.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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What Todd is saying if the indians have not been paying taxes, then the tax on them should be a tax reduction for everyone else. But the guvahnator needs tax revenue, so the people didn't get that cut. So, in reality, the people got their taxes raised, because if the tax were to spread taxes out evenly, everyone else should have got a tax cut. So in a way, you are right, there is some equality here, everyone got their taxes raised.
In the end, I think they will pass it on to the consumer, like any other business. So not only did the people not get the tax cut they should have got, they will pay more out of pocket at the casino.
A tax is never good.
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the consumer? the consumer is the guy who gambles. You can easily avoid any impact on yourself by not gambling. If the indians don't get taxed then card houses and such shouldn't be taxed on their income.
it is really simple. everyone should play by the same rules. I don't care if it increases or decreases the tax base or what it does... if taxes on vice are bad then get rid of all of em.. if they are ok for some then they are ok for all. if anyone can figure out a way to avoid em within the tax code then more power to em but...
simply being exempt is wrong if you are not a non profit organization..
lazs