Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Urchin on June 24, 2004, 02:06:21 PM
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I don't know if this would be considered "proprietatry information", but I am curious as to what sort of data you all have for armor penetration for various rounds.
I ask because the Panzer IV still has the disturbing habit of blowing up like a firecracker when it is strafed by .50 caliber or Hispano aircraft, yet it seems virtually immune to the Mg-151 and whatever cannons the La-7 has on it. I know in AH1 the Niki could also pop panzers like a champ, but I haven't really been strafed by any in AH2 yet.
The only data I've seen on the topic was posted by Tony Williams about two years ago in this thread (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45169&highlight=Hispano+armor+penetration) . In the same thread, I posted data on the Panzer IV's armor at various locations.
For ease of reading, I'll copy & paste both to here.
"It goes like this : Position: Armor Thickness/Armor Angle
Front Turret: 50/11
Front Upper Hull: 50 or 50+30/10
Front Lower Hull: 50 or 50+30/12
Side Turret: 30/26
Side Upper Hull: 30/0
Side Lower Hull: 30/0
Rear Turret: 30/10
Rear Upper Hull: 20/12
Rear Lower Hull: 20/9
Turret Top / Bottom: 10/83
Upper Hull Top / Bottom: 12/85
Lower Hull Top / Bottom: 10/90
Gun Mantlet: 50/0
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Mr Williams-
"Now that I'm back with my sources, I'll add a bit more to the AP performance figures.
Realistically, an attack on the roof or decking of a tank is not going to be made at better than 60 degrees, with 30 degrees being more likely. Furthermore, it's not going to be at very short range. So let's take 300m range and strikes at 60-30 degrees as typical.
As I posted before, the .50" M2 AP could penetrate between 13mm and 5mm in these circumstances (with the smaller figure being more likely).
The MG 131 AP could similarly manage between 7mm and 3mm
The MG 151 15mm AP (non-Hartkern) from 19mm to 12mm
The MG 151 15mm Hartkern 24mm to 12mm
The MG 151 20mm AP between 12mm and 8mm
The 20mm MG-FF AP between 9mm and 6mm
Given proper AP rounds, the Hispano would be significantly better, but AFAIK the US M75 AP shot wasn't used in Europe. The RAF loaded only HEI and SAPI according to my info, and the SAPI was about the same as the .50 M8 in AP performance.
The .50 AP M2 and API M8 were both in widespread use (from 1944 onwards, I think the M8 almost replaced other types completely). The 20mm MG 151 AP was also in common use, but only as a small percentage of the typical ammo belt loading; perhaps one in five, or two in five at the most.
"
So we have what looks like at 300 yards and a 60 degree dive,
the .50 and Hispano could penetrate around 13mm of armor. The MG-151 could penetrate 12mm. All 3 should be able to penetrate the top decking of a Panzer IV in a 60 degree dive from 300 yards.
In a 30 degree dive from 300 yards, the .50 and Hispano could penetrate around 5mm of armor, and the Mg-151 could penetrate around 8mm of armor. None of the three should be able to penetrate the top decking of a Panzer IV in a 30 degree dive from 300 yards.
In practice (in AH), the Mg-151 does not penetrate at all. The .50 and Hispano not only penetrate but actually destroy tanks with relative ease, and from angles of significantly less than 60 degrees and distances greater than 300 yards.
Do you have some data showing much more potent armor penetration for the .50 and Hispano, and less armor penetration for the Mg151?
To be honest, if the Mg-151 was bumped up on the 190F-8 so it could strafe tanks and destroy them too, I wouldn't have such an issue with this. Likewise, if the .50 and Hispano were toned down to an extent where the only strafing attacks with any likelyhood of destroying the tank were steep dives and close ranges, I would be happy even if the 190F-8 could never strafe tanks.
If you'd like to see film of the ease with which a Panzer IV can be strafed to death by a .50 or Hispano equipped plane, I have them. Need a place to post them, or I can email them to you.
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Originally posted by Urchin
I ask because the Panzer IV still has the disturbing habit of blowing up like a firecracker when it is strafed by .50 caliber or Hispano aircraft, yet it seems virtually immune to the Mg-151 and whatever cannons the La-7 has on it. I know in AH1 the Niki could also pop panzers like a champ, but I haven't really been strafed by any in AH2 yet.
I disagree, Ive been driving the Panzer IV a lot lately, and the only thing I fear is Bombs.
I dont think I've been killed by strafing more than few times since the release of AH2.
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Urchin: You realy like talking to yourself?
HiTech
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Not particularly, but I suppose since you've been ignoring me on this for 2 years, so whats another week or so?
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This is not something I can quickly answer and your timing isn't good right now. Bump me back on it next week if you haven't heard back.
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Will do Pyro, thanks very much.
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cant speak about AHII, because i havent tried it yet. But in AHI i had no problem popping panzers turrets with a few rounds of 50cal from FM2.
I even showed LWhine, sorry, LTown repeatedly how its done (him in panzer) in the combat theatre after he accused me of cheating.
Explode them? its not that easy, but then - i prefer to pop their turret, neuter them, and laugh at them as they drive round in circles making smoke rings.
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have to pop in on this one.
as i have stated many a time i try (though sometimes unsucessfully) to stay away from the more contriversial topics on this BBS.
in the 2.5 years here i have seen this topic come up too many times to count, and personally i agree with the points made.
i have done no research into this, only hearsay from multiple sources (some here some in real life).
this particular thread mekes me laugh though. i have to say watching the reactions of the staff of HTC every time this is brought up, they have got to be sick of it LOL. i can see where the constant badgering would be annoying, and the whole "luftwhiner" phrase came from.
i also have to admire the persistance, and research by the community into this topic. Urchin, being a leader so to say, but there have been many others. you all ever give up and never let down. it is actually admirable.
yes urchin gave a little jibe in this thread about "ignoring" but it wasn't hurtful IMHO, and the HTC staff responded in kind. no slam/flame fest just casual discussion.
to be honest that's all i have seen between the HTC staff and the community. all respect, and generaly no "personal attacks"
thats not to say the community itself hasn't gotten rather riled on the topic, but between the major players, and the HTC staff all has been civil. it's like some weird hatfield/mccoy rivalry that is not all backwoodsy, it's more like old english civility. fun to watch, with no real threat of anything bad. the sound of the southerner who homer simpson challenges to a "duel" rings through my head LOL
oh well thats enough rambling...
<<<>>> all and i hope it gets worked out. personally i would like to submit myself as a community member that sides with urchin on the topic at hand.
here's to HTC being the most communicative, and present owners of a product! if they were to stop responding to topics like this, i would be worried. as of so far, they seem the most commited people i have ever seen to their jobs. <> gentelman and ladies!
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Originally posted by hitech
Urchin: You realy like talking to yourself?
HiTech
LMFAO!
HT's getting snappy!
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Last night (this morning around 2am actually) there was a GV attack and after using bombs, Mossies, rockets, Typhoons, the whole shebang, I found it near impossible to kill tanks.
I'm not an excellent pilot, but I'm not horrible either, sometimes I'd just hold down the trigger once I got the bead and pound them with the cannons.
To me, it's harder to kill gvs in AH2 now.
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"To me, it's harder to kill gvs in AH2 now"
My observation is it is just as easy as before, except spoting them is spotty, but easly overcome, by low leval flights over the trees.
I killed just as efficiently using just the Huricane MK IIC, clean with just cannons..no bombs... Panzers, just like I did hundreds of times IN AH1 the other day in the MA.
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Originally posted by RTSigma
To me, it's harder to kill gvs in AH2 now.
i wil totally agree.
being in an LW squad i ahve to admit to the community, thet we ahve an open planeset for the next few weeks to get more familiar with the new FM's of all the planes.
so i took a hurri IID with the 40mm up to kill me some GV's
i was sooo determined to get a kill i must have augered 20 of them dumb planes LOL. i put 6 40mm rounds into a panzer from 400 yards and less ZERO damage. i put 4 40mm rounds into an M16 from the same range (getting killed in the process) ZERO damage (squad mate was above me and watched, later killing the offending m16 with a 1000lb bomb from a typh).
yes i agree with urchin that there are things to look into with the ballistics of the game in whole.
yes i agree this is a FLIGHT sim LOL
what needs to be changed will be changed i truly believe. HTC staff is the best there is, and they will do what they think is appropiate (they probably spend entire days in meetings with eachother discussing research on this stuff). i am not going to whine for a change, meerly point out what i have observed, and hope the understanding is i know nothign about this stuff, only hearsay
<>
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The Huri IID always sucked but for killing GV's imo, so no big suprise their. My observeation has been again that the anti GV aspect in terms of effect, not spoting, is basicaly the same in AH2 as it was In AH1, though I did kill a Tiger with 5 rockets from, a P38 the other night, which suprised the heck out of me, thought that was prety much imposable to do in AH1, not shure if it was a fluke or what.
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I am going to put my 2 cents worth in on this as well. The data provided at top is in error:
Panzerkampfwagen IV Ausf H
Armor Detail Front Side Rear Top/Bottom
Hull 80mm@76* 30mm@90* 20mm@82* 10mm@0*
Superstrut. 80mm@80* 30mm@90* 20mm@79* 12mm@0-5
Turret 50mm@80* 30mm@64* 30mm@75* 15mm@0-7
Mantlet 50mm@60-90
Ref: http://www.onwar.com/tanks/germany/tfpz4h.htm
Now there are penetration tables that will show armor thicknesses at different angels. Your basic strafe attack will not hit the armor at 90 degrees so the listed thicknesses will be greater. Add into that the deflection aspect of a strafe on a tank and you will see why strafe attacks against armor targets were generally unsuccessful. Even bomb drops were not that successful other than to tip the tanks over. There was a link to an article that discussed this issue, however I am unable to find it now.
I am sure someone knows where that article is and will post a link to it.
LTARsqrl
:aok
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Originally posted by Furball
cant speak about AHII, because i havent tried it yet. But in AHI i had no problem popping panzers turrets with a few rounds of 50cal from FM2.
I even showed LWhine, sorry, LTown repeatedly how its done (him in panzer) in the combat theatre after he accused me of cheating.
Explode them? its not that easy, but then - i prefer to pop their turret, neuter them, and laugh at them as they drive round in circles making smoke rings.
Did you just call LTOWN a whiner?!
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Originally posted by Tails4
Did you just call LTOWN a whiner?!
looking at the dates of the postings, the word "just" seems a bit unjustified to me... :rolleyes:
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Tails4 - since this is your first post ever on this forum, be sure to read the rules listed at the top of every forum.
As you can see - rule 13 would apply here.