Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Azrael on October 17, 1999, 07:48:00 AM
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The AH gunner system allows either the pilot or his gunner to control multiple positions simultaneously. As you man a particular position and point your weapon, all other weapons that share that field of fire will automatically slew to that direction. You then have the option to fire only the weapon you are manning or all weapons that are pointed at your target. For example, if you're in the nose of a B-17G and you have a target at 1 o'clock low and were to fire all available weapons, the target would receive fire from the ball turret, the chin turret, and the right cheek gun.
How is the convergence factor coming into play? The gun stations on buffs are far more separated than the guns on fighter wings - do all stations fire at a parallel line to the 'primary' gun, do they magically know the enemy distance and deflect their shooting, or has this to be set up by the buff pilot / gunner?
Az
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Azrael
XO 487th BG (Heavy) (http://www.487th.de)
'The Gentlemen from Hell'
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(http://www.users.bigpond.com/afinlayson/images/smallphoenix.jpg)
Convergence shouldn't be a factor with buff guns.. after all, how far apart were the barrels on a ball turret, 2 feet?
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C.O. Phoenix Squadron
www.users.bigpond.com/afinlayson/index.htm
'feel the heat .......'
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I like the idea of controlling more than one gun at a time,I put forth the same concept a few months back on AGW, but EZMury hammered me with a good question on our squad board. What happens when you have multiple bogeys attacking your A/C simultaneously? By the time you kill one of them more than likely the other will waste you-not a good thing. Also if your at your drop point your going to be defenseless while at the Norden-again not a good thing for the Buff drivers. I flew a B-17 for the first time last night and was 1 pass killed by a P-51 in a head on.Durability is suspect as well,if you dont agree with that check out this link.
http://www.ixpres.com/ag1caf/B-17/ (http://www.ixpres.com/ag1caf/B-17/)
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More importantly, what happens when you are attacked by 2 planes? Hurry up and kill one so you can shoot at the other?
This idea probably sounded good under the influence of Budwieser, but I don't tink it will work very well in action.
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Jekyll: I'm not talking about the guns from the single station your are manning but about the guns from the other stations that can also track the enemy. At a total plane lenght of about 68 feet the tail gun and the upper turret have about 50 feet separation. Thats where the convergence joins the game (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Weazel, Gadfly: Well, it's a reason to get a human gunner and to fly in formation - I would at least give it a try.
Az
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Azrael
XO 487th BG (Heavy) (http://www.487th.de)
'The Gentlemen from Hell'
[This message has been edited by azrael (edited 10-17-1999).]
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Az- We're using a fixed convergence at the moement.
Weaz- I commented on the durability in the news section.
No doubt, there are some downsides to this system. What I am fairly convinced of is that the good outweighs the bad. I'd recommend reserving judgement until you've had a chance to try it out. Even the things that are cited as bad are not necessarily that bad. The fact that a coordinated attack against a bomber is going to be more effective is good. If fighters adopt those tactics, buffs can adopt formation tactics which is also good. The main thing it does is put a real live human in control of a withering amount of firepower. That should make you think twice about your tactics before you engage a buff.
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
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Fixed convergence at the moment? Sounds good - sounds like this could be subject to change (how about letting the gunner/pilot decide which convergence to use preflight or maybe even inflight - gives them gunners something to do (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif))
Knowing both models from the other sims I can say that I neither like both versions although I'm a dedicated buff pilot in brand W. Maybe this system here will lead to the formation of squads w/ dedicated gunners, I was a dedicated gunner in brand A's open betas a a long time ago.
One question at last: How about letting the gunners join the action inflight - climbing 30 minutes to the target is a dull job if there's nothing to do... maybe a report of 3 buffs on final w/ some cons below would attract some people.
Az
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Azrael
XO 487th BG (Heavy) (http://www.487th.de)
'The Gentlemen from Hell'
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Don`t take me wrong on this Pyro,I HATED the otto in Warbirds and am all for manning our own guns,I do think the multiple gun control is about the best thing since sliced bread,I was just throwing out some what ifs raised by a comrade.
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May I just say something here.
I like it.
Hans.
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Hey, Frans....Yo tink dees guys are gut enouff to shooot us down? Ya! Dats right. Vie aw 'ere to shoot....you down!
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HERE HERE !!
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Aye, looks promising. In-flight variable convergence would make buff gunnery an art form (except for defending from dead-six attacks, which would be more like connect-the-dots).
As anyone who's driven buffs for brand W knows, in an Arena setting, most attacks are by single fighters. When a group attacks a buff, it usually comes from one direction, and Otto locks onto one A/C with all his guns anyway.
As for head-down over targets, well, no buff hunter would be so foolish as to chase his quarry into the ack beds and expose his tiny fighter to the withering fire of the 88mm ack guns far below. Oh wait, that's brand RL. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
We can all scream for in-flight addition of gunners. I'd love to hear a gameplay argument why it shouldn't happen. Perhaps they're as rare as technical arguments why it's easy to do. Perhaps not.
Dinger
Proud author of another meaningless post.
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Like the way your thinking. But I have a problem if a new system can only target one plane at a time and everyone knows to hit the "Queen of the Skies" when the pilot is sighting. An otto system works but it turns the plane into fabulous offensive weapon rather than a tactical bomber. The only real answer is to offer more realism and that can be done only with real gunners. I SUGGEST there may be a route to explore. Offer free play time to gunners. NO FEE, ride in the "Queen of the Skies" and shoot some bogies. If the gunner gets the air sim bug then sign on and pay for your plane. But then there are problems there too.
RASTER.
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First off I like gunning.
I hate the slow climb while I watch the clouds though.
Pyro, how hard would it be for a gunner to join in flight?
This would do a couple of things.
Allow the buff pilot to call for gunners. Six guys in the air say, I will! However they are 5 - 10 min away from landing. The buff pilot can TO and start grabing. When one of these guys land, they can sign up.
the other thing this does, is when a gunner discos. Nothing would be worse than grabing with your gunner, hitting the IP and finding out the gunner discoed! At least you would have the oportunity to call for a new gunner instead of being stuck out there all alone at your most vulnerable time.
It will also be easier to get gunners if they don't have to ride through that long slow climb.
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"Just Plane Nuts"
Gazoo
http://plaza.v-wave.com/SolarStorm/index.htm (http://plaza.v-wave.com/SolarStorm/index.htm)
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Hm.
I like that climb. It's suspense for me.
I'm not so hot on the teleporting gunners thing though. If you go up alone, you oughta stay that way. If you go up with a gunner, and he dies, you're alone. If he discos on ya, then you oughta be able to get a new one.
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otto just might have a use. Dinnae how feasible it is though. If the pilot is heads down in the sight, and there is no human gunner aboard, otto kicks in. I think this would reduce the tendency to use a fort as a "deathstar" because it's awfully hard to chase an airtarget when you're looking down =). It also provides cover for the buff driver over his target if he dinnae have a live, human gunner.
As for gunners joining after takeoff, I dinnae really like the idea. As for the long, boring climb and flight to the target area, the gunners of a formation of 17s could discuss how they want to share the firing arcs around the formation.
Last night I and 2 others flew a 3-ship formation run deep into enemy territory. I thought it was fun keeping all of us together, and once we were over the mountains, we pretty much stayed within a 1k radius in a triangular-type formation. With gunners, this would be a death trap for fighters =)
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LOL cave,, back to the training wing for you!!! LOL 1k.. heheh
(dunno if I could do better, but,,)
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GreyBeard
Flight Commander, Aces High
Skeleton Crew
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After reading PYRO's explanation of how the buff gun system is going to work, I thought it was some ingenous thinking. Damn great idea IMO.
As he said there are a few down sides, but no matter what you do there will always be downsides. The main thing, that has already been psoted here is about multiple bogey's. PErsonally I don't think this is a big problem if you consider the likelyhood of 1 50cal bringing down an a/c, it seems to me that to get the job done you would need a concentration of fire from different guns regardless.
The implemetation should be pretty good to, gunners will place themselves strategically in a gun position with the most lines of sight to basically "direct" the rest of the gun crew. The top turret for example will be a great position, having a huge field of view, you will be able to switch targets quite quickly and easily. With practice we'll have alot of deadly gunners out there and perhaps a new column on the scoring section (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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lol grey
that should have been a 1k diameter, not radius. One of the screenshots I took shows the other 17s at 211 and 531 distance, and we pretty much stayed that close together over bishcuit land (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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To solve the head-down issue, make ack indiscriminate. This would also solve ack hugging and force fighter pilots to stop trying to take off from fields under attack. Ack accuracy could be decreased to more historical levels to compensate (current Ploesti Plus(tm) acks are designed to prevent vulching--but if nobody's taking off from fields under attack, there's no vulching anyway). FWIW.
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Flathat
'Black Dahlia'
No10 RNAS "The Black Flight"
Angel on your wing, devil on your tail
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I think this is a cool Idea since it will let you fly with semi addequate gun coverage
Any one who flew warbirds can tell ya getting a full load of human gunners was almost impossible. At least with Hi Techs new
idea 2 guys are all ya need for a buff.
makes sense and sounds fun.
can't wait to try it.
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Tonight, it ain't right
I got to have me a week.
But I'll be back for you jack and I'll let the machine speak! Thats right Thats right (Maniac Mechanic ZZTop)