Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: nopoop on June 26, 2004, 02:15:25 PM
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Friday night in the main, the yardage icons are the same as AH1 with the addition of the +-.
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Nooooooo.........
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Well that sucks.
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I agree fellas. Drop the plus minus thing too.
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Ya ,Poop. I'll be calling skuzzy on Monday with knife and fork in hand, ready for my main entree of crow and for dessert: Humble Pie.
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nopoop, you sure you havn't just been looking at friendly icons?
HiTech
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Dale, I don't know. Maybe ??
Cheep beers, yankin and bankin on a friday night..noticed the yardage thing like AH1. ASSUMED ( first mistake ) it was applicable to both enemy and friendly.
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the "Exact" icon range only applies to friendlies.
The +/- is useful against enemies where it still goes 1000 to 800 to 600 etc.
This is a step in the right direction, I'd like to see the old system restored entirely.
Edit: I wonder if skuzzy will give me an earful of: "neener neener", "told you so", or something like: "what a dork"
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It's a step in the wrong direction.
But not such an unreasonable compromise I guess. People just can't do without the "take one-look, instantly determine E states" feature.
It'd be more reasonable if it was removed inside 2.0, but I think I can live with what is now.
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I agree, 2 steps forward with the original AH2 icons, now 1 step back.
More time should have been given for folks to adapt and see how it played from there.
Guys that have flown lotsa beta have had a chance to acclimate to them. Almost all the names you saw in game in the early betas are the same guys you see saying it’s step back.
Of all the improvements that came with AH2 the icons was the one unique aspect that stood out. It is sad to see it whined away. HT said he considered the +/- thing early on so I guess we can’t call it a "knee-jerk" reaction to the whines. But it sure seems that way.
But HT is running a business if the icons drive away paying customers then he had to make the change. I don’t know if this is the case but from the bbs whines it was only a handful of folks who will just find something else to whine about.
I guess we should be grateful for what we still have; the only question is for how long...
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get rid of the plus and minus and keep the new range scale or get rid of the range scale and have only the plus and minus
both seems like I am cheating...
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+ - IS AWOMSE>>>> ESPECIALY IF U ARE RUNNING LOW RES
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Just out of interest how did other flight sims handle the Icon thing? Its almost been too long for me to remember, but I recall AW doing the "countdown to zero" as well.
Personally, I'd say turn 'em off entirely and make the nits fly Italian planes and Bish Fly for Finland just to keep everything straight.
:p :D
- SEAGOON
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I hope the +- is temporary and will be turned off after people get used to AH2.
Also - do you think the eb6 thing is a little much? I mean giving you the exact time of fuel left and range - I bet they woulda loved that in WW2.
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"Just out of interest how did other flight sims handle the Icon thing?"
When I played Warbirds (up to 2.77), the WarBirds ICONS gave range as a decimal to the closest 100 yards (such as 23, or 9). The range part of the ICON was visible at a greater distance than the PLANE TYPE icon. The Warbirds ICON system was better than AH's, IMO. I have no experience with the newer versions of WB's so I cannot comment on any changes they may have made.
AirWarrior originally used a very unique system. The ICONS weren't on-screen but, rather, were off to the sides. You had a hard limit of 12 planes which would display. You could not instantly know the E-states and positions of 30 different aircraft in the vicinity, AND you couldn't really use the icon like a "lazer range finder" for the purpose of aiming because you had to take your eyes off the plane in order to check the ICON. Although AW's system was cumbersome, I feel it ended up being the most realistic in terms of overall effect.
WW2OL apparently uses a system by which the ICON "greys out" as distance increases. It also seems to have a component which shows the lift vector of your opponent. I have minimal experience with WW2OL so this may or may not be completely accurate.
J_A_B
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Originally posted by Kweassa
It's a step in the wrong direction.
But not such an unreasonable compromise I guess. People just can't do without the "take one-look, instantly determine E states" feature.
It'd be more reasonable if it was removed inside 2.0, but I think I can live with what is now.
Exactly.
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Originally posted by J_A_B
AirWarrior originally used a very unique system. The ICONS weren't on-screen but, rather, were off to the sides.
That system was before my time..... when I played we had full screen view and a choice of how icons were displayed - short or long. Short icons was only 3 characters for plane-type or CPID, and the distances were expressed as 1.1K, 1.2K, 1.3K etc. Long icons showed up to 5 characters of plane-type or CPID and had the same distance indicators we used to have in AH1. I always used to use long icons as my personal preference - partly because of the way short icons shortened the CPIDs, which got confusing for any that started with the same three letters. :)
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Noo... icons without +/- were just great... had to stare at a con for a bit to determine if its +/-...
hope icons are all gone in AH3
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Originally posted by Kweassa
It's a step in the wrong direction.
But not such an unreasonable compromise I guess. People just can't do without the "take one-look, instantly determine E states" feature.
It'd be more reasonable if it was removed inside 2.0, but I think I can live with what is now.
Explain the reason why you think its a step in the wrong direction? Besides the fact that you personally like saturation err emersion? Wouldnt it be great if it was KAH2? Kweassa's Aces High2? Either remove Icons completely or just settle for any other variant. It really doesnt matter. If you have icons then it matters not what variant of the crutch you need or like. But i do lean to Steves suggestion.. use AH1 icon system if your going to bother having icons at all. At least there would be some security in a familar setting/element from AH1 while adapting to change.
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Explain the reason why you think its a step in the wrong direction? Besides the fact that you personally like saturation err emersion? Wouldnt it be great if it was KAH2? Kweassa's Aces High2?
Reason is self evident, not to mention been discussed a zillion times.
Besides, it's the system initially tried out with AH2 beta versions, which people who participated in the betas for a extended time, have gotten used to, and came to realize that it made sense - making the air combat more immersive and intense than anything before.
Then comes along those people who spent all those lovely evenings in AH1 MA, ignored recommendations to try out AH2 beta and get used to it, prepare for the changes, and etc etc... They tried out AH2 for like what? 2 weeks now? And invent all these elaborate excuses about how they can't get used to it on grounds of 'reality' or 'gameplay'.
KAH? Oh no sir, it ain't only me. It definately ain't only me.
Either remove Icons completely or just settle for any other variant. It really doesnt matter. If you have icons then it matters not what variant of the crutch you need or like. But i do lean to Steves suggestion.. use AH1 icon system if your going to bother having icons at all. At least there would be some security in a famillar setting/element from AH1.
Nice try, dude.
Then by reverse logic, since it really doesn't matter, people shouldn't have whined like pimps getting their first bust in the first place.
Apparently, it seems clear how the icons are implemented does matter, and does have different effects. And those "effects", some people don't like.
For what reason? Glaringly obvious isn't it? All the people who took time to get used to it and learn what it implies obviously had no problems in doing their everyday flight - as compared to those trying AH2 for 2 weeks and then gasping for clemency. That tells us a lot.
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Ya, it tells me that you like immersion more than some people do. It also tells me that you think anyone who is not into the same immersion as you is somehow inferior and a whiner for posting their views.
Why don't you build a "cockpit": around your computer, paint your ceiling w/ cool ack bursts and the colors of a Berlin sky...maybe even Pacific, hang airplanes from string... maybe make a giant ground diarama w/ your floor? That way when you look over the side of your "cockpit" you'll really feel immersed.
Then comes along those people who spent all those lovely evenings in AH1 MA, ignored recommendations to try out AH2 beta and get used to it
This is convenient for you... but inaccurate in my case.
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lol, owned.
I'd like to see the old system restored entirely.
Of course. It's almost as bad as changing the view system. All you guys that are so clever "hiding your "E" " would accept a more realistic 6 view now as well? Sure you would.
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Ya, it tells me that you like immersion more than some people do. It also tells me that you think anyone who is not into the same immersion as you is somehow inferior and a whiner for posting their views.
Bullshi* Steve. It's not just about the immersive qualites as in "ooh, I can't hit anything anymore".
It's about the long process of trying out the icons, getting used to it, and then realizing how it made sense - which is a process none of the folks who are complaining about it went through.
Why don't you build a "cockpit": around your computer, paint your ceiling w/ cool ack bursts and the colors of a Berlin sky...maybe even Pacific, hang airplanes from string... maybe make a giant ground diarama w/ your floor? That way when you look over the side of your "cockpit" you'll really feel immersed.
Completely irrelvant and you know it.
This is convenient for you... but inaccurate in my case.
Like those cases you showed up and played for 5 minutes, comment "this sucks, I'm off to the MA", and then you were gone?
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Like those cases you showed up and played for 5 minutes,
Nice try. You should try to get a job working for Michael Moore.
Completely irrelvant and you know it.
No it isn't. You like immersion. keep me posted on your progress.
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Originally posted by Steve
Ya, it tells me that you like immersion more than some people do.
Hmm, whats the antithesis of immersion, quake?
It also tells me that you think anyone who is not into the same immersion as you is somehow inferior and a whiner for posting their views.
natch
Why don't you build a "cockpit": around your computer, paint your ceiling w/ cool ack bursts and the colors of a Berlin sky...maybe even Pacific, hang airplanes from string... maybe make a giant ground diarama w/ your floor? That way when you look over the side of your "cockpit" you'll really feel immersed.
Cockpit stuff is expensive and takes up too much room but I got the plane on string hanging, P-47D-25, 16 inch sucker I saw at Walmart for 35$, no background art on the walls or floor, but I do tune cable TV to the Big Band channel for '40s theme music! :)
Immersion is the reason to play, else you're just doin another FPS
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I rest my case.
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Oh man, too funny...
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The new icon system is part of the changes that are making it harder for many to get kills.
While your taking longer to get a kill, generally you get a better fight out of it.
Personally i hope we never get a return to the inch perfect laser range finder.
And Mugzee surely your old enough now to be brave enough to drop the security blanket ?
:rofl
Btw would you also not like and refuse to fly if the fading in and out icons that were tried in beta were returned ?
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Dale, have you guys given any thought on implementing WW2OL's icon system?
I know it might not be something you guys would like to do..'copy' someone else's ideas.. but from the way I see it, if it works so good, why not use it to make the overall game experience so much better?
I despise WW2OL's arcade flight system and their Atari2600 gunnery model... but their icon system is so incredibly good it makes the air combat portion of the game be a thrill, even if the flight and gunnery models are arcadish... because its so realistic that you have to constantly scan around AND you get jumped and can jump others, makes teamwork be a must... all because the icons dont pop up instantly giving away target info.
Why not adapt this icon system into AH2? Make the icons just show the basic airframe name (aka spit1 and spit14 show as 'spit', 190 and 152's show as 'FW') . Make icons alpha blend into view depending on how long you've been looking at it....
aka, dot straight ahead ... after 3 seconds of looking straight ahead the icon fades into view letting you see what it is, planes merge, the icon remains solid for 5 seconds even if you're not looking at it, then it begins to fade away if you dont keep looking at it.
As far as a range indicator, I think its NOT needed. At all. Use + and - icons next ot the plane name to show your rate of closure. I say this because you can tell the distance between you and your target by using simple eyesight..if its a dot then its beyond 6.0 , if its in d4.0 or closer you use your gunsight to compare the 'size' of target to your own gunsight...just like real ww2 pilots did.
Or something similar. I just dont like to be given instant info on everything around me..it makes for poor gameplay since it removes the ability of the 'bounce' because in AH1 and now even in AH2, all you need to do is do snap-views, scan each view of the sky for like .1 seconds and one instantly knows that 2 of the 3 planes behind you are enemy and are at X range, above and to all sides theres X number of enemies and their exact info... it just no fun at all.
Again, in ww2ol even with their ****ty flight model, its the icon system that makes the game so immersive in the air.. that dot on your 3 oc .. squint your eyes at it for a few seconds and a pale icon comes out and lets you know if its hostile or not..but no exact info on range or anything.. but whoa! con at 9 oc is enemy! You turn to it, you realize you are closing on it (target image becomes slightly larger) dive under his wings to come up from his belly... and all the time the enemy pilot did not spot you ..all because he was not able to snap view to his high 3 oc and instantly see the big bad enemy icon..he was jumped. and died because he had no wingman that helped him scan the sky.
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Ya know it seems to me that the icon change was brought about by "whiners" complaining about 800 yard "laser" shots.These are the people usually trying to run away from a fight,flying straight and level,no jinking and then whine about an 800 yard hit.Seems to me if your flying straight and level a .50 cal would have no problem hitting you at 800 yrds..Maybe you should try avoiding the shot instead of trying to out run it,then complain about unrealistic gunnery modeling.I personally have gotten quite a few kills over 800 yards in AH1,and im still getting pings at 1k in AH2.Id suggest ya might wanna turn that stick thingy till your outta range.I liked the old icon system and im dissapointed it was changed to please a few whiners who cant deal with being shot down while trying to run away."Dont run you'll only die tired" Burnm P.S. How can you even talk about realism when youve got spits fightin spits??lol
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As far as a range indicator, I think its NOT needed. At all. Use + and - icons next ot the plane name to show your rate of closure. I say this because you can tell the distance between you and your target by using simple eyesight..if its a dot then its beyond 6.0 , if its in d4.0 or closer you use your gunsight to compare the 'size' of target to your own gunsight...just like real ww2 pilots did.
I doubt very strongly that "real" WW II pilots turned nose to every target to get the object in question into the HUD view to compare the size of their target.
Simply using eyesight ... How would you like to give me your eyballs to use cause mine are old and tired and suffer from presbyopia. I wasn't wild about the new AH II icon system but was willing to live with. The + and - have now made it a much more enjoyable experience for me, but forget about what I need or other that may suffer from old eyeballs and maybe worse. We all need to bow to the "realism" junkies so that THEY can enjoy the game.
You know what ... Hit CNTRL-I until it says "Icons Off". That should make it more enjoyable for you without impacting anybody elses enjoyment.
Or something similar. I just dont like to be given instant info on everything around me..it makes for poor gameplay since it removes the ability of the 'bounce' because in AH1 and now even in AH2, all you need to do is do snap-views, scan each view of the sky for like .1 seconds and one instantly knows that 2 of the 3 planes behind you are enemy and are at X range, above and to all sides theres X number of enemies and their exact info... it just no fun at all.
There is no other sim out there that can even compete with the naturalness of the AH view system. I can assure you that I can move my head around in RL as fast as I can in AH so there is nothing wrong with the implementation IMO. As far as all the info one can glean from their views ... without that, this game is dead. Again, if it doesn't suit YOUR needs, then turn the icons off and have a blast, but don't presume that your idea of fun is exactly the same as mine.
Again, in ww2ol even with their ****ty flight model, its the icon system that makes the game so immersive in the air.. that dot on your 3 oc .. squint your eyes at it for a few seconds and a pale icon comes out and lets you know if its hostile or not..but no exact info on range or anything.. but whoa! con at 9 oc is enemy! You turn to it, you realize you are closing on it (target image becomes slightly larger) dive under his wings to come up from his belly... and all the time the enemy pilot did not spot you ..all because he was not able to snap view to his high 3 oc and instantly see the big bad enemy icon..he was jumped. and died because he had no wingman that helped him scan the sky.
Again, I don't get the problem with the views. Are you saying that in RL if I was attacking at my 9, his 3, if the spirit moved him, he could not snap his head to his 3 and see me coming. Was there something attached to the helmets of WW II pilots that prevented them from scanning the skys as fast as there neck would allow ?
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New icon idea. How about, no range. Just the name of the bad guy in red, so we know its a bad guy and react to who he is differently.
For example if you see:
p47-Frenchy, Spit Levi, SlapShot anything, b17 tater or ### dude, p51 Steve etc, you can just bail and claim that the screen locked up.
:D
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That would be nice if when you got within, say 50 yards, you could see who you were fighting. In real combat, pilots could recognize the markings of his opponent when they got real close.
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"We all need to bow to the "realism" junkies so that THEY can enjoy the game."
Nothing personal slapshot, but i believed thats the purpose of this game. Realism. Why aren't you playing fighter ace or something that doesnt try to accurately portray ww2 air combat?
"You know what ... Hit CNTRL-I until it says "Icons Off". That should make it more enjoyable for you without impacting anybody elses enjoyment."
For the same reason you wouldn't go to war with a paintball gun.
"There is no other sim out there that can even compete with the naturalness of the AH view system. I can assure you that I can move my head around in RL as fast as I can in AH so there is nothing wrong with the implementation IMO."
Really? Under how many G's can you see in all directions in a split second?
"As far as all the info one can glean from their views ... without that, this game is dead."
WW2OL proves you incorrect (icon system).
"Again, I don't get the problem with the views. Are you saying that in RL if I was attacking at my 9, his 3, if the spirit moved him, he could not snap his head to his 3 and see me coming. Was there something attached to the helmets of WW II pilots that prevented them from scanning the skys as fast as there neck would allow ?"
Nothing attached to their necks no. But im pretty sure pilots didnt glance to their 3 or 9 positions, saw a silver shape of an airplane and instantenously knew the plane type, the near exact distance between the 2 of them and of course, didnt know if it was friend or foe. And again, I point you to WW2OL's icon system.. with its fade in/out system depending on how long you look at that part of the sky, without giving exact distance to target... those 2 things alone make a crappy arcadish sim into a very immersive and much more realistic (as far as bouncing and air-to-air tactics) than AH's.
Which is ironical.. one game has very realistic modelling but uses an arcade icon system..the other has an arcade modelling but uses an icon system that more accurately simulates what a pilot experienced back then.
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Steve my ol pal right wing nutcase......how you doin bud.
jokin BTW....don't go freak-a-zoid on me now:D
I started in BETA cause I knew the changes would make for some practice time......
now that I do have that said practice time.....I've put the damn icons so small all i see is a red dot.....
RED DOT = Kill the bastage
I don't need no stinking 400 600 800 yards lazer guided finder anymore.....just takes awhile to coordinate visual and hands.....kinda makes it fun and different then AH1.
anyways, why would you need icon range...your a rook....what you need is a powerful Telescope to look down from space:rofl
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Originally posted by OIO
"We all need to bow to the "realism" junkies so that THEY can enjoy the game."
Nothing personal slapshot, but i believed thats the purpose of this game. Realism. Why aren't you playing fighter ace or something that doesnt try to accurately portray ww2 air combat?
Originally posted by Burnm
How can you even talk about realism when youve got spits fightin spits??lol
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Nothing personal slapshot, but i believed thats the purpose of this game. Realism. Why aren't you playing fighter ace or something that doesnt try to accurately portray ww2 air combat?
Nothing personal taken. You have your opinion and I have mine.
Realism ... please ... take a look at the game in total. Far from realism and if it was realistic it would be dead.
There has to be a balance between enjoyment and realism ... I trust HTCs decisions in this area and only voice my opinions when I think that the "realism" junkies lobby for stuff that goes over the line.
For the same reason you wouldn't go to war with a paintball gun.
That make no sense. You want realism, then shut off the icons. Thats real.
Really? Under how many G's can you see in all directions in a split second?
Splitting hairs I see. No sim can simulate that effect. You know exactly what I was getting at. Don't cloud the point with another requirement.
WW2OL proves you incorrect (icon system).
Never seen it so I can't comment on that. What I was referring to was the smoothness of the viewing system allowing one to scan the sky naturally and efficiently ... not icon information.
Nothing attached to their necks no. But im pretty sure pilots didnt glance to their 3 or 9 positions, saw a silver shape of an airplane and instantenously knew the plane type, the near exact distance between the 2 of them and of course, didnt know if it was friend or foe. And again, I point you to WW2OL's icon system.. with its fade in/out system depending on how long you look at that part of the sky, without giving exact distance to target... those 2 things alone make a crappy arcadish sim into a very immersive and much more realistic (as far as bouncing and air-to-air tactics) than AH's.
Your pretty sure ? ... so your not positve. Then its just compete conjecture on your part ... right ? Sorry, that doesn't really cut for me.
I could say ...
I am pretty sure pilots did glance to their 3 or 9 positions, saw a silver shape of an airplane and instantenously knew the plane type, the near exact distance between the 2 of them and of course, didnt know if it was friend or foe.
... and you would take that as fact and I would now convince you otherwise ... I don't think so.
So the fade in/out was something that they had in WW II ? That alone, if I understand it correctly is a que as to closure/separation, without distance numbers. Is this something that was available to the pilots in WW II ? If not, then its not really "real" ergo its "gamey".
or is it ...
More "realistic" than what AH is showing ? Thats got to be it ? Right ?
Mountains out of Molehills !!!
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This is a step in the right direction, I'd like to see the old system restored entirely.
ditto...
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Some people just can't adapt to change.
The new icon system is much better IMO. It compensates for the lack of 3D view without giving superhuman accuracy to the estimation of distance.
I come from WB (2.7x). I learned since the beginning to use an icon system similar to what we have now.
Proof is, I had my first fight in AH2 2 nights ago. I landed 3 kills with my G6, and i'm far from a hotshot. The new icon system hasn't bothered me one bit.
If some old AH1 'aces' are now unable to hit the broad side of a barn, it just means that they were somehow 'gaming the game' by using the laser rangefinder accuracy of the old icon system.
They'll adapt or they'll quit....either way I don't care.
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Originally posted by deSelys
Some people just can't adapt to change.
The new icon system is much better IMO. It compensates for the lack of 3D view without giving superhuman accuracy to the estimation of distance.
I come from WB (2.7x). I learned since the beginning to use an icon system similar to what we have now.
Proof is, I had my first fight in AH2 2 nights ago. I landed 3 kills with my G6, and i'm far from a hotshot. The new icon system hasn't bothered me one bit.
If some old AH1 'aces' are now unable to hit the broad side of a barn, it just means that they were somehow 'gaming the game' by using the laser rangefinder accuracy of the old icon system.
They'll adapt or they'll quit....either way I don't care.
I don' think you get it.
The old AH I icons system put those who can see well and those who can't on a level playing field when it came to judging closure/separation.
When HT introduced the new icon system, those who don't see well (like me) were shackled when it came to judging closure/separation. The addition of the + - indicator has now put us back on a level playing field.
I don't consider myself an "ace", but I have had no real problems at getting kills at all in AH II, and it has nothing to do with the icons or "gaming the game". Gunnery itself has changed and it has nothing to do at all with icons.
I only need to know closure/separation (more closure) at the onset of the fight. Once the fight is on, I don't even see the icon indicators anymore, I watch your wings. If I get on your 6, you will die, and it won't be because of the icon or its indicators.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
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The old AH I icons system put those who can see well and those who can't on a level playing field when it came to judging closure/separation.
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BS...The $$$ you paid for your monitor have a much greater influence than the quality of your eyeballs Mk I.
I'll probably sound harsh: if you have trouble to evaluate your rate of closure because of your eyesight, buy yourself a nice big monitor. If you cant' afford it...well this is sad for you, but why should the game have to be tuned down to be accessible to a few? If we start down this road, I see no reason not to tune down the FM as well so the guys flying with a mouse because they can't afford a joystick will be put on a level playing field with those who can.
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Originally posted by deSelys
BS...The $$$ you paid for your monitor have a much greater influence than the quality of your eyeballs Mk I.
I'll probably sound harsh: if you have trouble to evaluate your rate of closure because of your eyesight, buy yourself a nice big monitor. If you cant' afford it...well this is sad for you, but why should the game have to be tuned down to be accessible to a few? If we start down this road, I see no reason not to tune down the FM as well so the guys flying with a mouse because they can't afford a joystick will be put on a level playing field with those who can.
I have a 20 inch Sony Trinitron Monitor at 100Mhz refresh so it's not the monitor.
Harsh ... no ... selfish ... absolutely.
I believe that HT's intention is to provide Aces High to the masses. That would include people that have trouble seeing.
You obviously speak from a higher ground and have no clue as to what its like not to see "perfectly" so your observations are slightly biased. I use to see "perfectly". I had 20/10 vision up until I got into my 40s, and at that point I started to lose the ability to see clearly, close up.
I don't wish this upon you at all, but if the day comes that you do experience what I now deal with, you will sing a whole different tune ... guaranteed !!!
Don't confuse dealing with the FM with the ability to see. Handling the FM is pure feel and understanding. Some do it better than others, but it is never really hampered by physical inabilities. And if you haven't noticed, there is the "stall limiter" to dumb down the FM for those that feel they need it.
Don't be such a smart-ass with this "buy" crap. I CAN'T buy a new set of eyes to put me on a level playing field with you. Last I knew nobody has even tried eyeball transplants.
Also, there is no operation at this point in time that will fix presbyopia (they are working on one) otherwise I would have already had it done.
Like I said above ... harsh ... no ... selfish ... absolutely.
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Selfish, ok....I'm guilty.
I'm honestly sorry for what you're going through. And I sincerely hope that a cure, or any kind of improvement will be available to you in a near future.
But where does it stop then? Why make this game impossible to play to people with worse vision problems than you, with low reaction time, or extremely bad eye-hand coordination... Should vox have to disappear to allow deaf people to play without missing messages from their countrymates? Would you agree with this, or are you just interested with specific adjustments which suit you.
I'm all for fixes or workarounds allowing people with disabilities to enjoy the game (like the configurable icon colors for colorblind people) as long as it doesn't tune down what I consider to be a complex but rewarding game.
But if HTC comes with another solution allowing you to be on a level playground with us (for instance a combination of WWIIOL fading icons, +/- rate of closure indicator and 100-200-300... range numbers) I'm all for it.
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I know what you mean Slapshot. I had cataracts in both my eyes and had the surgery in the 1970's. Needless to say alot of scar tissue was left and I'm very lucky to have the vision I have, for both my sister & mother are blind because of this. I also have Iritis in both my eyes and that causes me to get bad headaches. I have been in so much pain that I've had Atropine injections in my eyes to stop the burning. People who joke about such things have no idea. They better pray to God it does not happen to them.
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Selfish, ok....I'm guilty.
Great ... If you know it ... then stop it.
I'm honestly sorry for what you're going through. And I sincerely hope that a cure, or any kind of improvement will be available to you in a near future.
Me too ... more than you can imagine.
But where does it stop then? Why make this game impossible to play to people with worse vision problems than you, with low reaction time, or extremely bad eye-hand coordination... Should vox have to disappear to allow deaf people to play without missing messages from their countrymates? Would you agree with this, or are you just interested with specific adjustments which suit you.
There is a point at which sacrafices cannot be made ... that I agree on, but fail to believe that the introduction of the +/- indicator is anywhere near that point.
There is nothing that HT can do for people that have low reaction time and bad hand-eye coordination. Again, those are things that can be improved upon with practice. I can't practice better eye sight.
As far as Vox ... we have text radio channel that handles any problems with not being able to hear. I was here before Vox became a reality so I know that works. I had an incident last week where I was screaming on Vox for a guy to check his 6. He never made a move and was killed. Next thing I see on local channel was "Thanks for the check 6". I told him that I warned him at least a half-a-dozen times. He types back ... "I am deaf so I could not hear you". I felt like crap assuming that everybody could hear. My use of the check 6 button, in conjunction with vox, since that incident, has risen dramtically.
Would you agree with this, or are you just interested with specific adjustments which suit you.
Again your being a smart-ass. No need for it. If there were other physical handicaps that prevent people from playing this game on a level playing field, and I owned the game, I would be more than willing to listen and not have a selfish and myopic view of how this game should be played.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
I don' think you get it.
The old AH I icons system put those who can see well and those who can't on a level playing field when it came to judging closure/separation.
When HT introduced the new icon system, those who don't see well (like me) were shackled when it came to judging closure/separation. The addition of the + - indicator has now put us back on a level playing field
I don't buy that slap, not for a minute. In the first place the vast majority of people now a days where glasses to correct vision. I have a pair of thickstirs on myself when playing. It's not about "seeing" at all that bothers people. That's an excuse. It's about rapid information delivery.
With the beta system one IMPORTANT factor was added to the icon system. No longer was there instantanous information delivery. You had to actually take more than an instant view to judge closure. You'd have to keep checking and catch that distance icon change. MUCH more realistic while not "handycapping" ANYONE. Those icons are still there, but no longer give immediate information. I like that alot.
To say a + - indicator levels the playing field it just isn't true. The playing field is as level as it always was. The +- just makes it "easier"
It's taking away a very good idea. I'm with deSelys on this one.
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Originally posted by nopoop
I don't buy that slap, not for a minute. In the first place the vast majority of people now a days where glasses to correct vision. I have a pair of thickstirs on myself when playing. It's not about "seeing" at all that bothers people. That's an excuse. It's about rapid information delivery.
With the beta system one IMPORTANT factor was added to the icon system. No longer was there instantanous information delivery. You had to actually take more than an instant view to judge closure. You'd have to keep checking and catch that distance icon change. MUCH more realistic while not "handycapping" ANYONE. Those icons are still there, but no longer give immediate information. I like that alot.
To say a + - indicator levels the playing field it just isn't true. The playing field is as level as it always was. The +- just makes it "easier"
It's taking away a very good idea. I'm with deSelys on this one.
poop ... I am not asking you to buy, nor do I care if you buy it.
I am telling you what it is from my viewpoint. Saying that "you don't buy that" is in essence calling me a liar which is something that is not part of my character. I am not lying, nor making this up to just argue ... I am not trolling here. I feel strong about this and try to prove my point(s) in a calm tone, but I can guarantee you that I speak facts, and only from where I sit. I'm not speaking for you, or others and won't pretent to.
I too wear glasses (obviously). With the AH I icon system, I was able to distiguish closure or separation very quickly by viewing the numbers. When that was gone (in AH II), I can't tell you how many times I thought that I was chasing, only to find out that I truly was closing and the con was by me and on me before I could react. This was never the case in AH I ... trust me on it.
Before the +/- indicator was introduced I never said a word (whine) about it and was readly to deal with it as best I could, but since HT had the insight as to add these indicators, the game, enjoyment-wise, is back to where it was in AH I for me and I don't want to lose it.
To say a + - indicator levels the playing field it just isn't true. The playing field is as level as it always was. The +- just makes it "easier"
That is such bollocks ... I can't believe that you said that.
The AH I icon system made things much easier to determine closure/separation than what we have now, even with addition the +/- indicator. One still has to pay attention to the yardage indicator to guesstimate speed and the countdown/up that we have now is not as easy as it was in AH I. With that in mind, the playing field that we have now, with this icon system is NOT the same as it always was ... nowhere near it.
I am not looking for easier ... never have ... never will. I am looking for enjoyment and before this +/- indicator, it was more frustration than enjoyment.
I'm with deSelys on this one.
First time I have ever seen you with a selfish attitude.
Think about this REAL hard.
The addition of the +/- indicator makes this game that much more enjoyable and viable for some and really, in the grand schema of AH, doesn't hinder/hamper the enjoyment for those with good eyesight.
The ones who are fighting this are fighting it for the cause of "realism" and to hell with the rest of ya. I don't like it where it could go and choose to speak up about it.
I guess this +/- indicator would really make or break this game for you "realism" fanatics in the larger grander scale of things.
Truly unbelievable.
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Saying that "you don't buy that" is in essence calling me a liar
Come on Slap, you know me, I just don't buy the premise of your arguement. It isn't a "vision" thing it all. That's where your premise falls short.
I was able to distiguish closure or separation very quickly by viewing the numbers
Of course you could, so could everybody. It has nothing to do with vision, With the beta system, you couldn't. Neither could anyone else. That's what I liked, no "instant" information, you had to watch, and watch close. If anything, it was an equalizer between those like Levi for example, who can process mulitple cons, their angles and closure rate in an instant AND REMEMBER IT ALL and duffers like myself :D
the playing field that we have now, with this icon system is NOT the same as it always was ... nowhere near it.
I agree, but I liked it much more without the + -
First time I have ever seen you with a selfish attitude
Jeez Slap, I disagree with you vision premise, I enjoyed the beta icons, I'm not a realist, I just found them more enjoyable. And gave you the reasons that I enjoyed them.
It's not a game breaker, I'm not a fanatic, you now me better. I disagree with the vision premise and now your going to put me in a box ???
WHASSSUP WIT DAT ??
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I also prefer the none +/- system.
Originally I thought the new system was great, then the last few nights I noticed that I could scan the sky with about 10-20 cons and know instantly who coming/going, gaining/dropping away.
Instantly. That seems rather cheezy to me.
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Originally posted by nopoop
Saying that "you don't buy that" is in essence calling me a liar
Come on Slap, you know me, I just don't buy the premise of your arguement. It isn't a "vision" thing it all. That's where your premise falls short.
I was able to distiguish closure or separation very quickly by viewing the numbers
Of course you could, so could everybody. It has nothing to do with vision, With the beta system, you couldn't. Neither could anyone else. That's what I liked, no "instant" information, you had to watch, and watch close. If anything, it was an equalizer between those like Levi for example, who can process mulitple cons, their angles and closure rate in an instant AND REMEMBER IT ALL and duffers like myself :D
the playing field that we have now, with this icon system is NOT the same as it always was ... nowhere near it.
I agree, but I liked it much more without the + -
First time I have ever seen you with a selfish attitude
Jeez Slap, I disagree with you vision premise, I enjoyed the beta icons, I'm not a realist, I just found them more enjoyable. And gave you the reasons that I enjoyed them.
It's not a game breaker, I'm not a fanatic, you now me better. I disagree with the vision premise and now your going to put me in a box ???
WHASSSUP WIT DAT ??
My apologies for making the wrong assumptions then.
For me poop .. it is a vision thing ... simple as that ... no fluff attached and why you keep telling me it's not, is beyond me.
Of course you could, so could everybody.
Well well ... all things equal at that point. Such was not the case with the intial Beta icons.
It has nothing to do with vision, With the beta system, you couldn't. Neither could anyone else.
Not from what I have read ... most have said that they can tell whether there is closure or separation by seeing the change in the plane shape (getting larger or smaller). That is not something that I was picking up on very easily in AH II. Not so bad in AH I from where I sat. AH I was much more clearer and defined than what I am experiencing in AH II.
That's what I liked, no "instant" information, you had to watch, and watch close. If anything, it was an equalizer between those like Levi for example, who can process mulitple cons, their angles and closure rate in an instant AND REMEMBER IT ALL and duffers like myself :D
I did watch and watch close ... can you say HEADACHE and confusion !!!
Leave Levi out of this ... there is no equalizer, for the likes of us, that will help. I swear he is the "DareDevil". He has senses that are not from this planet ... ;)
Jeez Slap, I disagree with you vision premise, I enjoyed the beta icons, I'm not a realist, I just found them more enjoyable. And gave you the reasons that I enjoyed them.
Glad you enjoyed them .. I didn't ... I am enjoying them now.
It's not a game breaker, I'm not a fanatic, you now me better. I disagree with the vision premise and now your going to put me in a box ???
WHASSSUP WIT DAT ??
Again ... apologies for my assumptions. I was taken back by your response and its thrust, as I interpreted it.
<> poop
I am done with this conversation. I am attacking people that I like and thats going over the edge for me.
I believe that I made my point(s) and hopefully HT and the "Crew" has read them, and agree with them.
If not, so be it. I will not whine, nor threaten to quit, I will just deal with it.
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...makes a note to put Slap back on the Christmas card list.
:D
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slapshot, id suggest you play WW2OL just to see the icon system on aircraft (nay pay attention to the bogus fm or combat in it.. just take a look at the icons while in the air).
You will see what i mean when i say ww2ol icon system proves it.