Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: muckmaw on June 27, 2004, 04:30:16 PM
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Terrorists wove taken an American Marine Hostage and threaten to kill him have demanded the release of prisoners in Iraqi jails.
I know we have to take the high road here, and I don;t necessarily agree with it.
But what if we sent them a video of the prisoners they want released with guns to THEIR heads.
Kill your prisoners, and we kill ours.
I already know what some of you are going to say....
The high road sux sometimes.
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They can't be trusted. When we release the prisoners we have they will probably kill the prisoner they have of ours. Even if US considered something like pointing a gun to their heads, I'm not sure the Iraqi's would even care they died. It would just probably give them another reason to keep this kind of behavior up.
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Originally posted by XtrmeJ
They can't be trusted. When we release the prisoners we have they will probably kill the prisoner they have of ours. Even if US considered something like pointing a gun to their heads, I'm not sure the Iraqi's would even care they died. It would just probably give them another reason to keep this kind of behavior up.
It just seems like we sit here and take it...
Its very frustrating.
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Originally posted by muckmaw
But what if we sent them a video of the prisoners they want released with guns to THEIR heads.
the whole world saw much worse than that with the prison abuse photos....which didn't help your cause much, did it?:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by xrtoronto
the whole world saw much worse than that with the prison abuse photos....which didn't help your cause much, did it?:rolleyes:
Are you a human being?
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Originally posted by xrtoronto
the whole world saw much worse than that with the prison abuse photos....which didn't help your cause much, did it?:rolleyes:
Seriously - just imagine their reaction if we actually ABUSED the prisoners instead of snapped a few pictures!
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Originally posted by muckmaw
It just seems like we sit here and take it...
Its very frustrating.
I know what ya mean, but there really is not alot we can do about it. The actions chosen are not necessarily the best ones, but thats not our decision to make.
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Originally posted by NUKE
Are you a human being?
Sure he is.
You can be Human AND retarded.
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Torture? Bah!...
It was Freedom Tickling! :D
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xrtoronto
he whole world saw much worse than that with the prison abuse photos....which didn't help your cause much, did it?
Sure, everyone would agree that taking a picture of a man naked is worse than beheading a man with a dull knife, taking 10 minutes to do it while the person screams and suffers. Much worse.
What a stupid fxck you must be to make such a statement.
And next you will say Bush is worse than Hitler.
dago
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Difference is... the guys who took the pictures and whatnot were punished by the US military (court marshal or whatever)
On the other hand the guys who torture US troops are encouraged by their superiors
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There will be a price to pay for murdering marines or soldiers horrifically on video. Their comptratiots will likely pay it when they attempt to surrender after a fierce fight.
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Originally posted by xrtoronto
the whole world saw much worse than that with the prison abuse photos....which didn't help your cause much, did it?:rolleyes:
You were never in a fraternity were you...
if you think that was more than juvenile horsepoo rough housing, then you need to get your head examined.
Tell ya what, while I will not back this up with any proof or discuss it further, training for certain elements of the US military was a lot rougher and meaner than we saw in those Iraqi prisons (minus the sexual stuff, thats just perverted trailer trash getting out of control). I can say this, as I often enough posed as opforce and was meant to be captured to allow our guys the chance to handle a "live prisoner". Two broken ribs, a nose, and numerous bruises, scrapes, and cuts later, and I am no worse for wear, much like those "abused prisoners". War is mean, hellacious, and the most horrible thing imaginable, but guess what, it is war, and if "roughing up" a prisoner to garner intel that makes the war end sooner or keeps our guys safe, I am all for it. So get a grip, don't try to compare terrorists beheading ta man slowly and maliciously to that of what happened in that Iraqi prison, they are not even remotely the same.
to all you coalition and US soldiers over there hanging it out. You are truly great people, each and every one of you. I you eternally.
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Originally posted by xrtoronto
the whole world saw much worse than that with the prison abuse photos....which didn't help your cause much, did it?:rolleyes:
Hmmm .....
Been awhile ....
Gotta say it ...
You're a dumbarse. :aok
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Not saying it's the right thing to do:
But a young Major was faced with an uprising of Muslim extremist in the early 1920's in the Philipines. After they brutally murdered a US Army soldier the US Army captured a few of the extremist responsible.
They were tried sentenced to be executed by firing squad. At their execution the Major made an anouncement. Any Muslim that committed such acts would be meet the same fate.
The prisoners where tied to a stake to be executed by firing squad. Before the sentence was carried out a pig was brought out and slaughtered. The ammunition for the firing squad was soaked in the pigs blood and the prisoners where allowed to watch the firing squad detail reach into the blood soak pile of ammunition and load thier rifles.
All but one of the prisoners was shot with these bullets. The surviving prisoner was ordered to dig graves for his compatriots. Their bodies were placed in the graves along with the cut up remains of the hog. The last prisoner was released and instructed to go back and tell his comrades that the same fate awaited them if they continued to murder US soldiers.
Major MacArthur had no further problems with Muslim extremist and for almost 50 years there was peace.
Crumpp
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Originally posted by Crumpp
The prisoners where tied to a stake to be executed by firing squad. Before the sentence was carried out a pig was brought out and slaughtered. The ammunition for the firing squad was soaked in the pigs blood and the prisoners where allowed to watch the firing squad detail reach into the blood soak pile of ammunition and load thier rifles.
What was the point of killing the innocent pig? Am I missing something, or did Muslim extremist have a thing for pigs? Bastages :D
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It would be nice (ruleing out all external factors and influences) to see what reverse psychology might do. Of course, it's only a daydream since it would never be possible to find out. In the real world, only the bad guys wear black. ;)
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It's against Islam to consume pork, bro.
Even today, in Afghanistan, the bad guys would ask if they could stop the fighting to bury their dead. They believe a body must be properly buried and cleaned in order to enter heaven. Being buried with a hog and shot with a pig blood soaked bullet means no chance to enter heaven.
Crumpp
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Thanks for the info bud, I really had no idea hehe. I can see how that would really get a point accross. Not necessarily the best way, as you have said, but it does let them know we are serious. Some times only these types of measures can put an end to some charades. Doesn't work in all cases, and I wouldnt want behavior of the sort to be implemented in all cases.
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Originally posted by Crumpp
Not saying it's the right thing to do:
But a young Major was faced with an uprising of Muslim extremist in the early 1920's in the Philipines. After they brutally murdered a US Army soldier the US Army captured a few of the extremist responsible.
They were tried sentenced to be executed by firing squad. At their execution the Major made an anouncement. Any Muslim that committed such acts would be meet the same fate.
The prisoners where tied to a stake to be executed by firing squad. Before the sentence was carried out a pig was brought out and slaughtered. The ammunition for the firing squad was soaked in the pigs blood and the prisoners where allowed to watch the firing squad detail reach into the blood soak pile of ammunition and load thier rifles.
All but one of the prisoners was shot with these bullets. The surviving prisoner was ordered to dig graves for his compatriots. Their bodies were placed in the graves along with the cut up remains of the hog. The last prisoner was released and instructed to go back and tell his comrades that the same fate awaited them if they continued to murder US soldiers.
Major MacArthur had no further problems with Muslim extremist and for almost 50 years there was peace.
Crumpp
Never happened.. but nice story:rolleyes:
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http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pershing.htm
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Didn't huh?
The Catholic church was growing in power in the Philipines at that time which made the Muslim minority uncomfortable. There were quite a few Muslim seperatist groups that formed and began to cause trouble for Philipine society.
I think I got the date wrong though. I will check at work were the story is posted on the Unit bulletin board.
Crumpp
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Well their you have it!
It was Pershing and only a threat.
Anyway, What I said about Muslim's in Afghanistan needing to bury thier dead within 24 hours after death is true. It happenend to me.
So didn't having poor ignorant "taliban" fighters tell me they were fighting us because the Taliban said we would kill and eat their children, rape thier wives, and make them renounce Islam.
One poor guy broke down into tears when he was told that not only was he lied too, but that we have freedom of religion in the United States and would fight for his right to practice his....
Crumpp
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Here's the Gunslinger's $0.02,
If they are holding a Marine and kill him you can be assured it will energize his fellow Marines.
In Faluja ALOT of Marines became casualties in order to protect civilians. They faught valiently like their title dictates they should. I imagine every Marine in country would still do their job but I think they would be a little less sympathetic to Insurgents pointing weapons weapons at them.
The truth is I feel their pain because they are and will allways be my brothers. I wish I was their with them and at the same time very glad I am not. Semper Fi brothers.
Yup terrorism sucks because it works. People have a reaction to the killing so they keep doing it.
I'm not sure if what I'd do if I was ever a hostage, I do hope I'd have the courage to spit in their faces and go down fighting even if my hands are tied.
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Nazi's would have been proud of you...
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Originally posted by muckmaw
Terrorists wove taken an American Marine Hostage and threaten to kill him have demanded the release of prisoners in Iraqi jails.
I know we have to take the high road here, and I don;t necessarily agree with it.
But what if we sent them a video of the prisoners they want released with guns to THEIR heads.
Kill your prisoners, and we kill ours.
I already know what some of you are going to say....
The high road sux sometimes.
Better yet, for every prisoner they murder, we blow up a mosque.
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Better yet, for every prisoner they murder, we blow up a mosque.
Looks like we have a winner in the retarded-suggestion-of-the-day competition folks.
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Originally posted by AKIron
There will be a price to pay for murdering marines or soldiers horrifically on video. Their comptratiots will likely pay it when they attempt to surrender after a fierce fight.
I think that Iron has got it in one.
I'm sure the message of the marines' displeasure will make its way back to the people who are fighting them.
I'm trying to think of a single example where a coalition prisoner has actually been treated humanely and released and cannot. Are there any on record?
Ravs
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Plenty of them have been released. Some all the way from Gitmo, most within a few days of capture.
In fact it became time consuming and began to get in the way of hunting bad guys.
Each PUC "Person Under Control" released has to be picked up from the Military Police and transported to the location of his choice. It's not the MP's who do the transporting. It's the combat units. More than half of the PUC's taken in get released within a few days.
It's no wonder people don't know what's going on over in Iraq and Afghanistan. The Media is so biased and desperate to discredit Bush they have created a false perception of the ground truth. I had to laugh when it was discovered that the LA times has link on one of the AQ websites...
It fits since the American Media is the best propaganda machine the bad guys have going for them. And I mean down to outright LIES. One battle, not a single reporter was in the area. The papers report we killed almost 50 woman and children. NOT one woman OR child was killed. Two children were wounded. A ten year old boy who father brought him up on the ambush line with him. Like we take our kids hunting as a father and son bonding moment. He was medevac'd immediately with a piece of shrapnel in his shoulder. The second was a 14 year old girl who was grazed by a bullet in the arm. See the bad guys used her front yard to put up a Machine Gun bunker. So when we returned fire, the bullets would go through the house. She was medevac'd also. Both children not only lived but made a full recovery.
In this case ONE reporter came out his hotel in the capital. A local told him he knew the whole story about the big battle going on that day. So the reporter promply took it down and the other reporters got their info from him.
Crumpp
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BTW,
Contrary to the Media created perception they are all treated humanely.
The are feed and kept healthy. They are not always kept comfortable. At least not once their status is determined. If they are bad guys, life is not comfrotable but it is humane and they are kept healthy. If they are not a bad guy but just a poor guy in the wrong place at the wrong time then they are kept comfortable until we can transport them back within 48 hours of thier status change.
PUC's are not taken in for no reason, folks. These are people who doing bad things. Most of them are caught in the act. Quite a few come from the host nation forces and not coalition forces.
Some of them just have stuff like rocket's and explosives in their house. You think somebody might want to question them and find out why they have 50 rpg rockets??
Crumpp
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hey.. xtoronto believes everything in a m moore movie.. his hate for the U.S. knows no bounds but he ends up looking foolish... story of his life.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
hey.. xtoronto believes everything in a m moore movie.. his hate for the U.S. knows no bounds but he ends up looking foolish... story of his life.
lazs
We've got alot of that on this board these days.
I'm afraid this board may be a microcosm of the world, too.
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The problem with a Democracy is that the citizens have a duty to stay informed on the issues at hand since they have an informed say in Government.
Unfortunately what you see in the Western World is people spending less than 1 percent of their time viewing extremely biased media reporting and 99 percent of thier free time spent watching things like South Park.
During that 1 percent they form all of their opinions on all issues both foreign and domestic.
Crumpp
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Once again for the truely stupid who keep on wishing to deny it. American soldiers beat a man to death at Abu Ghraib.
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No Thrawn they didn't. But you have the guy convicted and sentenced already.
The Media reported that. The man accused of that was arrested just across the street from where I work. It will be interesting to see the trial outcome.
The other side of the story is the guy died of a heart attack in his cell with no else present. His heart condition is verified by the Doctor that did his physical exam when he was taken into custody and is backed up by his relatives who are witnesses for the defense.
Crumpp
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Once again for the truely stupid who keep on wishing to deny it. American soldiers beat a man to death at Abu Ghraib.
I thought liberals were all about Due Process and "Innocent until Proven Guilty".
Did I miss the trial?
Of course, if we never went to Iraq, this Iraqi would still be alive, right?
Unless, of course, he became one of the tens of thousands of people Saddam tortured and killed as a matter of policy at Abu Gharib.
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Originally posted by _Schadenfreude_
Nazi's would have been proud of you...
If you are directing this towards Gunslinger, you are the biggest prettythanghole walking this planet...
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Seems to be alot of reading comprehension problems here, huh GS?
Gotta go...I'm late for a "Party meeting".
We're practiving our goose-stepping today!
Now where is my brown shirt?
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Originally posted by muckmaw
I thought liberals were all about Due Process and "Innocent until Proven Guilty".
Did I miss the trial?
Unless, of course, he became one of the tens of thousands of people Saddam tortured and killed as a matter of policy at Abu Gharib.
You get five thumbs up for being so ironical! :aok :aok :aok :aok :aok
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Do I need to make a speech now?
Has anyone ever won the coveted Thrawn 5-Thumber?
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Originally posted by Crumpp
Plenty of them have been released. Some all the way from Gitmo, most within a few days of capture.
In fact it became time consuming and began to get in the way of hunting bad guys.
Each PUC "Person Under Control" released has to be picked up from the Military Police and transported to the location of his choice. It's not the MP's who do the transporting. It's the combat units. More than half of the PUC's taken in get released within a few days.
It's no wonder people don't know what's going on over in Iraq and Afghanistan. The Media is so biased and desperate to discredit Bush they have created a false perception of the ground truth. I had to laugh when it was discovered that the LA times has link on one of the AQ websites...
It fits since the American Media is the best propaganda machine the bad guys have going for them. And I mean down to outright LIES. One battle, not a single reporter was in the area. The papers report we killed almost 50 woman and children. NOT one woman OR child was killed. Two children were wounded. A ten year old boy who father brought him up on the ambush line with him. Like we take our kids hunting as a father and son bonding moment. He was medevac'd immediately with a piece of shrapnel in his shoulder. The second was a 14 year old girl who was grazed by a bullet in the arm. See the bad guys used her front yard to put up a Machine Gun bunker. So when we returned fire, the bullets would go through the house. She was medevac'd also. Both children not only lived but made a full recovery.
In this case ONE reporter came out his hotel in the capital. A local told him he knew the whole story about the big battle going on that day. So the reporter promply took it down and the other reporters got their info from him.
Crumpp
Sorry, I was being imprecise, when I said a coalition prisoner I meant coalition troops who have been taken prisoner, not prisoners of the coalition. So, to repeat my question:
I'm trying to think of a single example where a coalition prisoner has actually been treated humanely and released and cannot. Are there any on record?
Ravs
Ravs
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No,
None of the Coalition troops that have been taken prisoner by these criminals have been released.
All the prisoners recovered, even those taken by the Iraqi Army when it existed, have either been rescued directly from captivity or have been rescued after their captor's abandoned them fleeing advancing coalition forces.
At least that I am aware of...
Crumpp
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Originally posted by lazs2
hey.. xtoronto believes everything in a m moore movie.. his hate for the U.S. knows no bounds but he ends up looking foolish... story of his life.
lazs
many of you should stop this bad practice of putting words in other peoples mouths....
I haven't seen f9/11 yet...I won't know what to think of it until I do see it tomorrow.
being critical of this administration and this war doesn't mean I hate the US - not even close
and for looking foolish...all I said in the thread was that muck's idea of sending pics with guns pointed at iraqi prisoners is dumb, and we have already seen worse pictures from the prisoner abuse scandal which didn't help anything. (pic of a prisoner with gun pointed at him is nothing )
I never compared it to these fu*kheads beheading someone..you did that and then try to infer that I said it (and compared it to the pic of a prisoner with a gun pointed at him)...that makes YOU look foolish.
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Originally posted by Bodhi
If you are directing this towards Gunslinger, you are the biggest prettythanghole walking this planet...
Your opinion means less than nothing - get clue idot - I was referring to the sociopath who thinks it's a good idea to indulge in mass murder....except that you must take the "high road" otherwise hey - just kill - that's the answer!!!
Am off to vomit....
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Originally posted by _Schadenfreude_
Your opinion means less than nothing - get clue idot -
You idot...get clue...Iraq was neva a treat..just plane redekuluooos.
:rofl :aok
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Life should be good and easy under the influence of propaganda ... does it compare with being like a crack addict ?
In my opinion : yes.
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Wow, this thread is sick!
Btw muckmaw, u might have seen it in Israel and Palestine: to combat terrorists with terrorists methods doesnt work.
@Crumpp: ur cute
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Originally posted by _Schadenfreude_
get clue idot
::cough::
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Originally posted by Bodhi
You were never in a fraternity were you...
I pledged but quit, which one were you in?
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Muck...from what we have seen to date take a wild guess as to what would happen if we did what you proposed.
If anything it would encourage the terrorists to catch more people and behead them. Why? Because the point of their behaviour is to provoke an extreme reaction, thus losing us even more sympathy in that part of the world.
So no, I think your idea won't work.
Ravs
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Once again for the truely stupid who keep on wishing to deny it. American soldiers beat a man to death at Abu Ghraib.
You been spouting this one for a while. Never heard of such a thing. Prove it.
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Originally posted by Crumpp
No,
None of the Coalition troops that have been taken prisoner by these criminals have been released.
All the prisoners recovered, even those taken by the Iraqi Army when it existed, have either been rescued directly from captivity or have been rescued after their captor's abandoned them fleeing advancing coalition forces.
At least that I am aware of...
Crumpp
Well, we need an answer to this before we can take Muck's question at face value, I think.
Ravs
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Should we give in to the dark side it won't be by slaughtering a few prisoners. We do have a LOT of newkuler weapons ya know.
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Ah...so if we don't win hearts and minds, we just evaporate them so we don't have to win them?
Iron...I'm surprised at you!
Ravs
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I was only saying that if we were to become the animals some of these guys have proven themselves to be we wouldn't be limited to the same impotent tactics that they are using.
Of course if they have any designs on our bodily fluids then they are toast. ;)
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Well they know that we'd never use that option.
On the bodily fluids, I suspect they're after Pamela Anderson lookalikes rather than hairy squaddies ... or is there something you're not telling us? ;)
Ravs
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Just like they know we're not going to brutally murder innocents or even terrorist prisoners. Then again, if the US is as evil as so many seem to think, why wouldn't we?
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Because they know you're going to 'civilise' them and subject them to endless re-runs of 'Peyton Place'
Ravs
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LOL, wouldn't even subject a democrat to that.
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Phew!
I always knew in that beneath that republican exterior beat a heart!
Ravs
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
You been spouting this one for a while. Never heard of such a thing. Prove it.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4917567
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Close but no cigar.
1. CIA are not soldiers
2. Nobody has proven anything other than that the guy is dead.
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
Close but no cigar.
1. CIA are not soldiers
2. Nobody has proven anything other than that the guy is dead.
Yeah, be probably beat himself to death while in US custody. By the same token, nobody has proven that Al-Quaida had a guy beheaded. :rolleyes:
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No Thrawn they didn't. But you have the guy convicted and sentenced already.
The Media reported that. The man accused of that was arrested just across the street from where I work. It will be interesting to see the trial outcome.
The other side of the story is the guy died of a heart attack in his cell with no else present. His heart condition is verified by the Doctor that did his physical exam when he was taken into custody and is backed up by his relatives who are witnesses for the defense.
Crumpp
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Since you obviously missed it the first time....
Your not the sharpest knife in the drawer are you Thrawn. What is it like being a dull tool?
Crumpp
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Crump - do you mind answering a question for me? Since from previous posts you appear to be serving in Iraq in the US military what would you say to an order that requires you to go into the local jail and start killing the Iraqi prisoners as "punishment" ?
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Yeah, be probably beat himself to death while in US custody. By the same token, nobody has proven that Al-Quaida had a guy beheaded. :rolleyes:
OK I know you aren't this stupid, so I assume you are trolling.
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
OK I know you aren't this stupid, so I assume you are trolling.
That thought the same thing when you posting about how what happened in Abu Ghraib was nothing worse than what happens in a fraternity hazing.
Close but no cigar.
1. CIA are not soldiers
2. Nobody has proven anything other than that the guy is dead.
Oh pardon me. He was beaten to death by agents of the US government.
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again, some would rather side with the enemy ...
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Are you saying that if one condemns the beating death of a prisoner one is siding with the enemy? Please. :rolleyes:
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[thought balloon]What we need to do is let everyone go.
Yeah, we let them go after we implant a chip in their cerebrum that allows us to satellite track them so we can download instructions from a KH-11 and have them kill their own before the chip explodes and any evidence that can lead back to Langley is destoyed.[/thought balloon]
did I just say that out loud? :eek:
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Are you saying that if one condemns the beating death of a prisoner one is siding with the enemy? Please. :rolleyes:
just your latest reason to despise America and thus side with her enemies
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For one thing,
The Excuse "I was under orders" does not fly in the United States Army. For over 10 years the US Army has required both legal and humanitarian training for it's soldiers.
Each ACTIVE DUTY soldier recieves a minimun of 4 hours instruction every 6 months in the Laws of Land Warfare. Each mission we undertake also has a legal brief AND their is a jag lawyer in every Battallion Staff. Additionally each soldier is required to take "humanitarian" training on how to report human rights violations every 6 months. We are lawyered to death!
A prisoner is in a protected status (non-combatant) and has surrendered their means to resist. It is not only murder to kill a prisoner but it is illegal to physically harm them. The only time we are allowed to use force is if a prisoner physically resist's instructions. We are under the same force continium as police officers.
If you are captured and attempt to escape. In the process kill a guard, IT IS MURDER. You will be charged upon your repatriation in the US Army. Whenever a former POW is debriefed the first thing that occurs is he read his miranda rights just to cover such an incident so an arrest can be made.
An order to kill/harm prisoners is an illegal one. Any US soldier should see his clear duty to not obey it AND have the issuer brought to justice.
Again let's wait for the trials and see the other side of the story before we hang every individual involved. The Reservist at the heart of this scandal do not recieve the training active duty does on the Legal/hunitartian issues. In order for the man on the ground to have the latitude to accomplish his mission only broad guidence is issued. Without a basis in fact, only in Hollywood movies, these ignorant part-timers seem to have went out on their own Field Training Exercise. Most of them have already pled guilty and are heading to the BIG HOUSE.
They damaged the whole war effort and stained the other 99.9 percent of the soldiers both active and reserve who are doing the right thing. Their is a HUGE difference both legally and morally between their violations and torturing/killing civilians like we see AQ doing. I for one am bewildered that their are folks who do not see that.
Of course, condemnations offered from a position of tranquility and safety with no alternative plan of action are not worth listening too.
Crumpp
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
OK I know you aren't this stupid, so I assume you are trolling.
I think that may be an incorrect assessment.
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Originally posted by Eagler
just your latest reason to despise America and thus side with her enemies
BS logic. You don't like oranges, therefore you like apples. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Thrawn
BS logic. You don't like oranges, therefore you like apples. :rolleyes:
No, not at all. When one jumps to comdemn the United States for taking pictures but fails to comdemn terrorists for beheading civilians people tend to form an opinion not unlike the one posted above.
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I feel really bad for our boys over in Iraq, I know "IF" I were there I would be courtmartialed just for using up so much ammo.
It is a real shame our soldiers have their hands tied behind their backs. I feel bad for the position our soldiers are in.
I had a guy come into my store last week, he wanted the word "Vietnam" embroidered over a jacket he had brought in that was a generic "veterans" satin jacket. When I gave it back to him done, and didn't charge him, he acually cried and said "Nobody EVER did anything like that for him." It was nothing for me , but seamed to be alot to him. When he thanked me, I told him it was I who should be thanking him. It really is a shame, even when they do their tour ( which is almost endless at this point), they return to a mixture of peoples emotions , some not so savory.
NUTTZ
Originally posted by AKIron
There will be a price to pay for murdering marines or soldiers horrifically on video. Their comptratiots will likely pay it when they attempt to surrender after a fierce fight.
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Really? I did not know this. You are saying "IF" I was captured , and killled an enemy guard while escaping I could be charged for murder by my own military? I thought it would be MY DUTY to try to escape. Maybe I just watched too many old war flicks.
NUTTZ
Originally posted by Crumpp
For one thing,
If you are captured and attempt to escape. In the process kill a guard, IT IS MURDER. You will be charged upon your repatriation in the US Army. Whenever a former POW is debriefed the first thing that occurs is he read his miranda rights just to cover such an incident so an arrest can be made.
Crumpp
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
No, not at all. When one jumps to comdemn the United States for taking pictures but fails to comdemn terrorists for beheading civilians people tend to form an opinion not unlike the one posted above.
When one tries to misrepresent a point and call beating someone to death "taking picutres" people tend to form an opinion of the poster. Unless you have reading comprehension you would see that I wasn't condeming the US for taking pictures, but for beating a prisoner to death.
Lack of a condemnation does mean approval. I haven't seen you post you don't like N'Sync in this thread, therefore you do? No it just mean you have chosen not to comment on it.
But for what it's worth, of course I find the beheadings morally repugnant. Hell I think they are evil. What I find interesting though is that people seem to have forgotten that neutrality is a ligetimate position for a country or person to take. Heck the War of 1812 was fought because the British and French didn't respect US neutrality in thier war.
I have enough presence of mind to find both the beheadings and the beating death wrong. It's not like I have to believe that because one is wrong the other has to be right.
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Thrawn, you've presented no evidence of the cause of that guy's death. For you to assume (with zero evidence) that the guy was beaten to death, but then question whether the VIDEOTAPED beheadings actually happened, that's what makes me question your intelligence and/or sincerity.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
When one tries to misrepresent a point and call beating someone to death "taking picutres" people tend to form an opinion of the poster. Unless you have reading comprehension you would see that I wasn't condeming the US for taking pictures, but for beating a prisoner to death.
So you form opinions of those who attempt to misrepresent events to make a point? You mean kinda like claiming that a prisoner was beaten to death without a single shread of any evidence?
Lack of a condemnation does mean approval. I haven't seen you post you don't like N'Sync in this thread, therefore you do? No it just mean you have chosen not to comment on it.
Thats because I LOVE N'SYNC! JC is HOT!
But for what it's worth, of course I find the beheadings morally repugnant. Hell I think they are evil. What I find interesting though is that people seem to have forgotten that neutrality is a ligetimate position for a country or person to take. Heck the War of 1812 was fought because the British and French didn't respect US neutrality in thier war.
[/b]
Neutrality is awesome if youre into playing both sides for your own advantage or lack the backbone to actually engage in any action that brings with it the possibility of failure.
Otherwise its pretty useless, IMO.
I have enough presence of mind to find both the beheadings and the beating death wrong. It's not like I have to believe that because one is wrong the other has to be right.
Ok, so again - and remembering your first paragraph hinting that one shouldnt misrepresent facts to prove points - I bet youve seen a few of those nifty little videos of the bad guys cutting off the heads of bound humans. Can you show me a video, a picture... or something other than your fantastic idea... that a prisoner was beat to death in a prison?
Aside from that - I dont think anyone has ever contested that the two 'wrongs' are mutually exclusive in terms of acceptability in your mind - they just require different levels of attention from you, thats all.
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Nuttz,
It is your duty to escape. Resistance with honor and a duty to continue to resist are clearly spelled out in the Code of Conduct every US soldier has to abide by.
However, when you are captured and have relinquished your "means to resist", which is legalese for your weapon, your legal status changes from a "combatant" to a "non-combatant". This is why it is perfectly legal to shoot at paratroopers in their parachutes but is a war crime to shoot a fighter pilot after he has bailed out.
Non-combatants have rights and protection under both international law and the Geneva Convention. Legally once you are a non-combatant only repatriation can restore your status as a combatant. Non-combatants must be fed, clothed, and sheltered IAW the basic living standards of the citizens of the capturing country. Non-combatants no longer have the right to use deadly force IAW the Rules of Engagement. They do have the right to self defense.
Attempting to escape does not change your status once you are a non-combatant. If you plan to kill a guard and carry it out, you have just committed MURDER. You can kill a guard ONLY in clear cut self defense. "He was going to recapture me" is NOT self defense.
Code of Conduct
I
I am an American, fighting in the forces which guard my country and our way of life. I am prepared to give my life in their defense.
II
I will never surrender of my own free will. If in command I will never surrender the members of my command while they still have the means to resist.
III
If I am captured, I will continue to resist by all means available. I will make every effort to escape and aid others to escape. I will accept neither parole nor special favors from the enemy.
IV
If I become a prisoner of war, I will keep faith with my fellow prisoners. I will give no information or take part in any action which might be harmful to my comrades. If I am senior, I will take command. If not, I will obey the lawful orders of those appointed over me and will back them up in every way.
V
When questioned, should I become a prisoner of war, I am required to give name, rank, service number, and date of birth. I will evade answering further questions to the utmost of my ability. I will make no oral or written statements disloyal to my country and its allies or harmful to their cause.
VI
I will never forget that I am an American, fighting for freedom, responsible for my actions, and dedicated to the principles which made my country free. I will trust in my God and in the United States of America.
Crumpp
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
Thrawn, you've presented no evidence of the cause of that guy's death. For you to assume (with zero evidence) that the guy was beaten to death,
Originally posted by Saurdaukar
You mean kinda like claiming that a prisoner was beaten to death without a single shread of any evidence?
No, not without a single shread of evidence. The autopsy revealed that the prison, who was left off the records, was severly beaten before he died. We know this happened sometime while he was under US care and control.
"In November, Frederick wrote, an Iraqi prisoner under the control of what the Abu Ghraib guards called “O.G.A.,” or other government agencies—that is, the C.I.A. and its paramilitary employees—was brought to his unit for questioning. “They stressed him out so bad that the man passed away. They put his body in a body bag and packed him in ice for approximately twenty-four hours in the shower. . . . The next day the medics came and put his body on a stretcher, placed a fake IV in his arm and took him away.” The dead Iraqi was never entered into the prison’s inmate-control system, Frederick recounted, “and therefore never had a number.”"
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact
And it's not the only case. From my first link.
"In a second case, the CIA is being investigated for the death of Iraqi Gen. Abed Hamed Mowhoush near the Syrian border, also last November. The CIA says he died several days after they questioned him.
A third CIA prisoner died last June in Afghanistan — also after a severe beating"
Originally posted by FUNKED1
but then question whether the VIDEOTAPED beheadings actually happened, that's what makes me question your intelligence and/or sincerity.
I wasn't questioning the whether it happened. I was comparing standards of evidence regarding who commited the crime. It seems that neither of you even question whether Al-Zarqawi and Al-Qaida beheaded Berg, (based on video where a masked man claims to be him, yet you don't think that agents of the US government beat a man to death in Abu Ghraib.
Originally posted by Saurdaukar
Neutrality is awesome if youre into playing both sides for your own advantage or lack the backbone to actually engage in any action that brings with it the possibility of failure.
Otherwise its pretty useless, IMO..
That's not the only reason why someone might be neutral. It might be that the situation has nothing to do with thier interests. And I wasn't talking about the utility of neutrality, but the right to it.
Can you show me a video, a picture... or something other than your fantastic idea... that a prisoner was beat to death in a prison?
I'm surprise you haven't seen this yet, or that you and funked never even heard of this incident. These pictures were orginally obtained by ABC news. I won't display them for obvious reasons.
http://www.antiwar.com/photos/perm/dead-iraqi2.jpg
http://www.antiwar.com/photos/perm/dead-iraqi1.jpg
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/wnt/Investigation/abu_ghraib_photos_040519.html
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Anti-War DOT COM!!!!!
:rofl :rofl :rofl
Ohh yeah, That is some unbiased reporting!! Just the facts Friday just the facts!! Hey it says here in "Pravda" that Communism will win the cold war.:rolleyes:
As for the New Yorker article, let's examine what it REALLY says:
As to autopsy reports - Sorry can't find any reference to an autopsy report at all. Much less one claiming anyone was beaten to death.
There are reference's to the two Iraqi's on the examining tables in the photo.
==============================================
"Two Iraqi faces that do appear in the photographs are those of dead men. There is the battered face of prisoner No. 153399, and the bloodied body of another prisoner, wrapped in cellophane and packed in ice. There is a photograph of an empty room, splattered with blood."
==============================================
The empty room spattered in blood is the morgue. Pretty Sinister Stuff.
==============================================
"A month later, General Karpinski was formally admonished and quietly suspended, and a major investigation into the Army’s prison system, authorized by Lieutenant General Ricardo S. Sanchez, the senior commander in Iraq, was under way."
==============================================
Gosh, Seems the Military was investigating the reports of abuse long before it hit the papers. Sure glad that reporter hopped in made it all public. The bad guys are pretty understanding about this sort of thing and won't take it out on any captives they have. You know How a Free and Democratic Society needs watching.
==============================================
“They stressed him out so bad that the man passed away. They put his body in a body bag and packed him in ice for approximately twenty-four hours in the shower. . . . "
==============================================
Stressed out is NOT beaten to death.
Again what we have here is a media frenzy over the actions of a few miscreants. One the Military was already investigating and taking action. It was not made public for the following reasons:
1. Concern for the Safety of those in Hostile captivity.
==============================================
"Similarly, Gary Myers, Frederick’s civilian attorney, told me that he would argue at the court-martial that culpability in the case extended far beyond his client. “I’m going to drag every involved intelligence officer and civilian contractor I can find into court,” he said. “Do you really believe the Army relieved a general officer because of six soldiers? Not a chance.”"
==============================================
With my paltry decade and a half of government service I would definately say without a doubt...
YES, the US Army would relieve a General over the actions of these six. It already did so once before this ever made the papers.
Glad we live in a free country with Freedom of Speech that can be exercised without regard to consequences or social responsibility. As long as papers get sold and the reporters politcs get through WHO cares about the truth! There is an election coming up!
As much as the extreme liberal left would like to make this out to be an Evil systematic problem perpetuated by GW Bush it is in fact an isolated incident and a huge blight on the other 99.9 percent of the folks out there doing the right thing. Many of them doing the right thing at extreme personal sacrifice.
Crumpp
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Originally posted by Crumpp
Anti-War DOT COM!!!!!
:rofl :rofl :rofl
Ohh yeah, That is some unbiased reporting!! Just the facts Friday just the facts!! Hey it says here in "Pravda" that Communism will win the cold war.:rolleyes:
You are trying to fit the facts into your paradigm instead of changing your world view to fit the facts. I clearly stated, "These pictures were orginally obtained by ABC news.". What's more I provide a link to the orginal ABC article which also provided the pictures. I used the anti-war.com site so those that are interested didn't have to wait for the ABC site to load and go through the slide show.
With my paltry decade and a half of government service I would definately say without a doubt...
You might want to inform the US military of this experience when you tell about their mistake in ruling, "Abd al-Jalil’s death a homicide from “blunt force injuries and asphyxia".
- Chris Hansen, “Profile: death in custody; investigation into death of Iraqi detainee Kareem Abdul Jaleel reveals more prison atrocities, NBC News Transcripts, May 23, 2004.
And it looks like it was soldiers after all.
"The Pentagon also said those who interrogated him included members of an elite special forces unit, some of the most highly trained personnel in the U.S. military."
- Chris Hansen, “Profile: death in custody; investigation into death of Iraqi detainee Kareem Abdul Jaleel reveals more prison atrocities, NBC News Transcripts, May 23, 2004.
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2004/usa0604/5.htm#_ftn81
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Originally posted by muckmaw
Terrorists wove taken an American Marine Hostage and threaten to kill him have demanded the release of prisoners in Iraqi jails.
I know we have to take the high road here, and I don;t necessarily agree with it.
But what if we sent them a video of the prisoners they want released with guns to THEIR heads.
Kill your prisoners, and we kill ours.
I already know what some of you are going to say....
The high road sux sometimes.
Like Captain Wesley Platt USMC said upon honroing Major Devereux's agreed surrender on Wake Island. Platt set his .45 down with tears streaming down his face "Major, do you know what you are asking us to do?" "Marines don't surrender, Major let us die right here. All of this was said within earshot of Japanese who were escorting Devereux around the island.
I say this, pull out of Iraq. If not, at least save the region by dropping Fuel to Air explosives, Nukes would to too much to that oil over there.
Karaya
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Like Captain Wesley Platt USMC said upon honroing Major Devereux's agreed surrender on Wake Island. Platt set his .45 down with tears streaming down his face "Major, do you know what you are asking us to do?" "Marines don't surrender, Major let us die right here. All of this was said within earshot of Japanese who were escorting Devereux around the island.
Marines don't ever surrender. It's just something you don't do. I would fight to my last breath. Out of ammo? Throw rocks or something. I cannot imagine how you would get into a situation where you would get captured. I would take as many of them with me when I went down. Almost all of us had hand grenades. Can't imagine why you wouldn't be able to take a couple with you.
Just my two cents.
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That's the insidious thing about propaganda Thrawn.
It is all the truth and uses the facts. So, what is really going on in the world?
1. The United States is the great Satan and deserves Sept 11th. Only wants to estabilish an empire and truly is a major violator of Human Rights. Al-Queada has it right and only wants to live in peace with their neighbors.
2. The United States was maliciously attacked and THOUSANDS of innocent civilians from around the world were killed to advance some obscure political agenda. Now the US will no longer sit back but is taking the fight to the source. The United States is one of the worlds premier democracies and really does stand for Freedom and Justice For All.
Empire building or self-defense?
Lets examine the Human Rights Watch report:
==============================================
Capt. Carolyn A. Wood, who oversaw interrogations at the Bagram detention center in Afghanistan where two prisoners died, apparently prepared the document titled “Interrogation Rules of Engagement” that was posted at Abu Ghraib. According to the document, certain interrogation methods could be undertaken, but only if the “CG’s” (Sanchez’s) approval was sought and obtained in writing. Depending on their actual application, these methods would violate the Geneva Conventions prohibitions against abusive and coercive treatment of detainees. They included:
Change of scenery down (moving to a more barren cell)
Dietary manipulation
Environmental manipulation
Sleep adjustment (reverse schedule)
Isolation for longer than 30 days
Presence of military working dogs
Sleep management (72 hours maximum)
Sensory deprivation (72 hours maximum)
Stress positions (no longer than 45 minutes)
The document also cautions that detainees “will NEVER be touched in a malicious or unwanted manner” and that the Geneva Conventions apply in Iraq.
==============================================
Change of Scenery - No different than Isolation cells in a civilian prison
Dietary Manipulation - Ok, so we don't feed them their favorite foods or pass out a Menu. Their diet is monitored by a doctor and is healthy. Can the bad guys make the same claim? Course they probably don't have to worry, most folks don't eat that much without a head.
Environmental manipulation - Maybe we can install thermostats in every prisoner's room? It's probably better to just shoot them when they don't obey the rules rather than just taking away their blankie. I wonder if Pfc Keith Maulpin was cold as he knelt over the shallow grave he just dug before they put a bullet through the back of his skull?
Sleep adjustment - Well our folks are working 24/7 to bring this conflict to and end as quick as possible. Sorry if the night shift has to wake few up. The US should adjust to the prisoners sleep schedule and ensure they all get a tasty mint on their pillows in the morning.
Isolation for longer than 30 days - Yeah we should just put the hard core bad guys in with the poor schmucks who got lied too and just thought they were protecting their families. That way they can organize and get even more people hurt.
Presence of Military Dogs - Same as Police dogs you will find at any US civilian prison. Should we just shoot them when they become combative and not use non-lethal means? Dogs are scary you know.
Sleep management (72 hours maximum)
Sensory deprivation (72 hours maximum)
Stress positions (no longer than 45 minutes) - Techniques reserved for the hard core bad guys. Your right it is wrong to use them. We should say "pretty pretty please" and get the information because these guys are the very definition of cordiality.
Notice the key phrase "Depending on their actual application, these methods would violate the Geneva Conventions"
AND notice the legal Direct Order, which requires every service member to obey it.
General Sanchez ORDERS ARE PRISONERS, “will NEVER be touched in a malicious or unwanted manner” and that the Geneva Conventions apply in Iraq.
The penalties for disobeying a direct order go anywhere from up to 20 years in prison to death in wartime.
Crumpp
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Originally posted by Thrawn
You might want to inform the US military of this experience when you tell about their mistake in ruling, "Abd al-Jalil’s death a homicide from “blunt force injuries and asphyxia".
- Chris Hansen, “Profile: death in custody; investigation into death of Iraqi detainee Kareem Abdul Jaleel reveals more prison atrocities, NBC News Transcripts, May 23, 2004.
And it looks like it was soldiers after all.
"The Pentagon also said those who interrogated him included members of an elite special forces unit, some of the most highly trained personnel in the U.S. military."
- Chris Hansen, “Profile: death in custody; investigation into death of Iraqi detainee Kareem Abdul Jaleel reveals more prison atrocities, NBC News Transcripts, May 23, 2004.
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2004/usa0604/5.htm#_ftn81
Oooh nice bait and switch. We were specifically talking about Abu Gharib. Jaleel/Jalil was never in that prison. You still have not shown that anything worse than fraternity hazing pranks went on at Abu Gharib.
"You are trying to fit the facts into your paradigm instead of changing your world view to fit the facts."
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
"You are trying to fit the facts into your paradigm instead of changing your world view to fit the facts."
Thats a good line (and applicable) - who is it from?
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
Oooh nice bait and switch. We were specifically talking about Abu Gharib. Jaleel/Jalil was never in that prison.
You are trying to fit the facts into your paradigm instead of changing your world view to fit the facts."
Quite right. My apologies for mixing up the names. I can only hope you believe that it wasn't intentional, especially in light of two peoples deaths being ruled having the same cause.
"- Manadel Al-Jamadi, who was being held at Abu Ghraib, the Iraqi prison in which the well-known abuse of prisoners took place. He died on November 4, 2003, of "blunt force injuries complicated by compromised respiration," doctors said."
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/05/22/1085176035220.html?from=storylhs&oneclick=true
Originally posted by Crumpp
Lets examine the Human Rights Watch report:
If you wanted to examine the report, why did you skip over this?
-Punching, slapping and kicking detainees; jumping on their naked feet;
-Videotaping and photographing naked male and female detainees;
-Forcibly arranging detainees in various sexually explicit positions for photographing;
-Forcing groups of male detainees to masturbate themselves while being photographed and videotaped;
-Arranging naked detainees in a pile and then jumping on them;
Positioning a naked detainee on a box, with a sandbag on his head, and attaching wires to his fingers, toes and noodle to simulate electric torture;
-Writing “I am a Rapist” (sic) on the leg of a detainee alleged to have forcibly raped a 15-year-old fellow detainee, and then photographing him naked;
-Placing a dog chain or strap around a naked detainee’s neck and having a female soldier pose with him for a picture;
-A male military police guard having sex with a female detainee;72
-Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees;
-Threatening detainees with a loaded 9-mm pistol;
-Pouring cold water on naked detainees;
-Beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair;
-Threatening male detainees with rape;
-Allowing a military police guard to stitch the wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed against the wall in his cell;
Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick;
-Using military working dogs (without muzzles) to frighten and intimidate detainees with threats of attack, and in at least one case biting and severely injuring a detainee;
-Forcing detainees to remove their clothing and keeping them naked for several days at a time;
-Forcing naked male detainees to wear women’s underwear;
-Taking pictures of dead Iraqi detainees.
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Nobody is denying these few soldiers went way over and beyond the Guidence put out. They will pay the price.
You are making some false claims though without the full facts at hand based just off what you have read from such sources as "Anti-War.com".
1. There is no evidence proving any US servicemember BEAT any prisoner to death. We are going to have to wait for the legal process of a Democracy to run it's course.
2. You are attempting to paint an incidence of Abuse as a policy of abuse.
The media is not only biased but much of the time flat out wrong. Least that's been my experience being involved in several headline making events. Remember Reporters are just one person writing about an event based on second and third hand information. Just because it's in print does not make it true.
Just ask yourself what makes more sense? Do you really believe all Military and Government personnel are goose-stepping Nazi's who enjoy war and love inflicting pain?
Or is it that the vast majority of those in the service are good folks who have the courage of their convictions and really believe in Justice and Liberty for All?
Here is a good quote that is just as applicable today as it was in Teddy's time:
==============================================
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, and comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.
==============================================
http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/3745/tr.html
Crumpp
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-Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees;
:rofl - Chemlights are non-toxic. We used to load squirt guns with it when I was a young private. Turn out the lights and have squirt gun fights in the barracks. The bad guys didn't know that though but thanks to the media they do now.
Crumpp
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Why argue with Thrawn? He already has proven his anti-American hatred that will forever prevent him from being objective.
I guess it stems from both his mental instability and having to live in a militarily impotent country.
Hoping some day he gets the therapy/counseling he needs.
First Iraq, then Canada!
:rofl
dago
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Originally posted by Crumpp
-Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees;
:rofl - Chemlights are non-toxic. We used to load squirt guns with it when I was a young private. Turn out the lights and have squirt gun fights in the barracks. The bad guys didn't know that though but thanks to the media they do now.
Crumpp
Now give us the neat anecdote where you stuck these lights up eachother's arses and had a good laugh about it. :)
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:rofl :rofl :rofl
That's good Nash! Remember the US Army is don't ask don't tell...
:p
Dago bro,
It is a Democracy and he is in entitled to his opinion no matter how outlandish a the conspiracy theory! As long as you don't get in the way of others folks pursuit of happiness he can spout whatever drivel he wants.
On the other hand....
Maybe South Park had it right!! Invade Canada NOW!!:aok
Crumpp
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Originally posted by Crumpp
1. There is no evidence proving any US servicemember BEAT any prisoner to death. We are going to have to wait for the legal process of a Democracy to run it's course.
According the Navy Seals and Delta force the victim didn't have any wounds when he was turned over to the CIA. The CIA said there were, one of them is lying. The medical examiner determined that he died of "blunt force injuries complicated by compromised respiration,". This occured in prison where, according to Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba's report, interagators: punched, slapped, kicked, and beat the detainees with broomsticks and chairs. There is enough evidence for the US military to press charges. I think based on this information it's safe to say he was beaten to death, unless you have a more plausible explanation.
2. You are attempting to paint an incidence of Abuse as a policy of abuse.
I'm not even touching that issue. What I'm attempting to demonstrate is that this happened. And it's a far cry from a "hazing ritual".
Do you really believe all Military and Government personnel are goose-stepping Nazi's who enjoy war and love inflicting pain?
Not at all.
Or is it that the vast majority of those in the service are good folks who have the courage of their convictions and really believe in Justice and Liberty for All?
I'm sure they are.
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better.
I think it's ludicrous to try and mariginalise these incidents, as "stumbling". "Oops, I beat a man to death, could have happened to anyone.". These relatively few people certainly aren't good folk, nor do they really believe in Justice and Liberty for all.
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Aboot... SKATE!
Gloves.... OFF!
Hockey sticks at the ready!!!
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No these very few folks are not good people and will pay the price. Some of them already have plead guilty and are in prison NOW. What do you want the US to do with the others? Rush them to the nearest tree and hang them? They are innocent until PROVEN guilty and entitled to due process.
You keep claiming that there is some medical evidence on that one case. Please produce it.
I saw arrest's being made on that one. That is definately NOT the story circulating in the community. I think you better wait on the trial on that one and not hang folks prematurely. The doctor who examined him and the dead mans family are testifying for the defense.
Crumpp
Oops, No need for the Hockey Stick Nash :eek:
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==============================================
I think it's ludicrous to try and mariginalise these incidents, as "stumbling". "Oops, I beat a man to death, could have happened to anyone.". These relatively few people certainly aren't good folk, nor do they really believe in Justice and Liberty for all.
==============================================
The quote from Roosevelt is generalization. More of a philosphy for life. It's interesting that you took it as a specific answer to these events.
Go ahead and tell us what you think the US should do now? Do you think we have lost legitimacy in Iraq? Are you one of those who think we never had legitimacy in Iraq? Do you think the world would have been safer place with Saddam in power and an area the size of Rhode Island under the control of Al-Queada on the Iraqi / Iran border?
Why do you think the media does not print the truth about the bad guys we are encountering? The majority of them are not Iraqi's or Afghani's in either country. Most of them are Saudi's, Jordanians, Chechen's, and other Arabs.
Crumpp
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Originally posted by Crumpp
You keep claiming that there is some medical evidence on that one case. Please produce it.
Crumpp, you were in the military right? Can you please tell me who determines cause of death in the military?
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Depends.
Only a Doctor can determine that a death has occurred. One of the guys in my unit took a bullet in the back of the head in an ambush. Blew his whole face off. Our Medic did not pronounce him dead and called his vital signs in and we medevac'd him. The Unit Medically retired him before the bird landed and a doctor pronounced him dead. His wife and kids get more benefits that way. He was good man, and a good friend.
IF the family wants and autopsy then the body will be sent to Walter Reed and one is performed. Usually these are not detailed autopsy's but general. Do you know the difference? Not to insult your intelligence but a general autopsy is about the same as cleaning a fish. The body is opened and the organs given a cursory examination. Certain organs are weighed and a couple of tissue samples are taken and checked out. Whole process takes about 10 minutes. A detailed Autopsy is a whole different ball game. It can take days and is extremely expensive in lab time.
If no autopsy is requested then the attending physician's Medical report of Death will be the Examination and the Doctor will list what he believes to be cause of death.
For a bad guy then the nearest Medical Aid facility might perform it IF one was even ordered. Usually it will be an examination and not an actual autopsy. I will check and confirm this with the surgeon at work. I do know we photograph, DNA sample, and fingerprint every bad guy we kill to ensure they are in fact a bad guy.
Crumpp
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Thank you for your explanation. I think I understand what you are saying. Do you know if the situation is different if criminal malfeasance is suspected?
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Yes If criminal negligence was suspected the yes it would be different.
It's hard to say in this case. The Military was already investigating these incidents based on several soldiers complaints. So it is entirely possible that an autopsy was perfromed.
I do know the Doctor in the case you refer to is testifying for the defense. The man who was supposedly beaten to death had a heart condition and died of a heart attack.
I suspect many of the "beatings" will turn out to be capture wounds if they actually did an autopsy. It's been my experience that PUC's are generally cooperative in the first few minutes of giving up. After that they begin to "have second thoughts" when the hood and cuffs come out. It's understandable, it must be frightening especially when you believe some of the utter lies about the West that they do. Anyway sometimes that's when the fight breaks out.
Crumpp