Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Shuckins on June 30, 2004, 08:54:48 AM
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What really happened in that final deadly combat?
The various accounts of that event I've read over the years state the following possibilities.
1. MacGuire and his wingmen were jumped at low level. Their fighters were heavily loaded with ordinance and fuel. MacGuire pulled into a high-g turn to go to the aid of his wingman, stalled, and dropped into the jungle.
2. MacGuire overstressed his heavily loaded aircraft in that high-speed turn, causing structural failure and a subsequent fatal crash.
3. MacGuire made a habit of learning all the wrong lessons: i.e., constantly entering into dogfights with more agile aircraft. Against Japanese pilots with less training he could get away with this. However, in his last combat, he and his wingman got into a low-level affair with two Japanese "old hands," and paid the price. The wingman was shot down and MacGuire spun in trying to dogfight with them.
Anyone have any information to shed light on this?
Regards, Shuckins/Leggern
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he got greedy thats all there is to it. he broke all his own rules because he thought he made the rules.
he already asked for an extension of his tour and time was running out for him to beat bongs score.
he had his eye on the prize when he lead his 4 p38s down in on 1 ki43 in an overcast cloudy mess that forced the fight to the deck.
"keep the drop tanks on" he thought "there is only 1 ki43 and I need two" this was probably one of the last coherent thoughts in his mind before the adrenalin of combat tookover and they started trying to outmaneuver an ace pilot in a ki43 with P-38L's on the deck in a turnfight.
no one knows for sure if the ki84 that showed up (also flown by an ace) killed macguire or if he snapped out of a turn trying to do some drastic evasive or to cover his wingman.
but the statistics show 1 ki43 landed damaged (pilot survived), 1 ki84 crash landed (pilot killed by natives)
2 P-38L's destroyed (very experienced pilots both killed)
2 P-38L's damaged landed (less experienced pilots flying wingman to the leaders)
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Savage or Widewing had posted an updated investigation report that indicates that McGuire died from his plane entering into a vicious snap roll and spun in and being too low to the deck to recover, he crashed and burned. Coupled with flying in an unfamiliar P-38 and disgregarding his own dicta on combat with drop tanks, led to disaster.
In the P-38, if you throttle back one engine and then want to throttle it back up, you have to throttle back on the other engine and advance them both together. If this isn't done, the P-38 had a tendency to enter into a violent spin on the side of the throttled down engine. Usually fatal below 5,000 feet. Doing this, with drop tanks onboard which raised the stall speed and in the middle of a high G turn, it's very easy to see how McGuire could have gotten into a spin and crashed. The survivor's testimony seems to back up this scenario as one of them reported the last thing he heard was McGurie gunning his engine a few seconds before he disappeared.
I also seem to recall that when McGuire's plane was finally found, it didn't show any evidence of structural failure or severe enough battle damage that would have caused it to crash.
ack-ack
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McGuire was flying another 475th FG Aces plane the day he went down. I was #112 of Fred Champlin
As mentioned above, the general consensus was the McGuire tried to turn in to save another pilot and because of the added weight of the drop tanks he had failed to drop, he snapped inverted and went into the trees below before he could recover.
Scan is of the P38 McGuire was flying that day.
Dan/Slack
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/169_1088631819_112.jpg)
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Ive been surprised with the amount of people that say McGuire never flew the P-38L. Where did you get your info Fester?
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Originally posted by Slash27
Ive been surprised with the amount of people that say McGuire never flew the P-38L. Where did you get your info Fester?
He must have flown an L if he died in one.
Dan/Slack
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I don't see why they say he didn't fly the L model...just look at any Pudgy pictures.
ack-ack
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I don't see why they say he didn't fly the L model...just look at any Pudgy pictures.
Kinda what I was thinking, but you know how some of the "experts" in here are.
He must have flown an L if he died in one.
See above.
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The roster:
Major Thomas B McGuire Jr.
Major Jack Rittmayer
Captain Edwin Weaver
Lt Douglas Thropp.
Elements were McGuire Weaver and Rittmayer Thropp.
Before the engagement, Rittmayer reported engine trouble and lagged back, starting to catch up when the first plane was spotted. Thropp has accused Rittmayer of faking the engine trouble.
First, the Japanese plane first spotted was flown by a pilot named Sugimoto, and flew directly toward and under the group.
It did not turn immediately and attack, but continued away.
Weaver wanted to drop tanks and go get it, but McGuire ordered them to hold tanks and continue.
The second Japanese pilot, Fukuda, was landing, but saw Sugimoto might be in trouble, and it is Fukuda that made the attack.
Fukuda saddled up on Weaver, and Weaver called out for help. McGuire was pulling around for the shot, and his plane shuddered, snap rolled, and spun in. Weaver said he heard the engines on McGuire's plane throttle back and then throttle up. McGuire's plane was not struck by enemy fire according to Weaver, who was the only surviving pilot close to McGuire.
Sugimoto returned to the fight, and shot up Thropp's plane, damaging the turbocharger on one side. Thropp egressed.
Fukuda made a head on pass at Rittmayer, and evidently killed Rittmayer with several shots to the cockpit. Fukuda says he saw what appeared to be a scarlet scarf on the pilot, Rittmayer wore no scarf, it is believed he was hit in the neck and possibly the head and killed outright. His plane crashed and exploded inthe jungle near a village, not far from where McGuire went down.
Rittmayer was seen to have scored hits on Sugimoto, and Weaver thought he hit Sugimoto as well. Sugimoto crashed in the jungle and is believe to have been killed by Philipino guerillas. He died of at least six gunshot wounds to the chest.
Fukuda landed at his base.
Weaver and Thropp became seperated, Thropp was very angry that Weaver did not find him and join up for the flight home. The CO, Mac MacDonald was very angry upon being told that both McGuire and Rittmayer "were down and burning", and demanded to "know what the Hell happened".
Weaver's account of the fight is generally accepted as what happened, and most of what Fukuda says agrees with it. Thropp disagrees, and takes exception to Weaver's report. However, most evidence supports Weaver's account.
The Philipinos recovered McGuire's body, and hid it from the Japanese, he was buried on a farm near the crash site. A subsequent autopsy was performed when his remains were recovered. He was indentified by his class ring. There was no evidence of gunshot wounds. McGuire was killed by massive head trauma and traumatic amputation of both arms. The head wound was not consistent with a gunshot wound.
From Weaver's account, and eyewitness accounts from Philipinos who saw the crash, along with what is known about McGuire, it is believed that McGuire simply chopped the throttle on both engines, or one, to sharply increase his turn, and when the plane shuddered and reached the stall point, he advanced the throttles and only one engine responded. Upon discussing what is known and eyewitness accounts with veteran P-38 pilots, all with considerable combat time, it is believed that one engine failed to respond, and the assymetric application of power caused the plane to snap roll inverted, with less than 1500 feet to recover, McGuire never had a chance. Every P-38 pilot involved said the same thing. The only way you snap roll a P-38 inverted like that is assymetric power.
The actual crash site has been located, and pieces of the plane identified. There was not enough of the plane left to determine whether structural failure due to combat damage or overstress caused the crash. It crashed into a creekbed in a ravine at around 300 MPH. However, the project was halted in September of 2001, possibly forever. The former Air Force fighter pilot who was running the show has been heavily involved with private contract flight for the military operations. He is not likely to have any free time to devote to the project in the foreseeable future. Also, with the delay, any funding that was in place is now no longer available.
McGuire was not nearly so greedy as you might think. He actually extended his tour because he felt he could not leave his men and his unit voluntarily. He wanted badly to go home, he'd barely gotten to know his wife, and missed her terribly. He felt the only way for him to go home he could accept was if he were to beat Bong's score and be forced to go home. He had been grounded because they did not want him to beat Bong before Bong finished all of his bond and publicity tours.
Oh, he pretty much did make the rules. It was McGuire who wrote the fighter doctrine of the theater, and in fact he wrote the hand book given to the new pilots when they arrived.
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Hey Savage, Where'd you get your info? I've got the Stanaway history of the 475th plus all his other 38 stuff that includes lots on McGuire but much of what you posted isn't there, in terms of what happened to Rittmeyer ie; the red scarf, or the recovery of McGuire's body, autopsy etc.
I know there is a biography of McGuire out there that I don't have. Is that were the info was? Or is there another source?
Dan/Slack
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Maybe his flaps retracted.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Maybe his flaps retracted.
stupid....
ack-ack
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I've read that between Richard Bong and Thomas McGuire, McGuire was the true leader and Bong was the greedy one.
I got stuck at an AFB for several hours during a business trip. The Terminal was named after Thomas McGuire and had a museum inside. It was pretty interesting but that was one of things that struck me. They had a letter from one of the guys that flew with both of them. Said basically that Bong was more out for himself and was not big into teaching the other guys and McGuire was all about taking care of other folks.
Crumpp
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Originally posted by Guppy35
Hey Savage, Where'd you get your info? I've got the Stanaway history of the 475th plus all his other 38 stuff that includes lots on McGuire but much of what you posted isn't there, in terms of what happened to Rittmeyer ie; the red scarf, or the recovery of McGuire's body, autopsy etc.
I know there is a biography of McGuire out there that I don't have. Is that were the info was? Or is there another source?
Dan/Slack
Dan,
Much of it comes from the project I was involved with that I spoke of. Also, some did come from "The Last Great Ace", the biography. As well as some stuff from the various sites on the Internet that had info we could verify. There was some stuff we got indirectly from Hal Gray as well. Mason actually interviewed Thropp just a few years ago, and talked to Fukuda in Japan. He spoke with the man who recovered McGuire from the wreckage and hid his body from the Japanese, at great risk to himself. Also, Mac spoke with Mason before his death a couple of years ago. There would be more there, but Mac was not well, and was not happy with the fact that McGuire was so much the focus of research on the group.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Maybe his flaps retracted.
That was very juvenile. And I thought beneath you. I guess my respect for you was totally without merit.
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Originally posted by Crumpp
I've read that between Richard Bong and Thomas McGuire, McGuire was the true leader and Bong was the greedy one.
I got stuck at an AFB for several hours during a business trip. The Terminal was named after Thomas McGuire and had a museum inside. It was pretty interesting but that was one of things that struck me. They had a letter from one of the guys that flew with both of them. Said basically that Bong was more out for himself and was not big into teaching the other guys and McGuire was all about taking care of other folks.
Crumpp
Bong was a very selfless individual, and a very reserved person. Until he climbed into a P-38. He actually came back for what amounted to a second tour just to teach tactics and gunnery. He felt a duty to the men of his unit as well. That assessment of Bong is not really valid.
The writings of one or two should not be used to judge a person. For example Thropp was extremely bitter and angry, and was very critical of Weaver. He claimed at one point he thought that Fukuda got McGuire, but it turned out he was not even close enough to see what actually happened. Besides, Fukuda was behind Weaver shooting at him, and McGuire was trying to turn inside Fukuda and get him. It would be very difficult for Fukuda to have shot at McGuire if you think about it.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Maybe his flaps retracted.
rotlf :rofl :rofl
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Why does the above post not surprise me. Must be the source.:rolleyes:
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Take it easy man !
Have you an idea of the number of threads about autoretract ? (and some threads are not indexed anymore in the BBS)
Tthe crusade on autoretract was killed by HT himself some 2 year ago see yourself :
Originally posted by hitech
No GUNERZER it is not true. 2 Questions are being mixed with 1 answere.
On the auto retract flaps question, it seems to me that everone who wants to get rid of auto retract flaps wan'ts flaps at faster speeds. If we were to get rid of the auto retract flaps the only difference would be ,instead of retracting the flap it would be damaged and unsible at the same speed they auto retract now.
The other questions is on a specific planes flap speed, they are set on a per plane basis with the data we have availble.
HiTech
And btw I didn't forget how open minded you are when you're not preaching for your how church.
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well its a shame neither one survived.
and it seems somthing less than coincidental that both top aces died in aircraft with engine problems occuring at the worst possible time.
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Straffo, I've been here for well over 3 years, I know all about the auto retract issue. I lurked before I even registered for several months.
It does not excuse the stupidity and arrogance required to make a joke about the death of one of the greatest fighter pilots who ever flew.
Auto retract is a joke.
The death of Major Thomas B. McGuire is not.
I remember your childish arrogance in the discussion you speak of. Yes, those screaming little temper tantrums you threw about fuel. People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw rocks.
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Originally posted by Citabria
well its a shame neither one survived.
and it seems somthing less than coincidental that both top aces died in aircraft with engine problems occuring at the worst possible time.
Yes, it is.
And no it isn't. Pure coincidence.
The engine explosion that killed Bong would have killed him where ever he was so long as he was in the plane. I read a report from a guy who was there. He heard the jet engine come apart, had heard it before, and knew what was going to happen. The explosion killed Bong, he was dead instantly.
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If he have been so great he wouldn't have broke his own rule and perhaps survived.
Bong is certainly a better example of what an ace is.
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Maybe his flaps retracted
:rofl :rofl :rofl
Crumpp
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Bong is certainly a better example of what an ace is.
What would the French know about "aces" ?
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What is your point here ?
Check Marin la Meslée for exemple
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/frenchaces/
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I felt like you were being as bellybutton just to be an bellybutton so I was doing the same.
to your French aces.
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He's French, they come across that way whether they mean it or not!
:p
Crumpp
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Nope , it's just because I'm still imature even being 34 and I love nononsense jokes.
I didn't want to bash McGuire , I can imagine easily his death was not a good news for his familly.
I thought it was a silly funny joke.
I think Bong is a better example of what an ace is.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Dan,
Much of it comes from the project I was involved with that I spoke of. Also, some did come from "The Last Great Ace", the biography. As well as some stuff from the various sites on the Internet that had info we could verify. There was some stuff we got indirectly from Hal Gray as well. Mason actually interviewed Thropp just a few years ago, and talked to Fukuda in Japan. He spoke with the man who recovered McGuire from the wreckage and hid his body from the Japanese, at great risk to himself. Also, Mac spoke with Mason before his death a couple of years ago. There would be more there, but Mac was not well, and was not happy with the fact that McGuire was so much the focus of research on the group.
Thanks Savage. Some interesting stuff to be sure.
My impression of McGuire from the stuff I've read was he was one of those love em or hate em guys. Quick to anger with little tolerance for mistakes as well as being driven to be the best of the best.
Clearly he could lead, but it also seems clear his style grated on a lot of people.
Dan/Slack
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How and when did Bong die?
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Originally posted by straffo
If he have been so great he wouldn't have broke his own rule and perhaps survived.
You know, that's really pathetic. You can't contribute anything intelligent or meaningful to this thread so you have to bash on a war hero. Just like your flying skills, very sad.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Maybe his flaps retracted.
:rofl
on a for real note he got greedy and paid for it with his life and a other i see that as a very dumb thing on his part
you can spin it anway you want but the fact is that what he did was wrong and its a shame he had to take a other with him
was he a great ace yes but his life book ended with that dumb mission and a other life
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Originally posted by Angus
How and when did Bong die?
He died on August 6th, 1945 test flying the Lockheed P-80 Shooting Star. He was 24 years old at the time of his death.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Angus
How and when did Bong die?
Dick Bong was intrigued by the new jet fighter and enthusiastic about his assignment. On August 6, 1945 (the day the Enola Gay dropped an atomic bomb on Hiroshima) Dick Bong was killed when the P-80 he was testing stalled on takeoff and he bailed out at low altitude. His body, partially wrapped in the shrouds of his parachute, was found 100 feet from the plane's jet engine. On 8 August 1945 he was burried in the Poplar cemetary, Poplar, Wisconsin.
from http://usfighter.tripod.com/bong.htm
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
You know, that's really pathetic. You can't contribute anything intelligent or meaningful to this thread so you have to bash on a war hero. Just like your flying skills, very sad.
ack-ack
Wan't to duel ?
muahahah :)
Seek professionnal help for your inflated ego first.
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Originally posted by straffo
Wan't to duel ?
muahahah :)
Seek professionnal help for your inflated ego first.
why waste my time? you wouldn't last more than half a turn on merge.
ack-ack
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The only time we met you head on me when I was nursing my typhoon having a lost wingtip ...
Next you screamed on open channel I was a HO potato...
It pictured you and your spirit perfectly I don't want to know more.
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on a for real note he got greedy and paid for it with his life and a other i see that as a very dumb thing on his part
you can spin it anway you want but the fact is that what he did was wrong and its a shame he had to take a other with him
was he a great ace yes but his life book ended with that dumb mission and a other life
And maybe thats what happens to AH2 P-38 pilots too, when they rely too much on flaps.
>End Hijack<
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Originally posted by Kweassa
>End Hijack<
If only it were that easy lol
-Sik
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TY for the Bong (and others) link Ack Ack.
Always a tragic side, and reminds one how close to death those guys used to live.
Well, Cheers to their memory.
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Originally posted by Angus
TY for the Bong (and others) link Ack Ack.
Always a tragic side, and reminds one how close to death those guys used to live.
Well, Cheers to their memory.
It amazes me how young Bong was when he died. At 24 I was smoking bongs and playing AW and wondering which party to go to that night.
ack-ack
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Different war, but still
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWfonck.htm
Originally posted by Slash27
Bong is certainly a better example of what an ace is.
What would the French know about "aces" ?