Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: mauser on November 22, 2000, 02:37:00 AM
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Has anyone else read the Dec 2000 issue of Wings magazine? It is devoted to an article by Joe Mizrahi on the Luftwaffe, entitled "The Face Of The Luftwaffe." It was pretty interesting reading as it touched on the changing fortunes of the Luftwaffe as the war progressed and some of the reasons why. Not having much experience with aviation references, anyone know how credible this article is? Anyway, it seemed to me that it explained pretty well why they (fortunately) lost. The RLM/Nazi high command basically had their heads up their.. somewheres... and made a whole lot of bad decisions, of course fortunately for us. For one thing, they didn't really build any great strategic bombers... in AH we have the JU-88 which was an excellent multirole aircraft. But for buffing purposes, not much beats the lanc for payload and the b17g for self-defense. Hm.. I sorta liken it to automobiles... I'm partial to German cars (can afford only a VW), but if I needed to buy a truck, I'd buy a US made truck. Likewise, I like flying the 190, but if I needed to lug around some heavy stuff into a hot area...
Back to history, as for the bad guys losing because they aren't very smart or they have too large an ego, history has shown us that isn't always the case unfortunately. I hope the ones who are supposed to lead our country don't get too overconfident b/c that'll only lead to trouble.
mauser
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Wings Mag about 3 years back had an artical on the politics of the 109 Vs. the 190 It was a great read. Politics ( and payoffs) play an important role in Many huge manufacturing and military contracts,,, heheh, "Business as usual" cuts threw all time and social barriers.
NUTTZ
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Hmmm... I purchased one issue of WINGS on bomber defensive guns, and while the information presented was good, it seemed to be very pro-US. Probably just the author of that article I guess?
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Without sounding like I favour one side or the other...
The axis powers lost the war for 3 reasons
1. Ego which lead to poor strategic decisions
2. Bad luck (especially with regard to the Battle at Midway and the Battle of Britain)
3. The overwhelming war machine that was and is the United States of America (Industry).
Having factories without fear of bomber attack at your disposal does help bring a decisive end to a conflict. Machines however do not fight and win wars, men do.
The fact that millions fought and lost their lives in this horrific conflict should not go unremembered. There were heros on both sides of this conflict. Most fought for theirs lives and not just for their political beleifs. This also should not be forgotten.
Thats enough of the history lesson.
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Ahh, where to start...
First, Germany did not start the Second World War. Allies did. Germany was never ready for it.
Germany was tricked by Russians to invade Poland. Hitled did not believe that England and France would declare war but Stalin knew that for sure. Stalin needed another world war and was pushing Hitler towards it. He expected to "liberate" Europe from Hitler. Luckily for us Hitler realized his plans and Stalin could only "liberate" half of Europe.
Hitler just expected to easily capture Poland, whose army was arranged for offence, not defence and for that reason vulnerable. Even then his offencive in Poland ground to a halt because of lack of supplies/ammunition and was only saved by russians hitting poles in the back.
Second, Germany did not have strategic bombers for the same reason Brits did not have tactical bombers - both were designing for the previous war from which they drew opposite and wrong conclusions.
Brits were terrified by a few bombs dropped by a few German bombers and zeppelins during the WWI. They were really scared what thousands of advanced bombers could do and build bombers of their own to serve as detractors to the future agressor. They did not see any value to the tactical bombers which proved inefficient.
At the same time germans saw that the "strategic bombings" did not have any military value and decided to only build tactical ones.
Whan the war started germans had nothing to seriously hit enemy economy with.
Neither did brits - their unescorted strategic bombers could only be used at night against the population centers.
That continued untill heavily-defended and numerous american bombers escorted to the target and back could destroy the german economy.
They were doomed anyway against such odds. Russians were able to advance without strategic bombers or air superiority.
miko
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HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
man thats bad.
Milko. You have been schooled by someone that practices the "tell a big enough lie" school of rewriting history. Scary stuff.
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Am not defending anyone's beliefs or anything BUT what miko just said might be possible. Can it be that the western powers just feed into our books and common knowledge
false statements to justify what they''ve done. Just the same as the SS did back in Germany.
I think Miko that statement might be true Stalin was a backstabber but then again Hitler also wanted war from the begining he wanted to baptize his newly reformed Wermacht with blood and fire,but he had to postpone each time he had a chance, because people always seeded(spell) to what he wanted. Always wanted an attack to justify itself , looked for legal reasons to do so... The thing is up to '39 no one wanted to fight Germany untill they unleashed the Blitz on Poland and untill then no one declared war ,suure Britain was pissed the French crap their pants("we're next") but not untill Germany invaded France that Britain declared war on Germany. Many times each side tryed to avoid war even Hit;er's generals but he wanted it from the start he didn't war a full scale war but just enough to take back his supposed Lebensraum and restore the glory of his Country(i.e. revenge for WWI)
later
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Glasses---I may have 4 eyes ,but you only have one wing.
[This message has been edited by Glasses (edited 11-23-2000).]
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War was declared on the invasion of poland not france.
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Miko and Glasses what is the color of the sky on your planet?
[This message has been edited by Torque (edited 11-23-2000).]
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MIKO absolute roadkill.
I suggest you read mein kampf and realise that theres never been such an insight into the workings of a brutal and murderous dictator.
Hitler invaded poland and was intent on destroying the 'bolshevists' from the outset of hostillities,but he didnt want a war on 2 fronts.His intention was a quick end to the war in the west and then to turn on the russian 'bolshevists' whom he considered to be worse than the Jews and i pray you do not forget what he did to them.
For you to suggest that Stalin wanted another world war at the time poland was invaded is ludicrous!.Russian army was a war machine left in the 18th century at that time and stalin knew it.They had horse drawn artillery! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) .He needed time to organise and build for the coming Nazi threat which he must surely have expected as their ideologies were so different.
The russian/german pact was merely to hold off a war in the east until hitler could free his army from the west.There were those that said Hitler, right up to the end of the war, hoped that the allies would join germany and push the bolshivics out of europe! jesus he was a loon.
'Stalin tricked Hitler into attacking poland'?
This would be the funniest statement ive ever heard if it wasnt for the seriousness of your misgivings!.Thousands upon thousands of polish civilians and soldiers alike perished at the hands of Germany and it was Hitlers INTENT!.Do not try to tell us he did it because he was tricked.
Miko why dont you read 'second world war' by martin gilbert (isbn 1-85799-346-2).It may open your eyes to the truth.
Hazed
Sorry for sounding off at you but this is an emotional subject.
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"There were those that said Hitler, right up to the end of the war, hoped that the allies would join germany and push the bolshivics out of europe!"
What a bitter, tragic farce it is, I reflect, for the democracies of the West to have become brothers-in-arms with the Bolshevists! In the East, German soldiers have been waging for years a heroic battle against Soviet Communism. They are fighting top save, not Germany alone, but the whole fabric of Western civilisation from the threatening Asiatic World Revolution. We should come to terms with the Western Powers as quickly as possible, and unite with them in a common front against the forces of Bolshevism - the arch-enemy of liberty, humanity and our civilisation in general.
If this war ends in the collapse of Germany, it will mean a mighty and decisive victory for the forces of Bolshevism and World Revolution.
There's a few more similar quotes in the same book - I Flew for the Fuhrer, by Heinz Knoke.
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Wow.. this isn't what I expected. Anyway, I agree with MaxImm's statements. The war was a terrible waste of lives and was due to the extremely misguided intentions of a few.
Communism has collapsed in Europe fortunately, however the most stubborn still cling to it. It's probably due to the old-fashioned "saving face" stuff that makes the leaders of the remaining communist powers put their people into poverty/suffering in order to keep the government alive. But that's off topic.
mauser
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yup Miko, you need to study ww2 a little more. Unless of course that was a troll, and in that case, nice one. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by Torque:
Miko and Glasses what is the color of the sky on your planet?
[This message has been edited by Torque (edited 11-23-2000).]
I dunno what colour their sky is BUT MAN I WANT THAT toejam THEIR SMOKIN!!!!!
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Well.. germans actually tried to get peace with the brits after they got pissed off when they were driven off from france.
(didn't brits sunk few french ships before germans had their forces all over, so germans wouldn't get french ships?)
Poland, nobody cared of it..
I don't think that war was 'declared' because of poland, but it started from there.
well.. thats how I remember it from that time when I read more history about the cause of WW2.
Brits would had literally (hmm.. they actually did so) gave over the poland without war, so it couldn't been "war was declared on the invasion of poland, not france"
well.. correct me if I am wrong.
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1-Stalin trusted Hitler. To a very big point. He thought that Hitler was a maniac and one to be dealt with sooner or later, but he signed the non agression treaty with Germany and thought that it would last.
In 1940 the USSR purchased a half-finished german cruised of the Hipper class (the Lutzow). They also bought the German KM the optical rangefinder destined to Bismarck's Anton turret, along with the Bismarck's original drawings of the class design for a huge ammount of money.
In short, in 1940 german-russian relations can be called as a "friendship".
When Germans launched barbarossa Stalin felt deeply treasoned and took that as a direct and personal insult of Hitler towards him.
That's the reason he wanted at all costs to capture Hitler alive, and that is the reason that after the soviet troops found his remnants he was so suspicions and ordered so many investigations year after year. He was sure that Hitler had played another trick on him, escaping while making Stalin believe that he was dead. Today we know that Hitler commited suicide in his bunker and then was burned by SS troops, for sure. Stalin died still fearing that his archenemy was still alive.
2-Hitler really felt he could seize Poland with no response from the Western powers. After all he had played that trick...how many times?...Rhineland, Austria, Sudetenland, Chzekia (Spell?), Slovakia...He had broken the Versalles treaty with no problems, and he just had signed a non agression pact with USSR. He felt that he could do another step. But he was wrong,as we all know.
3-When France fell, it was surprising for all. For the french fer sure, for the British, too.
But the Germans may well have been the most surprised guys of all them. They were SO surprised that in effect for nearly month and a half they did not know what to do!...
There was no plans for anything, there was no clue of what to do...Hitler Figured that UK would sue for peace but he became angry when he saw that this was not the case.
Sealion was designed in a hurry, an ill-planed invasion that very likely would had been a german disaster.
Churchill wanted to keep the war on, as most british people. They did, they went through nearly a year of dark times waging war semialone against two countries (Semialone because for me USA was in the war as soon as in 1940 with the transfer of the 50 DDs and the lend-lease law). And they won the war.
And BTW, regarding the polish incident, the british cared nothing about the polish people. That was well shown later in 1943 when the Katyin massacre came to the light, and even more in 1944 when Warsaw rebellion happened, with the russian troops only a few dozens of miles away. The soviets didnt move a finger (surely they were smiling at the spectacle, as their most hated enemies were holding an insurrection from polish nationalists...so the germans were doing the work that the soviets would've had to do later... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif) )
The british never asked them to move a finger. Understabily the Polish government in the Exile was quite pissed. The reason for the 1939 Declaration of war was because France and England had agreed that they wont pass another Hitler trick.They felt treasoned because they truly thought after the munich talks in 1938 that Hitler's ambitions were fulfitted.
If Hitler had tried to seize, say, Txikitisland (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) instead of Poland, the result would've been the same: a war.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 11-23-2000).]
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RAM, Churchill first asked Stalin to intervene in the Warsaw rising on Aug 5. He continued requesting Stalins help for the Poles until Aug 26, when he asked Roosevelt to join him in demanding Stalin aid the Poles. Roosevelt refused.
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Humm...really?...I've not read a lot about this (one or two WWII encyclopaedias, and the warsaw insurrection was only a small chapter in both)
Pliz can you tell me where to read what you say?...always thought that the Brits remained still (not too strange if you remember that Stalin was seen as few less than a hero in Britain during WWII)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 11-23-2000).]
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OT, but interesting discussion. You folks have to remember that everyone writes history differently.
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LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
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Originally posted by RAM:
1-Stalin trusted Hitler. To a very big point. He thought that Hitler was a maniac and ...
Not quite true. That all is a dated western historic science opinion on the pre-war situation. Last few years, after USSR archives were opened to the historians, it were several very interesting works about that matter. Did not you ask yourself how LW could deal so deadly blow to the VVS in the first days of war? That is cause 95% of VVS planes were located very close to the USSR/German border. Soviet devisions were consentrated very close to the border too. Stalin's line (defensive by its nature) was partly disinstalled. It were printed by war ministry millions of the detailed maps of european countries, but NONE (again NONE) of the USSR territory, so when war started officers could not command troops because they simply did not had maps. Even after months of war troops had a terrible needs for maps. It is tons of other facts that shows that USSR were couple of weeks from starting full-scale aggression against Germany. That is one of the reason of the terrible loses of the first days of war. Army which is configured to the attack is unballanced and the easy target for a sudden strong blow.
"Stalin trusted Hitler!" You simply had not read enough about Stalin. I advice you to read more about him, in my opinion he is much more Evil than Hitler, and much more gineous when it comes to the questions of the Big Strategy. And he was paranoic to the much greater scale that Hitler. It is still unknown how many soviets exactly died during Stalin's time, but numbers are around 20-35 millions (not including numbers of war loses). Those who think that concentration camps are the invention of nazies are very far from the truth, they were used by the Soviets much earlier in the greater scale (actually they were invented by the Lord Kitchiner, and firstly used by Brits in the Anglo-Burs war, but that is another story). And he trusted absolutly nobody. Yes, when aggression started he was stunned, and for several week he fell into a bad depression. But that is more like the strong chess player is stunned when he is two moves out of mating his opponent, and sees that he is under 1 move mate himself! He was stund with the crash on his plans, he saw the whole Europe under the commies.
Fariz
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Gotta read that one!
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Lmao ! Germany was tricked into invading poland !
That should be in the "Post your best joke" thread .
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Actually, Hitler was NOT tricked into attacking Poland, but miko is right about Hitler thinking it wouldn't have started ww2.
The British at the time thought that Germany and Poland would come to an agreement regarding Danzig and the corridor. As a matter of fact, British public opinion favored Germany over this particular issue.
As far as Mein Kampf, the only thing that proved was that Hitler had absolutely no convictions except for his antisematism.
He was an opportunist, nothing more. History gives him too much credit. Hitler's success was due primarily to only one virtue - patience.