Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Luke Skywalker on January 02, 2001, 08:20:00 PM
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Before anyone starts to think about doing it, please keep the flames out of this thread. I want to share one thing that happened today and after watching the general mood in this forum I dont want this thread to end like a flame fest.
Today I was on A35, with a 109F4 doing base defence duties. I was doing quite well, having a nice time flying one of those sorties that makes you love a simulator. Then I noticed the bombers. There were two bombers over A35, a B-17 and a B-26. they clearly had launched all their load so I didnt try to intercept them, as I was sure that they were about to return to base.
After avoiding a couple of bounces from a P51 and trying to get into a 190's six I noticed the B17 10K lower than before, firing to two knight fighters. I thought "it may be another bomber" but then I saw it making a break turn that got both fighters out of position and kept on firing on them. Such a turn (I think) its not possible in a heavy loaded bomber. This was prolly the same bomber as before, who had dived 10K to engage enemy fighters. "thats kinda weird" I thought to myself. But as the bomber was well covered (and the P51 seemed to like me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)) I let it aside as a strange happening.
The 190 had dived to the deck and was followed by a knight. A yak was a bit higher about to get the Knight's six, so I dived from my 10K to help and to drag the P51 low. The P51 didnt follow, and the 190 was killed by the knight. I got the yak's six and was about to get it...
when I see tracers over me. I look behind...and what do I see?.
You guess it, the B17 had dived again, this time right to the deck, and was on my six. I couldnt believe it. I tried to follow the Yak's evasives, knowing the B17 couldnt follow.
But indeed it could. He got me with gunfire from its turrets. Later the guy confirmed me that he was on autopilot, on the turrets, and steering the plane through rudders.
And now my question is why do we have bombers able to do that?. I see it as a highly unrealistic feature on aces high, I was really amazed seeing how that B17 got two fighters,on its own, turnfighting with them.
When I flew with Han, he always said that, while the Millenium Falcon was the best blockade runner in the galaxy, he rather wanted to face an Imperial Lancer Frigate than two TIE fighters.
I bet that he will love this simulation (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
now, seriously, opinions?.
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Hey, dont shoot me! I'm on the light side!!
(http://smilecwm.tripod.com/owen/luke3.gif)
(http://www.navegalia.com/hosting/000e0/illumm/straffing.gif)
[This message has been edited by Luke Skywalker (edited 01-02-2001).]
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What You talkin bout luke???!!
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Don't feel bad Luke, I had the same thing happen to me about a week ago. A B-17 was diving over the top of a furball, hitting auto, and spraying into the mess. Ended up getting 2 kills out of it. I watched this from my Lancaster, while I was trying to sneak away from the fight. About 2 minutes later, I hear a few pings, and look back in time to see a B-17 diving full speed at me, guns blazing.
You can't stop all the dweebery, you just have to take comfort in the fact that they must surely realize that they are a dweeb.
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I do think it's necessary that bombers be able to do some sort of evasives while the pilot/gunner is out of the cockpit. BUT....
I agree heavily with you Luke that the rudder turns of bombers are slightly on the unbelievable side. A bomber can turn tighter with just rudder alone with no..stall..no buffeting (don't know if that's the word I should use) than doing a hard pull from the cockpit.
I've encoutered numerous occasions where nearing the underside of a Lanc, it does a sharp rudder turn and a 90 degree angle in a mere second with no apparent cost to it's E, etc.
I can't shoot at all like that but some ppl are gaming the game on this one. It's definately something I'd like looked into by the HTC team.
Wingnut
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I've stalled all buffs at one time or another from the gunner position, by givin it too much rudder. The heavier the load the more likely to stall/spin.
One more thing, you guys have no excuse for talking in third person here, take up a buff on or offline and try to do some of the things these buffs did. (not a slam or anything, u just do have the opportunity to check it out from the "other" side.
AKskurj
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Originally posted by SKurj:
One more thing, you guys have no excuse for talking in third person here, take up a buff on or offline and try to do some of the things these buffs did. (not a slam or anything, u just do have the opportunity to check it out from the "other" side.
AKskurj
Skurj, why are you so quick to turn this back on these guys? I have flown bombers quite a bit before this tour. I've seen it from the "other" side. Watching a B-17 used as an air-superiority platform is just annoying, third person or not. Personally, I just hope to make it home without having to engage any enemy fighters. But, there are those who will dive a bomber into a crowd on purpose to use it as mobile ack.
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LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
(http://www.luftjagerkorps.com/images/logo.gif)
[This message has been edited by LJK Raubvogel (edited 01-02-2001).]
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Sounds like an outstanding flying and shooting job by the B-17. If you can't evade a B-17 in a 109, you might need some time in the training arena. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I don't use rudder when in the gunner positions cause I wouldnt' be able to hit anything but yes I've tried it in the Junkers and I'm still amazed at it's ability.
I've had running battles with bombers that would break turn when I was around D800 away and zoom by like a spit after one of their all too famous break turns. But I still think it's a quirk.
If the HTC crew checked it out and decided the advantages outway the abuses or decided that it was a perception of a problem and not a problem that's fine.
But especially since others see it often it's something worth a little more study.
Wingnut
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Originally posted by LJK Raubvogel:
Skurj, why are you so quick to turn this back on these guys? I have flown bombers quite a bit before this tour. I've seen it from the "other" side. Watching a B-17 used as an air-superiority platform is just annoying, third person or not. Personally, I just hope to make it home without having to engage any enemy fighters. But, there are those who will dive a bomber into a crowd on purpose to use it as mobile ack.
Raub I fly a buff abit, and the guys that do that stuff in 17's and the like are good at what they do. All i am suggesting is that you guys try and do what they do, its no simple feat. Its like comparing me in a fighter vs someone like Hblair, I barely pass for average in a fighter yet hb can do things I can't (yet). Is he gaming the game? Well in a way yes (PLEASE READ ON) he knows his aircraft better than I and its abilities to the limits the game allows him.
These buff pilots are perhaps to bombers, what guys like winqk, hb and cit are to fighters.
Oops one other point, the buff can only manage much of this stuff when empty, its hardly worth the risk going anywhere nearem.
If buffs start clouding the AH skies it will become a problem needed to be addressed, but at present buff survivability is poor enough without makin it worse. Make the buffs ALOT tougher, then reduce maneuverability maybe.
I rarely rtb a buff, cheers to those that do is all i have left to say (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
AKskurj
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A long time ago(actually it's still happening) in an online sim far, far away(it's not rather far at all)...
It is appropriately dubbed as "Ackstaring" and in any galaxy..er sim it is still a dweebish thing to do.
But like the sinister agents of the Dark Side, can the Jedi ever stop them all? They did? Oh well, that's just because there was never an episode VII. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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1st Lt. Wicked
XO,487th FS "Lil' Bastards"
352nd FG "Blue Nosed Bastards of Bodney"
352ndfightergroup.com (http://www.352ndfightergroup.com)
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Originally posted by funked:
Sounds like an outstanding flying and shooting job by the B-17. If you can't evade a B-17 in a 109, you might need some time in the training arena. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Funked, the bomber dived from 10K to the deck, as you may understand it came as a suprise to me. Last time i checked my six there was noone there, and the only one in position to get it was a bomber at 10K. Needless to say that made me feel confident. The next time I looked ,he was there, at 700 yards and closing fast.
I dont intend to bring up the bomber guns' issue here, but I started getting pings from that same distance, and I could do nothing to avoid it. my wing was destroyed and I had to bail.
It was a perfect bounce from his side (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) you can say that I let myself be caught by surprise. I may agree with you, but I think ANYONE Here would have had been surprised by that move. And that same bomber had shot down 2 fighters on its own by turnfighting its B17.
I know that bombers gunnery and maneouverability is upgraded for improve their playability in BOMBER mission...but if those upgrades let them actually do a better anti fighter role than a fighter, then I think that this needs some work.
PLayable or not, a bomber is a bomber. TO dive 10K to engage two lower bandits, and then again to the deck to engage yet another one in a B17 is not only incredible and unrealistic, it kicks away a lot of immersion feeling on this simulator.
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Hey, dont shoot me! I'm on the light side!!
(http://smilecwm.tripod.com/owen/luke3.gif)
(http://www.navegalia.com/hosting/000e0/illumm/p51.gif)
[This message has been edited by Luke Skywalker (edited 01-03-2001).]
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just do like I do and grab a b26 they make great buff killers ,as they are faster and way more agile than the b-17 and the lanc.
two weeks ago I had a day with nuthin but strange kills ,
I spotted a low b17 while rtb from a run in a b26 I dropped my nose on her came screamin up on her six let loose with all the forward facing fifties and scored some great hits but by this time the b17 driver noticed I was there and started firing back so I nosed down even more slid under neath the b-17 and used my top and tail guns to finish it off ,
it was a blast I tell ya ,
so quit yer squeakin shut up and play
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This is just a thought so don't everyone freak.
I'll start by saying I've ridden in a B-17. It was empty (no bombs or mg rounds obviously)and there were about 12 people on board. So there was basically no weight. As compared to a twin engined Beechcraft (2 400+ hp eng's) the 17 pulled MUCH harder on take off. They used to dive B17's at fairly high speeds to put out engine fires. I talked to a man that worked on turbo prop design back in the late 40's. They put turbo props on a B-17 and it would out run a F4U on a closed course! The plane is designed to carry 6000lbs of extra weight. Get rid of it and the power to weight ratio goes up big time. B-17's are well known for the strong airframe. I don't know this for sure but given these things maybe an empty B-17 is really a good flying plane. Just something to think about. Don't everyone have a hart attack on me.
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Whats wrong with scissoring B17s and Lancasters?
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Ahhh, Star Wars nuts everywhere! Actually...they're pretty good movies. /me out
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===>Frosty
====>Exposure2k.com
=====>Frosty@exposure2k.com
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Originally posted by gatt:
Whats wrong with scissoring B17s and Lancasters?
nothing...if you forget about the bouncing crew into the fusselage ,right?
Skywlker, get used to it. In fact its not as bad as it used to be a couple of versions before when ackstarring (taking off from capped fields with a B17 to fight capping fighters) was as usual as breathing.
B17s doing 90º banks and firing from turrets at the same time...yes they are a joke, but a lot of things in this GAME are a joke right now.
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B17s doing 90º banks and firing from turrets at the same time...yes they are a joke, but a lot of things in this GAME are a joke right now.
[/B]
Yeah. Like you.
X2
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Luke, what I found most interesting and honorable about your entire post was that you made a decision to let the "empty" buffs go. I salute you Sir Knight of the Sky !!!
RAS
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Luke, you never listen do you??? Remember what I told Chewie that time..."Fly Casual". Do that and they'll never even notice you and then you can sneek up and ***censored as it's a bit nasty*** (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Patience must you learn if a jedi you be! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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May the Force be with you.
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Looks like the Star Wars nuts came out of the woodwork.... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Lt. Col. Aaron "txace-" Giles of the 457th BG
"Fait Accompli"
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RAM, bingo! Theres no crew here to take care about. Well, the best thing to do is to take it easy (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Today I lost a wing extending from a Spitfire spraying at 800yds on my FE ... I took a deeeep breath and off I went again.
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LOL this is almost as funny as when Nath answered Kep's post.
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Originally posted by RAS:
Luke, what I found most interesting and honorable about your entire post was that you made a decision to let the "empty" buffs go. I salute you Sir Knight of the Sky !!!
RAS
Ditto!! Thats something very few have the ability to do. Don't get me wrong, nothing wrong with going after that empty buff, but the guy was there protecting his field and stayed with it! <S>
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Lack of aggresion will get you every time.
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The reason for this acquired "skill???" is 2 fold 1. the unreal advantage given to bomber guns regarding effective range (orginally put there to help with net lag) and 2. because they can get away with it. The gun range on the bombers REALLY needs a second look by HTC as the abuse of the intended "fix" gets worse as time goes by, I feel that if the range were pulled in by only 400 yrds that this problem would abate, and bomber pilots would go back to what they do best which is bombing <G>
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Originally posted by funked:
LOL this is almost as funny as when Nath answered Kep's post.
If you try to "suggest" I'm flying under this guy's name....MEEEC! Wrong answer!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
(lol its been a long time since someone tried to guess it!)
neeener neeeeener (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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ram, sheesh,
Nath said he was kep like 2 days into the callsign change. Hello?
In contrast, your "supposably" trying so hard to have a better AH experience from the AH community by your anonymity, while in fact your lobbying and broadcasting everything that will recognize you.
Strange? Naw, child like.
Kids these dayz!
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Originally posted by Creamo:
ram, sheesh,
Nath said he was kep like 2 days into the callsign change. Hello?
No. Nath's new handle was recognized as him, without any doubt. Reason? he behaved just as he used to.
I rarely have talked on #1 online since I came back...how?...keeping #1 squelched or on the 5th radio square (as I dont use RW I dont mind (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)). I have ever rarely saluted someone for a fight, unless in private...
and (hehe) now I dont care to dive to help helpless teammates, most of the time. I am COMPLETELY SURE that noone out of the guys I want,knows who I am.
People has tried to do wild guesses on my identity since I came back, now some six weeks ago...lets see...so far in six weeks I have been....
Kep...SANSAL...SUPONGO...Glun z...now Skywalker...who will be the next I am? I can't wait to know it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Keep this pace, buddies, someday you **MAY** guess who am I (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
P.S.:Hint: I'm not Pongo, nor Citabria, nor FunkedUp
(lol) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 01-04-2001).]
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I rest my case.
Ya know, it would be funner if you weren't so damn simple.
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I'm just glad Luke and Vader are talking again. There's hope in the universe once more.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
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OK wich is the part of "I dont want a flamefest in this thread" that don't you understand?. If you want to discuss someone's personal problems, please do another thread on your own, ok?
This was intended to be an honest thread about bombers and their misuse in Main arena and now we end with another chapter of "Who's RAM?". And still worse, with me as guest star.
Sometimes I wonder why do I take the time to post in this forum, to be true (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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Hey, dont shoot me! I'm on the light side!!
(http://smilecwm.tripod.com/owen/luke3.gif)
(http://www.navegalia.com/hosting/000e0/illumm/straffing.gif)
[This message has been edited by Luke Skywalker (edited 01-04-2001).]
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Originally posted by Wicked:
A long time ago(actually it's still happening) in an online sim far, far away(it's not rather far at all)...
It is appropriately dubbed as "Ackstaring" and in any galaxy..er sim it is still a dweebish thing to do.
But like the sinister agents of the Dark Side, can the Jedi ever stop them all? They did? Oh well, that's just because there was never an episode VII. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I just have to add, in keeping with the theme of this thread, and the actual history, the original name of this tactic 'in an online sim far away ..' was "deathstar" and "deathstarring".
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Originally posted by scout:
I just have to add, in keeping with the theme of this thread, and the actual history, the original name of this tactic 'in an online sim far away ..' was "deathstar" and "deathstarring".
And guess WHO destroyed the Death Star? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Hey, dont shoot me! I'm on the light side!!
(http://smilecwm.tripod.com/owen/luke3.gif)
(http://www.navegalia.com/hosting/000e0/illumm/p51.gif)
[This message has been edited by Luke Skywalker (edited 01-04-2001).]
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Originally posted by RAM:
I rarely have talked on #1 online since I came back...
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 01-04-2001).]
Sounds perfect to me.
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One thing I would be intrested to hear is this.
1) Would it be possible?
2) What would it take to be possible
3) Why ain't we pattin this guy in the B17 on the back because he is obviously an amazing pilot?
Is it really that unrealistic to think that it is imposible to do such a thing in real life?
Just my £0000000000000000000.00000001's worth
<grin>
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well, Betown, I find unrealistic to see a bomber banking really hard while firing from the gunner positions. IN real life the gunners would be having a bad time standing on their spot, let alone pointing and firing to enemy fighters.
Yes I think its unrealistic and maybe even dweebish (after all, is to game the game,right?). But I also recognize the merit of the bomber. I saluted the pilot on private, even though I let quite clear what I think about this kind of happenings (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
But my point is that its not realistic, and we dont need bomber guns able to fire on a hard bank, even for better gameplay...maybe HTC could make guns unable to fire in a bank harder than 20º, just as they are unable to fire in the ground?
Just a thought. what do you think about this idea?
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Hey, dont shoot me! I'm on the light side!!
(http://smilecwm.tripod.com/owen/luke3.gif)
(http://www.navegalia.com/hosting/000e0/illumm/straffing.gif)
[This message has been edited by Luke Skywalker (edited 01-04-2001).]
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(http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/s/owen/deathstar1.gif)
Fear leads to anger
Anger leads to hate
Hate leads to suffering!
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May the Force be with you.
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Luke, I think you need to balance "Game play" with "Realism" for a successful online sim.
As far as a good gunner in a bomber? Sure beats having OTTO kill you in Warbirds...BTW, I challenge you to fly the B17 the same way you described above, it takes alot of practice, patience, and understanding the limitations of the B17 to do what he did, and after speaking with several pilots that actually flew the B17 here at the Boeing Flight museum, I am convinced a B17 without bombs could do everything you just described in the first post.
Regards,
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(http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/ripanim.gif)
~Death Rattlers~
Member of 'MAG-33' (Click here) (http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/M3.html)
Click here for VMF-323 Death Rattlers info (http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/vmf323inquirer.html)
Click here for interviews with other Aces High Squadrons (http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/SPOTLIGHT1.html)
If you cannot do something well,
learn to enjoy doing it poorly!
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 01-04-2001).]
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It's pretty funny that you answered me RAM. I think you are getting paranoid. Hint: More than one person is using an "alias" in this thread.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 01-04-2001).]
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Originally posted by funked:
It's pretty funny that you answered me RAM. I think you are getting paranoid. Hint: More than one person is using an "alias" in this thread.
So... you are Creamo???? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
LOL!!!!! this is getting even better (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Ok ok so I will stop being Glunz for a while and now I am Sywalker, right?...say I am tired of that, after being kep and SANSAL for a few time (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
LMAO!
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First of all I gotta say that I LOVE your sig pictures Luke. Wicked cool! Catch me if U can P51 (LOL!!!)
As far as "The Buff Dillemma" I'd say that if instead of having turbolasers, the player taking up a buff would:
Take off in one buff followed by 2 AI flown buffs of the same type and loadout following the player's buff in formation (single line, delta or whatever formation you can program with a .dot command). If the player's buff gets killed he will be jumped to another of his AI buffs and take lead. Repeat till all buffs die. Gunners on the buffs would be able to select what bomber they want to gun and stick with it until they get shot down (and die with the buff). Thus the buff junkie would have his formation to pilot and 3 gunners to keep him safe and happy!
That way, the buff pilot will not only have 3 times the bomb loadout and 3 times the guns to defend his formation.
Now the only thing needed to not make this into THE Imperial Star Destroyers spewing almighty, Saint Hispano-humbling turbolaser ride would be to make the guns on all buffs be like the lancaster's guns (not very strong, not very weak), increasing each buff's toughness (except Lanc.. that thing eats lead!) by 40% and make their manouverability be REAL bad so as to avoid F-17's and F-26 use of the buffs. Now imagine that 4 players who want to bomb a field.. each take up their formations... you would get a realistic 12-bomber formation of buffs and when people escort them in fighters..well, you get the idea. Once bomb dispersion is added to the game *HINT HINT* this would make up for loss of accuracy (since AI formation buffs release bombs in the same exact salvo/delay at the same time as the lead buff) and introduce the realistic CARPET BOMBING routine.
This way, people who want to bomb would take the formation buffs. Those who want to be an attack plane would take the hopefully to be added B-26 and Ju-88 attack variants (attack variants would take off as single planes, not formations).
Comments on this HTC? I really believe this idea would work wonders!
[This message has been edited by Tac (edited 01-04-2001).]
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Good idea Tac...the force is strong in this one.
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Originally posted by Tac:
First of all I gotta say that I LOVE your sig pictures Luke. Wicked cool! Catch me if U can P51 (LOL!!!)
hehe, thanks...lets see if you like the new ones...see them at...
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum4/HTML/001149.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum4/HTML/001149.html)
BTW I like your idea (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Hey, dont shoot me! I'm on the light side!!
(http://smilecwm.tripod.com/owen/luke3.gif)
(http://www.navegalia.com/hosting/000e0/illumm/ywing.gif)
[This message has been edited by Luke Skywalker (edited 01-04-2001).]
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But,But,but it ain't OTTO!