Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: hubsonfire on July 05, 2004, 02:13:01 PM
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I stumbled across a page the otherday with a decent (as far as i know, anyway) history of the hurricanes, typhs, and tempests. I know its a slow bastard, but the hurricane, the site claimed, while outclassed by even the early midwar fighters, was put to regular use as a ground attack plane, being equipped with those wonder hizookas, 250 and 500 pound bombs, and (violently salivating) rockets! Granted, I'm a dedicated early war plane guy, but I would looooove to see rockets added as a weapon loadout.
Can anyone set us up with some good accurate info on this? Was this a common setup? See action in many different theaters? These the same rockets commonly used by the typhoons?
Anyway, I've noticed that the hurri 2c and 2d are seeing a lot more use these days, and I thought this might make a nice "simple little" addon some day.
Cheers
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What you are refering to was the Hawker Hurricabe Mk. IV.
Built in 1943 powerd by a Merlin 24, V12, liquid-cooled, 1,298HP
Max speed 283
Amament: 2x40mm cannons, 2 303 machine guns, 1,002 lb of bombs and rockets.
This hurri could carry a total of 8 rockets 4 on each wing. Or have 6 rockets and 2 250 bombs.
The airframe was strengthened and drove a four-bladed prop opposed to the 3. Only 2 were modified to the Mk.IV. The project was later abandoned.
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Think it was the Hurricane II with the universal wing that could carry rockets (Hurri-2E maybe?).
I'm not sure that the Hurri-2C ever carried rockets, not that it would need them.
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Found the website again. its
"http://www.aviation-history.com/hawker/hurrcane.html"
I'm trying to find more info on this. I know Urchin, its not a 'need', but its a 'want', and let's face it, this game is all about what I want. =) Alright, maybe I'm delusional. Also, there's no guarantee any of the following is even accurate, but hey, I've got some free time to kill..
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When it became clear that the Hurricane was becoming outclassed as a pure fighter, other duties were assigned to it. In October 1941 the 'Hurribomber' fighter-bomber came into being, carrying either two 113 kg (250 lb) or two 226 kg (500 lb) bombs under its wings. The Mk IID of 1942 was fitted with two 40 mm cannon for tank busting and two machine-guns, and was operated mainly in North Africa against Rommel's desert forces and in Burma against the Japanese. Other Hurricanes carried rocket projectiles as alternative ground attack weapons.
The year 1943 saw two important developments in the Hurricanes history--the introduction of the Mark IV and the adoption of the Hurricane to fire rocket missiles or, as they were initially known, "unrifled projectiles". The Hurricane IV differed from the Mark II in two respects: it used a Merlin 24 or 27 which developed 1,620 h.p. for take-off, and it featured "low attack" or universal armament wings. These wings were derived from those fitted to the Hurricane IID and could carry the 40-mm. Vickers or Rolls Royce cannon, bombs, drop-tanks or rocket projectiles. The Hurricane IV was in service by March 1943 and was operational in the Middle and Far East theatres until the end of the war, and in Europe until the end of 1944. The development of the aircraft rocket had introduced a new factor in the use of aircraft as ground-assault weapons, and the Hurricane IIB and IIC were the first single-seaters to employ the rockets operationally. After extended trials at the A. & A.E.E. and elsewhere with rockets launched from Hurricanes (commencing with Z2415 which was fitted with three launching rails under each wing early in 1942), No. 137 Squadron took its rocket carrying Hurricanes into action for the first time at the beginning of September 1943. Hurricane IIBs, IICs, and IVs were fitted with four rockets under each wing.
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Hurri Mk. IV
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/615_1089059005_hurri3.jpg)
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Great pic, she's a beaut'.
Finding kinda mixed info, but it looks like there were a good number of mk4s produced, and also some retrofits. Also looks like there weren't many (any?) in the ETO either. Seems as though the poweplant and wings were the main diff's between the 2s and 4s. I'd still like to fire those 60 pounders at stuff. While I would like to have the (purported) first allied rocket-carrying warplanes, everywhere I've looked says the tiff's did the same job better. Ah well, I can dream.
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I totaly agree hub.
I have always flown the hurri. I just like the old bird.
Would be very nice to have some rockets on her.:)
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The IId, with the 40mm Vickers cannons and 15 rds ea, was used by No5, 6, 20, 184 RAF and No7 SAAF. Only 184 operated in Europe, the others operated in NA. The .303s were used for ranging the cannons. Armour to the tune of 386lb was added to bribf the all uo weight to 8,218lb.
The Mk IV had 524 examples built with most going to NA and the FE theatres. No 137, 164, 184 flew operationally from the UK until March '44. No 438, 439, and 440 RCAF flew the IV in the UK, but not operationally, before converting to Typhoons. Only 137 and 164 are known to have used their 40mms in action, majority of sorties being with rockets. The Mk IV had 350lb of armour. Eleven Sqds were eventually equiped with the Mk IV.
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Hurri's with rockets were used mainly against the Japenese,Instead of the Typhoon and Tempests which were used only in the ETO.
I would love to see the Hurri' with rockets,it turns better than the tiffie too.:)
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Yea, but what was the armament on the universal wings when it wasn't carrying the 2 40mm?
I always kind of thought it had 2 .303's, and then either bombs, rockets, or the 40mm.
Would it have 2 .303s and 4 20mm?
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I think you're right on the armament, Urchin. I can't find anything that lists the hispanos on the IIE/IV (pretty much the same plane, think only power plant/desert tuning changed). Almost everything I've found so far lists 2 .303s, then the cannon 'pods', bombs, or rockets- haven't found any combo's of cannons & ord.
The Belgian IVs (can't find any production/combat figures for them) apparently used FN/Browning .50 cals, 2 in each wing (gee, wonder why?), but nearly everything else points to the IV being our 2D, with a bit more power, a little more armor for the pilot/engine, and a choice of ord or cannons.
It'd be pretty weakly armed for any A2A stuff when loaded with the ord, but it's a definite purpose-built machine, so the mg loadout is moot point.
I see the C and D are starting to get popular with the MA crowd for anti'GV stuff, so I thought it'd be a cool addition. The C fitted with rockets would be, IMO, a little too over the top for a GV hunter. The hizookas already roast tanks, and who'd want some clown like me killing 10-15 gvs per run in a poop-brown earlywar bird? :D
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Originally posted by scott123
I would love to see the Hurri' with rockets,it turns better than the tiffie too.:)
OK you want to see em, here they are :)
Hurricane IVs with rockets on one wing and the drop tank under the other, operating in the Balkans in 1944 against the Germans.
6 Squadron at work
Dan/Slack
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/169_1089095898_hurriiv.jpg)
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Digging through my stuff as I'm late to this party.
And I quote:
"In 1943 the final production model, the Hurricane IV, made its debut. Originally designated Hurricane IIE(270 machines delivered before the designation was changed) the Mk.IV featured "low attack" or universal armament wings, these being capable of carrying 40mm Vickers Cannon, bombs, drop tanks, or "unrifled projectiles" as rocket missles were originally known....
With eight 60lb rockets, the Hurricane IV had a maximum loaded weight of 8500 lbs, and at a mean weight of 7700 lbs attained maximum speeds of 265 mph at 7000 feet and 284 mph at 13,500 feet.
524 Hurricane IVs and 270 similar Hurricane IIEs were issued to the RAF"
Including a photos of a Hurri IIE with rockets. Same bird from different angles.
No 20mm cannons on any of those IIE, IVs. Just a sighting MG it appears if anything at all
Dan/Slack
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/169_1089097027_hurriiie.jpg)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/169_1089097782_hurriiie2.jpg)
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Deeply respect the Hurricane but mien-gott!!! What an ugly plane.
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What an ugly plane
bah, its just a manly spitfire...not the least bit ugly...looks better than the p-47's at any rate
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Any info bout rockets accuracy and efficiency ? Something like these british 20mm and 40mm tests ?
http://www.lanpartyworld.com/smallwoy/20mmAPvsPz1.JPG
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I'm midflight, so this will be short. I found 2 rocket specs listed, very vague. 25 pound AP warhead, 60 pound HE warhead. Same rockets used by Typhoons, RPS I think is what the RAF called it. Still trying to find some decent range/lethality figures for it, but it'd prolly be better if someone with some ww2 a/c books can post. Also there used to be a site linked to the bbs that had all sorts of info regarding armaments of ww2, wish i could find it. Anyone?
Cheers!
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There were actually some cannon armed Hurries around in the BoB.....
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Originally posted by Angus
There were actually some cannon armed Hurries around in the BoB.....
That could be a little misleading as it appears there was one Hurricane tested with cannon in August-September 1940 that flew roughly 10 operations.
Hurricane V7360 bounced between 151 and 56 Squadrons between August 19 and September 13, 1940
The Hurri IIC with the 4 cannon wing didn't get into service until 1941
Dan/Slack
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The one I read off was in Victor Beamishe's Wing.
Same one?
Will dig up more on it if you like.
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Any luck on the RPS info? I'd like to know a bit more about them, their usefulness, etc.
btw Guppy, great pics, thanks!
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Originally posted by Angus
The one I read off was in Victor Beamishe's Wing.
Same one?
Will dig up more on it if you like.
That's the same kite. Beamish was Wing Commander of the Northweald Sector. His squadrons were 56 and 151 which were the two that shared the trials of that particular Hurricane in August-September 1940
Dan/Slack
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Found some more photos of Hurri IVs with rockets. Apparently 6 Squadron was THE ground attack squadron in Hurri IVs and set the standard for others. There were a total of 11 Squadrons that flew the Hurri IV in ground attack.
6 Squadron finished the war in Hurricane IVs and in fact flew them for 17 months after the war ended, flying the last Hurricane sortie in front line service before the Hurricane was withdrawn on 15 January 1947.
6 Squadron devised their own tactics for both night and day operations.
The pilots found that a 15 degree dive with the aircraft at exactly 225 knots was required. Release point for the 60 pound rockets was300-400 yards from the target and 200 yards when using the 25 pound rocket for night attacks, preferrably in moonlight.
3 images included. The first two are 6 squadron Hurri IVs with the same drop tank, rocket set up. The final image is of CBI based Hurri IVs.
Dan/Slack
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/169_1089345173_6sdnhurriiv1.jpg)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/169_1089345195_hurriiv26sqn.jpg)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/169_1089345219_pachurriiv.jpg)
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Its by no mean ugly...... its the most beutiful plane there is!
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
Any luck on the RPS info? I'd like to know a bit more about them, their usefulness, etc.
From The Complete Encyclopdia of Weapons of WW2 (not that complete;))
British 60lb rocket
usual SOP for Typhoons
"Approach to target was between 6000' and 10,000'. The leader would dive at ~40* to mark the target, he being followed at a simular angle at 400mph or at 30* when a lower speed of ~380mph was indicated. At an altitude of not more than 500' and a distance of 550yds from the target the complete salvo might be fired before the pilot pulled up sharply and took himself out of the radius of action, there being about 5 seconds before shrapnel from the exploding rockets constituted a real danger to the luanching a/c."
Target hit probability was less than 5%. There was a tendency to undershoot and the trajectory drop to be inaccurately estimated.
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5% for one salvo vs tank ?
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Originally posted by VooDoo
5% for one salvo vs tank ?
Yup, and that would be 'pushing' the percentage.
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I remember a case where a P51 pilot spotted a tank-train. He and his mates managed to put holes in the boiler, thereby stopping the train. Rocket carrying Typhoons were called in to finish the job.
Wonder how the hit percentage was there, tanks densely stuffed together on top of rail cars.
As far as he knew, it was a total destruction case.
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Yea, that'd probably be somewhat different from hitting tanks that were dispersed in the field though.
A tank isn't a very big target when you are zipping along at 300 mph, and those rockets weren't guided like the ones we have today.
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Dispersed n the field, hard to see, and not to mention, Moving, that's pretty tough.
Imagine the effect of anything outside a tank, as so often was the case. Support infantry and such, - yeacch
I am pretty sure that the example above is pretty much sound. Tied down tanks on railcars, standstilll and elevated. They would typically have been shredded with rockets and/or tumbled on top.
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Yup, and that would be 'pushing' the percentage.
Im not amusused - just want to clr the subject...
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Originally posted by VooDoo
Yup, and that would be 'pushing' the percentage.
Im not amused - just want to clr the subject...
Well VooDoo, threads tend to' move off' the original post.;) Anyways 'hit percentage is related.:)
Angus, you should read the report (if you have not done so already) on German tank destruction in Normandy.
http://w1.183.telia.com/~u18313395/normandy/articles/airpower.html