Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: sparow on July 05, 2004, 04:12:06 PM
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Hi chaps!
I would like to know if it is possible to build a scenario with a finite number of planes (for both sides).
If possible, why don't we try it, once, at least?
All that was needed was to check the historical order of battle or post-war intelligence to have a realistic number and the apply it to the arena...That way there would be at least two victory conditions...Arena reset or last man (plane) standing!
I know, I'm a pain, you are going to tease me and flame from all directions but I'm a stubburn git!
Blaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
Sparow
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Ain't gonna flame ya. It'd be nice to have such a setting (for events). I don't think there's one. Guess maybe if a staffer wanted to babysit it he could shut down bases that "use up" their allotments but that would take the players keeping tabs, reporting it honestly and wanting to be part of it.
Who knows what AHII will morph into over time, though.
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The only way for us to limit you the player and us the staffer for that matter is to set the numbers of deaths at a certain point just as it has been done in scenarios past. I personally don't like that for open play of any type and think that would be a fast road to the death of any arena in this game.
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Dont know if it can be done in AH but in the Warbirds "Historic Arena", at times, we were given three lives from 8pm eastern till midnight eastern. That cut out a lot of this suicide jabo and GV shi1t :rolleyes:
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Didn't we try something like this before? On a BOB map...?
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Hi chaps!
I also cannot agree with this solution for an open arena like MA.
CT is a little bit different...
An attrition model would have some advantages, for example:
CT, BoB Scenario: according to some sources (not very accurate), Luftflotte 2, 3 and 5 mustered between 1200 to 1500 long range twin-engined bombers, mostly He111, Ju88, Do27, maybe some include here the Bf110...Between 280 and 350 Ju87's and between 1000 Bf109 and Bf110 or, for some, 300 Bf110 and 940 Bf109 and other single-engined fighters.
Found no numbers in british medium and heavy bombers, but it's consensual number that the single-engined fighters, all together, were about 700, from wich 620 Hurricanes and Spitfires, Hurris beeing 2/3 or more of the total.
Well, we would have to have a huge attendance in CT to deplete all these aircraft in a week, wouldn't we?
And if we distributed 1 fighter Squad per field, 2 Flights at 2 sections each, about 18 to 20 fighters per field, and if that number diminished with combat losses or through Hangar bombing, that would give greater meaning to CAP and interception, wouldn't it? Besides, if fuel burn rates where more realistic and ALL aircraft had to take-off with full tanks, that would be even better!
I believe that fighter pilots, like bomber pilots, would think twice before running suicidal runs and that old replaning thing that is so annoying (I do that too, btw).
Shouldn't we, at least, try that?
Thank you all for your replies,
Sparow
Just my five cents...
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Here's a thought.How about when you capture a base you get to fly thier aircraft that was based there(unless you destroy the hangers the you fly your own).Now that would be a good twist to the game:aok(http://www.geocities.com/gearjg3/capp51.jpg)
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Even if it were possible, I will never ever use any sort of limited lives in any setup I run, period.
Bad idea in an open arena. Would make people less likely to engage unless they carried the initial advantage, would be a week of dot chasing. Which would mean a week of boredom for me. The community of regulars is relatively small, the regulars would use of their lives early on and the arena would be empty by the end of the week. If it were a general pool that the lives were drawn from, one weenie in the off hours could come in up and auger and ruin it for one side. The arena would require near constant babysitting on the part of the staffer.
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WarBirds staffers did a great job. Too bad AH staffers arent as good!
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Originally posted by Soulyss
The arena would require near constant babysitting on the part of the staffer.
I agree with you on the "limited lives", that is what scenarios like Kurland and the upcoming BoB are for, however, considering the large number of titty-babies we have, a permanant baby sitter might still be required.
EDIT: for attrocious spelling errors.
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lol.
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Gentlemen, please...
First thing I said was that I am not at all for limited lives or limited planes in open arena like MA! And, maybe, some sort of attrition model would be acceptable in scenarios or, to a certain degree, in CT.
Now, Gear had an extremely interesting idea! If you captured them, they would be yours! Only with a new skin!
But, otoh, when capture occurs, the field should be supplied with the new country's models, drawn automaticaly from rear fields...
My idea is not to limit one's lives, is to limit the total number of aircraft in a given arena/week/day...
The objective would be to make people think about their side's resources, avoiding pointless depletion.
Fields should be easier to close but harder to capture, IMHO...
Also, I expected that this management could be done automatically, not needing a constant assistance from the staff...That would be acceptable for an event/scenario, but totally unacceptable for a week long arena...
Besides, how long would it take to deplete completely the plane pool considering a week long CT arena with the current average, or total, attendance?
Sparow
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it would never work with limited A/C cuz some dumbfek would change side and crash planes as many times as he could just to screw it up
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Thats just the crux of the matter Sparow. A staffer or HTC staff member would have to monitor the CT 24/7 for the duration of a setup. The CT is a special place that doesn't have the same controls as the MA or even as the SEA (since you can limit things automatically). In the CT you can limit aircraft (aka resources) by limiting them to certain fields and that is done for a large part.
However when people get into the arena whatever they do we can not account for 100% of the possible gameplay types that people have and as Truekill mentions. Some dillhole will just switch and crash all the aircraft for that country unless we limit the number of lives that they have for the week. That is unless you want to spend the entire week telling people that they have already used their....lets say 10 lives...in the first 3 hours of gameplay during the week. To me that would be a sure way to shut down the arena in a short amount of time.
What you are talking about however with movement of resources is not something that is able to happen with the way the coding of the basic game itself works. At least that is the way that I have heard it explained.
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Hi chaps!
Well, I have to hear the voice of reson...Yes, this would need to work on a trust basis...and that would be the end of it! :-))
Before I give up, one last idea: one player had to choose his side once only for the whole setup duration...No way he could change country...And the setup would have to reset daily...
I know...He could log with another identity and crash all planes he could get his hands on...
Ok, I give up...
Sparow :-(
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Originally posted by CurtissP-6EHawk
WarBirds staffers did a great job. Too bad AH staffers arent as good!
It's certainly not a matter of ability. The change would be fairly easy to make. A CT Staffer would have to change 1 arena setting twice. Once at 8:00 to start the death limits, and once to turn them off at 12:00.
I believe it would be easy to do from a technical standpoint.
-Sik
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Originally posted by CurtissP-6EHawk
WarBirds staffers did a great job. Too bad AH staffers arent as good!
Yeah I remember those days of having to see what sort of crap was going to be pulled then. To bad I have a life outside of AH, a family and a job and don't need to sit on my arse all day making sure children can play nice among themselves.
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Sound a little bitter there Reschke.
They ran the Target for Tonight event with limited lives in Warbird's Historical arena on Thursday nights and I thought it was one of the better events. It's loose format made it appealing to many, and it's Historical basis appealing to others. At no time did I get the sense that the staffer who was running it was "baby sitting". Yes it took a lot of effort on his part to organize it, but many were appreciative of his efforts.
Effort in my opinion is where the CT staffers lack the most. Load the settings for a week, make a post about it then disappear. So maybe you do have a life, a family or other interests outside of this game. So to that I have to say, yet again, if you haven't the time to make the effort than get out of the way and let someone else make an attempt at the job. You staffers seem to hold onto the position as some type of prestige. But I don't understand what prestige you find in a poorly done job??
Vote Bug:aok
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Last time I pimped the CAP event in the CT Forum I got an earfull however...
We do have a 4 life event on Saturdays (re-starting in AHII on the 17th). Up to four lives, 2.5 hours. Information on the latest frame can be found here:
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=123062
I'm sure that the setup is unfair to both sides, and totally impossible for either side to win, but we try to have fun :) Nothing more fun than flying in a formation of Kates :)
-Sik
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Soulyss I love your sig.
It's the truth.
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CAP went way too Eurotrash friendly with it's start time.
Originally posted by Sikboy
Last time I pimped the CAP event in the CT Forum I got an earfull however...
We do have a 4 life event on Saturdays (re-starting in AHII on the 17th). Up to four lives, 2.5 hours. Information on the latest frame can be found here:
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=123062
I'm sure that the setup is unfair to both sides, and totally impossible for either side to win, but we try to have fun :) Nothing more fun than flying in a formation of Kates :)
-Sik
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Originally posted by Reschke
Yeah I remember those days of having to see what sort of crap was going to be pulled then. To bad I have a life outside of AH, a family and a job and don't need to sit on my arse all day making sure children can play nice among themselves.
Doesnt have to be ALL DAY, just a few hours during squad night prime times :rolleyes: as was the way it was done in WarBirds.
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Originally posted by TheBug
Sound a little bitter there Reschke.
They ran the Target for Tonight event with limited lives in Warbird's Historical arena on Thursday nights and I thought it was one of the better events. It's loose format made it appealing to many, and it's Historical basis appealing to others. At no time did I get the sense that the staffer who was running it was "baby sitting". Yes it took a lot of effort on his part to organize it, but many were appreciative of his efforts.
Effort in my opinion is where the CT staffers lack the most. Load the settings for a week, make a post about it then disappear. So maybe you do have a life, a family or other interests outside of this game. So to that I have to say, yet again, if you haven't the time to make the effort than get out of the way and let someone else make an attempt at the job. You staffers seem to hold onto the position as some type of prestige. But I don't understand what prestige you find in a poorly done job??
Vote Bug:aok
Thanks for explaining it Bug.....VOTE "THEBUG" :aok :aok
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Bitter...yeah maybe I am a little. So be it. As for "prestige" with this position...well if there was any then it wore off about 10 seconds after taking Brady up on the offer of the position.
Another thing that makes me a little bitter is the accusations about "staffers" not caring what happens in this arena. That is plain ridiculous. Believe me the effort is there and the input of time is there as well.
I was one of several players who wrote to HTC often about enabling a "historical" arena aside from the plain jane MA. I wish everyday that this game had a more complete plane set every day so setups like my Soccer War, Artiks Israel vs. Egypt and Second Wind weren't part of the thought process about what we can do each week. So hearing someone continually piss and moan about the staff does get me a little bitter when all that is heard is complaints and nothing really constructive but maybe I just have a hard time seeing through my blindman glasses.
But thats not what this thread is about is it? The topic is this person wanting a "finite number of plane" to be allocated for each player in the weeks setup. All great fine and dandy but it simply can't be done with the way the game is currently setup.
As I have said in order to do that it will kill this arena faster than anything else that anyone could do to it. With the low numbers of people who play in here it simply wouldn't work. How would you like to step into an arena on Friday night (day one of a setup) and only have...lets say 5 lives...to spend between then and the following Thursday? Sure some would say great and I would honestly give it my best shot at keeping those 5 lives. However given the nature of how this game is played by even the best players in all likely hood those 5 lives would be spent within 24 hours. Then what are you going to do? Beg, borrow or start a new account?
So again lets have something constructive on the topic or just let it die off the board here.
Thanks! Hopefully when I run my next setup I can truly upset the entire CT community instead of just the same old 2-3 I upset each time. Just so you all know its going to be a Pacific setup and the F4U-1C is going to be in it also. If I had a map with nothing but carriers I would run that one but I don't so I won't.
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Originally posted by Reschke
However given the nature of how this game is played by even the best players in all likely hood those 5 lives would be spent within 24 hours. Then what are you going to do? Beg, borrow or start a new account?
I think you wrong slightly. In fact, most ppl fly about 2-5 hours per day but not all 24. Personally I rare fly more then 2 hours and 5 lives per day are quite enough for me (but i dont want such limitation of course). Second, if you VERY careful (not best, just careful), fly in faster plane when enemy, never fight w/o alt or number advantage and run if you havent such advantage, you can keep your live almost forever. But if everybody will follow that rules there will not fights at all. It will be most boring setup in CT history :rolleyes: Hope I will never see it
(sorry for my english)
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Originally posted by Oleg
Second, if you VERY careful (not best, just careful), fly in faster plane when enemy, never fight w/o alt or number advantage and run if you havent such advantage, you can keep your live almost forever.
In other words, fly like MaggieHawk.
One more time so nobody misses it:
Scenarios/Snapshots=limited lives
Combat Theater=not limited lives
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Originally posted by Reschke
Another thing that makes me a little bitter is the accusations about "staffers" not caring what happens in this arena. That is plain ridiculous. Believe me the effort is there and the input of time is there as well.
For a very small percentage of staffers I agree this is true and only at times. Or maybe you're seeing something I'm not 'cause imo it really doesn't show, beyond setting up and posting on BBS. But I've been wrong before, so please enlighten me.
I do not advocate limited lives in the CT at all. I was just pointing out how it was done in Warbirds, and that it wasn't baby-sitting. I wish we could have one night of limited lives in the CT but I just don't think we have the player support in AH for that type of stuff. Things/people were different in Warbirds and that made it possible for it to work. Even in Warbirds though they allowed 6 lives(because they couldn't differentiate from Vehicle/Plane lives) and within in the 3 hours of the event it was rare for somebody to lose all their lives.
Target for Tonight from Warbirds was very much like AH's CAP event, except it used limited lives, not roll windows and also started at a normal time. It was more of an event for squads to form up, plan some missions with clear cut objectives set by the staffer in a historical enviroment.
But I agree AH has enough events that there is no need to push limited lives into the CT. It just that some of the events are at bad start times, poorly run or poorly populated that leaves me longing for more.
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I must say that I am watching this thread drift from it's initial topic, wich was, how to make a CT week long scenario have a finite number or aircraft in it...
I have never participated in an AH Event or Scenario, unlike in previous experiences, where I was an enthusiastic entrant.
It never happened because of schedule restrictions on my part, nothing else.
But I think it is a bit unfair to go after "Staffers" like some of you are...Try to criticise constructively, taking care of these events is very time consuming and complicated to manage and we all do this for fun, having other priorities in RL to attend to.
I see now how complicated is is to have finite number of planes in CT setups.
I accept that limitation.
And I would like to say "thank you" to all that helped creating CT and keep it running. If I only had MA I already had left AH a long time ago.
Now, what we should do is open a new thread about "what we should do to make CT a better, improved and outstanding arena?"
Sparrow
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Originally posted by TheBug
Target for Tonight from Warbirds was very much like AH's CAP event, except it used limited lives, not roll windows and also started at a normal time. [/B]
Just FYI, CAP starts at 3:00 PM Eastern, the same time Scenarios Usually Start.
It used to start at 5:30 Eastern.
I can understand not liking the time, but thought I'd make sure you were aware of the change.
-Sik
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Gee I guess I am like a moth to the flame but here goes again. I understand all the concerns and have been on the opposite end of the argument before. So here goes my responses after a weekend of sneaking around in the game.
Oleg you are exactly right. It can be done but doing it that way will have the same effect as what you point out. That point being you will take away the fun factor...its not much fun to play like that even though that is probably very close to what it was really like in air combat during WW2. But many men flew that way as a means to survive again till the next day.
Bug thanks as usual for the comments and the thought provoking ideas. As I said up top after this past weekend I looked at it from a different point of view and yes I do see this game from a different view point than you guys do. We as a staff have some lively discussions on the staff only board about different setups and ideas to make this a better arena for everyone. So it doesn't get seen by you guys the everyday players; although once Brady stepped away the discussions haven't been nearly as spirited. :D
Last thing thoguh one day your campaign may sway a few "votes"; as with everything in life it takes time. !
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Originally posted by Sikboy
Just FYI, CAP starts at 3:00 PM Eastern, the same time Scenarios Usually Start.
It used to start at 5:30 Eastern.
I can understand not liking the time, but thought I'd make sure you were aware of the change.
-Sik
Appreciate the heads-up Sik, but I was aware of the time change. Personally I think it was a step in the wrong direction too. I think catering a whole event start time, all the time, to a Euro friendly time is silly and "shooting oneself in the foot". I think the CAP should start later in the evening and 2 out of 3 large scenarios should be in the evening also. The largest player base is eastern time or later, why cater to anything else? Trying to be fair you're actually making it unfair.
In Warbirds all but one event started in the evening(EST) and even with a player base half the size of AH it still had a greater turn-out for events(Well in its heyday:) )
The Squad Ops in AH, the only event in AH better than CAP imo, has an evening start time for Friday night is by far the most populated event in all of AH. On average even larger than most scenarios. And it is by squad invite only! Now there is nothing wrong having a Sunday Squad Ops( 1/3 of the size) to cater to the Euro players, but it is a separate event they don't try to fit all players in at one time. Why should CAP do the same thing? Why should every large scenario do the same thing?? If you ask me it is just wrong.
Once again thanks for the heads up Sik, and I don't mean to bash the CAP event, I really think it is a great event. Maybe that's why it's unreasonable start time bugs me the most, followed second(but related) the poor turn out.
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Originally posted by Reschke
Gee I guess I am like a moth to the flame but here goes again. I understand all the concerns and have been on the opposite end of the argument before. So here goes my responses after a weekend of sneaking around in the game.
Bug thanks as usual for the comments and the thought provoking ideas. As I said up top after this past weekend I looked at it from a different point of view and yes I do see this game from a different view point than you guys do. We as a staff have some lively discussions on the staff only board about different setups and ideas to make this a better arena for everyone. So it doesn't get seen by you guys the everyday players; although once Brady stepped away the discussions haven't been nearly as spirited. :D
Last thing thoguh one day your campaign may sway a few "votes"; as with everything in life it takes time. !
Reschke, just 'cause I know it's not apparent, I have no beef with you directly. I like you as a CT staffer and think you're doing an ok, yet distant, job. My only beef is with the CT staff as a whole, which unfortunately makes you a target of mine.
I understand you have a board and you may discuss things, but as a CT player there is almost no CT staff presence felt at all. This may be unjust, but it's the truth. Most of the CT staffers are at a bare minimum participation, and that's being generous. I really think the CT staff is lacking in leadership and direction. I really enjoy the CT and the players who frequent it. I try to behave myself in there out of respect to the players and the staff. But here (where I can't help but feel I'm defending, not attacking, something I like) I may get a bit harsh. And I can't really say that I apologize for that, just hope you can understand where I'm coming from. I try to stick with the truth, but that can be relative.
As always,
Vote Bug
:aok
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and I just used to think curtis and bug were crazy.
Why couldnt you guys give us little snap shots every once in a while in the ct? there are only 20 of us most of the time anyway. I for one have better things to do on the weekends than play computer games, but on a tuesday or thursday night I am all over it.
Why dont the CT staffers ask the 4 or so squads that fly every tuesday and thursday to help organize a real little 9pm scenario? or 10pm est. THat way, if the staffer were REALLY interested in his or her work, they could actually recreate a little bit of the battle they were interested in.
They dont have to do limited lives, or close bases, just next time bob comes around, have a ju87/110 raid with 109 escorts, intercepted by a group of hurricanes and a few spits at 9:15. How hard is it to make two missions and post them?
If you tried to organize it with the squads that show up I bet it would be easy and work reasonably well.