Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Krusher on July 06, 2004, 10:42:41 PM
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KINGSTON—The quest to find nine invaluable pieces of Canadian aerospace history took a controversial step forward as two Canadian Forces warships joined the underwater hunt for Avro Arrow models lying in Lake Ontario.
It's the first government foray into an ongoing search by several groups for the 1/8-scale models of the fabled plane. The models were crashed into the lake in the 1950s during production tests for what would become the only Canadian-made supersonic fighter jet.
Yesterday, two navy ships on regular training missions in the Great Lakes, the HMCS Glace Bay and the HMCS Kingston, used sonar to scan the lake bottom for any signs of the models.
They will then use a remote controlled submersible vehicle called the Phantom to investigate likely targets and to relay live camera images.
Capt. Paul Doucette, an Armed Forces spokesperson, said they found nothing on the first day of the three-day exercise. He admitted that the "chances of finding anything were very, very remote."
"It's like searching for a needle in a haystack. (The models) have been there for quite some time. All sorts of things could have happened to them."
The Arrow, with its needle nose, swept wings and huge air intakes was the world's fastest and most advanced fighter when it made its debut on Oct. 4, 1957.
But the newly elected Deifenbaker government cancelled the costly program in 1959 and ordered all 11 existing planes, five in flying condition — as well as all traces of the program — destroyed, for reasons that remain controversial to this day.
Bill Coyle, 72, who was an aeronautical engineer with A.V. Roe in Malton when the company developed the long-range fighter for the RCAF to intercept Russian bombers over Canada's north, asked the military to join the search.
"There's quite a bit of Canadian pride in that. (The Arrow) was years ahead of its time," said Coyle, patron of the Aerospace Heritage Foundation of Canada in Toronto.
"The name said it all. It flew like a great white arrow" on test flights over Toronto, Coyle said, even breaking the sound barrier over the city with a thunderous roar, something planes are not permitted to do today.
The models, three metres long and two metres wide, were fired from Point Petre, a small peninsula west of Kingston between 1954 and 1957. They carried on-board sensors that transmitted flight data and were also filmed from shore to fine-tune the plane's aerodynamics.
Some of the other search groups are unhappy about the navy's involvement although, no matter who finds them, the parts will inevitably end up in a museum.
Andrew Hibbert, president of Arrow Recovery Canada in London, Ont., called for the warships to wait until his search crew, which is scouring the same area, has finished.
"Our only beef with the navy is if they are scanning the area based on information they have gotten from our Web site," after years of research, he said.
"Up until this year, they had no interest."
But Coyle, who provided the navy with information, laughed at the idea that his group had taken material from anyone else, given that many of his members worked on the project for A.V. Roe.
He said his group bought the lost models from the Canadian government a few years ago with the understanding that if recovered, they would be donated to museums.
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Avro Arrow
(http://www.airforce.forces.ca/grfx/equip_gallery/historic_gallery/wallpaper/arrow4.jpg)
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NEVAR FORGAT TEH ARROW!! :mad:
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Originally posted by Krusher
KINGSTON—The quest to find nine invaluable pieces of Canadian aerospace history took a controversial step forward as two Canadian Forces warships joined the underwater hunt for Avro Arrow models lying in Lake Ontario.
It's the first government foray into an ongoing search by several groups for the 1/8-scale models of the fabled plane. The models were crashed into the lake in the 1950s during production tests for what would become the only Canadian-made supersonic fighter jet.
Yesterday, two navy ships on regular training missions in the Great Lakes, the HMCS Glace Bay and the HMCS Kingston, used sonar to scan the lake bottom for any signs of the models.
They will then use a remote controlled submersible vehicle called the Phantom to investigate likely targets and to relay live camera images.
Capt. Paul Doucette, an Armed Forces spokesperson, said they found nothing on the first day of the three-day exercise. He admitted that the "chances of finding anything were very, very remote."
"It's like searching for a needle in a haystack. (The models) have been there for quite some time. All sorts of things could have happened to them."
The Arrow, with its needle nose, swept wings and huge air intakes was the world's fastest and most advanced fighter when it made its debut on Oct. 4, 1957.
But the newly elected Deifenbaker government cancelled the costly program in 1959 and ordered all 11 existing planes, five in flying condition — as well as all traces of the program — destroyed, for reasons that remain controversial to this day.
Bill Coyle, 72, who was an aeronautical engineer with A.V. Roe in Malton when the company developed the long-range fighter for the RCAF to intercept Russian bombers over Canada's north, asked the military to join the search.
"There's quite a bit of Canadian pride in that. (The Arrow) was years ahead of its time," said Coyle, patron of the Aerospace Heritage Foundation of Canada in Toronto.
"The name said it all. It flew like a great white arrow" on test flights over Toronto, Coyle said, even breaking the sound barrier over the city with a thunderous roar, something planes are not permitted to do today.
The models, three metres long and two metres wide, were fired from Point Petre, a small peninsula west of Kingston between 1954 and 1957. They carried on-board sensors that transmitted flight data and were also filmed from shore to fine-tune the plane's aerodynamics.
Some of the other search groups are unhappy about the navy's involvement although, no matter who finds them, the parts will inevitably end up in a museum.
Andrew Hibbert, president of Arrow Recovery Canada in London, Ont., called for the warships to wait until his search crew, which is scouring the same area, has finished.
"Our only beef with the navy is if they are scanning the area based on information they have gotten from our Web site," after years of research, he said.
"Up until this year, they had no interest."
But Coyle, who provided the navy with information, laughed at the idea that his group had taken material from anyone else, given that many of his members worked on the project for A.V. Roe.
He said his group bought the lost models from the Canadian government a few years ago with the understanding that if recovered, they would be donated to museums.
Who can figure out the Canadians. The Arrow would have easily been the best interceptor in the world.
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Originally posted by storch
Who can figure out the Canadians. The Arrow would have easily been the best interceptor in the world.
It truly would have. I find it strange that the old century series of fighters were faster then most of today's inventory. I guess that back in the 70s the decision was made that all fighting would be subsonic so they made planes more maneuverable.
...and we still don't have a plane that can catch the Foxbat.
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Originally posted by storch
Who can figure out the Canadians. The Arrow would have easily been the best interceptor in the world.
An idiot named General Perkes (or some such) was convinced by the US military that missles were the way of the future and that fighters were obsolete...
...****.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
...and we still don't have a plane that can catch the Foxbat.
it's retired.
(http://www.fas.org/irp/program/collect/a12.jpg)
before you say it was for recon only, thats the a-12 version.
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Originally posted by Krusher
The Arrow, with its needle nose, swept wings and huge air intakes was the world's fastest and most advanced fighter when it made its debut on Oct. 4, 1957.
But the newly elected Deifenbaker government cancelled the costly program in 1959 and ordered all 11 existing planes, five in flying condition — as well as all traces of the program — destroyed, for reasons that remain controversial to this day.
Obviously they had to destroy all evidence of the program to hide the fact that the Arrow was using alien technology reverse-engineered from UFO's that went down in New Mexico and Nevada the '40s and '50s. The parts were smuggled in tourists' Airstream trailers from the Grand Canyon up across the country to a secret border location in North Dakota. A few even crossed through Niagara. Only nobody in the Canadian ministry would come forward to admit it since they had to answer to the UK and US governments. They didn't want to upset the balance of power! After all, a strong Canadian military would've been perceived as a threat to the US government and hostilities could've broken out. JFK knew this and he had to be rubbed out before he could initiate an arms race. That's why Washington has always insisted that Canada be treated as the distant step-child politically and militarily - because they knew that Canadian beer was superior to American chemical hogwash! So, as anybody can see, the Arrow program had to be terminated before McNamara found out and blabbed to the military-industrial complex. The repercussions of this are still felt today - just look at how American pressure caused a gold medal to be split between the Russian figure skaters and the Canadian pair! I read it on the Internet so it must be true!
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The engineers that worked on that project went on to become lead engineers for just about every big aircraft manufacture in Britain and the US as well as NASA. :(
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
it's retired.
(http://www.fas.org/irp/program/collect/a12.jpg)
before you say it was for recon only, thats the a-12 version.
What weapons did the A-12 field again?
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
before you say it was for recon only, thats the a-12 version.
Lockheed A-12 Blackbird (60-6925) at the Intrepid Sea-Air-Space Museum in New York. The A-12 was the initial variant of the Blackbird. Although outwardly similar to the later SR-71, it was actually slightly faster and had higher resolution downward photographic capability. The SR-71 differed to the A-12 by also having sideways photographic capability.
SR 71 a12 (http://www.sweptwings.co.uk/sr71_gallery.htm)
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Originally posted by hawker238
What weapons did the A-12 field again?
IIRC primary armaerment was air to air missles. Heatseeking and radar guided
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Originally posted by hawker238
What weapons did the A-12 field again?
Simple, really. It would fly up behind the target plane and jam its pitot tube up the exhaust pipe, disabling the enemy aircraft and forcing it to crash land while the Blackbird continued on its merry way. It had to use a chase plane to land, however, since the Blackbird's instrumentation would be hosed.
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Originally posted by hawker238
What weapons did the A-12 field again?
YF-12 Weapon systems. (http://roadrunnersinternationale.com/hughes.html)
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...and we still don't have a plane that can catch the Foxbat.
if IRCC from the wings channel the foxbat couldnt maintain its mach 3 speed for very long and when it did go to mach3 the engines had to be replaced. It also had poor maneuverability especially at low speeds. The F-15 was originally created to counter this threat and after the berlin wall fell it was discovered the the foxbat was not the plane the west thought it was. It's primary roll was bomber interception with the help of ground based radar helping to vector it to its target.
On a side note the F-14 remains the fastest Fighter with a top speed of mach 2.4 even today {its 30 years old BTW}
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A-12 was a CIA program that predated SR-71 or YF-12. That is indeed an A-12 in McGroin's pic.
YF-12 has a big radome and truncated "chines" and internal missiles (http://roadrunnersinternationale.com/hughes.html).
The surviving YF-12 is on display at the USAF Museum and you can find A-12's at the SAC Museum and a few other places. Unfortunately the A-12's are all painted black instead of the neato bare metal finish the CIA used for a while.
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Avro Arrow.. What a waste to scrap all those planes... :(
The USAF could have used them as supersonic target drones for missle testing....
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LMAO! :D
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Seriously though why scarp these cool planes? They could be used for flight research or at least put up in a museum.. Same with TSR 2..
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Seriously though why scarp these cool planes? They could be used for flight research or at least put up in a museum.. Same with TSR 2..
Agreed,
Their destruction seems to smack of a cover up.
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"Their destruction seems to smack of a cover up."
It was. If Deif sold them to anyone (apparently other countries were begging for the planes, thier revolutionary Iraqois engin and the plans) he would have looked like an ******* for ending the project.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Probably they were a threat to the vast US aircraft industry.
Hey, we gotta keep the colonies in their place.. ;)
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Yes it was all part of our great conspiracy for world domination MUAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA!!!
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Originally posted by storch
Who can figure out the Canadians. The Arrow would have easily been the best interceptor in the world.
Unfortunately they had no way to pay for it.
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Sure they did. There's a difference between being unable to pay for something and choosing not to pay for something.
For example, I am 'capable' of buying a Britney Spears CD, but I am unwilling to do so. Canada was in the same position, except instead of Britnet, they had a chance to buy air superiority and decided it was safer to just let ol' USA do the design so they could be consumers (buying US planes) instead of creators.
The lure of ready-made solutions is strong, and apparently for that government back then, it was strong enough.
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License-built aircraft I believe, not outright purchase of airframes. CF-18 for example.
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Nobody needs an interceptor. It would be a huge waste of money.
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Originally posted by GScholz
The YF-12 never reached operational status. The Mig-25 is still the fastest fighter ever.
The mig-25 is an INTERCEPTOR desighned to take out bombers it is not a fighter due to its lack of maeuverablity. It's the fastest interceptor however like so many other interceptors both east and west its now obsolete even in the interceptor role. The Sovits did have good success using it as a reconnisense plateform since any aircraft launched to intercept it would easily be outrun by it's mach 3 capabilities
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The missles fired at the EF-111s caused one of the F-15s to be shot down by a SAM.
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The Cancellation of the Arrow was done for a number of reasons IMHO.
It was far ahead of its time, and would have had a major impact on the aircraft industries of the U.S. and G.B.
The US and GB were never going to buy or support it. It would have been economically dangerous to do so.
Bottom line was the $$.
The Canadian governmnet couldn't see spending the $$ to keep the program alive, given that the 2 largest potential customers wanted nothing to do with it.
A decision I whole heartedly disagree with, but nonetheless it is there.
As far as cutting them up, I think it was done partly to prevent the sale of any of them to the US or GB. Literally everything about the Arrow was destined to be destroyed, not in the interest of national security, rather more of an economic issue again. ( and to a large extent I am sure to stop someone else from copying the aircraft).
We should have kept the Arrow, and equipped the RCAF with it. It would have spoken for itself, and probably lead to many contracts for the purchase of the Aircraft.
Short sightedness on the part of Diefenbaker for sure.
The Rat Bastage.
Had we carried on with the Arrow, the Canadian aviation industry would look quite different today, I am sure.
Sad chapter in our history.
RTR
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Originally posted by GScholz
Interceptor is spelled with a "c". The Mig-25 was indeed designed as a bomber interceptor, however it did well as a fighter as well. In the 1991 gulf war an Iraqi Mig-25 was the only Iraqi plane to score a kill on a coalition plane (Marine F-18), and he got away with it. Other Mig-25 unsuccessfully engaged EF-111 while evading their F-15 escorts at will.
" The MiG-25 saw combat during the Gulf War. A MiG-25PD recorded the only Iraqi air-to-air kill during the war. It shot down an F/A-18 on the first night of the war, then went on to fire missiles at A-6 and A-7 attach aircraft, while avoiding escorting F-14 and F-15 fighters. In another incident, an Iraqi Foxbat-E eluded eight American F-15's, firing three missiles at EF-111 electronic warfare aircraft and forcing them to abort their mission. In yet another incident, two MiG-25's approached a pair of F-15 Eagles, fired missiles (which were evaded by the F-15's), and then outran the American fighters. Two more F-15's joined the pursuit, and a total of ten air-to-air missiles were fired at the Foxbats, none could reach them."
source?
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Originally posted by Thrawn
The engineers that worked on that project went on to become lead engineers for just about every big aircraft manufacture in Britain and the US as well as NASA. :(
yup...
the lead design engineer for the SR71 BlackBird was the 1 who did the Arrow....
the lunar lander was designed by an Arrow designer....
so on so forth....we are invading the US from the inside...muhahahaha...muahaha hahahahahaha.....muahahahahah ahahahahahahahahahaha
guess :D
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For a good book on the Arrow and the subsequent fate of the amazing engineers that were responsible for it, read 'Arrows to the Moon'.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1896522831/qid=1089233594/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/002-4041021-0054449?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
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from one of your "sources" gscholz
The MiG-25 that was clocked at Mach 3.2 by the Israelis achieved this speed while running from an intercepting F-4 (which can barely manage Mach 2 on a good day--before running out of fuel). Upon landing, both engines in the MiG had to be replaced.
Victor Belenko, the Foxbat pilot who defected in 1976, stated that the top speed of the MiG-25 was Mach 2.8, but flight above Mach 2.6 was difficult because of a tendency of the engines to overspeed. Victor related that MiG-25 pilots were in fact restricted to flying below Mach 2.5 except with special permission.
My God! Look what this thing is made of! Why, the dumb bastards don't have transistors; they're still using vacuum tubes! These engines are monsters! Maybe the Sovs have a separate refinery for each plane! Jesus! See these rivet heads sticking out, and look at that welding! They did it by hand! Hell, the pilot can't see a thing unless it's practically in front of him! This contraption isn't an airplane; it's a rocket! Hey, see what they've done here! How clever! They were able to use aluminum! Why didn't we ever think of that? How ingenious! It's brilliant!
MiG Pilot : The Final Escape of Lieutenant Belenko
it should be noted that your sources all derive their info from a discussion thread and not from an actual "source" such as Russian design companys
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The planes that the Arrow was designed to intercept were not fielded till the mid 80s and only then in single digits.. A fleet of hyper expensive single role aircraft that have no enemy.
That is what killed the YF-12.. its cool but what do you do with it. The Soviets never developed a supersonic polar bomber till 30 or so years after the Arrow was scrapped.
As to why the plane was scrubbed from history. If it was available for airshows to show up the latest and greatest from arround the world(or the F101s that we bought from the americans in the end.) Then it would have been a far worse embarassment then it was as a mystery.
Great american planes of the 50s and 60s that disappeared for what ever political or military or bugital reason are just statistics.
If its a canadian plane its a legend for some reason.
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The Arrow goes with Vampires, Starfighters, Thunderchiefs, etc. Good planes for their days.
This is the True Canadian Legend... (http://www.mistyfjordsair.com/photos/1mirrorlake.jpg)
Nothing beats a DH Beaver.
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I thought for some reason he was disputing the Mig-25 shooting down the F-18, but his post confuses me as well.
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For me it's not just the plane, but the incredible team of engineers we lost to the US and GB. They made the Arrow, we saw what they would make next for other countries.
"This is the True Canadian Legend..."
That and the Twin Otter. :)
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Originally posted by GScholz
What exactly are you disputing?
Im not disputing anything really. I was just pointing out the the sources aren't really reliable. One is a discussion thread {no experts} another is a extreme vacation kinda site and the first one is really just hearsay.
All the sites have some facts but also have some err...embeleshments. And none offer actual first hand knowledge
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Originally posted by Thrawn
"This is the True Canadian Legend..."
CRJ
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Poor Canadians. They were going to all that effort to build a world-beating interceptor to protect their country with.
And what was the US doing? Deploying a nuclear rocket to kill Soviet bombers with.....over Canada, of course.
The pure thought of it is funny in a sad sort of way, even knowing that in reality the GENIE really wasn't all that bad.
J_A_B
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If by 'genie' you mean massive nuclear warfare, then it was exactly as bad as we thought, we just lucked out because nobody rubbed the bottle.
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GENIE was the designation for the MB-1 (later known as the AIR-2A) nuclear air-to-air rocket which the USAF used.
By "not that bad" I mean that it was rather small yield by nuclear standards with a fireball "only" about 1500 feet across.
I guess the thought was that a ~1kt explosion over Canada was better than a 100 kt explosion over Chicago.
Look up "davey crocket" if you wish to learn of an even more misguided US weapon idea.
J_A_B
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Seriously though why scarp these cool planes? They could be used for flight research or at least put up in a museum.. Same with TSR 2..
There is a TSR 2 at Duxford. Apparently the TSR 2 research helped with the design of the Tornado.
(http://www.thunder-and-lightnings.co.uk/tsr2/full/dux00307.jpg)
Originally posted by WilldCrd
On a side note the F-14 remains the fastest Fighter with a top speed of mach 2.4 even today {its 30 years old BTW}
I thought the F-15 could do mach 2.5?
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Originally posted by J_A_B
Poor Canadians. They were going to all that effort to build a world-beating interceptor to protect their country with.
And what was the US doing? Deploying a nuclear rocket to kill Soviet bombers with.....over Canada, of course.
The pure thought of it is funny in a sad sort of way, even knowing that in reality the GENIE really wasn't all that bad.
J_A_B
True.:rofl
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I thought the F-15 could do mach 2.5?
I'll have to research that. Im going on info I got from the discovery wings channel {recorded it} The episode was all about the F-14 and the designers stated that the max "unclassified" speed was mach 2.4 and that it was the fastes "fighter" aircraft in the world {as in pure fighter}
Later in the show a a navy CAG was interveiwed about the newest varient and when asked what the max top speed said "officially its 2.4 mach the rest is classified".
I shall endevor to dig al little deeper
ya gotta love the gov. and their little secrets
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I found this info initially
F-14 (http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-14.htm)
F-15 (http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-15.htm)
on the f-14 specs note that the F-14/a engines produce 20,900 lbs of thrust. Later models produce 27,000lbs of thrust each.
lower on the spec sheet it states max speed as mach 1.88, Im guessing this wasnt revised after the engine upgrade.
The F-15 does indeed have a mach 2.5+ top speed at "sea level" I wonder how fast at highr alts
Its engines produce 25,00;bs of thrust each. Soo Im figuring they are fairly evenly matched on top speed when you figure in wheight of the A/C and thrust to wheight ratio,s..
Other fact sheets I have read give slightly different numbers and some just dont jive {like having the same speed with lesser engines}
I suppose this is the "classified barrier"
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Originally posted by GScholz
The F-15 can not do M2.5 at SL. How old are you if you don't mind me asking?
It cant? The FACTS say that it can
1,875 mph (Mach 2.5-plus at sea level).
ill be 36 in august
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FAS.org is usually pretty reliable, and they cite the 2.5 mach at sea level as well, but I find that pretty hard to believe:
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-15.htm
If true, that's some pretty amazing horse power and structure strength. I think the speed is at alt, and the actual speed at sea level is 1.23, but that's according to a geocities page so, while it sounds plausible, meh....
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The Foxbat was a big nasty threat right up until we got ahold of one.... then it was a big nasty chuckle-producer. Fast is nice but all ya gotta do is avoid it, or run'em out of gas, their range is limited at best.
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Hmm the Mcdonnald site {they build it}
say it does mach 2.5 at 45,000ft
F-15 builder site (http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/fighter/f15e.htm)
I tend to beleive the guys that build it
Maximum speed: Plus 1,600 mph. (Mach 2.5) at 45,000 ft.
so the facts at FAS.org are wrong I stand corrected
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They were a real threat, as evidenced in the first gulf war when they got the only modern air to air shootdown of a high technology F-18 when fielded by IRAQ.
For just a moment, consider that. Iraq (the country voted least likely to succesfully shoot down a cessna) was able to kill an F-18 then escape pursuit with a single plane.
Imagine what a fleet of those fielded by Soviet pilots could have done, especially in the 1970s and early 1980s?
Sure, they were primitive, but a well thrown rock is primitive too, and it can kill ya just as dead.
Don't underestimate your enemy or their equipment.
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I take it you've become an aircraft enthusiast in recent years then. Buy a few books, read up on planes, aerodynamics and history ... then come here and shout about facts.
1.its been just a tad longer than recent years.
2. What makes you think I dont know enough to shout about facts? at least when I post sources they arent from some extreme vacation sight thats just trying to get people to pay 18,000 dollars for a ride in a mig-25.
I think its you that should read up on stuff more before YOU start shouting about facts
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ladies, ladies.... no need to have handbags at 10 paces over it. now kiss and make up.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Ok, then I take it you're just a tad slow then. So far you have been wrong in just about everything you've said, and you display complete ignorance in your knowledge of aerodynamics, and all your conclusions are wrong.
excuse me? I was merely quoting some sources so no I was not wrong their info was erronous. And as far as being wrong you've got no room to be pointing fingers. As far as calling me ignorant I would suggest you go learn more about the topic at hand before you go calling someone else ignorant. Your attempt at personally attacking me indicates a lack of knowledge on the topic and a level of frustration that compells you to respond with insults to cover up your lack of knowledge on this topic.
For some reason you feel the need to vindicate yourself when nobody was diminishing what you said...perhaps your compensating for some short comming. I dont know nor do I care thats for you to figure out.
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ROFLMAO! how long did you sit there going thru all those posts to type up all that? Its obvious we dont agree on much.
Just for the record though I dont rely on tv for all my info. I get alot of my info out of my cereal boxes, especially the ones with the spider-man secret decoder ring.
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Back on Topic oe maybe not..Too bad my service with all of it's infinite "wisdom" Is decommissioning the F-14 by 2007 for that "Super" Hornet P.O.S.
They should have just upgraded the Tomcat again.
The "Tomcat 2000" I feel would have been the wiser choice. Faster. More range, not near as noisy, and could carry more.
By the way they are cutting up F-14's for scrap out here at NAS Oceana. I just got the windscreen off one (would have got the canopy but was too large/heavy for my car) Anybody want some parts?
TOMCAT
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I do!! i do!!
can you think of anything really cool and can be shipped to UK for not much money?
thanks :)
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You should get an ejection handle and attach it to your office chair.
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i'll see what I can do.
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ROFLMAO! how long did you sit there going thru all those posts to type up all that? Its obvious we dont agree on much.
Don't waste your time with that idiot, Wldcard. He has the same modus operandi every time.
When questioned he attacks. When you fire back he attempts to blame you for attacking. Screw him, he's not worth wasting breath on.
Crumpp
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For GScholz.
I had a visit to the F15 (C?) Squad up here in Iceland some 2 years ago.
The CO told us that the top speed was a tad above Mach 2.2
He did not mention altitude.
For a realistic interception he mentioned that from takeoff Keflavik to Akureyri at very high alt they needed 10 minutes. I think that was on a long range combat loading setting.
If you have any means to use that data for calculations etc, I'd be happy to know about what you get.
Best regards.
Angus
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Coolridr
I would love a hunk of an F-14, damn shame the navy is getting rid of them!
Could you email me: gtora2@gmail.com
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Originally posted by Coolridr
Back on Topic oe maybe not..Too bad my service with all of it's infinite "wisdom" Is decommissioning the F-14 by 2007 for that "Super" Hornet P.O.S.
What's wrong with the super Hornet exactly?
Pongo, It's a legend because it was a Canadian Fighter project which you can count on the fingers of one hand.
And also because it was years ahead of it's time.
Some features of the Iroquoi engines are now industry standard.
It's flight controls were a step toward Fly-by-Wire.
What more do you need to consider it a legend? :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by AVRO1
What's wrong with the super Hornet exactly?
Pongo, It's a legend because it was a Canadian Fighter project which you can count on the fingers of one hand.
And also because it was years ahead of it's time.
Some features of the Iroquoi engines are now industry standard.
It's flight controls were a step toward Fly-by-Wire.
What more do you need to consider it a legend? :rolleyes:
categorically the most advanced fighter of it's day bar none and nothing even technically close until the '70s.
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Yeah, Like when we invade Norway. :rolleyes:
Crumpp
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Originally posted by Thrawn
An idiot named General Perkes (or some such) was convinced by the US military that missles were the way of the future and that fighters were obsolete...
...****.
It wasn't a fighter, it was an interceptor and it was obsolete as well as a waste of money.
What you may not realise is that it is actually a good thing these where canceled. They had no mission and no purpose. They had very short range and by that time, the US and Canada had already figured out that the ICBM was the main threat, not bombers.
The US canceled the mach 3 XB-70 and it's mach 3 escort, the Mach 3 Rapier as well for the same reason.
The Mig-25 was only ever clocked at Mach 3 when it's engines where running out of control and burning up. The XB-70 bomber ( 1950's) was faster than the Mig-25. The A-12 interceptor (1962 iirc) was MUCH faster than the Mig 25 and so was the Sr-71. ( 1964)
All said, Canada's plane served no purpose and was canceled.
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F-18E/F's main advantage is that it is replacing practically everything (including the older F-18's). Even the EA-6 Prowlers are going to be replaced by F-18's.
This not only greatly simplifies logistics and training, it also gives our CV groups unheard of multi-role capacity.
J_A_B
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Hey coolrider if you CAN get an ejection handle for me that would be to cool! Im thinking of building a simpit and choirboys idea struck me as kinda novel
emails in sig
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The seats have been removed so there are no ejection handles. There may be the Canopy jettison handle though since I believe those were on the right side of the cockpit. I'll look and see what I can find.
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Originally posted by NUKE
All said, Canada's plane served no purpose and was canceled.
Then why did was spend more money on purchasing a bunch of crappy Voodoos from the US after the Arrow was cancelled?
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Then why did was spend more money on purchasing a bunch of crappy Voodoos from the US after the Arrow was cancelled?
Maybe they liked crappy Airplanes?:p
Crumpp
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Actually the Voodoo was a very good aircraft.
But, it sure wasn't on par with the Arrow.
RTR
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now this is an interceptor :D
(http://www.paulnann.com/images/pn_w2954.jpg)
(http://www.apbs53.dsl.pipex.com/images/dinkyaircraft/lightningreal.jpg)
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Originally posted by Coolridr
The seats have been removed so there are no ejection handles. There may be the Canopy jettison handle though since I believe those were on the right side of the cockpit. I'll look and see what I can find.
cool thanx
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Hehe, nice to see the BAC Electric Lightning in here.
On par with the fastest even today, very good climb and quite maneuverable.
Probably better than the Starfighter....
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Pilots view, Lightning vs. F-15
http://www.thunder-and-lightnings.co.uk/lightning/memories.html
Quite where to start is difficult - two high performance aircraft, but from differing eras. The Lightning concept dates back to a period just after the end of WWII, though it was not until 1947 that an experimental study contract was approved, and another two years before a contract was given for two prototypes and an airframe to be used for static tests. The P1 took to the air on the 4th of August, 1954. With that in mind, it must be appreciated that a gap of some 18 years exists separates the development of the two aircraft, so some of the differences are bound to be significant. The F-15 Eagle was barely on the drawing boards in 1967, though by 1974 it was challenging the MiG-25 "Foxbat" for various climb to height records and also the absolute altitude record for this type of aircraft. A little more of that later on.
The overall impression was that both aircraft had very similar performance and handling characteristics, both were a joy to fly. Considering the age difference, the Lightning's performance was totally outstanding when introduced into service, and when it finally bowed out, it could still out-climb most of its successors. Its initial rate of climb was 50,000 ft per minute. The Mirage IIIE climbed initially at 30,000 ft per minute; the Phantom F-4M managed 32,000 ft per minute; the MiG-21 could only manage 36,090 ft per minute; the F-16A's initial rate was 40,000 ft per minute, and the Tornado F.3's 43,000 ft per minute. So the Lightning reigned supreme. Only later was it surpassed; the F-15 Eagle, and the MiG-25 both have initial climb rates as good or better. The Lightning's time to FL 360 in re-heat was 2.5 minutes, in this respect the Eagle produced a similar figure, though this could vary depending upon its configuration.
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The Ye-155R-1, Ye-155R-3, and Ye-155P-1 prototypes were used for a number of highly successful attempts to break world aircraft performance records in 1965, 1967, and 1973. They were given the cover designation of "Ye-266". The accomplishments of these machines included a 1967 1,000 kilometer close-circuit speed record of 2,920.67 KPH (1,814.87 MPH); and 1973 records for a climb to 30,000 meters (98,400 feet) of 4 minutes 3.86 seconds, plus an absolute altitude record of 36,240 meters (118,900 feet). Fedotov set the altitude record, executing a zoom climb until the engines flamed out, and then coasted up and over to the top of the arc. One suspects that the aircraft was flying with all the aerodynamic grace of a brick at that point. Once the machine fell back to lower altitude, he regained control and relit the engines.
source (http://www.airtoaircombat.com/background.asp?id=30&bg=204)
SR71 records
May 01, 1965
Absolute Altitude: 80,257.86 ft (24,390 meters)... YF-12A # 60-6934
Absolute Speed Over a Straight Course: 2,070.101 mph...YF-12A #60-6936
Absolute Speed Over a 500km Closed Course: 1,688.889 mph...YF-12A #60-6936
Absolute Speed Over a 1,000km Closed Course: 1,643.041 mph... YF-12A #60-6936
July 27-28 1976
Altitude in Horizontal Flight: 85,068.997 ft (25,929.031 meters) SR-71A. World Absolute and World Class Altitude Record for Horizontal Flight - 85,068 feet, surpassing the previous record of 80,257 feet set by a Lockheed YF12A in June of 1965. SR-71 flown by Capt Robert C. Helt, Pilot and Major Larry A. Elliott, RSO.
note: this is a sustained altitude
source (http://www.wvi.com/~sr71webmaster/srrcd~1.htm)
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One suspects that the aircraft was flying with all the aerodynamic grace of a brick at that point. Once the machine fell back to lower altitude, he regained control and relit the engines.
that took some cojhones
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This is turbine only, of course. The X-15 crew might have some comments on altitude and speed records of their own.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
This is turbine only, of course. The X-15 crew might have some comments on altitude and speed records of their own.
the X-15 holds the record for carrier launched
the others took off with their own power
IE. ground to altitude records.
Their a bunch of different classes
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Originally posted by GScholz
WilldCrd, the SR-71 holds the record for absolute altitude in level flight, not absolute altitude (Mig-25).
yeah I know. Thats what I was saying.
Altitude in Horizontal Flight: 85,068.997 ft (25,929.031 meters) SR-71A. World Absolute and World Class Altitude Record for Horizontal Flight - 85,068 feet, surpassing the previous record of 80,257 feet set by a Lockheed YF12A in June of 1965. SR-71 flown by Capt Robert C. Helt, Pilot and Major Larry A. Elliott, RSO.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Sorry, my mistake.
no problemo
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Why, the dumb bastards don't have transistors; they're still using vacuum tubes!
There's quite good reason why in some cases vacuum tubes are more reliable than transistors.
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Yep, that's pretty common knowledge :)
I'm not sure if MiG-25 ever carried AA-missiles with nuclear warhead but some of its older American counterparts did that.
Electro Magnetic Pulse is bad news to transistors and, at least then, tubes could stand it better.
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Originally posted by WilldCrd
the X-15 holds the record for carrier launched
the others took off with their own power
IE. ground to altitude records.
Their a bunch of different classes
Ahem..
(http://pcweb.mycom.co.jp/news/2003/04/22/21al.jpg)
:D
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The X-15 flew quite a bit higher then the SpaceShipOne.
354,300 feet top altitude of X-15
328,491 feet altitude of the SpaceShipOne
On future flights, the SpaceShipOne will probably exceed the X-15 record, but not yet.
EDIT: Added numbers.
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really? didnt know that! cool, i retract my above *ahem* :D
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Followup regarding the F-15 numbers from FAS.ORG.
I wrote the following to them:
Hi there,
On the page: http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-15.htm
The top speed of the F-15 is listed as 2.5 mach at sea level. According
to http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/fighter/f15e.htm and other
sources, that speed is at altitude (45,000 feet on one website) and the
sea level speed is approximately half that.
Best regards,
(redacted)
This was their response:
We believe our error was in semantics not technical details. Let me
explain.
As you may know the speed of sound (or Mach 1) varies at different
altitudes. What we meant when we said the f-15 goes 2.5 Mach at sea
level was not that the physical plane was at sea level, but rather that
the Mach (or speed of sound) we were referring to was at sea level. If
you have more questions please don't hesitate to ask. Also we will
clarify our page.
Thanks,
John
(redacted)
Federation of American Scientists
Strategic Security Project Intern
My faith is FAS is restored, their answer makes sense.
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Originally posted by J_A_B
And what was the US doing? Deploying a nuclear rocket to kill Soviet bombers with.....over Canada, of course.
Soviet long-range SAMs were equipped with 10 and 20 kiloton warheads. We had special designation for missiles that were supposed to carry nuclear load, "N", meaning improved reliability. The main difference was that this missiles had theromostats for warheads.
This stuff could be usefull back in 60s-70s. Our S-200 SAM were supposed to be used against formations of B-52s. In this case a 20 kiloton missile with range of ~250km and capable of reaching 40,000m was a reasonable thing.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
The Arrow goes with Vampires, Starfighters, Thunderchiefs, etc. Good planes for their days.
mmmmm....F104....mmmmmm
They got one in Dallas, maybe it'll be out when we visit during the convention this year.