Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: Mister Fork on July 07, 2004, 12:14:33 AM
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BlackSea Battles: Soviet forces vs. Luftwaffe May 1944 (SFMA terrain)
Russian Forces:
B-26
Mosquito (Pe-2)
IL-2
Hurricane IIC
Hurricane IID
Yak-9U
Yak-9T
La-5
C-47
Panzer
Tiger
M-Series
Ostie
Axis:
Ju-88
Ju-87
Ju-52 (C-47)
Bf 109G-10
Bf 109G-2
Bf 109G-6
Bf 110G-2
Fw 190A-5
Fw 190F-8
Fw 190A-8
Panzer
Tiger
M-Series
Ostie
Fuel: 1.5
Radar: Historical @ 500ft
Vis: 12 miles
All other CT norms
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No La-7, Grits. :D
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They dont bother me anymore. I dont know what I did different, but in the last Hungary set I had no trouble with them (well, no more than any other plane). Yak-9U is really the better plane anyway. :)
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Can you limit 109G10 someway?? maybe half of bases or...... 3-5 perks....
thanks
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no 109f4? :(
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Yak-9U is more than a match for the G-10.
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yeah okay. g10 does not belong. Otherwise it would be a good looking setup,...... for russia. yuck.
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The only consideration for me is, when was the G-10 operational? I dont know, and I'm too lazy to go look it up. Its really simple, if it was not operational in May '44 take it out, if it was leave it. No "gameplay" weight should be given to the decision.
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The good thing about Herr Fork is, he sticks to his setup and is not influenced by whining or constant change requests.
Keep up the good work Herr Fork.
P.S.Could we have the radar setup where fighters don't make the bases flash? Only Buffs and GV's make bases flash, hehe .
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.....109f4?..... :(
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Grits i would agree 100% except for that little plane called the CHog. We never get it, cause of gameplay, hell, often we wouldnt get f4u1s vs their historical opponents because of gameplay.
"We would run a 1944 setup, but the japs dont have the ki84 so it just wouldnt be fair...."
Yeah. Whatever.
g10 was probably there, or at least in production then, but just use the same measuring stick for both allies and axis.
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I think both sides of every set should stick to what was available at the time regardless of playbalance. I have never been one of the "Chogs are too Uber" group. What I have said is "If you are going to spend all week dodging joust and extend F4U's it doesnt matter much if its a -1, -1D, -1C or -4 so you might as well enable them all."
Having said that, the -1C was not only insignificant in numbers produced, it was also pleagued with problems with the 20mm guns. The G-10 was a mainstay fighter and was produced in large numbers. I still do not feel that is a reason to keep the -1C out of set if it was in service at the time covered by the set.
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The 109G-10 and the Yak-9U were both Fall 44 fighters. Neither were in service in May 44. That being said, the CT has to have a balance to it, so its either LA-5/Yak-9T vs 109G-6/G-2/Fw190A as the best fighters or its 109G-10/Dora vs Yak-9U/LA-7 plus the above regardless of what month its supposed to be, but you cant get all technical and ask for one to be taken out when neither were really there.
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Apparently the G10 was in production in 1943 and the La-7 around June 1944. What a difference a month makes, at least in this scenario.
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Originally posted by ergRTC
Grits i would agree 100% except for that little plane called the CHog. We never get it, cause of gameplay, hell, often we wouldnt get f4u1s vs their historical opponents because of gameplay.
"We would run a 1944 setup, but the japs dont have the ki84 so it just wouldnt be fair...."
Yeah. Whatever.
g10 was probably there, or at least in production then, but just use the same measuring stick for both allies and axis.
SIMPLY AXIS BIAS CT STAFFERS :rofl
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Originally posted by DktrEvil
P.S.Could we have the radar setup where fighters don't make the bases flash? Only Buffs and GV's make bases flash, hehe .
The good thing about Herr Fork is, he sticks to his setup and is not influenced by whining or constant change requests.
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Arlo, what kind of fps are you getting, and what is your aa af settings?
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This is something of a whine I understand, but I just shiver when I see the axis getting the g10 at the drop of a hat (and it does belong in this setup historically, not sure if it was in service, but it definitely was around in 44), when the allies do not get planes because of gameplay. (good examples are spit9s in what? what year were they introduced? or spit14s, or p51s, and particularly f4us). I completely understand that a zero ki vs f4us is unbalanced, but no more so than g10s vs yak 9us.
for your viewing pleasure.
(http://141.161.196.100/climb.gif)
(http://141.161.196.100/speed.gif)
Help me here ct staff, when was the last time the axis were limited in aircraft because of gameplay?
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Originally posted by ergRTC
Arlo, what kind of fps are you getting, and what is your aa af settings?
35-55 on runway depending on nearby objects. 80-90 peak. Low as 20 in a big furball.
(http://jollyrogers.info/CAG44/aaaf.jpg)
(http://jollyrogers.info/CAG44/lod.jpg)
(http://jollyrogers.info/CAG44/vidset02.jpg)
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Originally posted by CurtissP-6EHawk
SIMPLY AXIS BIAS CT STAFFERS :rofl
No, they just dont like YOU[/b] Maggie.
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Originally posted by ergRTC
This is something of a whine I understand, but I just shiver when I see the axis getting the g10 at the drop of a hat snip
Erg, those charts dont tell the whole story. The 9U is every bit an even match for the G-10. Personally, in a 1v1 duel I'd take the 9U over the G-10 every time, not that that counts for anything. Actually, for once I'd like to see larger numbers on the Axis side so I can log some time in the 9U, since it is one of my favorite planes.
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it is more a question of skill in the G10. it can out run above 10k below it is a fair fight.
personally i dont really like to fight with a yak unless i have E advantage and even then i manage to die somehow. Usually it is a fair fight between yak9u and G10, but i never seem to die to a yak in a 109G2:confused:
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"Apparently the G10 was in production in 1943"
Deliveries began in October 1944.
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and the ki 61 is a great match for the f4u but people seem to just look at the top speed in that case.
I agree that the yak can take the g10, I am just pointing out the disparity between climb, and speed with the g10 vs everything but the spit14 is immense. That disparity is only in speed for the f4u against its opponents, yet we get it gameplayed away, or more often the scenario is just not run.
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Originally posted by Squire
Deliveries began in October 1944.
G-10 should be out if this is supposed to be May '44.
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A book I have on the Luftwaffe has II./JG 52 flying the G-10 in February 1945 with a picture of Leutnant Heinz "ESAU" Ewald's G-10. The picture is dated Feb 25/44 in the corner. And yes, it's a G-10.
Jester, however, has a references October 44 entry date. It's a toss up really but I'm sticking with this setup.
In reality, if the G-10 was truly in service, it was something historically the Soviet air force pilots had to deal with - a superior aircraft. No different than Luftwaffe pilots had to deal with faster Mustangs or P-47's later on it the war in Europe.
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Ummmmmmm.... the allies have faster planes at the end of the war? Planes like the p47 and the p51? Yeah. Okay. Maybe some people should pay more attention.
(http://141.161.196.100/speed2.GIF)
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let's switch the g10 for the f4 :)
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109f4................ :(
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Yo Deej! Kill the Skynyrd man, they are OK, but that sig is 10 miles long!
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um..............nah ;)
shortened it a bit, happy...............ya commie. :p
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Ok, first, off, for the record. Its a fine setup, and I never advocated any changes to it. Nor do I now. G-10 vs Yak-9U, seems ok by me. Makes zero diff about what month in 44 its supposed to be. My original post was a response to the idea of the G-10 or the Yak-9U being taken out.
...seperate discussion now, just history stuff, for interest only:
"A book I have on the Luftwaffe has II./JG 52 flying the G-10 in February 1945 with a picture of Leutnant Heinz "ESAU" Ewald's G-10. The picture is dated Feb 25/44 in the corner. And yes, it's a G-10."
Thats Feb 45, not Feb 44. The 109G-14 wasnt even in service in Feb 44 and it preceded the 109G-10 by months. Its not hard to do some digging and find the info, and I wont argue it here any further.
II/JG52 Orbat info:
http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/biijg52.html
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Squire, did you miss this comment? "Jester, however, has a references October 44 entry date. It's a toss up really but I'm sticking with this setup. "
Yes, I understand there are references to a much later service date, but your data is the THIRD different service date I've seen... (sigh). On a side note: the link you referred to is a 'personal' site and the data on any 'personal' site is as subjective as a Michael Moore film... Not accurate, but a pretty good reference point.
Now, if you could answer when the P-51D entered service, then I'd be willing to scoop up that info... wait a minute... I've got an idea. See my next posting...
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now thats a silly jab. You may not like his analysis of historical events, but that does not make the event fictitious.
I really dont see anyone screaming about removing the g10, so i would just leave it, I would just like this remembered the next time a pacific setup is not used because the axis dont have the ki84, or the p38 and f4u is excluded for gameplay. That is all.
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No hard feelings Mr Fork, ya, I know there are more than a few places where the dates dont exactly mesh up. I posted that link just for info, I have sources in books on the October/Fall 44 date.
P-51D? Well, July 44 or later to be certain in the ETO. I dont have anything right in front of me. P-51B is Dec 43, thats an ez one. Intro dates can be a real pain in the rear end to nail down sometimes, no doubt about it. Ltr.
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Just some info in the P-51D... and the russian front...
Another transition in aircraft occurred in May 1944, this time to P-51s. With no interruptions in combat missions possible during the summer months, the work became almost ceaseless. On 2 June 1944, 24 of our P-51s took off as part of the historical shuttle mission to Russia. 30 men comprising crew chiefs and armorers flew on B-17s that bombed enemy targets en route to the Soviet bases. In Russia, the squadron scored its first victories with the new aircraft. These victories were also the first scored by American pilots operating from Russian bases.
* Reference http://www.325thfg.org *
Maybe that will give you some narrowing down on the time frame for the 51
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Anything that says they were D's though Stream? its the D model that is hard to nail down. I have gone through a few references since last night, and no definitive luck with a date. The 325th flew B/C models first, before gradually switching over, so it seems unlikey the first Mustangs they got were D models. Its odd, because of all the stuff written about the P-51 (tons), you would think it would be mentioned more often than it is.
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I know the requests and suggestions are based on the difference of opinions about what plane set is Historically accurate. This will always be debated so I request that HTC no longer publish what the new setup will be. Let CT'ers find out when they enter the arena.
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so I request that HTC no longer publish what the new setup will be.
Not really HTCs thing. We are self governed, hence all the love:D
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Replace HTC with whoever sets up the arena's
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nimrod? no, I would rather see the haggling. Besides, if they dont announce, we just ***** when it arrives, rather than before.
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Originally posted by Squire
Anything that says they were D's though Stream? its the D model that is hard to nail down. I have gone through a few references since last night, and no definitive luck with a date. The 325th flew B/C models first, before gradually switching over, so it seems unlikey the first Mustangs they got were D models. Its odd, because of all the stuff written about the P-51 (tons), you would think it would be mentioned more often than it is.
Warloc... I have contact with one of the pilots that was on that Russian Shuttle mission... The emails I posted about the P-51 Ace, Arthur Fiedler was one of those pilots... I can ask him what 51's he flew... I know he flew the D.. I don't know if he flew the B or C models...
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All in all, the Combat Theater operators deserve a lot of credit for getting matchups as well as they do with incomplete plane sets and historical operational information often difficult to pinpoint.
Some sources have no dates more specific than year, some focus on first aircraft operational, some on first squadron or other unit operational, some on first real combat impact.
Always takes some time too for enough new planes to begin to dominate the action.
Ultimately the scenario in Combat Theater can be reasonably close to or very remote from the actual matchups even by percentage extrapolation. Good thing CT has lots of ardent aviation enthusiasts to fine tune the scenarios.
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Axis staff "gets" the G-10 but refuses to enable the F4U-4 :aok
We could use a few more allied CT Staff members. There should only be as many ACTIVE axis staff as allied staff and should be made to fly x number of time through out the week. If they dont have time to be a part of the CT comunity, then its time to replace them.
So I challange you CT players to whine like he11 or forever shut the F@#$ up!
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Ahh! What happenmed to my sig!?!
Arlo did it, you commie!
ok, I'm good...... but Arlo is still a commie!
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Yeah, curtisphawk, I am starting to agree with you. Albeit I am only on several hours a week, but maybe we should go and look at the hours online in the CT for the staffers.
Now, I know that doing the ct staff thing takes time that I would not want to give to this game, hell, if it were up to me, my ct rotation would just be pacific, and two setups in the pacific. That would be rather simple. Come to think of it, maybe I could be a ct staffer.....
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for example if mister fork is fork, he has 13 minutes in on his own setup.
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Originally posted by DktrEvil
I know the requests and suggestions are based on the difference of opinions about what plane set is Historically accurate. This will always be debated so I request that HTC no longer publish what the new setup will be. Let CT'ers find out when they enter the arena.
You are wrong...........
The debates are good thing all the time they discuss the topic and not become just "crying about bule bird or my La7" ;)
It should be discussed by players in order to give constructive input........
Anyway there allways will be players that will like/dislike setups.....
But it should be discussed and positive input should be brought.
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Originally posted by ergRTC
for example if mister fork is fork, he has 13 minutes in on his own setup.
I think somebody mentioned this once before, I'm not sure who though??
Vote Bug!!!:aok
Hell... Vote ergRTC:aok works for me too
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Originally posted by ergRTC
for example if mister fork is fork, he has 13 minutes in on his own setup.
Yep. Even getting married and taking vacation these past two month's I've managed to keep up with my duties.
Forks time for June: 04:11:28
Erg's time for June: 04:10:41
Hmm.....
:D
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i realy dont see why the G10 has to stay just give them the G2 G6 they are fast planes and with great climb and the G6 has same guns as the G10
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Exactly! I didnt mean to pick on you particularly, just COULDNT REMEMBER THE NAMES OF THE OTHER STAFFERS... nudge nudge wink wink know what I mean?
If the staff is going to be this odd nepotistic group, at least they could be an active one.
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Drop the g10, give us the f4. There ... problem solved.
;)
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Originally posted by Mister Fork
Yep. Even getting married and taking vacation these past two month's I've managed to keep up with my duties.
Forks time for June: 04:11:28
Erg's time for June: 04:10:41
Hmm.....
:D
Spawning a GV at some obscure base, while you run off to watch a Will and Grace marathon doesn't count for logging time in the arena.
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HEHEHEHEH