Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Seagoon on July 07, 2004, 01:48:15 PM
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Hi Guys,
I hate HOs, but I've never managed to develop a strategy for the merge with a co-alt bandit that avoids them without getting shot-down.
For instance, merge occuring - I go nose down and dive, he keeps coming and shoots up the back and cockpit of my aircraft. I go nose up - even more disastrous, now my belly is full of lead. Level turns to left or right usually expose my tail or leave me with a diminished e-state as he blows by and goes into the vertical hoping to rope - either way he's accelerating past me. I generally don't fly good rollers so a roll and flip is usually out of the question. So I just go head to head and HO guns blazing.
So, how do I best handle the co-alt merge in my main planes: the 109F (with gondolas), A6M5 and the LA5 without getting fragged?
- SEAGOON
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next time you see me, ask me to take you to the DA and work with you on this.
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Roll right or left just as he gets into gun range. Don't pull one way or the other ( up, down left or right) You want to still go screaming past the enemy so he can not get a shot.
This is just one of many techniques I'm sure.
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A simple roll, or slide, usually throws off most people who try and HO you at merge. No need to do anything too radical as to give up position unless your entire intention is "escape" post-merge. Look to try and maximize your position post-merge (ie, you want to be in a superior position). The actual merge point is not usually where the fight ends, it should be where it starts and can also be where it is decided.
If you want some merge practice or tips, drop me a line:
soda@hitechcreations.com
We can meet for an hour and talk/demo merges and it might be very enlightening.
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Give him a squirt at 1000 yard or a little more then skid left while dipping below his gunsight - if you pull up you are giving him a lead target but dipping below he'll lose you.
If he's tracking you he'll probably miss as it's difficult to make out changes to linear movement at range - however if he doesn't dip or skid he's going to fly directly into your 1000 yard shot.
He'll be highly po'd and call you names.....if you are good at snap shooting dip below then if he breaks across yr nose use hard rudder to snap shoot him as he goes by - this also causes a lot of name calling...
Never ever stay in a straight line and never pull up in front of him, once past the other a/c keep going till - an old Spit trick was to zoom vertical and them come back at you with lots of E - they can't do it anymore so just cruise out of range and set him up again.
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Heya Seagoon,
check out the following link, study it hard, and each of the other links on this page ( Mastering The Merge parts1, 2, 3, lead turns, and opening moves) these all pertain to Air Warrior, so disregard all the Head On stuff to a degree......
Mastering The Merge (http://www.netaces.org/genmerges/merges.html#title)
everything in these write-ups , lectures will help you in dealing with different type merges.........
Avoiding the HO (http://users.eastlink.ca/~sconrad/hodefense.htm)
:)
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I never (95% of the time) shoot on the merge, and only very rarely do other pilots land shots on an initial merge. Durring a fight, there can be many merges, and these are much harder to avoid, so spray away on those. On the initial merge however, I have found that going low right or left of the enemy makes the hardest target. Also, when nearing gun range, do not hold your course steady, you must be changing your direction, even slightly to ruin their leading shot. I usually roll slightly and pull up a little. I usually manage to survive the merge, but get myself killed shortly after. You will have to ask someone else what to do after the merge. :rolleyes:
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How to merge in AH--
First things first, alt is life. Climb to at least 25k, the more the better.
Fly at no less than 450 MPH towards your unsuspecting victim. Don't want anyone to sneak up on your 6!
Open fire at 1000 yards, 800 if you want to save ammo. Continue firing until you pass him.
If he makes an evasive maneuver--oh no, he sees you! immediately dive to the deck and "egress" back to your base
He he doesn't maneuver and you miss him on the first pass, make a level extention out of ICON range (you don't want him to see you reverse!)
Climb ack to alt, then turn around and make another attack. Very frequently you will have to change targets at this point.
Well.....that's how I see a lot of others doing it anyway :)
J_A_B
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Or you can use this tried and true method.
Fly a great turning plane (Spit 5, Zero or FM2 for example). Hang just outside your airfields AAA range and never fly over 500ft. Fly in straight , level lines and when an enemy attacks just turn as tight as you can without stalling out.
This option is great for three reasons.
1. If the enemy turns with you, he'll be dead within a few seconds.
2. If the enemy hits the ground (lawndarts) near you, you'll get the kill for free.
3. If the enemy times it perfectly and flies very well and blows you away with a great shot, you can call him a skill -less, alt dweeb boomer.
Sorry, just had to show the flip side of the coin.
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who says you gotta MERGE....is there a rule saying YOU GOTTA MERGE.....
its all about WHAT to do WHEN to do it.....
chit I got HO'd in the DA on 1st merge...go figure that
lets say your in a F6F.....Shane the girlman is in his Lala.....say your 15k....merge.....or make em dive....which do you choose.
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Originally posted by Seagoon
So, how do I best handle the co-alt merge in my main planes: the 109F (with gondolas), A6M5 and the LA5 without getting fragged?
Shane has the right of it... Seeing is believing. Shoot me or any trainer an email and we'll show you... I will search my films for a good example to post for yas...
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Originally posted by SLO
who says you gotta MERGE....is there a rule saying YOU GOTTA MERGE.....
Ah, the war cry of the Timid Rainbow Warrior...
ack-ack
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Like to ask a question on the merge! I been reading your replies on the merge! I been finding out that, if you try and drive your car, lets say, without looking left or right you will probably crash!
I have beening finding out that you have to master controlling the plane with viewing side, semi-side and whatever is equally important.
Like to get your opinions on it!!!
Thanks!
McCuskey! VF15
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Originally posted by bandit752
I have beening finding out that you have to master controlling the plane with viewing side, semi-side and whatever is equally important.
Having your views set correctly and learning how to use them quickly and instinctively is critical in AH. You need to be able to maneuver without looking forward while tracking your enemy because this is the only way you can "Read" your enemy and respond correctly. Learning all the maneuvers in the world, and perfecting them while staring forward in the cockpit does little good if you can't see the opponent to know when to execute them. You have to be able to watch you enemy in order to know which item to pull out of your bag-of-tricks in order to defeat him.
If you actually watch some of the better AH pilots, their visual (called situational awareness) ability to read and react is incredible but often the maneuvers they employ are mostly simple and not always crisp. Seeing, understanding, and reacting (or even anticipating) is what tends to produce more effective pilots.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Ah, the war cry of the Timid Rainbow Warrior...
ack-ack
you taking it in here now monkey dweeb
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Following up TracerX comments. How you merge should depend on what your plan is after the merge. The merge tracerx described is the perfect tool for setting up your first turn.
Say you plan on doing an immelman after the merge. If you initially dive under the merge, then (timing is critical) pull up right before the merge, you have just executed a pre-turn, and should have an advantage if the enemy is also starting a loop. Plus in that situation, if you were lower going into the merge, your radius point is also lower, which puts you in a better position at the top.
If you plan on doing a chandell, you would offset your entrance to the merge farther left or right. If you plan on just blowing on past, some of the other 'avoid the ho' merges would be appropriate.
By heading into the merge one direction, and switching to another heading right before the merge, you are acomplishing 2 things. 1 making yourself a hard target and 2 putting yourself in position to start manuvering first.
Just some points you may want to consider while trying to figure what will work best for you.
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Originally posted by J_A_B
How to merge in AH--
First things first, alt is life. Climb to at least 25k, the more the better.
LOL... as soon as I read the first line, I knew it was going to be an entertaining post. You're right, a lot of pilots fly so that if they don't have a sure kill, they will surely leave ...
First, I try to be in a situation where I have the opportunity to get some separation from my opponent before the merge. If I am too close to do that, the best method I have used for flying past on merge without getting HO'd is to barrel roll in a moderately tight spiral through and past the opponent.
I don't know what people define as an HO (other than pointed directly at each other), but I have given and received VERY good near-HO snapshots on merges that I cannot complain about.
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"I don't know what people define as an HO"
I think of a HO as the guy who never makes any real attempt to merge and simply blares straight in at you with guns blazing.
The guys who do the off-angle type frontal shots aren't really doing HO because they make an effort to keep AWAY from the other guy's guns; the HO pilot completely ignores the actions of his opponent.
At least that's how I view it.
J_A_B
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Thank you soda for the reply,,,
I been finding your advice to be very helpful..I went in the training area and Just praticed on keeping a eye on the target!!
And that is not easy,,I find that the stick controls for the viewing has to be just right for you to follow the target!!!
I know there must be a dozen or so profiles for the x45 stick and was wondering who here would be willing to share there profiles!!
Thanks Again,,,
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Glad I could help bandit. I think there were a couple of good x45 threads not too long ago in this forum, you might want to run a BBS search to see what that gets you. One, in particular, was posted that had some stick configs for the x45. A quick search yielded this:
x45 settings (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=86771&highlight=eagler+X45)
I don't use an x45 stick but I think they are fairly common/popular in AH.
A good way to build "natural" use of views is to practice on easy targets initially, then build up to tracking hard stuff. Go offline and make mock attacks on ground structures, viewing them while reversing to make another pass. This should be easy because the structures don't move, only you do, all you have to worry about is running into the ground (thus make quick looks forward, then immediately back to view the target). Then I often suggest you go up and practice on drones. Make mock attacks from all angles and use the views to track them. This is medium-easy, they are moving, but at least they move in predictable paths. Then, you can do to the TA and just follow someone around a bit (ask if they mind).
A new player in AH typically has trouble tracking more than 1-2 other aircraft at a time, experienced players can track probably 3-5, the really good veterans can probably handle up to 10. You don't want to get target fixiated on any one person, you need to have a overall awareness of what is happening around you, like when you drive a car and check the mirrors for cars around you. It's a bit of mental file-keeping, you note where each person is, which ones may be immediate threats, which ones are longer-term threats, and what they relative energy states are. Usually I end up classifying them in that manner, people who are further from you, and below you, are less likely to be immediate threats while someone above you and close are more likely to cause problems. Then I make sure I update my info on the more immediate threats more often so I know what they are doing and can react accordingly.
One other thing, incase you didn't know, is you can set your head positions custom for each aircraft. While using the view you wish to set (for example, hold the 2 key on the numberpad for rear-view), use the arrows and Page Up/Dn keys to move your head around the cockpit until you get the view that you feel best allows you to see what is happening in any one direction. Once you get something you like, while stil holding that view, press F10 to save it. Now, any time you return to that view you will have the custom one you saved. You need to do this once in each aircraft as each is different, but overall the custom views can be vastly better than the defaults.
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TracerX and Murdr have it right, but I usually simplify things when teaching a low seperation merge like this. If you want to avoid the HO follow these easy steps:
1) Begin a ~45 degree nose down dive at about d3000. If your opponent doesn't dive with you (HO dweebs just keep you in their gunsite, which isn't 'diving with you' because you get lower faster) begin to level out before he gets in firing distance (about d1000).
2) Pull up into him such that you pass right behind him. To avoid the HO dweeb you'll need to practice this timing a little. Ideally you should pull pretty hard and not be able to get your nose on him. Now you're in the middle of a perfectly timed immel.
3) Take advantage of the fact that you're only a ~90 degree turn off his high 6. Short of some fairly complex evasives or a lot of running, you've got a strong winning position. Remember that while you may be slightly slower then he is, you'll be able to turn inside of him.
-pellik
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Heh, the Verticle lead turn is second only to the Rope-a-dope in satisfying kills. I can't believe people still fall for it, but I guess as long as there are new players, there will always be someone to lead-turn.
In a furball, I'm usually facing a head-on situation while I'm actively engaging another bandit. I usually just us a combination zero-g dive/skid to get past the enemy. It's USUALLY enough to spoil his aim, but leaves me with energy coming out of the merge, so that I can continue what I was doing before the HO pass. The key here is to always be going fast enough to get past them, even if they're in an n1k2. The only time I get that slow (intentionally I mean) is once I've pulled a guy away from the furball and I'm reasonably sure we'll have a 1v1 fight.
When that happens, he's got to be a fast fighter like an La-7, Tiffy, or 190 and they are always behind me, so it makes HO avoidence somewhat problematic lol.
But you know... sometimes I just plain forget that people will HO you, and they get me almost everytime, and I think "man, I should have seen that coming"
-Sik
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So... Anyone got a vid showing correct merge tactics?
Thanks,
- SEAGOON
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the problem is there is no "set move" that will give ya the great merge.
Pelliks move is great for co-alt/ co-e enemy. The enemy will give the room for this one as ALOT of guys go for the HO.I got a chance to work on this one with him for an hour or so one night, and its one of my favs....tho I'm not as good with it as him. :)
But ok so now you have 3K alt on a bogie...co-e, you won't use the same merge as now you'll be giving away your alt to get down to him, and with the extra speed you have from that big a dive, you'll have a hard time turning inside him on the immel. So in this situation maybe you start a slow spril climb to either entice the enemy to foolishly climb to you, or just to slide around to his 4-7 oclock area to make a run at him.
So the thing is, there are a bunch of merges. The trick is to learn ALL of them, and then use the right one for the situation that you are in. And one other thing to think about... a vertical merge that works real good on an FM2, isn't likely to work as well on a 109 or spit. Just one more reason to be pulling your hair out in front of your computer :D
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Originally posted by SLO
you taking it in here now monkey dweeb
Taking what in here?
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Taking what in here?
ack-ack
His rainbow flag :geesh: :D
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Originally posted by Murdr
His rainbow flag :geesh: :D
People may over exagerate my alts but I don't think anyone could call me timid.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by MaddogJoe
Pelliks move is great for co-alt/ co-e enemy. The enemy will give the room for this one as ALOT of guys go for the HO.I got a chance to work on this one with him for an hour or so one night, and its one of my favs....tho I'm not as good with it as him. :)
But ok so now you have 3K alt on a bogie...co-e, you won't use the same merge as now you'll be giving away your alt to get down to him, and with the extra speed you have from that big a dive, you'll have a hard time turning inside him on the immel.
Actually what I love about this merge is that you can use it with an excess of energy. I'll put my plane in a shallow dive a little early to try and hide exactly how much energy I'm packing, then dive into an obvious vertical seperation merge as I get closer. If my opponent doesn't dive with me I know he's an idiot and I can afford to be overly aggressive to get the kill fast. If he does dive with me I just pull into a mid to low G immel and watch him do the same trying for the snapshot. If he extends out I'll just zoom up and level out to rebuild energy while he runs. If he doesn't level out I go into a double immel. Then maybe a tripple. If he gets greedy I can watch him start to stall out. Then I've just performed a rope maneuver. If he breaks off early to avoid getting roped look at the new situation. I'm sitting there with a notch or two of flaps ready to hammerhead straight down on an enemy maybe D700 directly below me who is probably not comfortable with how slow he's going. I can retract my flaps and have a suitable energy advantage, or I can cut throttle and saddle up. The fight is pretty much mine. This is especially true in american fighters which prefer nose down turning.
(This is where I start explaining this with you as the pilot so it doesn't sound like I'm trying to brag)
Now let's say your the one comming in to the fight low. Start your dive nice and early. If he doesn't dive with you you'll probably get a good shot stalling out directly underneath him. If he goes for the HO you'll just force him to invert and maybe split-s to track for the shot (this is my favorite quick kill merge on n00bs. Try to time your pulling up to pass just below him and once your going almost vertical roll 180 and drop in on his 6. He will probably try to vert. scissors with you, but the energy states are in your favor after his poorly thought out split-s. This is particularly devastating against la7s). If he dives with you just watch him to see what he does as you pass. If he pulls hard into an immel he is fighting for position and you should extend. If you are confident about energy states you can take this merge with a hard immel or pitch back and do pretty well in the right plane match up, but I don't want to start getting into merged fight tactics here. If he pulls up slowly just do the same, and you'll have wasted much less E as you didn't dive so fast. This 'lets both wuss out' version is very common against 190s and other dweeb BnZ fighters. The idea here is to fly a great big figure 8 pattern. You extend out in a shallow climb, he immels and starts to dive on you. You split-s at about d3500 and use the split-s like your initial seperation dive. If he is really cautious you'll have to start in with overshoot merges to get the kill.
There are situations where this isn't a suitable merge, but when is something a pilot should figure out for himself.
-pellik
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lets say your in a F6F.....Shane the girlman is in his Lala.....say your 15k....merge.....or make em dive....which do you choose.
Merge and go to town.
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Originally posted by Seagoon
So... Anyone got a vid showing correct merge tactics?
Thanks,
- SEAGOON
P-38 film (http://www.hispanicvista.com/ahfilms/film62.ahf)
This film shows to good merges in the beginning. One merge is with a relatively coalt and co-E F4F and the other merge is against a higher Spitfire Mk IX that tried to bounce me.
ack-ack
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Actually avoiding a HO is very easy to do....
The 1st thing to realize is that the merge starts at 5.0...most folks are reactive not proactive...
@nd thing to do is decide what merge your flying...are you co-alt higher or lower...are you co-e or pos or neg...I'll assume co-e/co-alt for now...
I've got three basic options...an angles opener, an energy opener or a "read and react"...the 3rd is the toughest by far. Will assume I'd like a phonebooth fight so we'll go angles....at 5.0 I'll start to look at what con is doing...assume he's flying right at me level for now...I'll fly to a point a few degree's of him...I want some horizontal seperation...at 4.0 I'll start a gentle dive I'deally I'll be a bit below and to the side at 2.0 usually if the con wants to HO he'll go nose to nose about now go down and "off nose a bit then at 1.4 or so pull up and in to him...bout 1 in 100 he even hits you...if he's flying straight you pull up and into him literally trying to Zoom thru him...I'll cut my throttle here to maximize angles gain...basically your flying an oblique vertical lead turn.
Tons of films around from AH1 show this type of stuff pretty well...