Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: X2Lee on July 07, 2004, 08:39:29 PM
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I was under the impression that the stall limiter was turned of in the main arenas, now I see its set on 2?
So is this a concession to the relaxed realism gents who cant fly?
I thought we we getting a flight model but its just a damned dweeb setup? Some one correct me if Im wrong.
Ill keep my 180 bucks a year in my pocket if we are flying in the kindergarten arenas now....:mad: :mad: :mad:
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SL was always an option in AH. Why should it be different in AHII?
1: Players who use it apparently need it.
2: Players who use it are still dead meat.
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2: Players who use it are still dead meat. [/B][/QUOTE]
nope, its set on 2 you are flying it at 2 even if its unchecked.
do you need it?
do you want it?
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Heh. Oh you mean the "stall limit angle of attack" enviromental arena setting!
(http://jollyrogers.info/CAG44/stallAOA.jpg)
That doesn't mean you're flying with stall limiter on even if you have it unchecked.
Questions:
1: What was the original default slAOA arena setting for the MA?
2: What does setting it to "2" actually represent? Is it actually "twice" the normal AOA or does it represent something else?
3: Does it even affect those flying without SL on?
I'm finding that my stall limiter is off.
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i believe the AoA has always been set at 2.00...
i could be mistaken in my recollection, tho'...
fire off an email to HT/Skuzzy...
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Make a training arena for this crap. The Main should not have any "relaxed Realisim" settings.
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The only thing 'relaxed' around here seems to be you people's brains... ;)
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Geez...the things folks will find to ***** about really amazes me.
:rolleyes:
Whats the difference between someone wanting to use this setting and someone using combat trim? Thier plane obviously won't handle as well as yours and you should eat them up no matter what. Its not that big a deal.
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Originally posted by ATC
Make a training arena for this crap. The Main should not have any "relaxed Realisim" settings.
I used to say that, and still agree largely with the thoughts but...
AH, and particularly the MA is rife with compromises to realism. The most glaring example would be in the department of engine management. we have only a throttle seting and a WEP key. Engine damage is not even modeled except for battle damage. In the "realism" department a pilot would have to constantly manage (and do it well if he wanted to get home) these types of things;
cowling flaps or radiators
air/fuel mixtures
prop pitch
prop rpm
engine rpm
manifold pressure
multiple power adders (German planes in particular)
Air traffic at bases is another glaring example, people land when/where/how they want, no concern with other planes in the pattern or on the tarmac. Many don't even consider the gamieness of a neon sign over your head that indicates not only the type of aircraft but the exact closure rates from 3+ MILES away.
I could probably be talked into having full engine management in the game. I could also be talked into a CT like icon system. The ATC thing would be annoying to say the least and you'd have to do a LOT of arguing to convince me we need that (and friendly collisions for those who ignore the ATC) in our game.
The point being this is a game, and it is a game that caters more to gamers than simmers (at least in the MA) although I'm sure that'll get me flamed. If you want to attract gamers you need to make it more like Quake (okay, so I am out of touch with the latest FPSers avvailable) and get the less experienced folks to the point where they can fly without crabbing along due to a rudder that is out of trim. I have no problem with the availability of these 'aids', since they offer the user no advantage. Just be glad we don't have 10K spawn points and KOTH type maps :D
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I was thinking about this earlier today.
I have no problem with other people using the stall limiter. It's a crutch that takes them out of the fight, but allows them some time to acclimate to the arena.
But it's an option.
I was wondering if it wouldn't be a good idea to work the perk system to account for certain game options. For example: If you fly with the Stall limiter on, your perk modifier goes down by X. If you fly with DOTDAR disabled, your perk modifier goes up by Y. If you fly with your GPS disabled, your perk modifier goes up by Z. If you fly with enemy Icons disabled... ect.
While I don't really care about perks all that much (my favorite planes are all free) it might add some reward for those who choose a more challenging mode.
-Sik
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Originally posted by X2Lee
nope, its set on 2 you are flying it at 2 even if its unchecked.
So AH2 forces people to fly with the stall limiter on but you're the first person to notice this? Doesn't that sound a bit odd? Have you actually tried turning it on to see what it does?
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x2lee , sorry but you are mistaken.
Try enabling the stall limiter and changing the number offline. See what happens. Try changing the number without stall limiter enabled- it'll have no effect.
People who fly with the stall limiter on are at serious disadvantage. The person that doesn't have it on will always outturn the guy who does.
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yeah wow, what pyro said.
I think you morons should be forced to fly with stall limiter on for a couple days just demonstrate how much of a stupid waste of time this thread and your complaining has been.
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Originally posted by Pyro
So AH2 forces people to fly with the stall limiter on but you're the first person to notice this? Doesn't that sound a bit odd? Have you actually tried turning it on to see what it does?
What a neat idea. lmao
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Mine is on. Come kill me, it should be easy. The fact that you are complaining about this shows your skill level. Its not about how hard you pull on the stick. Its about outfling/outsmarting your oponent. I killed spitVs in a turn fight with 51s and p40s. On the other hand, I had my arse handed to me in a spitV by Slapshot and others in 38s and 109s.
Whats the problem anyway? You don;t like easy kills?
Edit: Sudjestion for more reallism, since it seems to be a problem. Set up a 20mm gun on your screen and everytime you get a pilot wound, fire it at your head. It will make the experience more real for you and the BBS more quiet for us. :rofl
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Actually someone made a post on our mail list about the stall limiter, and suggested flying offline setting the stall limiter(stallAoA) to 0.05 verses the 2.00 that is the norm, then compare the 2 different settings. and it does show a big difference. It is where X2Lee is coming from. Now with that said, not sure if anyone knows what the actual setting of this was in early beta, or in AH1..........the setting was thought ( read that as " was thought" ) to be set at 0.05 in early beta of AH2...not saying it actually was...
not sure where any of this shows his skill level:confused:
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(pssst - also suggested flying with those two settings with SL off. Lee's having a hissyfit over being forced to use stall limiter.) ;)
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ROFL!
Very funny topic:)
I bet SR71 can out-turn Spit V SL on :)
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Originally posted by Pyro
So AH2 forces people to fly with the stall limiter on but you're the first person to notice this? Doesn't that sound a bit odd? Have you actually tried turning it on to see what it does?
yeah i did , i turned it to .50 off line and I got my first unrecoverable stall since the beta.
it was set at what during beta?
its now double/ triple that.
its set so easy that imo its turned into RR
Dale always said that woulndt happen yet it seems like it is.
for the guys who think this is a whine about someone having the stall limiter on, its not. Its about arena settings set on easy mode.
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Originally posted by dedalos
Mine is on. Come kill me, it should be easy. the experience more real for you and the BBS more quiet for us. :rofl
yup dedalow you are an easy kill.
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Originally posted by X2Lee
yup dedalow you are an easy kill.
hmm, I believe I said that first. Watch out though, I may trick you and turn SL and CT off. Nothing will be able to save you then, muahahahahah
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Originally posted by X2Lee
for the guys who think this is a whine about someone having the stall limiter on, its not. Its about arena settings set on easy mode.
More like a very good example of someone going off about something they don't understand. :D
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Originally posted by Arlo
More like a very good example of someone going off about something they don't understand. :D
heh, I'd rather be wrong than right in this case. So i hopes you are right Arlo.
and dedaloes
since you are online right as we speak I am in the DA waiting on yer bad arse ;-)
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Was thinking I was stalling less in AH2 because I had gotten use to flying the new game during beta. I just thought the lack of stall was because I was flying better, not that the game had been changed.
What was the AOAstall setting during Beta? are we now playing a different setting? if so why?
RHIN0
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I'm not following you X2. If the box is unchecked, it is not on. It doesn't matter what the arena config is set to. We're not forcing anybody to fly with it on.
What the number controls is at what point the stall limiter truncates your stick input to prevent you from stalling. At a setting of 2, that means the stall limiter will truncate your elevator control when the plane is 2 degrees short of max aoa. Max lift occurs at max aoa, so the smaller this number is, the less of a detriment the stall limiter is to turn performance.
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Ok - so we can make this CLEAR.
In EACH pilots preferences they can turn on or off the following.
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/ahhelp/images/flight.gif)
Per the help page.
Enable Stall Limiter adjusts the maximum angle of attack (AoA) below the stall. The stall limit value is set with the StallLimitAoA variable in the Arena Settings. Also make sure the Stall Limit Enabled box is checked in the Arena Settings FlightModeFlags.
Since in the MAIN ( And SE ) Arena the Stall Limit Enabled box is NOT checked in the Arena Settings FlightModeFlags whatever the StallLimitAOA is currently set to does not make any difference.
Is that correct ?
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Originally posted by X2Lee
heh, I'd rather be wrong than right in this case. So i hopes you are right Arlo.
and dedaloes
since you are online right as we speak I am in the DA waiting on yer bad arse ;-)
I hope I am not online right now cause I am at work. What gave you that idea anyway? just curius.
PS. keep trying, you may get my name right, lol
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Originally posted by Pyro
I'm not following you X2. If the box is unchecked, it is not on. It doesn't matter what the arena config is set to. We're not forcing anybody to fly with it on.
What the number controls is at what point the stall limiter truncates your stick input to prevent you from stalling. At a setting of 2, that means the stall limiter will truncate your elevator control when the plane is 2 degrees short of max aoa. Max lift occurs at max aoa, so the smaller this number is, the less of a detriment the stall limiter is to turn performance.
Well then, good Sorry for my rant, even ultra cool doods like me gotta spew ever now and then :cool: :D
Im still working on yer name daydalas
:p
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Im still working on yer name daydalas
The line in his sig is a ded giveaway
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Originally posted by WilldCrd
The line in his sig is a ded giveaway
Damn Icarus. if I cant even spell Daedalus how would I get a clue from greek mythology?
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Originally posted by Edbert MOL
In the "realism" department a pilot would have to constantly manage (and do it well if he wanted to get home) these types of things;
(1) cowling flaps or radiators
(2) air/fuel mixtures
(3) prop pitch
(4) prop rpm
(5) engine rpm
(6) manifold pressure
(7) multiple power adders (German planes in particular)
(numbers added by me)
3, 4 and 5 are all the same control, which you CAN adjust in AH2 independently from...
5 and 6 which are also the same control, i.e. throttle/boost/manifold pressure
I've got 2 small joysticks for my left hand to control each of these two.
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Oops. Remove the 5 from the line about 5 and 6 :)
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Originally posted by RTGorkle
(numbers added by me)
3, 4 and 5 are all the same control, which you CAN adjust in AH2 independently from...
5 and 6 which are also the same control, i.e. throttle/boost/manifold pressure
I've got 2 small joysticks for my left hand to control each of these two.
3 and 5 are NOT the same, they have distinctly different controls, but both do affect 4 so I get your point.
Late war German rides had two different types of "WEP" (I am not an experten on the LW mechanics but one was a water/alchohol injection and the other was pretty much nitrous oxide), each was used differently and were controlled separatly.
_________________
Just spell it "deadalot", thats what the scoring pages call him :D
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Originally posted by Edbert MOL
I used to say that, and still agree largely with the thoughts but...
AH, and particularly the MA is rife with compromises to realism. The most glaring example would be in the department of engine management. we have only a throttle seting and a WEP key. Engine damage is not even modeled except for battle damage. In the "realism" department a pilot would have to constantly manage (and do it well if he wanted to get home) these types of things;
cowling flaps or radiators
air/fuel mixtures
prop pitch
prop rpm
engine rpm
manifold pressure
multiple power adders (German planes in particular)
Air traffic at bases is another glaring example, people land when/where/how they want, no concern with other planes in the pattern or on the tarmac. Many don't even consider the gamieness of a neon sign over your head that indicates not only the type of aircraft but the exact closure rates from 3+ MILES away.
I could probably be talked into having full engine management in the game. I could also be talked into a CT like icon system. The ATC thing would be annoying to say the least and you'd have to do a LOT of arguing to convince me we need that (and friendly collisions for those who ignore the ATC) in our game.
The point being this is a game, and it is a game that caters more to gamers than simmers (at least in the MA) although I'm sure that'll get me flamed. If you want to attract gamers you need to make it more like Quake (okay, so I am out of touch with the latest FPSers avvailable) and get the less experienced folks to the point where they can fly without crabbing along due to a rudder that is out of trim. I have no problem with the availability of these 'aids', since they offer the user no advantage. Just be glad we don't have 10K spawn points and KOTH type maps :D
we do have engine RPM control dont we?
i know we did in AH1.
batfink
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The only thing bad about the stall limiter is that it might confuse newbies who wonder why they can't get a plane to spin in a game that advertises realistic plane models.
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Originally posted by mechanic
we do have engine RPM control dont we?
Sure, or manifold pressure control, or boost control, or any ONE of those. What we have is the 6 or 7 different controls melted down into 1 or 2 controls. AH2 changed nothing that I can see WRT engine management from AH1, they did change the fuel management (results not methods).
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Originally posted by -MZ-
The only thing bad about the stall limiter is that it might confuse newbies who wonder why they can't get a plane to spin in a game that advertises realistic plane models.
Well if newbies want i cant teach them how to spin a 38 tottally out of control...Im a friggin expert at it
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Originally posted by Edbert MOL
Sure, or manifold pressure control, or boost control, or any ONE of those. What we have is the 6 or 7 different controls melted down into 1 or 2 controls. AH2 changed nothing that I can see WRT engine management from AH1, they did change the fuel management (results not methods).
After AH2 is running smoother perhaps this will be addressed. OR it could be a feature of TOD.as it stands right now extra engine management features are prolly low on the list. Alot of new guys are still struggleing with the basics ....like stall limiter and combat trim. Not to mention flaps, dive flaps compression and getting the hang of fuel management
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There was an excellent thread about this a while back, where Pyro said:
Originally posted by Pyro
I used to be of the school of thought that more engine management would be a good thing. But as I looked into it more, I found that a lot of my beliefs about the subject were based on fallacies. I think the desire for this is based on a couple of things. The first is more immersion through realism. That’s a good thing as long as it’s balanced. Otherwise, it gets to be more like a poorly edited 3-hour movie that would have been better if it were only 2 hours long. I think the second reason is because people want to be able to get an advantage for putting in extra work into learning something. That’s not a bad thing either, but to do that just for the sake of it is counter to the first reason.
I think there’s a lot of assumptions made about he purpose of engine management and that’s what I would like people to specifically look at.
In the first post, Vulcan states “I like the fact that good engine management can give you an advantage in combat.” I think that is an idea shared by many. But is it true? I have many books on the subject, but off the top of my head, I cannot think of a single account given where the pilot is tweaking his engine controls in combat to give him some perfect combination that results in an advantage. On the contrary, I have discussed a wide range of subjects with vets and when I inquired about what they had to do engine-wise during combat, everybody I’ve asked has said that they just shoved everything on the throttle quadrant full forward until the fight was over. I also get the feeling they consider it a dumb question and won’t ask about it anymore. If anybody knows of combat accounts where the pilot is manipulating his engine other than through his throttle, please post them.
I think there are some who believe that a pilot should be able to pull more power if he knows how to manage his engine better. I would like to see this belief quantified. How is this extra power being developed? If everything is pushed to the max, what exactly can you do to get more power? Label the controls a la Spinal Tap?
So what is the real purpose of engine management in real life? It primarily breaks down to two reasons. Fuel efficiency and maintenance considerations. Fuel efficiency should be obvious. You will get a lot more range at a more efficient setting. Maintenance considerations are there to extend engine life and time between overhauls. People see a time limit on military power for a plane and assume that that means the engine will overheat or blow up if you run it longer than that and that’s not the case. Is modeling it that way really more accurate? We don’t model the maintenance considerations, you get a fresh plane each time out. Hopefully, we’ll at least be able to take some stabs in that direction with ToD, but that’s not exactly something you can replicate to great effect.
You see a lot of calls for mixture control. Why? In most planes that we’re dealing with, there’s going to be two settings- auto-rich and auto-lean. Below a certain setting, use auto-lean. Above a certain setting, use auto-rich. Does assigning a couple more keys and a cockpit indicator to that really add that much? All it’s going to get you is better cruise efficiency on auto-lean and that can be modeled directly into the lower cruise settings.
Contrary to what a lot of people think, we actually would like to see people use engine management. But not in some contrived only-in-the-sim-world setup. One of the main considerations for any WWII pilot was his fuel and we’ve always wanted that to be central in the game as well. I just haven’t done a good job with that. With the latest beta release, we’re really looking to get that where we’ve always wanted it to be.
The whole thread is a pretty good read, in fact a BBS search for "engine Management" yields some good info.
-Sik
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Originally posted by WilldCrd
After AH2 is running smoother perhaps this will be addressed. OR it could be a feature of TOD.as it stands right now extra engine management features are prolly low on the list. Alot of new guys are still struggleing with the basics ....like stall limiter and combat trim. Not to mention flaps, dive flaps compression and getting the hang of fuel management
I'm with ya WC, I don't think I'd put "enhanced" engine management near the top. I'm very much loking forward to TOD, but would not want FULL realism there either. Personally I tend to side on the realism side of the fence, but I don't wanna go ALL the way. The only point I was trying to make (way back up there) was that many concessions were made to 'realism' that make the game more fun and palatable to a lager audience. Some will say it is dumbed down too much, some will say not enough. Personally I'm fine with whatever HT and Pyro choose to implement (but I want native TrackIR now! :) ), I've been flying their sims for a very long time and see no reason not to continue doing so. It is still the ultimate game of its kind anywhere for any price. They surely know how to walk the tightrope between the sim and game camps!
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Originally posted by WilldCrd
Well if newbies want i cant teach them how to spin a 38 tottally out of control...Im a friggin expert at it
With the limiter on?
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Originally posted by -MZ-
With the limiter on?
Yep, did it twice last night. SL does not prevent stals, it just helps, I think.