Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Sandman on July 08, 2004, 02:41:35 PM
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...Ejected.
What a waste of training.
http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20040702-030551-4446r.htm
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Yeah.... I guess the brass feels it would demolish unit cohesion or something. Oh well.
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Originally posted by hawker238
Yeah.... I guess the brass feels it would demolish unit cohesion or something. Oh well.
The brass said the same thing about blacks.
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Originally posted by Sandman
...Ejected.
What a waste of training.
http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20040702-030551-4446r.htm
A little misleading there, aren't you? Article says about 1000, and in teh last 5 years. Saying "thousands" makes it seem a whole lot.....oh, wait (the pain of this hook in my mouth makes it difficult to concentrate)....
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Originally posted by slimm50
A little misleading there, aren't you? Article says about 1000, and in teh last 5 years. Saying "thousands" makes it seem a whole lot.....oh, wait (the pain of this hook in my mouth makes it difficult to concentrate)....
Spit out the hook. :)
According to CSSMM, 6,273 service members were expelled from the U.S. military between 1998 and 2003 for sexual orientation. After peaking in 2001 with 1,227 service members kicked out for violating the policy...
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Look its real simple.....You can be Gay and in the military....you cant be openly gay. Dont ask Dont tell Dont persue.
Sorry sandman but the law is on the military's side! Rules are rules.
From personal experience I'm will te be half of these people are not actually Gay but used it as an excuse to get out of their contracts early.
There was an incedent at the monterey linquist school a year or two ago were they discharged 7 people from the service for being gay. This people were almost fully qualified arabic translaters. ONLY 2 OF THEM WERE ACTUALLY CAUGHT they rest of them came out. This was right before the invasion of afganistan.
These people broke the rules.....BOO HOO It is not a RIGHT to serve in the military it is a previlage!
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But you can be openly black.....
Question: would being (openly) gay disqualify you from a draft?
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Originally posted by hawker238
Question: would being (openly) gay disqualify you from a draft?
... i bet it qualify's you for the opening wave of every operation.
Originally posted by Gunslinger
From personal experience I'm will te be half of these people are not actually Gay but used it as an excuse to get out of their contracts early.
from personal experience... eh? :D
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Look its real simple.....You can be Gay and in the military....you cant be openly gay. Dont ask Dont tell Dont persue.
Sorry sandman but the law is on the military's side! Rules are rules.
They certainly are. Unfortunately, the rules are limiting the armed services ability to put qualified warfighters on the field.
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man ... its so important to be heterosexual in the Army :rofl
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Originally posted by Sandman
They certainly are. Unfortunately, the rules are limiting the armed services ability to put qualified warfighters on the field.
SO if a guy is an alcoholic or a drug addict we should make exceptions? I'm not comparing being gay to them I'm just refferring to my statement rules are rules and your's that the military is limmiting itself?
Again it is not a RIGHT to serve in the military.
Furball:
I was reffering to personal experience in the military....not from being gay ;) :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
SO if a guy is an alcoholic or a drug addict we should make exceptions? I'm not comparing being gay to them I'm just refferring to my statement rules are rules and your's that the military is limmiting itself?
Again it is not a RIGHT to serve in the military.
Alcoholism and drug addiction aren't healthy and if a soldier isn't healthy, he's probably not a "qualified" warfighter.
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But they are rules....and if they are broken????
Should be just arbitrarily decide wich rules are good wich are bad?
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alot of those "ejected" for sexual orientation "come out of the closet" just to get out of the military because they are dissatisfied. It happens in the Navy all the time. Alot of kids joining our ranks today are just here for the free college money and have no true dedication to serving the country. When they find out what life is like for a soldier or sailor they just can't hack it. It disgusts me because they just become displinary problems and talk alot of SH*T . I hate people who VOLUNTEER for the military and can't even be mature enough to do the time they VOLUNTEERED for. Alot of countries have required military/public service these kids just don't know how lucky they have it.
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Dont ask, dont tell.
I dont see the problem - they opened their mouths and got canned.
Half of them probably lied to get out of service anyway...
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Originally posted by lada
man ... its so important to be heterosexual in the Army :rofl
This is for the mental health of our soldiers. On ships in the Navy there are alot of community facilities including showers and bathrooms. It makes alot of people uncomfortable to share these facilities when someone might be "checking them out" while showering or changing clothes. A gay in an all male living compartment is the same as a man living in an all female compartment great for the man but would make the women uneasy.
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Even if Gunslinger's 1/2 is correct. It would preclude the necessity to call up these "retired" soldiers if the gays were allowed to serve.
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
Dont ask, dont tell.
I dont see the problem - they opened their mouths and got canned.
Should have just stayed with the old policy before Dictator Cinton(oops I meant president.well no i didn't) changed it to don't ask don't tell
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Originally posted by Sandman
Alcoholism and drug addiction aren't healthy and if a soldier isn't healthy, he's probably not a "qualified" warfighter.
Add to this list the unhealthy effect on unit cohesion and disciplinary problems brought about by having known or suspected homosexuals in one's unit. I'd even go out on a limb and call homosexuality unhealthy as well, but I've been beaten down with mandatory quarterly consideration of others and sensitivity training to the point that I don't have the will to argue it anymore. Sometimes, a Clockwork Orange comes to mind. Every time I sit through one of those classes, I think of the training opportunity for myself and my soldiers that has been squandered. We could have been learning or practising some skill critical to our wartime mission.
Another good idea brought to you by the good idea people.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Even if Gunslinger's 1/2 is correct. It would preclude the necessity to call up these "retired" soldiers if the gays were allowed to serve.
What part of "Dont ask, dont tell" did these fairies not understand? Its seems simple to me but then I ain't a peter puffer so who knows what's going on in their minds. If they had kept their mouths shut they could still be in the military.
Just another example of the media making a story out of a non issue.
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sensitivity training...yeah I always loved that...almost takes some fierceness out of a soldier...."Maybe I shouldn't shoot that rag head cause it might hurt his feelings because I don't like him" Freaking bleeding heart liberals forcing their policies on the military.
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Here's a thought..maybe just transfer the gays to the Mass. National guard..then they can be in an all gay military unit. "Sepearte but Equal" to use an antiquidated term from a darker part of our past.
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of course you know that no dirtbag would ever claim to be a homo to get out of the military cause he didnt want to stay. spent some time working at rtc it was a runnin joke with the ccs how many sr became homos two weeks into boot then were reformed when they realized they could hack it.
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Originally posted by Sandman
They certainly are. Unfortunately, the rules are limiting the armed services ability to put qualified warfighters on the field.
theres a statement from someone who doesnt understand what a warfighter is.
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Originally posted by Sandman
Alcoholism and drug addiction aren't healthy and if a soldier isn't healthy, he's probably not a "qualified" warfighter.
yeah i can tell you spent some time in a combat unit. heaven knows there arent any hot shooters with alcohol problems. and not a one of them smoke or dip either. really.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Even if Gunslinger's 1/2 is correct. It would preclude the necessity to call up these "retired" soldiers if the gays were allowed to serve.
so we should apply the same logic to drug addicts and violent offenses.....oh and all those bad conduct discharges for all the dirt bags the mills been weeding out over the years.
I'm not equating being gay to that of the above mentioned but they do have somthing in common.....THEY DID NOT FOLLOW SIMPLE F**KN RULES!
You dont have to be a brain surgeon to be in the military....you dont even have much common sense....just some.
The military is not the place to make a "stand on the issues" Its not the place to make "social changes" for the sake of seeing if it works.
If those 1000s had followed the rules they might still have the oportunity to serve today
AGAIN.....MILITARY SERVICE IS NOT A RIGHT....IT IS A PRIVILAGE!
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
If those 1000s had followed the rules they might still have the oportunity to serve today
AGAIN.....MILITARY SERVICE IS NOT A RIGHT....IT IS A PRIVILAGE!
That's certainly one perspective. Another is that the service spent millions of dollars training these people and then cast them away.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
so we should apply the same logic to drug addicts and violent offenses.....oh and all those bad conduct discharges for all the dirt bags the mills been weeding out over the years.
I'm not equating being gay to that of the above mentioned but they do have somthing in common.....THEY DID NOT FOLLOW SIMPLE F**KN RULES!
You dont have to be a brain surgeon to be in the military....you dont even have much common sense....just some.
The military is not the place to make a "stand on the issues" Its not the place to make "social changes" for the sake of seeing if it works.
If those 1000s had followed the rules they might still have the oportunity to serve today
AGAIN.....MILITARY SERVICE IS NOT A RIGHT....IT IS A PRIVILAGE!
It's a stupid rule.
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Now, boys and girls, we can't have openly gay soldiers "interrogating"and sexually humiliating Iraqi detainees...that might actually be enjoyabhle for them, and as Rumsfeld said, ithis behavior is only considered torture when it's done for pleasure, not to gain information.
(Am I the ONLY one who sees the irony in that?:rofl )
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Originally posted by midnight Target
It's a stupid rule.
according to you. fortunately the military doesnt have to bow to every whim from the likes of you yet.
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Originally posted by anonymous
according to you. fortunately the military doesnt have to bow to every whim from the likes of you yet.
Oh please. Explain the "likes of Me"! Can't wait to hear it.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Oh please. Explain the "likes of Me"! Can't wait to hear it.
where does your insight on what is good and not good for the military come from?
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Originally posted by anonymous
where does your insight on what is good and not good for the military come from?
It comes from the same place as your expertise on human behavior. Only mine is better.
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its easy... young people usualy enter army, coz they are not educated and they are easily brainwashed....
later on when they find someone to live with and they have family, they simply have no reasons to eat all that BS anymore.
But question is if is it ok, to use reservist during invasion, ocupation.
many people join army with ideas of defending their country, not to be blade of maniac who enjoy masacres.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
It comes from the same place as your expertise on human behavior. Only mine is better.
over my head. take of the beret, come out of the coffee shop, and answer the question my future secdef. tell me how the world really is with regards to this topic.
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Originally posted by lada
its easy... young people usualy enter army, coz they are not educated and they are easily brainwashed....
later on when they find someone to live and have family, they simply have no reasons to eat all that BS anymore.
But question is if is it ok, to use reservist during invasion, ocupation.
many people join army with ideas of defending their country, not to be blade of maniac who enjoy masacres.
how old are you?
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Originally posted by anonymous
how old are you?
4 years after "military" services
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Originally posted by lada
4 years after "military" services
what military? what massacres are you talking about?
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Originally posted by anonymous
over my head. take of the beret, come out of the coffee shop, and answer the question my future secdef. tell me how the world really is with regards to this topic.
Berets are Army aren't they?
Coffee shops are Navy.
The Military should promote expertise in the chosen fields of the various soldiers. It should encourage behavior that builds team spirit and comradery. It should not give a **** what kind of sex a man or woman enjoys.
Overt sexual acts or harrassment isn't OK for anyone. PERIOD.
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Originally posted by anonymous
what military? what massacres are you talking about?
gang bang at faculty of philosofy and HQ of UK
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If they want to serve, let them serve, but if you cannot understand the potential for problems then you may be blinded by your idealism.
A pertinent question to ask at this point might be, "How many of them were discharged for openly hitting on their straight compatriots?" Do they not understand the true meaning of "Don't ask, don't tell?" It means "Keep your sexuality to yourself...your fellow soldiers and sailors are off limits."
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Berets are Army aren't they?
Coffee shops are Navy.
The Military should promote expertise in the chosen fields of the various soldiers. It should encourage behavior that builds team spirit and comradery. It should not give a **** what kind of sex a man or woman enjoys.
Overt sexual acts or harrassment isn't OK for anyone. PERIOD.
unit cohesion is bottom line. dudes have been yanked from a combat unit because they didnt fit in to the point of affecting cohesion and they werent gay they were simply not meant to be there. camraderie doesnt come from encouraged behavior. it comes from shared experience and shared circumstance. some gay dude may be the nicest guy in the world and a crack shot. but if the jarheads in his squad can accept him as one of the boys the usmc should never be pressured to waste time teaching ten shooters to love gay people, especially when they should be working up for deployment to combat zone. military is not a social experiment. it has a serious job to do and will always exist outside popular social norms. every time popular social norms have been forced on military it has been a disaster. society may evolve to become more humane. basic reality of combat has not changed and will never change. if youre openly gay and want to be a paratrooper im sorry it wasnt meant to be. the same way that someone without the brainpower really wants to be a doctor and it isnt going to happen. the world is not fair. neither is the military. and military that worries more about being fair and nice than about getting the job done vs all comers is a military that will fail at its appointed tasks. read up on what happened to us military after second ww and what this cause in korea until military remembered what its job was.
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At least 153 gay food service operators were forced out of the military between 1998 and 2003.
They do have statistics over everything dont they...
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Originally posted by Hortlund
At least 153 gay food service operators were forced out of the military between 1998 and 2003.
They do have statistics over everything dont they...
Good catch. :)
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Originally posted by anonymous
unit cohesion is bottom line. dudes have been yanked from a combat unit because they didnt fit in to the point of affecting cohesion and they werent gay they were simply not meant to be there. camraderie doesnt come from encouraged behavior. it comes from shared experience and shared circumstance. some gay dude may be the nicest guy in the world and a crack shot. but if the jarheads in his squad can accept him as one of the boys the usmc should never be pressured to waste time teaching ten shooters to love gay people, especially when they should be working up for deployment to combat zone. military is not a social experiment. it has a serious job to do and will always exist outside popular social norms. every time popular social norms have been forced on military it has been a disaster. society may evolve to become more humane. basic reality of combat has not changed and will never change. if youre openly gay and want to be a paratrooper im sorry it wasnt meant to be. the same way that someone without the brainpower really wants to be a doctor and it isnt going to happen. the world is not fair. neither is the military. and military that worries more about being fair and nice than about getting the job done vs all comers is a military that will fail at its appointed tasks. read up on what happened to us military after second ww and what this cause in korea until military remembered what its job was.
Well said. About the only thing I would add to that is the social change of society itself. If society moves to accept homosexuals, I'm mean really accept them, then the rules of the military will probably change too. Right now that's not the case.
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Originally posted by Shuckins
If they want to serve, let them serve, but if you cannot understand the potential for problems then you may be blinded by your idealism.
A pertinent question to ask at this point might be, "How many of them were discharged for openly hitting on their straight compatriots?" Do they not understand the true meaning of "Don't ask, don't tell?" It means "Keep your sexuality to yourself...your fellow soldiers and sailors are off limits."
id say that most had to work to get booted. to the point of being asked if they were gay and answering yes. there are many gays in military who do their job well and no one cares they are gay. there are times tho that investigation could cause someone to get booted even if they keep it to themselves. one case officer was seen with male prostitutes in asia. this was reported and search turned up photographs he had taken of himself in action. denied everything but he was toast. but he was toast as much for conduct unbecoming as for being gay. if he was straight and the photos were found he have been in deep trouble as well.
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Originally posted by anonymous
it has a serious job to do and will always exist outside popular social norms. every time popular social norms have been forced on military it has been a disaster.
I guess Truman's desegregation was a disaster?
BS!
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Originally posted by midnight Target
I guess Truman's desegregation was a disaster?
BS!
Two completely different and incomparable examples.
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Originally posted by Martlet
Well said. About the only thing I would add to that is the social change of society itself. If society moves to accept homosexuals, I'm mean really accept them, then the rules of the military will probably change too. Right now that's not the case.
id agree. the stories of the greeks army in ancient times. gay not a social stigma so many stories of "serious fraternizing" from their ancient army. in twenty one years ive seen more than a few gays in military. everyone they work with know they are gay if they not present a problem from behavior and get job done then no problem. they had to be promotable to stay in right? so some co, who knew they were gay considered them to be professional and an asset or no promo. some e-3 ***** about the gay tech "because hes gay" nothing will ever happen. if such a ***** ever reached the co the co would tell the e-3 to stfu and get back to work. been around army usmc combat units alot during my career cant say ive heard of a gay guy in combat unit. probably has been a couple but they kept it well concealed or they wouldnt have lasted. they not evil for being gay. military isnt fair and it cant be.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
I guess Truman's desegregation was a disaster?
BS!
different. black jarhead and white jarhead from washington state, in same squad, could have gotten laid side by side in some potatohouse in the pi in the fifties and they would not have been uncomfortable around each other. almost would be required if they in same squad. for every bigot in deep south trying to keep blacks in their place in military everyone else in military and govt not from deep south have no problem with blacks. if everyone in usa except in four states except gays as norm for society military would treat gays different.
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Lets let all the gays in the military and go start a ground war in asia. One good thing about gays in the military is that they will never leave their buddies behind.
Next on Fox, its the smash hit "Semper studmuffini for the straight military guy" starring the Fab Fireteam Five....
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Anyone heard Larry the Cable Guy's bit on the military and the homosexual's role?
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Originally posted by midnight Target
It's a stupid rule.
So is leagalized abortion......
you dont like the rules....elect people to change them with your vote. DO you think John kerry would allow openly gay conduct in the military?
I honestly dont think so.
this isnt a matter of gay rights it is a matter of unit cohesion. You can be gay and in the military no problem. You dont have to hide anything you just have to conduct yourself in a profesional matter. Same as strait people. I cant go into a work section and talk about sex and such within mixed company.
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Originally posted by anonymous
different. black jarhead and white jarhead from washington state, in same squad, could have gotten laid side by side in some potatohouse in the pi in the fifties and they would not have been uncomfortable around each other. almost would be required if they in same squad. for every bigot in deep south trying to keep blacks in their place in military everyone else in military and govt not from deep south have no problem with blacks. if everyone in usa except in four states except gays as norm for society military would treat gays different.
Anonymous I was with you until I read this. I am not trying to throw rocks but you really need to come down here and meet a few of the folks you are slamming in that statement. I only served 6 years but the only color I saw was green. Skin color does not matter only getting the job done, or as my old CO would say " I don't give a damn about your methods results are what I want."
If I have misinterpreted this I offer my apologies.
Robert
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Originally posted by SmokinSS
Anonymous I was with you until I read this. I am not trying to throw rocks but you really need to come down here and meet a few of the folks you are slamming in that statement. I only served 6 years but the only color I saw was green. Skin color does not matter only getting the job done, or as my old CO would say " I don't give a damn about your methods results are what I want."
If I have misinterpreted this I offer my apologies.
Robert
no we are in accord. skin color doesnt matter in military. when it did back in the early forties im saying it only mattered to some bigots in govt and military and because most of military not bigots at that time the segregation was bound to end. was talking about "back then". not while i was in.
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Originally posted by anonymous
no we are in accord. skin color doesnt matter in military. when it did back in the early forties im saying it only mattered to some bigots in govt and military and because most of military not bigots at that time the segregation was bound to end. was talking about "back then". not while i was in.
Truman desegregated the Army BEFORE segregation became the huge issue in the South. Before Brown vs. Board of Education, Before the Jim Crow laws and poll taxes were repealed and found unconstitutional. Truman basically told the Army to lead the way. It was the right thing to do.
"Early 40's"???? You need to read up. The Civil Rights Act didn't pass until 1964.