Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: RAM on May 08, 2000, 09:04:00 PM
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On a fight tonight,I was in my Fw190 versus a F4U that was extending. He turned back and I went over him. I did the choice of the aggresive attack, because I knew that the guy on the F4U (antman) was a good driver, and,if given the chance he would win advantage on me.
I hi yoyoed and then spilt S on him. Got a deflecion shot from 150-200 yds. Saw hits on tail and fuselage. He went on and I pulled hard to follow, sure that the fight was mine. He crossed again my sights this time 100-150 yds. Again snapshot on him, saw pings over his plane...but he was ok!...now I was on a bad situation cuz I had lost all my advantage and he was on my low 5...I should have extended but I planned to do a hi yoyo and hard pull of rudder to win other snapshot...but I heard ONE ping, and engine collapsed.
Was a nice fight, Antman. Nice moves on that plane...but I still feel pissed off. I flew FW190 with 4 20mms cannons, and all I got was his rudder!!!
My connection was good. I have always ping plotter on on the desktop to check it. Smooth as silk.
I have film on this, so if Pyro wants it, I can send it to him...
This is not intended to be a whine, but a question. This thing happens to me a lot,(so is not a luck matter) and I know Im not the only one that is pissed off by this. Mausers Mg151 were less powerful than Hispanos...but hey I was CLOSE!...and I hit him TWICE!...One ping on me and byebye engine...
So the question is...When will HTC withdraw F4U1C? (joke) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) nah, seriously. Why Mausers are so bad compared with Hispanos? They were reliable and powerful weapons...and 4 hitting at a time...well you get my point.
Thanks in advance.
<Edit> I ask this because I am absolutely sure that if I had Hispanos, he'd have torn apart on first snapshot. And I am sure we'll all agree on that point.<Edit>
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 05-08-2000).]
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Send it to me if you think it shows something. Were you firing your machine-guns as well?
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
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This brings us to point :
Can we have option of removing cowl MGs in 190, pls ?
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map your trigger to fire secondwery only
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RAM, email the film to me and I'll post it on the web in this thread so we can all see it. I fly the 190 a good bit, and the guns are usually very lethal. Would like to see what you are talking about.
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<cite>map your trigger to fire secondwery only
</cite>
What good would it do, besides saving primaries? Sounds to me like less lead on the target, which would decrease lethality. Unless it has something to do with firing cannons through the pror at the same time as MG's, making the cannons have to wait for clearance.
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StSanta
II/JG2
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Originally posted by StSanta:
<cite>map your trigger to fire secondwery only
</cite>
What good would it do, besides saving primaries? Sounds to me like less lead on the target, which would decrease lethality. Unless it has something to do with firing cannons through the pror at the same time as MG's, making the cannons have to wait for clearance.
Point was I think, that MG & 20's don't have the same flightpath...meaning IT COULD have been MG hits only...
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Originally posted by Saintaw:
Point was I think, that MG & 20's don't have the same flightpath...meaning IT COULD have been MG hits only...
At 150-200 Mg & 20 have almost the same path. I've experienced the same problem RAM has with F4U1C. I need a long burst of 4x20 to do some serious damage to the Hog but if the HogC pings me once, I'm done. Well, I'm not sure if the kinetick energy advantage of the hispanos should be so brutal, anyway this should be compensated and even surpased by explosive and electron-incendiary rounds of the Mg151 20mm. That is, one or two explosive rounds on a fighter wing, and wing out, one or two electron-incendiary rounds on an enemy and the con is on fire. But I'm not sure we have EI and HE rounds already modelled on the sim.
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Originally posted by Pyro:
Send it to me if you think it shows something. Were you firing your machine-guns as well?
Sended it to Hblair, if he thinks It is worth your time then I'll send it to you too.
I fired a full salvo, both MGs and Cannons. Still I am sure the hits were on 20mm. Why?. first because convergences...From outboard to cowl...325-350-400.
Second because the shots itself. Both deflection, first with more deflection than second. He crossed the path of bullets from side to side,not up down or down up.
So there is a chance that one of the pings was of 13mm...but the others I am sure the rest were 20mm
Pyro I dont want this to go as another "Hispano on UberHawg" thread. I,really, only want to know how are modelled Mausers Vs Hispanos. Hispanos shot biigger slugs, but they were AP mostly in the war, and those AP rounds weren't as effective as incendiary and high explosive rounds on Mausers. IMHO, and I am only an amateur in this, the ballistics of MG151 must be worse than HS (they are), but the hitting power on aircraft should be more or less the same...if not more.
It is a sincere question, how is the HS compared with MG151 in Aces High?. The point of this thread is that question, not the fight itself.
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Originally posted by RAM:
... but the hitting power on aircraft should be more or less the same...if not more.
Killing power of a single HE Mg151 round should be greater than three normal HS AP rounds hitting at the same point. Of course, HS HE rounds have more puch power than 151/20 ones, but HS HE rounds were not common during the war.
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LOL!!! For all those guys that complain about how weak the 190 cannons are...
Well, I invite you to come fly the P-51 or the F4U-1D for an evening with me and see how you feel.
And don't get me wrong, I'm ecstatic about the .50 MG's in this version. They're the best they've been since the second or third version of the beta.
But I think you will quickly find that you have nothing to complain about. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
Carpe Jugulum
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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Verm, I flew nearly 50% my sorties on Tour3 in P51. Sorry to disagree with you but I find P51 weapons quite accurate and they feel ok at right distances (I.E. less than 400 yds). Always that I managed to land a good burst on a wing of a con (half a second to a second), I managed to rip wis wing with no problem. On fuselage they needed 1-2 seconds, but they prove nice weapons, too. I love that ROF and the low drop of the ammo. They are really nice weapons,IMHO, for a plane like P51. Not so in a F4U, and in a Fw190 they wont be that good either. Why? because Fw190,and in a less extent,F4U,live for and because the snapshot. So Firepower is needed. But I wont complain too much if you give me 6 50 cals on my 190, either (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Snapshots arent to be mortal with 12.7mm weapons. A 20mm has way more punch than a 50cal on single hits. In a Snapshot you are going to get 2-3 pings and with 20mm ping that can be enough to kill the con, or at least do mortal damage. 50 cals cant do that ammount of damage in so few pings. Its a trade between accuracy and rate of fire and sheer firepower.
So I know of what I speak...I had nearly 3/1 K/D ratio on P51 in Tour3. I know those weapons and I find them right. What I dont find right is Mauser's power.If it hasnt the power to inflictserious damage on 2 snapshots to a F4U...then I'd better take 50 cals.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 05-09-2000).]
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My 4*20mm's are quite good most of the time.
Cannot say much about the Hispanos as I do not fly allied aircraft, but must say that the 4*20 on the 190 are FAR more lethal than the puny armament of the 109G10 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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StSanta
II/JG2
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Originally posted by Hristo:
This brings us to point :
Can we have option of removing cowl MGs in 190, pls ?
Excellent suggestion!
Please !!! I hate those pea shooters in the cowling, messes up my aim for the 'big boys'(20mm)
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Umm I like cowl MGs. I set convergence at 400 yds and use them to long range shots. They dont recoil much and they are OK to make jink running cons (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
And they arent so heavy, have some punch at less that 300 yds...well if I had the choice to fly with or without them I'd always go with them. But well there are a lot of tastes here (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 05-09-2000).]
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Originally posted by RAM:
Verm, I flew nearly 50% my sorties on Tour3 in P51. Sorry to disagree with you but I find P51 weapons quite accurate and they feel ok at right distances (I.E. less than 400 yds
The .50s should be lethal out to 1600yds. There is a kill recorded at this distance, though it was the M3 .50 instead of the M2 we have. Only real difference between the 2 being the ROF (M3 can put more lead on target in a given time).
I've been wondering for a few days if there wasn't something up with the hispanos because of how easy it is for those DweebC's to kill tanks in a single pass when just about every other bird has to make multipasses just to damage them.
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Hmm... I have only been on this sim for less than a week and less than 100 kills but I have hit 190's with with the 1c and had em escape.. I have been one ping killed by both 190's and 109's. I have flown the fifties and think that 6 fifties are not too bad in this game but compared to 4 151's they are laughable.
Has anyone done any real testing or are we all just a bunch a whiners blowing smoke and making excuses?
lazs
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Cave, what I tried to say is that I never,or rarely, fired from more than 400yds. And as I adjusted convergences in p51 dispersed (from out to in, 325,350,375), my hits were never concentrated. A burst of concentrated fire on convergence point at 650 yds would be as deadly as were my settings hiting at,say, 450 yds.
I'm not messing with long range damage here, but, still, to say that M2 should be "lethal" up to 1600 yds is quite strong. first because you must hit at those ranges. and second because you must land a "golden twinkee" hit...if 50 cals were deadly up to that range,then Hispanos M2 would be MORTAL up to 2500yds!!!...
where did you read about 1600 yds kills?. I never saw such distance, and I'd like to know that. I bet that if there was some kill at those ranges it should've been a Japanese plane...for those even 4 50 cals were mortal...
It is all relative at long ranges. What I am asking here is to relative damage done by Mausers at 100-200 yds (my pings), and one ping done by a Hispano at 350 yds (his only ping).
Longer ranges dont matter me anymore. I still have the eventual con that kills me 1.2K away, but I learnt to forget it and regard it as bad luck
(curious the only planes that kill me that way are Spits and F4Us...guess why? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif))
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 05-09-2000).]
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I tought that alot depended on _where_ u hit on the AC...
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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-
(http://www.rsaf.org/osf/images/osf_inga.gif)
http://www.rsaf.org/osf/ (http://www.rsaf.org/osf/)
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I have already pointed out that the balistics in AH is undermodeled...
Thats right ballistics undermodeled....
Give me a ak-47 (7.62mm) let me dump 30 rds in the fuselage, then 30 for tail, then 30 for wing etc...This is a fighter of course...
lets check the dammage of them 30rds to each area of the plane.
In my opinion per each(note per 30) 30 rds that aircraft would have suffered dammage to force it out of the air....
Now in this game i can drop 200 7.62mm's into a F4 along with 20 20mm rounds and if im luckly i may down it....(the single 20mm is so undermodeled its pathetic we are talking cannon here not bean shooter....)
3-4 cannon rds exploding near/in a aircraft should be devastating.
Now granted people will squeak and moan on how they were shot down by 1 ping... wah wah wah... Thats real life bubs... your aircraft should avoid fire at all costs period...Gas and engine dont last too long against any type of firepower..
Some of you have never seen the carnage that a high powered mg round can do... Some of you have never seen what a high powered cannon can do... I have, let me tell you something there is no freaking way a soft target( aircraft) can stand up to that.. Now some of you are going to say wah i heard jimmy boy flew his aircraft home with big holes in ww2... well guess what for every aircraft that returned with big holes in it 100 with similiar dammage went down.. I would also like to point out how people make their story one thing when what happened in real life is completely different..
Dont take my word on it do a little research yourself.. on modern ballistics you may get alittle brighter.
I would also like to point out that hitting aircraft at distance should be much harder than it currently is... For every 1 inch you are off target at 100yds you would be 1-4 inchs per 100yds there after. so a 700yds shot if you would be several feet off target...Now this is in a vacuum not counting pwder per round or windage or chaos theory etc...
go grab you hunting rifle and fire off 1 round at a 300 yd target... can you hit every time... hell no you cant (with a scope maybe) No get in your car and try the same shot moving at 20mph... lot harder now ...
My point is simple we need more dispersion at greater ranges... if it is modeled then its not modeled enough...increase it along with lethality and this game will up its realism big time....
my 3 1/2 cents
Regards,
DoctorYO
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Maniac, hits were on Hawg's tail and fuselage.
BTW, I have had just another fight on the MA, this time with a niki. Again 3-4 hits on a deflection shooting, this time concentrated in right wing,from 250 yds to 100 (was a front quarted deflection shooting). No damage on him, at all.
PLEASE do something with mausers! this is damned pissing (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 05-09-2000).]
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DoctorYo, it seems like we have a lot of dispersion already.
Take a Typhoon and strafe a ground vehicle. The pattern of strikes on the ground is about 3 times the size of the vehicle!
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I´d rather see HTC turning down the f4u guns then upping the FW ones.
I cant understand this whining, i have 5 kill sorties with 50´s without problem and u are saying u cant kill with the 20mms?
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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-
(http://www.rsaf.org/osf/images/osf_inga.gif)
http://www.rsaf.org/osf/ (http://www.rsaf.org/osf/)
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Lazs.
Glad you took that minute to let us know how much superior you are.
The 50s you approve of where much weaker 2 months ago. They were improved in response to that "whining" you seem so distainful of.
Pyro has a dificult problem to address here. The numbers he has for the HS cannon and the 151 are dead accurate. But the effect in the game should not be so different. This is probably because of the law of diminishing returns. Some of that capability in the HS is overkill. The penetration is not needed in air to air and if it is signifigantly more accurate then the 151 it is only so at a range that should not be viable in WW2 air to air engagments.
The worst thing that could be done is to improve the 151. I am sure that wont happen.
Most of us here like the leathality of the 151 vs fighters and bombers. You have to hit. But when you hit it usually stays hit.
The 50 has been improved a bit and I think it feels good too.
But when you get your accuracy up to around 10% the f4u1c is just silly.
So do your tests. I am sure that pyro would appreciate it and we will appreiciate it more than name calling.
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Originally posted by Maniac:
I´d rather see HTC turning down the f4u guns then upping the FW ones.
I cant understand this whining, i have 5 kill sorties with 50´s without problem and u are saying u cant kill with the 20mms?
Cc just that. Maybe I'll get the P51 out from the hangar again...cuz Mg151 is **REALLY** Pissing me off
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Will fly the 190 tonite (if i dont end up in some bar after work) and see how it goes.
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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-
(http://www.rsaf.org/osf/images/osf_inga.gif)
http://www.rsaf.org/osf/ (http://www.rsaf.org/osf/)
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Guys, I emphasized that I wasn't complaining about the .50's. They feel about right in this version.
My point is that the 190 guns are much more lethal and its all a matter of perspective.
They are really nice weapons,IMHO, for a plane like P51. Not so in a F4U, and in a Fw190 they wont be that good either. Why? because Fw190,and in a less extent,F4U,live for and because the snapshot
Come on RAM (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I really hope your not starting to believe your own propaganda. The P-51, Fw190, and the F4U all fly in the same manner, and should be flown with the same style.
If anything, the superior roll rate of the 190 gives it more opportunities for shots than you get with the P-51.
Don't be trying to convince me that the 190 needs some special "dispensation from the gods" (ie advantage) for some reason. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
Carpe Jugulum
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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Well, it has some drawbacks compared to say the '51 as well, so I am glad it packs a better punch (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I heard Saintaw say that the Hog's are more nimble than the 190. Scary thought. At high speeds, I find the 190 to have plenty of turning power if you're willing to bleed E. Is it low speed handling the hog does better?
I also take it that the Hog has a much superior supercharger, as the 190 climbs like a pregnant hippo above 20k, and I always meet Hogs who have a 2-5k advantage on me . 1.4k/m WAAAH!
Heh, not whining though; I love my little baby 190 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif). It's sleak, sharklike, cute, cuddly Yellow And Furry (according to my personal god Nirfur God Of All Things Yellow And Furry And The Great Abritrator Who Decides What Is Yellow And Furry, for whom I am a prophet) and overall just a damned nice aircraft.
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StSanta
II/JG2
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Does Fishu still play AH?
I miss his comments... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
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Well just a couple of thoughts here.
I was having a horrible time in the 109 and 190 with any type of deflection shots and head ons for that matter.
After an evaluation of my convergence settings i found i had them incorrect cannon at 325 and mg at 425 Doh!
All my 13mm mg rounds were hitting but my cannon was missing! I felt like the assist king of AH
Now i find myself getting 4-5 kill sorties in a 109.
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I was wondering if in the TRAINING ARENA you could make the hit sprites(if thats what they are called) of cannon rounds a different color?This would sure help in deflection shooting with the slower velocity cannon rounds.
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Im sure that a lot of us over estimate the amount of cannon rounds that actually hit unless we are firing cannon rounds only . Which i do do on occasion but in the main arena i do less of.
When firing cannon only i have found I put the bead on and fire, only to find I need to adjust, and the adjustment feels alot more prononced then when firing with my 13mm MG 131.
I have used both the 30mm and 20mm cannon and have seen very random results.
One time in the training arena Kieren was droning for me. I had the luxury of saddling up on his 202 and firing ONLY 30mm
cannon at his wing from a distance of 275.
Much to my surprise 3 hits on his right wing and nada ? Ok 2 more then kaboom!
"Kieren did you feel those first 3 cannon hits?"
"Yup i sure did"
hmmmmmmmm
Trying it again but this time i had the top of his wing visable firing cannon only 1 hit kaboom! Toast
It seems there is some randomness involved . Now if its by design or not I do not know.
But i know i like that (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
As for tank busting the 20mm of the F4U-1C
seem far superior to even the 30mm of the GAF. Or maybe its just me i have trouble killing tanks (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Baddawg (edited 05-09-2000).]
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I really think it is just a matter of convergence. I used to stagger my convergence on all my planes ... It took forever to get enough hits on a plane to down it. I then read somewhere that the .50's on the pony were set to ~300 (all of them) so I tried that. The difference was amazing .. shorter bursts and pieces came flying off. Sure it makes you get in closer for the kill, but when 6 .50's or 4 .20mm or whatever all hit in the same spot on an aircraft, you can imagine the amount of damage. Can anyone else back this up? I know it has made a difference for me.
-Sn1p3r
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One thing I haven't seen mentioned so far...
The F4U is FAR tougher than the FW isn't it? The Hog is one of the toughest birds in the air, so it should be harder to bring it down.
RAM, unless you don't fire your MG's you just can't be sure what you hit with. No matter what I fly, I only use one trigger. In my F4U-1D this is fine, 6x.50, but in the FW I simply map my trigger to Fire2 and only use the cannons. I'll use the F key on the keyboard if I need to and use MG for ranging or scaring a con. Use only the cannons, trust me, you'll be more lethal. The only plane where I'll use both at the same time is in the P38 where they are all nose mounted and have similar trajectories.
Also... just because you HEARD one ping means nothing. If he nailed you with 15 shells in a second, that very well may all get to your FE at the same time and all you hear is one ping. It's just a noise to let you know you have been hit, not a counter that tells you how many shells you took remember.
Yes, if you had Hispano's you would have likely killed him, but not for the reasons you think IMHO. You would have gotten him with Hispano's because you had guns with a better trajectory and you wouldn't be confusing the issue with MG fire.
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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs
Visit Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH news, resources, and training data.
http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/ (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/)
(http://tuweb.ucis.dal.ca/~dconrad/ahf/lepht.gif)
"MY P-47 is a pretty good ship
And she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip
I was thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip
Always got me through so far
Well they can ship me all over this great big world
But I'll never find nothing like my North End girl
I'm taking her home with me one day, sir
Soon as we win this war"
- Steve Earl
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Originally posted by Vermillion:
Come on RAM (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I really hope your not starting to believe your own propaganda. The P-51, Fw190, and the F4U all fly in the same manner, and should be flown with the same style.
Disagree, Verm (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I fly Fw190. I flew a lot P51. Hole different planes. You can fly a P51 the way you fy a Fw190, but you'll NEVER be able to fly a fw190 the way you CAN fly P51.And I talk about good flying, not suicide turning fights (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
A P51 using those WONDERFUL flaps ,can win angles on enemy planes when needed, thing that you'd NEVER be able to do in a Fw190. so you can put a longer burst on target.
Fw190 lives for and because the snapshot, verm. Its the truth. Maybe A5 will change that, but A8 cant turn well without losing advantage FAST. So winnin an angle is difficult, to say the least.
P51 can drop one notch of flaps, maybe 2, for ,say 5 seconds without losing too much E. The better turning allowes you to win the angle on a con and put a LONG and STEADY burst on the enemy. Try it. I did it a lot with it and it works GREAT. Of course now I really miss those flaps in Fw190 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I agree,though in that 20mm MG151 packs way more punch than 12.7mm. But it packs WAY less punch than Hispano, and that is why I keep on asking why. Hispano AP rounds werent ,by far, that good versus planes...and HE rounds were strange until too late in the war.
German 20mm were used effectively against bombers...so guess what they could do against fighters.
Lephturn, thanks for the tip. I'll try it...but I keep on thinking that 75% pings on the Hog were 20mm. They hit with separation, what means WING armament hits. and as I said before, the path followed by the con made more possible wing hits than cowling ones.
I'll grab a Hawg again tonight and give it a try. It has been a long time since I flew it on AA duties
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 05-09-2000).]
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ooops...double post (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 05-09-2000).]
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pongo... u are missing my point. "Feel" is not good enough. I "feel" one way and you another...We need to test. In the "other" sim it is done all the time by dedicated players. I have done hours of testing myself. Others have done a lot more.
Here's the deal... I will spend the hrs with you and test the guns with you if you like. It is done something like this.... From ded 6 at two hundred yards you fire very short (1/2 sec or less) bursts at my ac and then wait for the damage to take effect. When I go down we figure how many rounds it took. do this several times and try other combinations until we get some idea of the leathiality of each type of armement.
lazs
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lazs
Thanks for your reply..
How can we be sure how many hit? Or if they were the HE ones or the AP ones or the duel role ones?
I agree that some way to reverse engineer thier relative lethality in AH would be of some value, But their effeciveness in WW2 is still subjective...
I dont think anyone here even Pyro needs to be conviced that the HS is signifigantly more lethal then the 151 or any other cannon here. I believe that it is intended to be more lethal in the game in particulare as regards its signifigant penetration and long range accuracy advantage. The issue is if there is historical precident for the LEVEL of superioriy that is evident in the game.
So discussions that I am involved in concerning this issue will probably be frustrating to people who want to boil the numbers and put a check mark beside the mathamatical proofs.
Pyro has acknoledged that something is wrong. We all know that Pyro and HT are basing the capabilities of these cannons on well documented and uncontested numbers.
But rangefinders, 10% gunnery, lack of atmoshpheric interference, lack of variance between guns and ammo of the same type or a small piece of each of the above are giving the HS M2 the ability to reach out with unrealisic leathality in comparison to the other very effecitve guns in the game.
Maybe testing could establish this either way.. Not in any way I can think of though..
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maybe there's a minute bug somewhere making the hispanos super guns. There was the double gravity on the bullets.
And the tiffie is another 1 pass wonder tank killer. Had one wipe me out in 1 pass earlier today. And it wasn't a high angle shot. I had the barrel elevated to the max to try and bring the coax to bear (where's the external mg on top of the turret???) and I had to depress it quite a bit to hit the tiffie.
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For what it's worth, it's hardly an accurate statistical measurement, but I did take out a number of panzers trying out the 190 last night. It's a pretty small (near irrelevant) sampling, but it seemed pretty effective.
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Fatty
Fat Drunk Bastards (http://fdb.50megs.com)
"I ain't givin none of you bastards a hug who ain't bought me at least 6 beers."
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Originally posted by RAM:
...but I heard ONE ping, and engine collapsed...
One ping on me and byebye engine...
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 05-08-2000).]
Ram, is it possible you STILL haven't figured this out yet?
As Lephturn pointed out, yet AGAIN, hearing one ping means nothing.
Quite a whild ago, back when I flew the -1C I nailed your -109 at about 250 yds. You immediately started the "one ping whine". If you recall, I told you over common that on MY FE I saw about 25-30 hit sprites all in your cockpit/center section area. You gave me such a beautiful planform shot I think every round hit.
ONE PING on the dying man's FE is MEANINGLESS. You just don't know how many rounds hit you.
Get used to it. Accept it. It's NOT one hit.
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Yep toad I recall that one..but that one I died in the kaboom. So I figured that when you die you hear only a few pings
Didnt knew that when flying the "one ping" may mean more than that.
Anyway I am sure that was only one hit. why? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) because I told it on #1 and the guy accepted that he had hit me only with one ping.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) simple isnt it? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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RAM,
I flew the 190 yesterday an couple a sorties, and i did not find it hard to kill wiht once you had got your guns on target at all.
Heres an tip (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) keep the trigger squezed until u see parts come flyin off the enemy plane, and do not only lob 2-3 cannon shells on target expecting it to go boom.
Regards.
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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-
(http://www.rsaf.org/osf/images/osf_inga.gif)
http://www.rsaf.org/osf/ (http://www.rsaf.org/osf/)
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Originally posted by Maniac:
RAM,
Heres an tip (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) keep the trigger squezed until u see parts come flyin off the enemy plane, and do not only lob 2-3 cannon shells on target expecting it to go boom.
Regards.
Well Maniac...thats my point. 2-3 Mauser rounds on a fighter in WWII would have produced Serious, if not lethal, Damage!!! that high explosiver round was terrific!
If I go with a 20mm I EXPECT to do HARD damage on snapshots!. in Hispano that is true, one ping is equal to structure damage,for sure. In Mausers it isnt and I cant accept it! AP rounds on HIspano went through the plane making a hole moe or less big. 20mm rounds on Mausers EXPLODED and made TERRIFIC damage. Not to talk about incendiary rounds.
Pyro please, again, can you post here the type of ammo simulated in AH?. If in HS it is HE I can understand it (But then I must disagree with the 20mm penetration on tanks). IF it is AP then the damage is ridiculous, IMHO.
Thanks in advance
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pongo... u can't be absolutely sure how many hit but at 200 yards ded 6 with two different people testing you will be able to get a very good "relative: feel. which brings us full circle.... I want to know how each gun does against the other in the game, leathiality wise. Mostly all I have heard on here is "my guns are XXX times less effective than the other guys".... Lets find out just what advantage or disadvantage each gunset is operating with in the "game". Lets find out what the ratio is or lets just all say that we don't know.
I don't know what the loadout for 151's are in the game. Is it AP/HE mix? What ratio? Can you set it?
I do not believe that anyone has comprehensive or otherwise, data on how many hits it took from what what gun to down what plane in WWII much less comparrisons against the same planes. I certainly think that saying AP rounds are overkill and less effective against fighters than HE is incorrect though.
lazs
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RAM,
U missed my point (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
The FW cannons _are_ lethal! alot more lethal then my 50s anyway...
Check your conv setting and dont count the number of hits you make on target, djust spray till it goes boom or some critical part falls of.
Oh why dont we go in to the TA and i will fly completly level at 300 yds ahead of u and then you can test the cannon?
Regards.
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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-
(http://www.rsaf.org/osf/images/osf_inga.gif)
http://www.rsaf.org/osf/ (http://www.rsaf.org/osf/)
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Lazs
I dont know what the mix of rounds is. But the 20mm mine shells would be next to useless against a tank, and the 20mm AP shells would be next to useless against a bomber. As our guns are good for both roles in the same sorie They must have a mix of shells.... The germans flew a mix of shells, by 1945 the allies were too apperantly. I have a picture of the HS being loaded on a Spit IX in 1945 and it is definatly a mix of ammo going in.
So my point was..if the rounds are mixed(which is historical for the germans at least) then how do we establish which type of round was effective? Does it matter?
My opinion on the relative effectivness of AP vs HE for air to air is based on the direction that such weapons evolved in the post war. I would be interested in any refrence that indicates that AP is deemed supperior.
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My guess is that both the Hispano and the Mauser guns are using a mix of ammunition, in which case you will see the results we are getting.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
Carpe Jugulum
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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I can see where RAM could be getting frustrated. I've been killed on a couple of occasions at over 1000 yards by hispano's on the F4U1C. Torque has gotten me a few times at ungodly distances, It wasn't net lag either, he told me later that I was 1000 yards on his FE, no I didn't record it, but it did happen.
I'm not complaining about the LW guns, they are plenty deadly enough for me, it's just that the hispano's are that much better. One ping and you're pretty much done.
I think I was in the arena the other when pyro said he needed to check the lethality. Could be mistaken, but I think that is what he was talking about.
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(http://heathblair.tripod.com/spitflame2.JPG)
<===<The ASSASSINS>===> (http://members.xoom.com/_XOOM/rowgue/index.html)
The_ASSASSINS@egroups.com
[This message has been edited by hblair (edited 05-10-2000).]
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Yes Hblair that is what he was talking about.
It is a hard problem because the same algorithms seem to give such historicaly palatable results for all the other guns..
(even the 151 IMHO). They will lick it and when they do we can start to see some of the other more deadly cannons in the game. Right now I bet they dont introduce them.
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guys... The HS rounds all have way more velocity/energy than any 151 round we are talking heavier rounds at higher speed say 2400 fpm vs 2900... Better balistic coeficient and time of flight for the HS and .50 AP rounds. At long ranges this would have a significant advantage... Whether you could hit anything at 1000 yrds+ is another matter.
I want to test in the arena with someone to find out the RELATIVE leathiality of each gun and or gunset. Anecdotal stories from the arena tell us less than nothing. They merely cloud the issue.
lazs
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So you have said Lazs go for it.
You will find that the leathality advantage of the HS is not range dependent.The HS will be signifigantly more dangourous at any range but particularly at 500-1500 yards.
This is apperantly what you expect to find anyway.
Then you can pump your numbers into a calculator and find out that the kinetic energy values indicate that the HS should be (1.7?) times better then the 151. And look its nearly twice as good in my testing..so whats the problem.
The problem is that there is no historical precident that indicates the HS was better at Air to Air little own nearly twice as good. Then you can say...Well thats subjective..and then I say EXACTLY... Without the coresponding tests from WW2. All you will be doing is enlightening yourself to what those of us who have been flying the 1c the spit Ix and the german planes have learned since last September. The HS is in a class by itself in the game.
The 131 and the 50cal which probably hold a similar ballistic relationship as the HS and the 151 feel better in relation then the cannons do. The 131 is a bit more sluggish and cant tag planes at 800 nearly so well as the 50 but that "feels" right.
Thats what I think the relation between the 151 and the HS (and the higher velocity cannons from other counties) should be.
Have to lead a bit more, wont chew through a tank as well, but hits on Aircraft should be very similar in result.
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Then you can pump your numbers into a calculator and find out that the kinetic energy values indicate that the HS should be (1.7?) times better then the 151. And look its nearly twice as good in my testing..so whats the problem.
Because Kinetic value is only part of the equation.
Then you have to consider the additional explosive content of the larger shell.
It should also be realized that typically the larger the shell, the higher proportion of explosive to total weight.
Additionally, the range factor comes into play that considers each shell types ballistic coefficent
Here's some data that might help you out.
1.)The US Army's 20mm High Explosive/Incindiary cannon shell used during WWII has the following characteristics.
Total Projectile Mass = 1565 grains
Explosive Mass = 165 grains of TNT
% Mass of Explosive = 10.54 %
Source: US Army's Small Arms Ammunition Pamphlet, 23-1 SSA. August 1968. Picktany Arsenal. Or alternatively, US Army Ammunition Data Sheets, Small Caliber Ammuntion. TM 43-0001
2.)The US Army's 30mm High Explosive/Incindiary cannon shell used during WWII has the following characteristics.
Total Projectile Mass = 2295 grains
Explosive Mass = 600 grains of TNT, plus 70 grains of RDX
% Mass of Explosive = 29.19 %
Source: US Army's Small Arms Ammunition Pamphlet, 23-1 SSA. August 1968. Picktany Arsenal. Or alternatively, US Army Ammunition Data Sheets, Small Caliber Ammuntion. TM 43-0001
(3.) The explosive yield of TNT is reported as 1080 kCalories / kilogram of mass, or as 4.10 kJoules/ gram of mass.
Source: Explosives, 4th Edition. By Rudolph Meyer. ISBN: 1-56081-266-4
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
Carpe Jugulum
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 05-10-2000).]
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pongo... I don't get it. Issue One: I have offered to test and will test with you personally. You admit that you are guessing at what the guns in the game actually are capable of. I am offering you (and me) a chance to see just how good or bad each gunset is leathiality wise. At the end of the testing we will be able to whine with authority.
Issue two; There is no historical data on how many hits it took to take down a test fighter with each type of munition. There is loads of balistic and penetration data tho. The 151 round is inferior to an HS round both balisticaly and penetration wise. Time of flight and balistic coeficient make the 151 round inferior in deflection shooting also. You contend that HS and other AP rounds are overkill but I contend that 151 HE rounds are underkill and ineffective against most armor. As for the evolution of 20mm ammo, it all got faster as time went by. The slowest 20mm were the 151's and nobody ever went back there.... Velocity has to be good for something?
lazs
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Sorry Lazs
cant expain myself any better.
No one is contesting the accurracy advantage of the HS cannon. It shoots flatter and the rounds hit sooner and that makes hits with it more likly. Has been that way since the spit showed up with it and is well understood by all the experianced players in the game. Test if you like to prove it to yourself.
The whole issue is the kiss of death effect when the HS hits. Its penetration should not aid it in the kill. There is not a plane in this game that has the armour to withstand even the slow poke 151 round. So the HS advantage on the kill is its kinetic energy....But good cannon rounds use explosive energy to kill AC and the 151 has at least as much as that as the HS. So why the kiss of death advantage with the HS.
Test away.
But if it is not immediatly evident why to Pyro with the data from the game printed out in front of him(and collected by him) what do you hope to find?
I dont have the inclination to test it. My second sortie with the 1c told me everything I needed to know. I shot down a tight formation of 2 b26s with out a hit. then a b17 then a lone 109 then a lone b26...
So I have no nead to clerify or codify the capabilties of the cannon.
But I am not stoping you....go for it.
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pongo I don't know how to make myself any clearer..... You admit that you have no real idea of how much more or less leathal the HS rounds are over the 151 rounds IN THE GAME.
I am merely suggesting/offering that you and I find out with a little mutual testing. I am sorry but at this point anything you say about the relative leathiality of the two guns, IN THE GAME, is worthless conjecture no more valuable than mine or anyone elses anecdotal conjecture/opinion.
As for pyro... I believe that he can speak for himself.
lazs
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The whole issue is the kiss of death effect when the HS hits. Its penetration should not aid it in the kill.
Sorry, but I believe that your assumption that any kinetic energy over the amount delivered by the MG151 is overkill, is flawed.
Go back and read Chapter 1 of Shaw's book. In Chapter 1 he talks about Lethality, and how it is generally proportional to kinetic energy. He then compares just the kinetic energy's of guns from US .30's-.50's-20mm (WWII)-20mm(Jet Age)-Bigger. He explicitly talks about how shells (higher velocity) from later than WWII are more deadly. A direct contradiction of your theory.
But good cannon rounds use explosive energy to kill AC and the 151 has at least as much as that as the HS
True, total explosive energy content of a cannon shell exceeds the kinetic energy of most shells even at the muzzle (point of highest KE). But your also neglecting the fact that typically, due to the way explosive forces work, only a portion of the explosive energy is applied to the airframe. So the chemical energy of the explosive does not overshadow the Kinetic energy quite so much as you seem to believe. If that were true, then the Cannons would be much much much more deadly than MG's would be in real life or in a game such as ours.
And on what references are you basing the arguement that the Mauser shells carry as much explosive material as the Hispano shells? Please post them, I would be quite interested in them. If possible, include shells other than just the "mine shells" for reference.
Personally, I am not tied to the either theory right now, but so far the data I have seen, it seems to indicate that the Hispano MKII should be more deadly than the MG151
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 05-11-2000).]
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what happens if we get a tempest with 4 hispano mk v
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Verm
Your assumption is that the kinetic energy can be applied perfectly to an airframe.
This is no more correct for kinetic then chemical energy.
My recollection of Shaw was that he hedged arround the issue of explosive leathality and just talked about ballistic leathality.
Doenst he even admit that? cant remember for sure.
Lazs
I addmitted no such thing.
That you could read my statment and take the oppisite meaning from what I said somewhat challanges your objectivity as a tester.
I know that the HS round is much more deadly and I stated that.
Pyro can not only speak for himself he can defend himself if he has to. I was recounting what he told me online. This is a common practice on this board. To share things found out online when HTC is on in blue. If I miss quoted him he would let all of us know real quick. I have no abiguity my self that the HS is much more deadly then the 151. My whole and only point is should it be? Given an effecive HS HE shell then the HS should be more accurate and more lethal then the 151. But how much. I have searched any books I have about the spit and the typhoon and the hurricane. Looking for some statement about the introduction of the HS that indicated that the people at the time thougth that the HS was far supperior to the cannons they were facing. Or that 4 of them let you 1 ping kill a target at 800-1.4k yards. I can find not a single one to support it. Some statements by buerling that he only really used his port cannon to kill. A sort of competition between JEJ and Mcloud as to who could kill with the fewest rounds(Mcloud got one with 6 rounds or something)
Nothing that wasnt duplicated hundereds of times by experten with a single 151.
But anyone flying AH nows that that is not the case here.
So I will keep shaking the tree and trying to focus on the historical record and people who want to test can do that.
So what is your problem with that. I am not allowed to research instead of test? you find that offensive? Well live with it I guess.
Contribute what you want to contribute, ignore my posts do what ever..but quit trying to tell me what to do and dont expect me to be too interested in someone who keeps parroting the velocity of the HS as some kind of proof.
I know it. After the first few times I flew a spit I went out and did reasearch and was impressed with the ballisics of it. When they announced the 1c I asked Pyro on line if it would have the same cannon and he said yes...I said oh oh...
And I still am.
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Am I the only one who finds this conversation hauntingly reminiscent of... um... er... well...? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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rgr that snakeyes, but this is kind of interesting.
No offense lazs, but we all know the HS are stronger, have been for a long time. It doesn't seem to be a small margin either. I don't see where testing is gonna do a whole lotta good.
I trust that pyro will check into this, and make a correction if need be.
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Verm
Sorry I missed your challange about the he effectivness of the 151 vs HS.
I will try to find the web pages and books that I was taking that from. Some of it was posted here by others allready.
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Pongo wasn't so much a challenge as an honest question. I have solid data on the US stuff, but haven't seen any data on the German stuff that I could collaborate.
If you can find it, it would be much appreciated.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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Here is a list of some values for explosive/incendiary content for Mg121 20mm shells.
Mine (92g round) 18.6g PETN
APHE (115g round)4g PETN
HE/I (115g round) 4.4g PETN/Incendiary Mixture
AP/I (117g round) 6.2g Incendiary Mixture
AP/I (115g round) 3.6g Incendiary Mixture
Note that projectiles for the Mg151/20 generally weighed about 115g except for the Mine shells which weighed considerably less due to their high chemical (and thus low steel) content.
-ireg- provided the following information for me from a Luftwaffe order dated January 1944:
Ammo belting for Mg151
Ammo for fighter in the West: 1 - M-shell, 1 - APHE, 1 API
Ammo for fighter in the East: 3 - M-shell, 1 - APHE, 1 API
Hooligan
[This message has been edited by Hooligan (edited 05-11-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Hooligan (edited 05-11-2000).]
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Thx Hooligan (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Ok so lets compare HE/I to HE/I, since thats what we have hard data for from each gun.
Hispano Mk II HE/I
165 grains of TNT = 10.69 grams of TNT
TNT = 4.1kJ/ gram of mass
1 shell therefore produces = 43.83kJ of explosive energy
Mauser MG151 HE/I
4.4 grams PETN/Incendiary mix
Now if I remember correctly, Ireg or someone over on AGW commented that PETN has about 110% of the explosive force of TNT, so:
PETN = TNT(1.1)= 4.1(1.1)= 4.51 kJ/gram mass
1 shell therefore produces = 19.84 kJ of explosive energy
So shell type for shell type we get 43.83kJ to 19.84kJ, or the Hispano HE/I has 220% of the explosive force per shell of the MG151 HE/I. Also look back to the differences in Kinetic energy as well.
You could also figure in the rate of fire, and compute 1 second bursts from each gun, but it still would not greatly effect the results.
Only if you go with the pure Mine shell will you get much difference, and then you get into the whole debate of whether the Allies had a comparable round to the Mine shell, and what is a "standard" loadout throughout the entire war.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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Wow that is a huge difference.
I guess that explains why the germans apperanly never used the HE/I in there ammo load out....
Really to be fair Verm, get the ammo mix for the Typhoon, work out the explosive energy for a 3 second burst. Work out the explosive energy for a 3 second burst from the 4 151s.(ammo mix above) include the mine shell.
And lets compare the numbers..
Does an explosive/incendery mixture have the same energy as a straight explosive.(I have only ever used the stuff not read the box..)
You cant just leave out the mine shell cause it confuses the issue. And if HE shell usage is questioned the first casualty will likely be the HS not he mine shell.
Verm you mentioned earier a US 30mmm WW2 cannon round...which WW2 US cannon could fire a 30mm round?
You have given some good numbers that show how the HS ended up so supperior to the 151 in Aces High. If the ballistic numbers and the HE numbers are combined we end up with a greatly supperior weapon about like what we have here. I wonder if the mine shell is in the game???I would be real interested in a direct comparison of the HE rounds and an ammo mix for the HS.
Cool
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Pongo:
If explosive content is so important why didn't the Germans use Mine shells only? Why did anybody use anything besides HE rounds?
Hooligan
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Well you know why they used tracer...
Because late ww2 AC are multi role aircraft. And mixing the ammo was a way to cover your bet. A givin 1 second burst would have 3 tracers, 3 mines, and 3 AP. Sounds like a good hedge to me. Why not do that. I never said penetration is useless nor that kinetic energy is useless. I said that the most important part of the kill was intended to be achieved by chemical energy.
If penetration and kinetic energy are so important whey not just keep solid shot for the HS?
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Pongo, the reason that countries used both AP & HE is that they are both important (kinetic or explosive) is that not only do you need them for different missions, but also because depending on what part of the aircraft you are hitting, and from what aspect angle different shell types would be more effective. (my own theory and opinon of course)
On dead Six shots, AP is very good because it tends to go thru many many parts of the aircraft (including armor and engine blocks) before it becomes ineffective or exits the aircraft, where HE would detonate in the tail or on the skin limiting damage to that area.
On snapshots from planform aspects its just the opposite, AP would do little damage punching in and out of the skin doing little damage(say a wing), where the HE would blow a huge chunk of the wing out.
In my opinon you would probably need both like you said.
If you or anyone else can get the typical ammunition loadout of a hispano armed aircraft I will do the calculations you are asking for, but I don't know how the ammunition was loaded for Allied planes typically.
On the 30mm Cannon issue, let me explain. Several years ago while I was doing research on lethality (and running into a lack of hard data) I met a gentleman thru my job that works for a government contracter that dealt with various munitions. He was the plant engineer, and this company took old ammunition of various sizes, "de-manufactured it" and then recycled the components and sent the material to be used in new ammunition.
So he invited me to the plant, gave me a tour, and showed me quite a few things and gave me some interesting information on light to medium caliber shells and bullets, including how they were constructed, fusing, components, and a whole lot more. While I was there they were working on everything from 7.62mm Nato rounds up to and including WWII era 40mm AAA rounds.
I told him about my research into lethality and we spent some time in his office going thru his reference library, and thats where I got the information I quoted in the earlier post. Of course all the information was for American Ammunition, but I wanted something I could compare the German 30mm shells too to get a feel for how the larger shells were loaded with explosive in relation to weight, and the shell I quoted was what we found.
I am not sure exactly sure about when this 30mm was used, but we both thought from the available information that it was from the WWII to Korea era.
Now the 20mm info I quoted this guy was confident that it was representative of WWII shells, because his factory had "demanufactured" a large number of them. But the 30mm was not something he had worked with, so it was taken directly from the manual that I referenced.
The shell could have been from anything from a aircraft gun, to a anti-aircraft gun. I just included that as a FYI type of thing.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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Well all I know is if I have a f4u1c on my tail and I hear a ping - I know I'm dead.. thats it. Any other plane it's not nearly (or even close) to being as bad.
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Penetration, Kinetic Energy, explosive content and incendiary content are all important. The Hispano is superior to the Mg151 in all these respects except when comparing explosive content of 1/3 of the 151 rounds (Mine rounds) to HS HE rounds (11.2g vs 18.6g). Seems a bit of a stretch to me to assume that this 7g of explosive in 1/3 of the rounds is going to make up for the big differences in KE and penetration, not to mention the greater amounts of HE and incendiary compound in Hispano HE/I and AP/I rounds. You seem awfully hung up on the fact that both of these weapons are 20mm and should thus be approximately equal. A glance at the relative shell sizes would make any rational person suspect that the Hispano was a significantly more effective round.
Hooligan
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pongo... I stand by what I said. I say that you admit that you have no idea of what the relative leathiality of the two 20mm rounds (hs vs 151) in the game is. If I am incorrect then please tell me the ratio between the two and how you arrived at that figure please.
lazs
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Originally posted by -lazs- to pongo:
I say that you admit that you have no idea of what the relative leathiality of the two 20mm rounds (hs vs 151) in the game is. If I am incorrect then please tell me the ratio between the two and how you arrived at that figure please.
Why does he have to do the testing? If you're gung ho about these 'tests' why don't you go do it and prove him wrong, if thats what you want to do (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
No offense to you personally lazs, but some of us have been playing this game since the early months of open beta, the first night of open beta in my case. To have someone come over from WB's in the last week or two and try to 'straighten us out on gunnery' is kind of a stretch to say the least. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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don't be screwing with the guns.
period.
up the armor of the panzer and make it more susceptible to bombs but dont go fiddling with the guns which have already been fine tuned.
WB can go to hell with their idiotic guns debates, look what has happened to them over there. (shudder)
seems like we feel it necessary to bring that grief upon ourselves the way they did?
yuck.
"zip it"
"ziptititiatiiait"
"your like a child"
"hi shindo ru: subtitle: Zip it"
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Verm
I just am not aware of a production 30mm US ww2 weapon.
I agree with your assessment of the importance of the different types of rounds.
Of course all rounds(even the mine shell) have some kinetic component and some penetration.
Hooligan.
Guessing at my hang ups, while interesting is not going to help us here. So dont guess. here it is.
Not quoted from any book that I have ever read------
"Gerry overshot me like a rocket and attempted to seperate. He made the mistake of pulling up level at 1100 meters. Mustuv just returned from the east this one..hasnt heard about the Mk2 yet..Must have thought I was armed with 303s or something wot...Of course a medium length burst of my trusty Mk2s turned him into so much scrap metal. It was extremly risky to allow a 4 Hispano bird any shot at you whatsover at up to 1400 meters or so, suicide at a measly 800 m or less. We RAF types never understood why the yanks were so slow to accept the new world order in fighter weapons armement- or why gerry persisted in developing his varios and sudreid exotic cannons. HS was not theirs I suppose..But then its not ours either...Ha Ha fell on our laps from the French..we had the ticket for everything from ships to planes to tanks right there all along..
We all lived in dread of 4 years that Gerry would copy the thing and hoist us on it..But he never figured it out I guess."
Does anyone contest that accounts like that would exist if the Typhoons gun package was really as effective as it is here?
Can anyone find me an account even close to that?
Hundereds of thousands of sorties flown over a period of 4 years. No one noticed what is imediatly obvios to anyone in AH in one night. The Hispano is the single biggest factor that differentiates the different fighters in AH. The other cannons work, the 50s work If you can shoot well you can kill quite realisitcaly with any of the guns here. I dont have to prove that to anyone that has flown with or against me. But the HS in particular the 4 gun package is different than all the rest by a wide margin.
You can fly planes equiped with them alot different then the ones that dont have it. If you face a plane with them you have to fight it alot differnt then you do any other plane.
There is no historical precident for the magnitude of that difference. As we have seen there is excellent tecnical evidence for a sertain level of superiority. How much..Why does the gun modeling work so well even for the 2 cannon spit but seem to fall apart for the 4 cannon F4U?
Thats my hangup.
Pyro telling me he realized something was weird and he is keeping an eye on it is all I wanted to accomplish. So I can let this drop although I like to see the numbers and discussion from Verm and Funked and co about how you might decide the lethality of a given gun.
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Well.... hblair, I didn't say he HAD to do anything. I offered to test with him.
If each HS round was worth two 151 rounds would the HS's be overmodeled in your/his opinion? How bout 1.5? One to one? 0.7 to 1?
I don't get it.... Testing is considered worthless but anecdotal crap gathered online by people with various agendas, in the heat of virtual combat is considered gospel?
lazs
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Well. Is flying lots of missions with the aircraft not testing? We cant use the scientific method I suppose. But I feel more comfortable comparing apples and apples.
I am comparing the experiance of flying AH to how "I" percieve the expericance of flying in WW2 was. I would agree that the second is usless, but the first is not.
The belief that there is an imbalance in relation to the 4 HS package is generally accepted by lots of people in the comunity(I think most but I feel sure of lots). Why do we all play this horrible flawed game if Pongo is right and the HS is over modeled....
Because in many games the overmodeling would not even stand out. It is only in the context of the excellent gunfire system that it spikes quite badly. The other guns have been tweeked a little, the algorithms that effect their behavior have been tweeked a little. The damage models of the aircraft have been icrementaly improved and added to.(remember the paper tail on the 51 every one..)
The game has improved incrementaly. I love it. Most of us love it. I really like that I can contibute to the game. The contibution I am trying to make is to focus on the historical record. We are simulating a war that really happend and of which many records and recolections where kept. We are not simulating some ballistic tables. But where the tables, recorded history, game play and the comunitys and Pyros tastes meet is the game we want.
Cit raises the specter of somthing that apperantly happend in another game in which I was never involved. Perhaps you respond to my blabs so stronly because they remind you of some other debate that led straight to probelms, or maybe you really see the value of establishing the exact ratio of effectiveness between the 151 and the HS.
Well I canot effect the first.
And the second is accutally risky as it regards this discussion. So if we establish that the HS is 170% more effecitve then the 151 and Pongo convinces the comunity that it should only be 125% more effective then we throttle back the HS by that much and we are happy right....
There leads to what Cit is worried about
fuktuations.
Lets present our cases and let Pyro if he and HT agree look at the routines for gunfire resolution and find out why the HS spikes more than common experiance from WW2 might indicate it should especialy as it really only feels wrong with 4 of them. That way we will have the game in shape for the Kick butt russian and German and Japanese cannons that are down the pipe.
Maybe your contibution can be testing..
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Took u a long time to say it but it "feels" like you are saying that you "feel" the guns are off and that you "feel" that most people agree with you. U say that 2 HS gunsets are fine but 4 HS gunsets are somehow more than twice as powerful? How can this be? Look, I flew 6 fifty powered planes and cannon planes both and me and a couple of squaddies felt they were very weak. We felt outgunned big time and really racked up the assists. Switched to cannon planes and rack up the kills again. 6 fifties should be devestating in close ,equal to or better than the Spit nine in firepower. What is your "feel" for the fifty cal equipped birds?
Anyway... The offer still stands. Test with me in the arena and let's see what is really going on.
lazs
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What you think the 50 is weaker than cannons..You may be onto something there.
The only thing im likly to be testing anytime soon is your patience. But like I said fill your boots.
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Pongo... after reading a lot of your posts in this and other threads, I can see why you wouldn't want to test anything.
lazs
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Glad you have worked that out then...
I flew the 6 gun FW for the firs time in a long time yesterday. I will admit that the addition of 2 unsycronized 151s adds alot of wollop to the the plane. I got some kills that felt almost like a 1c. I guess back when I wrote them off as not worth the weight I was shooting at about 5%. At 10% the extra weight of fire seems to be more useful.
Then I flew a 1c and got a 870 yrd snap shot kill on another 1c... put my 151s right back in their place.
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TEST
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WHEN i fly the 190, 1 ping always kills my engine,,,, i find the 20mm does more damage than the 30mm's,,,, Niki's 20mm are just fine with me,,,,,f4-c's ammo is very very lethal,,,,i can't buy a kill with pony's 50's,,,,these are my observations..... Now bring on the KI !!!!
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Pongo:
It sounds like you are now saying that 4xMg151 hits close to as hard as 4xHispano. Has ballistics and time-of-flight suddenly become the problem?
Hooligan
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I dont know if it hits as hard Hooligan. I dont think it does. You may or may not have noticed that I have no trouble killing with a 2 gun FW. I was never saying there was anything the matter with the 2 gun FW. But kills with and by the HS still feel wrong to me from both sides. I was just pointing out that flying the 4 cannon FW for the first time in a long time. It hits real hard.. I shot down 4 fighters (starting from advantage but not vulch) and still had 550 rds of 20mm left. More then enought to kill a buff after I ran out of gas. No supprise to anyone here that a loaded FW hits hard. I was a bit suprised flying it after after 5 months that it hit so nice. The death range in front of a FW is still only 600 yards for fighters(and that is a long shot). The Death range in front of a 1c is still 900-1100
Still doenst feel right.. But my ingame testing contiues.....
I am willing to learn. As are many here.
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Originally posted by Hooligan:
Penetration, Kinetic Energy, explosive content and incendiary content are all important. The Hispano is superior to the Mg151 in all these respects except when comparing explosive content of 1/3 of the 151 rounds (Mine rounds) to HS HE rounds (11.2g vs 18.6g). Seems a bit of a stretch to me to assume that this 7g of explosive in 1/3 of the rounds is going to make up for the big differences in KE and penetration, not to mention the greater amounts of HE and incendiary compound in Hispano HE/I and AP/I rounds. You seem awfully hung up on the fact that both of these weapons are 20mm and should thus be approximately equal. A glance at the relative shell sizes would make any rational person suspect that the Hispano was a significantly more effective round.
Hooligan
thank you hooligan. I am a 2W071--or a munitions troop if you will in the USAF--have been for 12 years. I am also an avid reloader of high powered rifle ammo. I have searched for then explosive data for the german ammo and the hispanos and havent been able to find it. Whered you get it?
He is exactly on the money--in the relatively small caliber ammunition explosive content plays a secondary roll in its destructive power. A projectiles Kinetic energy and its exterior and terminal ballistics are its primary factor in determining its destructive force. The german ammo was very good, but the Hispanos were higher velocity and ballistic coefficient of the projectile were better.
comparing the both would be like comparing 30 caliber carbine to 30-06 springfield or even 30 caliber weatherby magnum. Or for another example--45 caliber ACP to 458 winchester magnum. Now although the caliber of these examples are exactly the same caliber the difference in performance is extreme. 45 acp will do well with 240 grain projectile to get 900 fps, while the 458 WinMag with a 510 grain projectile will do 2200 fps.
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Ammo:
I have a good bit of information on the .50 BMG that I gathered myself from various locations: (the WEB, declassified US army airforce and Navy documents). I also have a good bit of info on German guns that -ireg- and Gerzzz got from Rechlin and Mauser. My information on Hispanos is comparatively sparse, but a book is coming out soon that should have a lot of useful information.
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/ (http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/)
I got the HE content of the HS HE/I shell from Vermillion.
Do you want me to send you some scans of German round data?
Hooligan
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yes please Hooligan--TY
saved4sure@esn.net
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Come to the con and I'll show you some cool stuff.
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
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"comparing the both would be like comparing 30 caliber carbine to 30-06 springfield or even 30 caliber weatherby magnum. Or for another example--45 caliber ACP to 458 winchester magnum. Now although the caliber of these examples are exactly the same caliber the difference in performance is extreme. 45 acp will do well with 240 grain projectile to get 900 fps, while the 458 WinMag with a 510 grain projectile will do 2200 fps.
"
Man are statements like that stupid.
The only thing more useless then paroting the velocity of the HS round is trying to draw some lame connection to your favorite hand loads as if that has more importance to discussion then the operational capabililities or the HS that were recorded in WW2. The hand loaders guide to cannon design.
What a crock.
Those WW2 gun debate pages give the hispano a 15% higher Q factor then the 151...That sounds more reasonable to me.(oh ya. Im not a reasonable person)
[This message has been edited by Pongo (edited 05-16-2000).]
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Pongo, go back and read the definition of what the "Q Factor" is, its not applicable in the way you are applying it.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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Details Details....
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Hehehehe Pongo:
Yes by all means let's treat q-factor as an accurate representation of a gun's lethality.
Soviet UBK MGs have a q-factor of 14,500. For the ShVAK it's 11,300. For the Mg151/20mm it's 8650.
Bring on the Yak-3 uberplane, according to Pongo it has more firepower than a FW-190A8 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Hooligan