Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: Mister Fork on July 08, 2004, 08:20:30 PM
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One of the biggest challenges we have on the CT admin side is trying to use historically correct matchups. We try to keep into account that sometimes service dates and production numbers may not be accurate as it was back in WWII.
To help us out, take a look at our Service Dates below created and edited by former CT staff. If you have good reliable data to update our list, we would greatly appreciate it. We'll then recomplie the data and post it across the board and use it as a future reference for the CT. Bolded with a ? after the year are ones we need help. * items have further info on possible alternate historical uses due to similar configurations with other models.
US Army:
A-20G ... 5-42
B-17G ... 6-43*
B-26B ... 5-42
C-47A ... 12-41
P-38L ... 7-44
P-40B ... 1-41
P-40E ... 8-41
P-47D-11 ... 1-44?*
P-47D-25 ... 4-44
P-47D-40 ... 10-44?
P-51B ... 12-43
P51D ... 5-44?*
U.S.Navy:
F4F-4 ... 41?
FM-2 ... 9-43
F4U-1 ... 10-42
F4U-1D ... 4-44
F4U-1C ... 4-45
F4U-4 ... 4-45
F6F-5 ... 7-44
SBD-5 ... 5-43?*
TBM-3 ... 1-42
British:
Boston MK III ... 5-41
Hurricane Mk I ... 12-37
Hurricane IIC ... 4-41
Hurricane IID ... 6-42
Lancaster III ... 3-42*
Mosquito Mk VI ... 7-43
Seafire IIC ... 10-42
Spitfire Mk IA ... 6-38
Spitfire V ... 4-41
Spitfire Mk IX ... 7-42
Spitfire Mk XIV ... 1-44!*
Tempest V ... 5-44
Typhoon ... 6-42*
Russian:
Il-2 Type 3 ... 10-42
La-5FN ... 3-43
La-7 ... 6-44
Yak-9T ... 1-43
Yak-9U ... 3-44
Italian:
C.202 ... 11-41
C.205 ... 1-43
Japanese:
A6M2 ... 7-40
A6M5b ... 3-44*
D3A-1 ... 37?
B5N2... 38?
Ki-61 ... 44???
Ki-67 ... 4-44!*
N1K2-J ... 11-44?*
German:
Ar 234B ... 12-44
Bf 109E-4 ... 5-40
Bf 109F-4 ... 6-41
Bf 109G-2 ... 5-42
Bf 109G-6 ... 10-42
Bf 109G-10 ... 3-44*?
Bf 110C-4b ... 7-40
Bf 110G-2 ... 5-42
Fw 190A-5 ... 3-43
Fw 190A-8 ... 2-44
Fw 190D-9 ... 9-44
Fw 190F-8 ... 3-44?
Ju 88A-4 ... 12-40
Me 163 .... 1-44?
Me 262 ... 7-44
Ta 152H ... 2-45
Notes:
*B-17G ... 6-43; The B-17G did enter service in 1943, however the B-17G in AH has the stepped waist guns and improved tail turret of a 1944 B-17G. This shouldn't have too much impact on gameplay though, being mainly limited to the greater range of movement in the tail turret.
*P-47D-11 ... 1-44?; This is based on my recollections of statements made by others in the "Give the P-47D-11 a paddle bladed prop" threads. However, given that the AH P-47D-11 lacks the paddle bladded prop it is a decent approximation of a P-47D-5, which entered service in 3-43.
*P51D ... 5-44?; The P-51D entered production in 2-44, so it clearly did not enter service in 1-44. I have looked and looked for a service entry date or a theatre arrival date for the P-51D, but have not (shockingly so given the aircraft's fame), been able to find even a hind. I am guestimating a 3 month lag between entering production and entering service.
*SBD-5 ... 5-43?; The SBD-5 entered production in 2-43, so like the P-51D I am guestimating a 3 month lag from production to service. I only found this information tonight (of course, I only looked for it tonight ) and have to admit to being somewhat disappointed in HTC about it. The SBD-5 introduced the 1,200hp R-1820-60, which brought with it a noticable performance jump. The SBD-2 and SBD-3 that fought the Battles of Coral Sea and Midway were powered by a 1,000hp engine and the SBD-2 lacked the dual rear gun. At the same time as we have a late SBD, we have an early D3A. The D3A1 is the aircraft that the Japanese used at Pearl Harbor, Coral Sea and Midway, but like the US with the SBD a better version was to be produced in greater quantity. The D3A2 entered production in 8-42 and boosted the top speed of the D3A by 39mph. As it is in AH, the US gets a over boosted aircraft and is in an artificial position of technical superiority, or greater superiority, than they should be.
*Lancaster III ... 3-42; The .50 calibre guns in the AH Lanc's tail mark it as a late war Lancaster, probably 1944. However, that change, particularly in light of its paltry ammunition supply (I'd probably prefer four .303s with 4,000 rounds), shouldn't have too much of an impact on the game. Limiting early access to the Lanc based on the tail turret might be justified.
*Spitfire Mk XIV ... 1-44!; The Spitfire entered service with 610 Squadron on January 3rd, 1944. 3-44 is the date of the first kill (a Ju88), but it was operational and on patrols prior to that.
*Typhoon ... 6-42; The only significant change, in the context of AH, that I am aware of is the change to a bubble canopy in late 1943. The performance of the Typhoon Mk Ib, so far as I can tell, remained relatively unchanged. The major difference between a 1942 Typhoon and a 1944 Typhoon was in it's reliability, which is a non-issue in AH.
*A6M5b ... 3-44!; The only difference between an A6M5a, which entered service in 1-44, and an A6M5b is the switching of one of the 7.7mm machine guns in the cowling for a 12.7mm machine gun. Substituting the A6M5b for A6M5b is reasonable. The A6M5 entered service in 8-43, but was significantly less pretected than the A6M5b. Nonetheless, this switch is probably still reasonable.
*Ki-67 ... 4-44!; The Ki-67 entered service with the IJA in 4-44. The first IJN usage as a torpedo bomber is in 10-44. Most Ki-67s were built in 1945.
*N1K2-J ... 11-44?; Production began in of the N1K2-J began in 6-44 and I have seen data that claiming that 60 were delivered in 1944. My best source for N1K2 combat entry is 150 miles away from me right now.
*Bf109G-10 ...3-44/10-44/1-45. There have been three service dates referenced to the G-10. It is believed that the G-10 may have been in production as earlier G varients with the new 605 engine in March of 44. Yet other source point to an absolute entry date of October. There is also a thought that our G-10 is closer to the K variant than the G but is a G due to weapons loadouts.
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Although I haven't any data at the moment to add for service dates. I just wanted to take the time to
Mister Fork for this approach and effort.
Vote Bug:aok
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Thank you for posting that list and for your comments Fork, it is very interesting. A couple of things I noted, the F4F-4 came into service in the spring of '42, while with both the FAA and USN the F4F-3 went into Squadron service in November-December 1940. At Coral Sea all VF's flew -3's but by Midway all VF squads (though not VMF) were flying -4's. None of this is a big deal in the context of AH since the performance difference between the -3 and -4 is there, but not great, mainly its the extra 2 guns and folding wings.
Also, it appears that the Spit 14, Tempest, and P-51D are left out of a lot of sets that by their service date should be included.
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Personally, I think the dates should be first used in *combat* dates, or first squadron sized service (sometimes that is before combat). In other words, dont mix apples and oranges. Pick one and stick with it. Prototype flown, or any test dates should be excluded completely, imho.
P-51D, 5-44 would be the earliest date I can see as being beleivable, but I cant find any sources for operationally flown P-51Ds prior to June 44 (6-44) in the ETO with USAAF Fighter Groups.
Both the Tempest (6-44) and Spit XIV (1-44) were kept in G.B. untill @ 9-44 when they returned to the continent after the V-1 threat was over, for what its worth. That also coincides nicely with the arrival of the 190D-9 in service.
Yak-9U. 3-44 seems awfully early too?, but I have no source yet on that one. What I have found hints at mid 44 to fall 44. 3-44 would put it into service before the Yak-3, and thats dubious.
N1K2. 1st combat was 10-44 when they deployed to Luzon, the Phillipines.
F4U-1. Feb 43 (2-43) 1st combat in the Solomons. Again, thats a combat date not a service date.
109G-10. DB605D engine, same as the 109K. Delivered to the LW at the same time as the 109K, October 44 (10-44). 109G-14 ( 7-44) was in service before it, so 3-44 makes no sense, and I cant find any reliable source that puts it there.
Thats what I have, for what its worth, the rest looks close to me.
Also note that PTO, MED, CBI, and ETO dates are not the same, so that muddies the waters even further. Example the P-51D was deployed to Luzon, the Phillipines, (Pacific debut) in 12-44.
For myself, when Im designing a Squad Operation, I usually go case by case, and just try to dig up the info. An exhaustive list is a pretty big job.
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Originally posted by Squire
Yak-9U. 3-44 seems awfully early too?, but I have no source yet on that one. What I have found hints at mid 44 to fall 44. 3-44 would put it into service before the Yak-3, and thats dubious.
Yakolev's Piston Engined Fighters by Gordon/Khazamov has 42nd Guards IAP completely equipted with Yak-9Us in August 44, so that would back you up. They may have seen combat in small batches before that though.
-Sik
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Thanks Sik, its tough to find decent info on the Yak-9U.
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Originally posted by Squire
Thanks Sik, its tough to find decent info on the Yak-9U.
I know. I'm actually signed up for Russian Classes in the fall so that I can better read original language documents lol.
And I still can't find a decent Photo of the top of a Yak-9T/D/M wing.
-Sik
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The major reason you don't see specific P-51D introduction dates is that the initial P-51D's went as replacements for losses to groups that were already operating P-51B/C's. So they just sort of trickled in and intermingled with the existing Mustangs. The P-51D never did fully replace the P-1B/C in the ETO. This is why you see so many photos of the two Mustang types mixed together.
The first P-51D's arrived in Europe in late March 1944 and were in combat very soon after that point, certainly by early April. Because of the delays in the shipping system, P-51B/C's were still being delivered alongside the new P-51D's for a period of time.
The first group I know of that received a squadron-size batch of P-51D's all at once was the 55th FG which switched from P-38's to P-51D's in June 1944.
It was much later in 1944 before P-51D's arrived in the Pacific.
J_A_B
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Thats whats confusing, because you get sources that state the 55th FG was the first to convert in June/July 44, but you get info on earlier Ds with other units. I find it odd that so many unit histories fail to mention when they got their first D models, but many don't. You would have thought it would be noteworthy?
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Squire, you've brought up an interesting point...Should we have PTO and ETO dates for aircraft? BTW - thanks for the help. At the end of this discussion, I'll redo the service date list.
Also, if anyone has service dates for our vehicles, I would appreciate it
- Panzer
- Tiger
- M8
- LVT's
- M16
- Ostie
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Wonderful thread. Isn't there an official Aces High list of when aircraft types first became operational (by whatever definition, e.g., first squadron, first mission, whatever)?
I've seen various lists, including one annotated as Westy MOL BB History 7-17-01. Gotta be a bunch floating around somewhere.
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Production or first used in combat -
Tiger - Aug 29 1942
Osti - July 1944
Panzer - 1941 (??)
M8 - May 19 1942
LVT - Early 1942
M16 - May 1943
Hope that helps. (some may be wrong, but pretty close)
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First combat use of the LVT1 was Aug '42 at Guadalcanal, although very few were there they were critical.
Production did not begin on the PanzerIV H (our version) until April '43.
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I would say "yes" Mr Fork, it would be nice to have a PTO list as well, at some point. That being said I think any list should only be used as a benchmark, and the CT setups should never be absolutely bound to dates, but I think a generalised understanding of service/combat dates can be usefull as a reference.
Despite commenting on some discrepancies, I for one am not a fan of players beating each other over the head with service dates to give their side some edge, but I see nothing wrong with knowing the @ date of an a/c in a theater.
Im not sure the GV dates are all that relevent, there are so few, and they almost always sub for something else, example, there are no allied tanks in AH at all, so, im not sure at this point dates matter with GVs. Deploy them in the CT setups as needed.
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here is a great site on WWII tanks i has dates on most the tanksWWII Tanks (http://www.wwiivehicles.com/index.htm)
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heres the date where these tanks where first introduced into combat:
Panzer IV H - April 1943
Tiger - August 1942
M8 - First saw action in Italy in March 1943
LVT - Were first used at Guadalcanal in August 1942
M16 - May 1943
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Yeah fork!
I would even take this a step further. Rather than dates, do the planeset of a particular engagement. Much like we do with midway scenarios. The setup only lasts a week, what planes were there during a week of north africa? 4 109 varients? Doubtful.
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I asked Mr. Fiedler about when he flew the 51 he responded to me with this...
I flew my first flight in a P-51B on May 22nd 1944. The 325th flew its first mission in the B/C models on May 27, ’44. Six of us newly assigned pilots had been flown to Casablanca where we picked up brand new P-51s and flew them back to Italy. That was interesting as I think we each had about 5 to 8 hours in the 51 and our trip back was about 1700 miles over some very rough terrain that we had never seen before.
My first official combat mission was June 13th to Munich in a P-51C. I flew a mission almost every day until June 30th at which time I got a new bird, a P-51D which I kept all during my tour.
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MTO got the P-51D's later than the ETO did. PTO and CBI later still.
J_A_B