Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Morpheus on July 08, 2004, 08:42:07 PM
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Is it just happening to me or has anyone else gotten in to the stall/flatspin from hell in the P38?
I mean last night I was winging with stang in 38s... We were BS'n on text and noticed that we were at 15k so we were about to go LVL when stang starts yelling "Tempest! Tempest!". Without hesitation I hit flaps and break off to the right. IAS was about 200mph.
I dont know how I didn't lose more parts but I only took hits to one engine oil and a fuel tank from the temp. After he overshot I pulled the nose back up from beneath him and I lost all controls. The plane literally started falling out of the sky. When I lost control I was at about 225+mph... Slow but not too slow and the manuver I was making I had made a hundred times before but this time the plane just didn't like it.
Anyways.. I fell from 15k down to 5K before I could regain control. I had almost given up but I was so agrivated that the plane wasn't doing what it should do and has done many times before I kept on trying. I have no idea what I did to get out of the stall... I couldnt get the nose down enough to get up speed for controled flight... But slowly I had gotten the nose down and out of the horrible flat spin and pulled out just in time. The whole time I was in the stall it said I was doing a little over 100mph. You can keep in a climb at just over 90 and sometimes less. I tried to recreate this stall but it just wouldnt do it again.
I have posted on this problem before and PYRO made some adjustments to the 38 that seemed to correct some problems that people were having. I thought this was one of them... Until last night that is.
Dont get me wrong. I love how the 38 handles. It flys like a dream... When it is flying that is... :)
But... But... But...
This stall/flatspin that was nearly imposible to get out of is a bit much. And seemed a bit wrong.
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exactly why I don't fly it.....
I have a tendency to pull quickly on stick for maneuvers....and that ain't good in a 38....
always get caught with that damn snap....
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Yeah... I know what you mean but thats not really what I am refering to here slo. In AH1 you used to be able to pull back on the stick and going into a constant spin... It was one of the most comical things I think I've seen. Not saying that it was right but it was also very controlable. Once you let go of the stick it would pretty much get out of the spin on its own.
Last night I was in more of a flatspin than anything else. The 38 really doesn't like to make flat turns. If you make your turns at more of an angled form she will reverse or break turn very well and very fast. I really do not know how I got into this very bad flat spin. But it was a bad one to say the very least.
But that quick and sudden snap roll is one that is very easy to get out of and recover from relativley fast.
Bah... I dont know... Maybe this is the way the 38 should be. I'd like to think not and certainly hope not. But from what I've read about it, this isn't the P38L that was as forgiving at slow speeds and stalls in real life. But again, this isn't real life and I have never flown a P38. God wouldn't that be the coolest thing evar! hehehe :D I could crash it and die (which i probably would anyways if I were to attempt to fly one) and I would die a happy man with a on my face.
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Try the P-40 yet Morpheus?.....It snaps very bad at low speeds and since i never have much altitude it's not recoverable....ask ramzey...he saw me do it last night.... But i guess it is pretty much historical as P-40s did have a great tendency to snap roll and stall out at low speeds and low alt...A bunch of real life pilots died from this
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Absolutly Wadke. It seems a little more 'telegraphic' though with the P40. I mean you pretty much know its going to snap before it does.
And again this wasn't a snap roll :) Rather the plane just lost all controled foward flight and fell out of the sky nearly 10,000 feet before I was able to regain control. To me that just aint right.
So, I just want to make it clear that this isn't a 'snap roll' that is happening.
It just let go of the sky and fell outof the sky. The nose was almost imposible to get pointed down.
At low alt I could and would expect to hit the ground in a fairly bad stall. But to have to use up 10,000 feet in order to regain control... Again, IMHO something just isn't right here.
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it is still beta you know........
no wait errrr.....:o
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kill throttle, push nose down, with ruddr if needed, then throttle up? works for me.
~S~
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Side note. I seem to recall a few warbird pilot manuals that state, do NOT spin the aircraft.
If you think about it Ethell was a top shelf warbird pilot. They're dangerous when "stuff" happens.
It isn't a cessna 150.
2 centavos, ducketts, beggeeta's..
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Originally posted by Wadke
Try the P-40 yet Morpheus?.....It snaps very bad at low speeds and since i never have much altitude it's not recoverable....ask ramzey...he saw me do it last night.... But i guess it is pretty much historical as P-40s did have a great tendency to snap roll and stall out at low speeds and low alt...A bunch of real life pilots died from this
Definitely Wadke. It's happened to me twice and both times were with massive flap usage. You're able to pull a huge AoA, but while you're in the process, you can really feel your bellybutton slide right out in front of you. It *is* recoverable but it comes with a BIG altitude loss. If you're under 2k forget it :)
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Must be pilot error on the part of a totally incompetent pilot. After all, I've been hearing that for quite some time now. I'm sure several of the experts, the ones who neither fly nor study the P-38, will be in here soon to tell you the P-38 had terrible stall characteristics and you suck as a pilot. Interesting how that works, isn't it?
It doesn't happen often, just once in a while, but they sure are exceptionally nasty aren't they? No rhyme or reason either.
The manual said don't spin it at low altitude.
And Ethell was killed by a combination of things that included a modified plane, and a lack of experience in the P-38. It is sad that he was infact killed by the very errors he wrote about in his last article. On the other hand, a very famous author who is an expert on the P-38 and who knew Ethell once told me that not all that is known about the crash has been written, and that much of what has been written does not at all add up.
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I always thought the P-38 should have nasty habits like that at high bank angles and g forces. Shouldn't it?
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Everything I've read about it said the P-38 had no tendency to flat-spin... the stall under "clean" configuration was a mushing of the nose downward.
I'll have to grab my copy of AHT and copy & paste (well, type anyway) the section on the stall characteristics of the P-38. Tommorrow I will.
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I'm sure several of the experts, the ones who neither fly nor study the P-38, will be in here soon to tell you the P-38 had terrible stall characteristics and you suck as a pilot.
heh.
I dont know why but for some reason I couldn't care less. lol I mean really this is a game. If they want to be Mr GQ of the sky or atleast think they are more power to them. If a game means that much to them and their pathedick little lives then I think they deserve the stardom.
At one point in the game I honestly did care about becoming better. And spent quite a bit of time working at it. Now, for some odd reason I... well Idontgiveadam :D Can I be any more clear? heh :)
Anyways... I see that some of our 'stars' are ariving so I'll hand the mic over and let them wow the crowd. ;)
Really now the only reason I even sign on is to say hello to my buds in the game and maybe get a kill or two. Care less about the kills tho.
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I think there is an issue where the FE loses data. I've landed a few times and the breaks stick at a certain point - i.e, they work but at certain point the plane quits slowing down. Pull up the nose at 40 mph and still rolling strong:) Cant tell you how many times I've had to drive back onto the runway because of this. I think the same lack of data could cause the spin you are talking about.
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In everything I have read/studied regarding spins, it always came that a vertical spin/tail spin was most times recoverable, but the horizontal/flat spin was nearly impossible to recover from. As for your speed showing near 100, that seems odd as you put it, you would think it would be showing "0" until you popped out/gained control then it would jump to the correct IAS...........
disclaimer: I am not an expert, I do not fly the AH2 38 much, and I know not as much as the Pro's that claim they do!;)
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Been asking questions about stalls. bozon once told me;
"Once normal airflow is lost over the wings, anything can happen."
I understand that as 'there's no such thing as an aircraft that is safe from stalls' - especially, when it enters a violent stage.
We assume the P-38 to be a gentle, forgiving plane in that it has no torque - which, is usually what pulls a plane into a violent spin as it meets a stall.
However, if for any reason airflow is disrupted while the P-38 enters a stall, I don't think there's any reason to just assume that the P-38, despite all that, will still be a gentle plane.
Such stalls happen to all aircraft of AH:
* A Spitfire, a forgiving plane with fantastic maneuverability at low speeds and high AoA, will whip into a violent flat spin, which is initiated by the rudder action which spins the plane in its yaw axis 180 degrees and brings the nose over the horizon - when excessive amount of rudder is applied while sudden pull on stick.
* The 190 and 109 have a high tendency of falling into a inverted flat spin when 'whipping the nose down' process during a vertical goes wrong.
* The Ta152 will fall into an almost irrecoverable tail-slide when it goes vertical to 0mph and stays there for too long.
* Even Hurricanes and Zeros, sometimes fall into a nasty situation when the plane meets a stall while the nose is above the horizon.
The problem with most of the above mentioned cases, is typically when massive amount of flap is applied, or when Combat Trim is engaged. Also, it typically happens, when your plane stalls out during a vertical, or when your plane enters a stall during slow maneuvering when nose is above the horizon.
The flaps and/or combat trim, prevent the plane from nosing down naturally and regaining normal airflow with increasing speed. If you look at the speed guage while in such a state, you will notice that your speed hardly exceeds 200mph during a flat spin where you fall out of the sky.
What I've learned is, never, ever use combat trim when going vertical. If you fall into a such stall, the first thing you need to do is bring all trim to neutral, throttle down or turn of engines to reduce torque to minimum, engage rudder to opposite direction of spin, and push the stick to heave the nose down. Sometimes, in a flat spin, aileron input can help, so the plane rolls over to one side, gets out of the flat spin and then enter a normal spin.
..
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The P-38 with no bank and high angle of attack might stall gently, but at a high angle of bank and high g load I don't think gentle is a term I would use.
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However, if for any reason airflow is disrupted while the P-38 enters a stall, I don't think there's any reason to just assume that the P-38, despite all that, will still be a gentle plane.
You are 100% right.
With that being said I've also flown the P51 just as much if not more than the 38 in AH2. I've taken it to and beyond its limits many times before. Not once did I get into a stall that it took me 10,000 feet to regain control.
I guess its just going to have to be "one of those things" sad but true.
Ah well. With the amount of time I've spent playing AH2 in the last month or so... I doubt I will lose much sleep over the whole thing.
Thanks for your replies.
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Might be a "twin-engine" thing in the flight model.
Widewing said he found something similar in the Mosquito.
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Snipped from what I put in the other P-38 thread ...
Last night I was fighting 2 109s or 190s or 1 of each ... all I know is that they had a 1 a 0 and a 9 ... anyways, I attacked one of them that I had the better angle on and pinged him up on multiple passes while avoiding the other one. I finally get nose up (elevator trimmed up to the max and 1 notch of flaps) to the right for a deflection shot and send a stream that cuts his wing off. At this point I am slow but still within the boundries of stall fighting the P-38.
Number 2 is now 1K behind me and zooming up so I kick hard rudder, to swing the nose in the direction that I had established for the deflection shot, to try to get nose down under his zoom.
In the blink of an eye I am spinning counter-clockwise very rapidly. I cut throttle, kick opposite rudder, retract flaps ... I tried everything I could think of and nothing would stop the rapid flat spin. I would say that the spin started at between 3-4K and I ended up in the drink. I was pissed !!! to say the least.
I don't know if the spin was induced correctly for the conditions that I created or if I should have been able to pull out of it, but it just doesn't seem right to me ... I could be wrong.
Also, if I have trimmed for level flight and take my hand off the stick, the plane wants to yaw to the left and it doesn't matter what direction the wind is blowing.
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Lockheed produced a series of newsletters called Hangar Flying filled with tips and humorous cartoons.
========== Issue 2 ==================
The '38 is a pilot's dream-come-true when it comes to the stall characteristics. They are unusually good and-although not generally used-are worthwhile investigating so that in an emergency you will know what performance to expect from your ship. We have discovered that the power stall occurs at about 70 M.P.H. with about a 50-foot loss of altitude. The counter rotating propellers eliminate torque and there is no tendency for either wing to dip or fall away.
You will find "she" is just as steady in a power off stall with gear and flaps retracted or extended. One of the finest characteristics of the '38 is the accelerated stall. Such stalls, accompanied by normal buffeting, occur on any ship when the angle of attack is increased to the point that the airflow over the wing becomes turbulent.
As you know, this can happen in sharp turns, pull-outs or other severe maneuvers. The '38 is designed to take the buffeting of the stall and has no tendency to fall off on either wing at any altitude. If combat necessitates, you can hold it in the accelerated stall as long as you can take the buffeting -- the ship will take it much longer. To get out of an accelerated stall immediately, ease up on the stick, permitting the airflow to reestablish normal lift.
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This is not what I am finding when flying the P-38.
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Thanks for that info Slapshot.
I hope Pyro or any one of the other HTC staff will take a closer look at the P38. To me, and for all of the reading I have done on it which is fairly extencive, the P38 in AH2 just doesn't seem right in some areas. ( In comaprison) My main concern is in the stal characteristics. Other than that I really enjoy the plane. I do not have the time I used to have to fly it now but the time I have spent in it has been really very enjoyable.
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Originally posted by Urchin
Might be a "twin-engine" thing in the flight model.
Widewing said he found something similar in the Mosquito.
Hmmm... I was about to make the same comment, Urchin. The Mossie has some very unusual (or at least violently different from AH1) stall characteristics now.
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Originally posted by MoRphEuS
Thanks for that info Slapshot.
I hope Pyro or any one of the other HTC staff will take a closer look at the P38. To me, and for all of the reading I have done on it which is fairly extencive, the P38 in AH2 just doesn't seem right in some areas. ( In comaprison) My main concern is in the stal characteristics. Other than that I really enjoy the plane. I do not have the time I used to have to fly it now but the time I have spent in it has been really very enjoyable.
I hope they do too. I know they have bigger fish to fry at the moment, and like you, I am still having fun with the P-38 regardless, so I will wait patiently for them to get their arms around this.
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Yesterday I was in a turn fight with a zeke. He hit my fuel so you could see the path I had taken behind me. Well I was in a turn and not exactly sure what happened but I just lost ALL forward momentem. This was in H2H so you could look in external view, I looked at the side view and I was going down at about an 80º angle (judging from the fuel leak). I was able to put out full flaps, wes putting throttle on idle for a minute, then back to full just to see if there was a difference. No matter what I did NOTHING changed the stall; rudder, throttle, anything.
Heck... I was even able to put out my gear and hope for a soft landing (no luck there :lol )
Now some odd reason that doesnt strike me as normal.
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Slap your scenario sounds like an induced flat spin. You were slow nose up. When you kicked the rudder, what did your nose do? Did you try to keep it up with further backpressure or let it drop?
If you tried to hold it up you are basically rotating the tail around the nose with yaw and at low speed this would initiate the flat spin, especially if your inertia is still moving in the opposite direction i.e. before you kicked the rudder.
One thing I have noticed while practicing aerobatic maneuvers in the TA, is consecutive snap rolls will put me into an uncontrollable flat spin in the F6F, LA7 and P47.
I also notice the blurb talks about stalls and not flat spins. Two very different animals.
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Now some odd reason that doesnt strike me as normal.
Nope it doesn't:)
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I've seen at least 2 p38's spin in from alt in the last month, have you tried cutting engine, hard rudder, then let plane go into a notmal vertical spin which is easy to get out of?
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Originally posted by MoRphEuS
You are 100% right.
With that being said I've also flown the P51 just as much if not more than the 38 in AH2. I've taken it to and beyond its limits many times before. Not once did I get into a stall that it took me 10,000 feet to regain control.
I guess its just going to have to be "one of those things" sad but true.
Ah well. With the amount of time I've spent playing AH2 in the last month or so... I doubt I will lose much sleep over the whole thing.
Thanks for your replies.
I have personal experience with the AH1 and AH2 Mustang in a flat spin like the one you have described and lost 10K or more alt.
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I tried this offline. I could not recover from flat spin below 7k. At about 8k I was able to get it out, barely. I used an offset forced oscillation until I could keep the nose down, and it came out. I didn't chase the nose, but rather timed the pitch movements with it.
Holding top rudder at the edge of stall will bite you at high bank angles while pulling g's. Again, I think that's the way it should be.
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Originally posted by Scatcat
I have personal experience with the AH1 and AH2 Mustang in a flat spin like the one you have described and lost 10K or more alt.
I've never gotten in a stall that I couldn't get out of in a P51. And I spend much of my flying time turn fighting it aginst Niks and spits and 109s ect. NOT once have I gotten into trouble in it that I couldn't recover from. And it sure as hell has never fallen from 15k down to 5 before I could gain control!
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Mosquito has that same thing the P38 has only worse maybe some people should try flying it some time?
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I can recover it with 1000 feet loss,
Turn off the engine at the opposite side of the flat spin.
If the P-38 spins left, turn off engine 2(starboard). If P-38 spins right, turn off engine 1(port)
{edit} Well, maybe I was lucky that time. It takes about 4~5k average for me...
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You can watch a short film of the Mossie's strange stall behavior and read what I think is wrong with the FM in this thread. (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=122476)
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Kweassa
I can recover it with 1000 feet loss,
Turn off the engine at the opposite side of the flat spin.
If the P-38 spins left, turn off engine 2(starboard). If P-38 spins right, turn off engine 1(port)
{edit} Well, maybe I was lucky that time. It takes about 4~5k average for me...
and if your not spinning at all? In my lil story about the zeke encounter, I was not spinning at all, just simply falling.
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It sure was a wierd looking spin. After he entered it I came around and flew by, thinking half his plane had to be missing to be doing those gymnastics, but the plane looked almost intact. I wonder if the force of shells hitting the plane + the sudden hii G maneuver could be the culpirt? Or is the force of shells striking the airframe even modeled? All I know is it was the strangest stall I've seen Morph. :confused:
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hmm, ive been in stall, had airspeed at 200, but i was just fallin straight down, like a sheet of paper, no thrust in any direction. is this the same type of stall you talking about?
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yep. Stall buzzer wasnt going off either.
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I think falling flat on the belly, is possible.
Ofcourse, just exactly what one has to do, to get in such a state, I have no idea(well, I do have an idea, but not straightened out yet).
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So I think there are two questions we're asking here:
1) Just how much does the benevolent characteristics of the P-38, help in resisting fatal spins?
2) Is the kind of stall we see in AH, possible in real life? Or is it due to limitations of computer generated FM?
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Actually, when I was testing the flat spin out myself, I kept having trouble because no matter what I did, it won't fall into that certain spin(I know what it is you talk of). In most cases, even in flat spins, the nose naturally came under the horizon, and a slight push on the stick, rudder work, and perhaps engine control, was enough to recover very quickly.
I don't remember exactly how, but in certain cases the flat spin would start out with the nose above horizon, and then, in that state, even when the nose came down it wouldn't recover - this one's almost impossible to get out without alt.
It could be because the FM has troubles with two-engined planes, and if it is indeed that.. maybe it'll be fixed soon(or perhaps, in the worst case scenario, it may be something that cannot be fixed at all...!).
But whatever its cause, I definately don't think its a common thing to happen.
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Originally posted by mars01
Slap your scenario sounds like an induced flat spin. You were slow nose up. When you kicked the rudder, what did your nose do? Did you try to keep it up with further backpressure or let it drop?
If you tried to hold it up you are basically rotating the tail around the nose with yaw and at low speed this would initiate the flat spin, especially if your inertia is still moving in the opposite direction i.e. before you kicked the rudder.
One thing I have noticed while practicing aerobatic maneuvers in the TA, is consecutive snap rolls will put me into an uncontrollable flat spin in the F6F, LA7 and P47.
I also notice the blurb talks about stalls and not flat spins. Two very different animals.
Nope ... I was nose up going to the right ... I pushed stick forward and started to bring nose down and kicked rudder to bring it around to the right quicker all while pushing stick forward.
I was still over 200mph when the stall happened and when I was in this wicked spin I was nose down, cause all I could see was water.
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I doubt anyone's 'flat stalling'. In RL if that happens, u might as well get out walk down the wing and start jumping up and down.
The odds of recovery are about 99% against u. If it's even possible at all. a ballistic chute would help .:)
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Originally posted by airbumba
I doubt anyone's 'flat stalling'. In RL if that happens, u might as well get out walk down the wing and start jumping up and down.
The odds of recovery are about 99% against u. If it's even possible at all. a ballistic chute would help .:)
ive had one *almost* perfect (is that the right word? lol) flat spin in a P38.
ive also had some wierd moments in the Mossie too.
im not going to fly them now, not untill they get fixed, or HTC say its "normal"
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I used to get into flat spins on a pretty regular basis in the 110G2 in AH1. Serious flat spins, like in Topgun...
From the inside, you are going around in a circle, seems to alternate slightly nose high and then nose low. Absolutely nothing I could do to get out of it, I was chopping throttle, dropping flaps & gear, mashing the rudder and stick back & forth. None of it did a thing.. I'd fall pretty much straight down and go boom.
I used to be able to do it pretty much on demand, but I'd do it by accident while fighting.. get slow (like 100 mph), get the nose up, then try to use the rudder to kind of flop the nose over on someone for a snapshot. Well, the nose would flop over, but then it'd keep going and there wasn't anything I could do to get out of it.
It sounds similar to what is happening in the P-38, at least some of the stories so far.