Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Dago on January 04, 2001, 05:19:00 PM
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I am getting frustrated by these CV wussies who take command of a CV and won't take it on the attack. They spend all thier time circling the port, or running from a fight.
CV groups are instruments of war, made to attack!
No battle, no war is ever won by spending all your time running or on defense. You win fights and take bases by attacking!
Patton was quoted as saying "fixed fortifications are a monument to the stupidity of man". He understood that to win a battle or a war, you must attack.
Imagine if with the onset of WW2 after the Pearl Harbor attack the United States Navy had just had its carriers circle Pearl Harbor? The war would have ended up very differantly.
Its not strategic to be a sitting duck. If we learn anything in this game, it is you cannot stop a determined attack with defense. But, you can stop it by attacking the field it comes from.
What I am getting at with this rant, is this, if you dont have the guts to take the CV in harms way, please dont take command of it.
Dago
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if you're ranked higher than they are...kick them out (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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It's not as simple as pulling rank. A major problem is a faction of players who will capture an enemy fleet and "hide" it so the enemy can't find it and take it back. To me thats total roadkill. And I said as much so when online the other night. If I'd been on longer I would have taken the fleet and steered it into harms way. But, huh? Give me a break. Use the damn things. Or just keep your hands off them. If you think it's cool to hide them or are afraid to get the paint scratched in combat then you have no business playing with the toys in a "war" game.
My .02 anyway.
-Westy
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Ah!
I was *wondering* what the rational could be for not using them to attack....
Hiding them???
My god man.... that's rediculous.
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Believe it or not, the same people who think gangbanging a country to one field would LOVE to do this.
Random arena resets, the way to avoid keeping a side on the ground.
Mav
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If the fleet's port is in enemy hands, it might be worth being less agressive with the fleet. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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I agree, that if the CVs port is in enemy hands, it would be a good idea to excerise caution. But this isnt what I am talking about.
These big wussies are cowering with the CV under their control when thier country still owns the port.
Some of the most fun I have had in AH recently have revolved around cv -vs - cv fight. PTs all over the place, guns blazing, planes flying. It was great.
But lately it seems impossible to get a good fight going because the CV commander got scared, not having the stomach to fight.
Worst thing that can happen, the very worst, is you lose the CV. That just means you step up and take it back. It isnt impossible. What good is a CV group if you are afraid to put it into action??? Kinda like buying a new car and keeping it in the garage forever so it wont get dirty.
Worst of all this is that these guys who wont take the CV to the fight prevent the other players from enjoying the navy addition to the game.
Dago
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CV's never fought in sight of each other in RL. Combinin a flight sim and carriers, "realistically" played would resemble Midway.
Perhaps when more ships are added we can have some non carrier fleets (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/cool.gif)
AKskurj
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Saw a wonderful example of fleet mismanagement today. A single player who had control of both fleets and put them together. Since this player has a high rank no one could do anything about it. Both CV's in formation on one side of the map. No one who wanted to use a fleet activity on the rest of the map could do so. It left the HQ totally exposed.
There has to be some way of determining who will control the fleet as long as players can take them over. I understand HT using the idea of rank. Those who have much time to dedicate to playing get the perks, in this case the fleet. Why does one person have the ability to take BOTH fleets simultaneously?
HT can we limit this???
Mav
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Can't the squad leaders get together with the CV commander to plan for the use of the CV fleets?
grizzly
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Originally posted by Maverick:
Saw a wonderful example of fleet mismanagement today. A single player who had control of both fleets and put them together. Since this player has a high rank no one could do anything about it. Both CV's in formation on one side of the map. No one who wanted to use a fleet activity on the rest of the map could do so. It left the HQ totally exposed.
There has to be some way of determining who will control the fleet as long as players can take them over. I understand HT using the idea of rank. Those who have much time to dedicate to playing get the perks, in this case the fleet. Why does one person have the ability to take BOTH fleets simultaneously?
HT can we limit this???
Mav
Yes Mav13 how did I know you would run here and post your whine.I guess you are still mad at me because of my slapping you around endlessly in TA.
1.You were the only one whining that the CVs were grouped together. The TG was steaming north splitting 7 and 12 in support of a concerted effort to attack knight HQ which at least 15 AC were involved in. But you wouldn't know that because you were too bz crying on country channel
2. Nobody ask me to give up control of a CV. Plus I kept asking over country channel where they wanted the CVs to go.
3. The CVs where north of 18 three days steam from our HQ Duh!. I had just returned from a fighter sweep up @ 35 to regain our other Port and protect our HQ, where were you since you were so worried about our HQ?
4. I have 15 hours logged you have 8 hours. maybe learn to fly better and improve your rank. Not like you did in TA staying high and waiting for ppl to furball out then only to jump on the last AC standing when it had no E and was low, atta gurl.
[This message has been edited by Torque (edited 01-05-2001).]
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One more thing Mav13 kiss my (http://members.home.net/torqs/moon.gif)
[This message has been edited by Torque (edited 01-05-2001).]
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"CV"...."Wussies"...
Dang, another word I got to remember (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Saw
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Sometimes CV's have to be on the defensive. If you see enemy fleet is IB your port, you better keep yours near. If the enemy see your fleet near your port, he better get away... It's the same capped field respawning issue, only at a much larger scale. Have no sense at all attack a fleet protected port.
Having said that, CV's are a very powerful striking assets, and they have to be used (IMHO) accordingly. And 2 TG's working together are a hell of a threat.
OTOH, what I would restrict is a single player controlling more than a TG, except if nobody wants control.
Anyway, TG success depends basically on coordination, communication, and common sense designating targets. I try to communicate course changes, and announce targets when I command CV's. No problems so far. And naval warfare is being a LOT of fun.
All in all, I like a lot how CV control is implemented. It will never be possible to have the perfect management system, but OVERALL rank system:
- Increases playing time: good for Htc & good for us (more players online).
- Encourage flying all kind of mission: good for environment, as confronts pilots with all situations. Maybe next time somebody WILL actually go on a buff escort or a CAS mission, instead of just stay up in his perch.
Cheers,
Pepe
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He who fights and runs away,
Doesn't have to wait five hours whilst the damn CV chugs its way out of the port towards the enemy lines for five hours.
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What are you talking about guys?
CV are not landing craft! They are not supposed to bring the airplanes rignt into the enemy's small arms range. The planes are supposed to fly from CVs! You do not need to have enemy in visual range in order to fly. Especially with enemy having big guns himself (and probably coastal and field artillery later).
Also, CVs are not supposed to participate in ship to ship action. The game is called Aces High not Sailors Wet so use the CV as they were designed to be used - as a mobile airfields.
In fact, the whole idea of CV tactics in WWII consisted of hiding your CVs from the enemy while launching planes and seeking out the enemy's fleet. No mad dashes and boarding actions.
Combining two CVs into one group in AH seems to me a singularly dumb idea. With no limit on the number of planes that can be launched from one CV and the same limited number of players there is no tactical advantage to having them together in one spot and uncovering the other side of the map. Unless an idiot in charge just wants to see more ships on his screen! I would retract that idiot statement if someone shows me any reason to have two fleets together other then a pretty screenshot.
miko
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A couple of points:
First, I think there is some confusion about the topic. I think Dago was complaining about the CV's being so far away that they are not useful for launching aircraft from. Nobody said you should sail them right up to the enemy port so they CV can die to tanks. The bottom line for me is that the CV should be in a position where I can reasonably launch aircraft from it. I don't want it to be in the middle of the fight, more like a sector away so I can launch and grab before I attack. I think that's reasonable.
Second, there are two reasons I can think of that putting two CV's together might be a benefit. You increase the amount of AAA an enemy has to fly through to get your CV, and you double the number of heavy guns you have for bombardment. Now I think in many cases it would be better to use the other CV as a second mobile platform from which to press the enemy from a slightly different approach, if not on another front.
I think there is merit in only allowing a player to control one CV at a time. Share the wealth. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Not saying you could or should stop folks from running two CV's together, but generally it makes sense to me that more folks get a chance to run the ships. If you want a co-ordinated strike you just have to communicate with whoever is driving the other CV.
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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
"A pig is a jolly companion, Boar, sow, barrow, or gilt --
A pig is a pal, who'll boost your morale, Though mountains may topple and tilt.
When they've blackballed, bamboozled, and burned you, When they've turned on you, Tory and Whig,
Though you may be thrown over by Tabby and Rover, You'll never go wrong with a pig, a pig,
You'll never go wrong with a pig!" -- Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"
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miko,
Thks for your kind reply, if it was addressed to me. Thnks in the name of the adresse If it was not. Sure he/she will appreciate it on what it's worth.
Seeing it, I think my poor english does not allow me to explain myself properly.
When I say working toghether I do not mean visual range whatsoever. Working + Togheter implies only common strategic goals, and allow not only separate tasks but even separate tactics. I do not know where in my text (If your answer relates to my post) is visual range or having them on the same spot. I am sure you have some reasons beyond my limited intelligence not to consider this point but, sorry, they escape me.
Besides that, Task Groups (that's how they are deployed here) comprise not only CV's but also escorts. And there is a cruiser on each one with some 8" and some 5" that can meka a nice (but tricky) work in shore bombardment and fleet to fleet engagement. So if you put 2 in a spot, you double firepower...sorry to explain that to you, but being so dumb, I want to make sure I'm making the proper maths.
I don't know if this reason is good enough by your obviously higher and more clever than mine standards. Anyway, having taken a look to the mirror this morning, I have assumed my dayly idiocy quota, so your post do not offend me.
btw, my evident lack of perspicacy and inference ability made impossible the task of having a look at your gaming trajectory in current version. I tried miko, miko2d with no result. Can you please provide me with your handle so I can check, and give credit to your authorised opinion?. I did not look for past ones since navy was not implemented, and, as is it crystal clear you are not an idiot, it would be evident to you that its absence would nullify your entitlement to give any opinion about CV (in my idiocy I would start to call it TG) use & misuse in the MA.
Sure I am an Idiot, and that must be the reason I do not care about some virtual personna calling me that in my virtual face.
Feel free to correct me If I am wrong, I always appreciate intelligent, constructive criticism, as you evidently showed in your last post. And forgive me for this long post that you, from your superior point of view, will have forseen in all its points. I'm doubtless about this.
Cheers,
Pepe
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A famous quote applies here....
DAMN the torpedo's, full speed ahead!!
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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I can see taking a CV away from a fight IF you are being overwhelmed.
I think it's a great idea that you can take over command from someone because we have some dicks that will take the CV away from a fight just because it pisses people off.
I had to take command a couple of days ago because this guy was trying to move the fleet deep into our territory just so the gunners on the ship couldn't steal his kills.
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Yeah, I think Leph pointed out what is also my understanding of the complaint... Not that the CV is isn't charging directly at another fleet.... But that the CVs are being hidden well away from anything as to be unusable, for the sole purpose of denying another country any chance of regaining their fleet. This is just wrong.
About two fleets being used together... I saw the same thing on the weekend, and asked why this was being done. I was told that the fleet more than doubles in its power to over-run the enemy... and damn if they weren't right. As that fleet steamed up the map, we captured base after base after base... nearly invincible. Not a bad tactic at all, it turns out.
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i had one guy say i sucked at being cv captain cuz the cv wasn't withing 2 miles of the enemy base... he wanted it point blank.
i prefered to keep it a reasonable 10+ miles from the heavily defended enemy base combined with the fact that the cv was over 125 miles from its port. if it was kamakazi'd by the never ending wave of dweebs in chogs w 2k of bombs in a death dive the cv would be out of action a long time.
well he and some others kept whining so i got pissed (like I so often do (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) ) and gave up the helm to them to do as they pleased.
naturally the new cv captain drove the task group right up to the beach and was promptly blown to hell some 135 miles from the fight within minutes of reaching his "furball heaven".
had a good laugh over that one.
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Great, this is what I like, open discussion of tactics and asset utilization.
I think Lept grabbed the idea, that you need to take a fleet to a position where it can be used strategically. When you move it farther away from the enemy fields than 3 other of your fields, whats the point in having it?
Personally, I would be interested in seeing 2 fleets combined to study the effects it would have in terms of defendability, and attack power.
Either way, a hidden fleet or a fleet kept well out of effective range is just a waste. PT boats spawn at the cv, but if it is so far way, they are useless.
This is a game about virtual battles, about action and fun. To be in the game, you must be IN THE GAME. (or sim if you care about what I call it)
An old guy I used to work with often said "the good Lord hates a coward". Be a killer, not a coward. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Dago
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Late last night A-19 and P-21 were completely overwhelmed and capture of both was eminent. I steered TG-20 directly away from 19 and 21 in hopes of denying the Knights TG-20. I would have run it off the map if I could have. One or two determined guys can sink the CV, and capture it, and they did. (I have personally sunk 10 CVs this tour.) If we couldn't defend 19 and the port, then we weren't going to be able to defend the CV that close to the enemy either. I also had three people (who also recognized the situation for what it was) who personally requested that I pull it out of the area, before I took command of it.
Driving the CV is not as simple as: attack the nearest enemy base point blank, regardless of the odds.
Aggressive action with the CV often results in it being sunk, which can be a big, or small loss.
I have been aboard about 8 Cvs when they were sunk, and was never surprised. It takes a lot of foresight to predict when to pull the ships out, because they are so slow.
If the enemy holds a base near your port, and they do not have the upper hand numbers-wise and they are not attacking your port, then attacking that base point blank makes sense. You only have a short drive to lose if they sink it.
If you have a CV deep into enemy territory, and it is a long way from your port, then you have a lot to lose if it is sunk, it may be hours before it can be in range again.
Running two Cvs side by side is not always a bad option, if you lose one, CV ops are not shut down. If they do not turn at exactly the same time, aircraft can always take off and land. Defensive AA is also doubled, as well as cruiser guns.
I would not deny that anyone who is ranked higher than I has a lesser understanding of game strategy than myself. If you want control of the CV more often, increase your rank, it's as simple as that. Look at the scores of Citabria and Winqck, compare them to your own, and tell us why you should get command over them. Please do not respond to this comment without actually looking at their scores and #s.
eskimo
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If you have a CV deep into enemy territory, and it is a long way from your port, then you have a lot to lose if it is
sunk, it may be hours before it can be in range again.
And therein lies the Catch 22.
If you keep it away from the fight so it wont get sunk, you cant fight it. If you take it to the fight and it gets sunk, it takes a while before you can use it.
So, your options are:
1) Hide it or keep it away from danger, and then it is pretty useless
2) Take it to the battle area, fight it and enjoy it, risk having it sunk and not be able to use it again for a while.
My choice is 2). At least that way you have been able to use it for a while, enjoying the new element that has been added to AH. Better that than not being able to have fun with it for a while.
Dago
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Dago, there is a middle ground.
1. never drive up to the bank near other base or head into another cv group, thats just stupid.
2. dont head off to gilligans ile where everyone taking off needs drop tanks and rations, thats just annoying.
3. Keep the enemy at arms length, about 50 to 80k, out of range of guns but within reasonable distance of torp and dive bomb attacks.
4. Never come withing 20k of a group unless their H-cruiser is down.
5. 100-200 miles from enemy, figter cap not necessary, 90-50 miles from enemy fighter cap is adviseable, 40 on in YOU BETTER HAVE A FIGHTER CAP!
6. make sure at least 1 person is manning guns.
7. pt boats attack a base or carrier from farther than 40 miles away is dumb, ties up recources for too long, take a plane.
8. WATCH FOR HEAVY BOMBERS! and when you see them dont start trying to gun them down, first and formost get the fleet moving off its current course dont let it go straight while a a bomber is near.
9. Dont let the big cruiser get sunk, because the next cv ya see will come straight at you if they have any sense.
10. if you have your cruiser and other cv doesent, get withing about 20k and maintain that distance, put up heavy fighter cover and pummel away with the 8", dont get closer than 15k because then other cv can fire on you with carrier deck guns and they can mess you up quick if they get the range,
11. TEAMWORK! try as hard as you can to get everyone flying from you CV to work together, individualism gets CV's sunk faster than any bomb or torp.
I know i left some things out but them are pretty good guidelines.
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Torque,
I never mentioned your name nor did I intend to. I was criticizing the choice you made and continuing selfish actions on your part.
As for the vast majority of your post. Most everyone in this game can whip me in the arena, both MA and TA. So what? Heres a clue for you. This game is not my life. I have other things to do that include flying for real, not just as a wannabe video pilot.
Crow all you want about how bad you are in a game. I really don't care.
Your post pretty much summed up you attitude and maturity level. Your second post was a real winner. If I were to consider trying to kiss your ass, I wouldn't know where to start, that's all you are it seems IMO.
Mav
Now flame away for it means absolutely nothing.
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Originally posted by Maverick:
Torque,
Now flame away for it means absolutely nothing.
Mav take your own advice.
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NEVER get within 8k of an enemy base. If the fleet you are driving is in need of a turn to keep guns on the base, turn AWAY from it. CV is a real easy kill in a panzer, if u get within 8k of a panzer in the CV, especially a pz spawn point, you might as well start swimming.
AKskurj
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JESUS CHRIST!
your gonna find much love on this board!
happy cooking.
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Oh LOL they deleted his post!
hahha
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I agree Wobble post describes the stragegic/tactic-wise use of the fleet. However, I drove yesterday nite TG20 to A40 and made it turn around it at the closest possible distance. It was a dweebish movement, I know, but It was a helluva fun. And I think It was both to attackers and defenders. On the attackers side, I could not find a sigle open slot to man the guns for about one hour. On the defenders side, I could not track a single complain in text buffer (tho I have to admit my attention to that was very loose).
Most of all, I think it depends on the situation. If you are in trouble, and enemy is pushing, you better move your pawns wisely. But, sometimes, people just want to tangle & furball for a time.
btw, 5" AA is a blast!
Cheers,
Pepe
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even though i dont play in the main arena here are some of my ideas on task force manuevers..
1. Keep constant CAP around your task force.
2.Always keep an Alert 5 of a TBM and F6F/Chog ready for action.
3. Make sure your pilots carry external fuel when leaving the carrier..if they dont its just plain idiocy.
4.Mixing attack sorties of TBMs and fighters with Routine patrols in the area of where the enemy is "Supposed to be" will allow you to strike first.
5.launching your strike at a considerable range will save your bellybutton in the long run and that is what external fuel is for...duh?
as for using your task force as some kind of Picketts charge is ludicrous and its just wasting your time and resources. The carrier is your pride of the fleet not cannon fodder.
So i guess Im with the CV commander wussies on this...
but hey! i dont pay so my opinion doesnt count..
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aka Nefari...
Fighting in the air is not sport, it is scientific murder...
(http://www.geocities.com/whymanbuster420/stuka_ground_md_wht.gif)
[This message has been edited by Nefarious (edited 01-08-2001).]
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1. Keep constant CAP around your task force.
2.Always keep an Alert 5 of a TBM and F6F/Chog ready for action.
3. Make sure your pilots carry external fuel when leaving the carrier..if they dont its just plain idiocy.
4.Mixing attack sorties of TBMs and fighters with Routine patrols in the area of where the enemy is "Supposed to be" will allow you to strike first.
5.launching your strike at a considerable range will save your bellybutton in the long run and that is what external fuel is for.duh?
The CV commander just steers the boat, he has no control over the other players. You could not get anyone to just CAP a cv group, and there is no way to request some guys spend their game time just sitting around waiting for action. I appreciate your suggestions, and while these are/were valid real world tactics, they wont work in a game/sim where everyone wants instant action and gratification, me included. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Dago
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Dago's got it right. I'm a firm believer in Pattons theorem of war. ATTTTTTAAAAACK!!!or die.
LLB OUT!!!!!!!
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Originally posted by Nefarious:
even though i dont play in the main arena here are some of my ideas on task force manuevers..
1. Keep constant CAP around your task force.
2.Always keep an Alert 5 of a TBM and F6F/Chog ready for action.
3. Make sure your pilots carry external fuel when leaving the carrier..if they dont its just plain idiocy.
4.Mixing attack sorties of TBMs and fighters with Routine patrols in the area of where the enemy is "Supposed to be" will allow you to strike first.
5.launching your strike at a considerable range will save your bellybutton in the long run and that is what external fuel is for...duh?
as for using your task force as some kind of Picketts charge is ludicrous and its just wasting your time and resources. The carrier is your pride of the fleet not cannon fodder.
So i guess Im with the CV commander wussies on this...
but hey! i dont pay so my opinion doesnt count..
Heh Nefari, what happened to your signing up?
WHat you suggest above may suit real world TF tactics, but errrm LOL the MA is far from it. Often the fleet doesn't even get far from its home port therefore if it does die its not a huge loss, as another will respawn close by. Hard to really explain all the differences but signup man and come see (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
AKskurj