Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Hortlund on July 10, 2004, 03:18:10 PM
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Now, this may come across as very un-PC. Nevertheless it is my honest opinion and I have enough experience working with them, both while being a superior to one or more, and while being a subordinate to one or more, to be sure of my position.
It is a generalization naturally, but I have yet to meet someone to beat the generalization.
Well, time to stop stalling, here it is.
Women are not good leaders.
I have never worked for a woman that had genuine leadership qualities, I have worked for several who had leadership skills fully on par with South American dictators...or for that matter, leadership skills fully on par with a rabbit. I have worked in groups with women several times, and every time it ended with a disaster. Worst case was in a group of 13 women and 3 men. Within days the women had formed three different fractions that fought eachother viciously while at the same time doing everything to recruit us guys into their fraction.
My experience with regards to working with women is that if there are 1-2 on a group of 5-10 it works ok-ish...you just have to avoid certain topics. If there are more than 2, they will create two fractions where 2 will freeze out 1 for whatever reason. If there are more than 4 they will form two OR MORE fractions and they will spend the majority of their time fighting eachother.
It works better if there are clear hierarchies, like a secretary-boss situation. But as soon as there are fluid hierarchies, like two lawyer-coworkers the scheming bastards begin.
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Hortlund that statement is ignorant on so many levels..
And just for you to ponder..
(http://www.superacionhumana.com/thatcher.jpg)
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or for that matter, leadership skills fully on par with a rabbit.
while at the same time doing everything to recruit us guys into their fraction.
I wanna work where you work:D I'm an equal opportuniy womanizer:cool:
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Grun, have you worked with women alot?
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Yes, in school and work environments. Leadership skills are based on individual characteristics and learning and are not dependant on gender as much as you seem to think.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Yes, in school ...
Yeah...
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Yeah...
Selective quoting underlines the weakness of your arguments...
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Well, dont hold back then grun...what work environments?
McDonalds?
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Well, dont hold back then grun...what work environments?
McDonalds?
WTG on the personal attacks and ridiculing! You have started them even before you lost the argument... Its good that you save us both the time...
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Gentlemen, gentlemen, can we focus?
(http://www.maximonline.com/girls/victoria_pratt/gm_l1.jpg)
I'd follow her leadership and orders anytime!
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Well, lets hear it grun.
I have worked alot with women, in several different types of work-environments like sales, law, management, economics, support. I have seen them in stress-environments and in more relaxed office-environments. I have had them as superiors and subordinates
and I have not once had a good experience (professionally) with any one of them. Like I said in my post they have an eerie talent for scheming BS. And they have an uncanny ability to create conflicts around them in a way I have never seen guys do. Naturally I have met guys who were *******s too, but that was on a completely different level.
You tell me what your experience is now please. You brought it up. School and what? And what kind of work in school did you do? School projects?
Come on now, lets hear where you have gotten your insights on this topic.
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Ignorant statement. Best supervisor I ever had was a woman.
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you have a poor attitude, son.
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A lot of times, the person causing the problems is the last one to recognise that fact, Hortland.
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School projects of course. And diverse high tech software, marketing, consulting, busniess and strategy development work environments...
Plus my major placed a strong emphasis in leadership and it is also a personal intrest of mine. I have read widely on the subject and written and analyzed more on it than probably anybody you know.. I intereact reguralrly with CEO/VP/Director level exectuvies and discuss leadership and business topics with them.
But I dont care to get in a pissing contests about this, no matter what any of us says you seem to be stuck in your perception. Maybe your company can bring in a consultant to help you deal with this situation...
Also one of the job offers I'm considering now is directly from a woman entepreneur and CEO. She is a fantastic leader from everything I know of her and her compmany..
So there, whats the point of anything I just wrote? Did it open up your mind at all?
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Is lada female?
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Originally posted by Russian
Ignorant statement. Best supervisor I ever had was a woman.
But Nadezdas rulez :D
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Originally posted by Martlet
Is lada female?
no, but he knows atleast one hotchickybabe.
That makes him ok in my book
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
So there, whats the point of anything I just wrote? Did it open up your mind at all?
Not really. You have read alot, and you have talked to alot of ppl about leadership. To be honest I dont think you know what Im talking about.
Im not asking in an attempt to set you up and slam you down or something like that, its just that I have this vauge memory of you saying sometime that you just got out of highschool or something like that. With that as background I dont really know what kind of work you could have that would let you interact regularily with "CEO/VP/Director level exectuvies and discuss leadership and business topics with them"
(Unless you are referring to job interviews you have been on, but that would be really silly, so Im assuming you are referring to some job you have now)
As for the woman leader you are applying for a job to. There is a difference between looking in from the outside, and talking to someone, and work with them on a day-to-day basis. You know this ofcource because you have read alot about leadership, but Im gonna say it anyway, in any new group-dynamics situation you have a honeymoon period. What I am talking about is what happens after this honeymoon period. After that everyone falls into their group-roles (you know this of cource with your expertise in the subject) and it is during this period that my bad experience working with females comes from.
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Originally posted by Lizking
A lot of times, the person causing the problems is the last one to recognise that fact, Hortland.
Yes, you are quite correct in that. Often the person will not even acknowledge that there is a problem at all, let alone take any responsibility for it.
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Our parent company does 2 BILLION in sales every year. The CFO and the Director of Quality (my ultimate boss) are both women, and both brilliant and decisive. I think it is you Mr. Hortlund who lacks experience in this matter.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Our parent company does 2 BILLION in sales every year. The CFO and the Director of Quality (my ultimate boss) are both women, and both brilliant and decisive. I think it is you Mr. Hortlund who lacks experience in this matter.
Have you worked with them alot? Enough to personally know how they are in the leader-role?
Or are you referring to their ability to hold a high office, attend board meetings and afterwards act "brilliantly and decisively"?
Anyway, look at my post. I didnt say "all women are idiots and they cant hold any responsible positions at all". What I did say was
"My experience with regards to working with women is that if there are 1-2 on a group of 5-10 it works ok-ish"
Sounds to me like that might be a similar situation the rest of the board members might be in then...
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Wonderful selective reading again...
High School? WTF? I'm a college grad from a good school and worked during school and graduated top of my class.
And as to why I interact with CEO's its because I work with them and they find my insights useful. They are very busy and they dont have the time fool around.. For example I just recently developed a startup company marketing strategies guide for one CEO, in fact we might even use it for many new companies...
Why do you have this bizzare need to belittle me in this thread?
It's getting annoying....
Why should I bother with you when you are so offensive and clearly unwilling to accept contrary viewpoints?
So once again... I strongly feel that your conclusions are wrong and that women are fully capable of good leadership.
And again is there any point to anything I wrote, has it opened your mind one bit?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Hortlund that statement is ignorant on so many levels..
And just for you to ponder..
(http://www.superacionhumana.com/thatcher.jpg)
:aok
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I meant you, Hortland.
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maybe I'm the only one, but I agree with him. a fanatical adherence to procedures and guidelines, to the point of refusing to budge from them even when shown that the situation is not typical and sticking with the guidelines is actually counter-productive to the purpose they were intended for.. backstabbing, gossip, moodiness, people getting promotions, raises and special treatment because 'he tries so hard', 'they have a hard life'. being passed over for a raise because she doesn't "feel" like you are a team player (even if you are the most productive worker on the crew)
they expect all the privileges of men with out any of the responsibility. go off on rants, and in a fit of rage saying stuff that would get any man hit, name calling accusations, but call her a name and its time to buy a suit for your court date.
maybe it's not really a fair assessment of the whole gender though. maybe (at least in many of the trades that didn't traditionally have a lot of women) it just because the first one that comes along that shows any hint of not being completely clueless they make a Foreman. it really can turn you off of the whole idea of women bosses when every one I've seen has been in way over her head, and in the end, if she is able to get the job done, she does it buy someone on her crew getting fed up and just telling her what needs done (basically he does her job, she gets the pay. and since the company has finally found a woman Foreman who can get the job completed, she'll always be the boss on future projects)
I've worked with a couple women that where good workers , the exception rather than the rule though, the majority (60-70% estimate from those I've worked with over the last 15-20 years) flirt or pout in order to get men to do their heavy, dirty, or just plain distastefully work for them, that or just lay around on their bellybutton and threaten to sue if you fire them.
in 20 years I've never seen a woman fired from a construction job. if they can't do the work they get a job following the Foreman around writing things down or driving the truck for him. if their boss gets fed up and wants to fire them the company just moves them to another crew. then theres the other who find some guy who is very skilled and essential to the project, they end up dating him, knowing the company won't fire his GF for fear of him leaving with her.
I've even met a few that where OK in low-level management positions(were they were told exactly what needed to be done and all they had to do was manage the people). but none that I want making decisions that effect my safety. I wouldn't refuse to promote a woman on that basis alone, but I have yet to meet any that I've found suited for the higher rolls once I got to know them.
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If you think you can deal with a female the same as a man, I would only advise to never get married. don't treat them like your boss, the man, treat them like your boss, the woman.
If you have only been exposed to *******s that happened to be women, your exprience is limited.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Now, this may come across as very un-PC. Nevertheless it is my honest opinion and I have enough experience working with them, both while being a superior to one or more, and while being a subordinate to one or more, to be sure of my position.
It is a generalization naturally, but I have yet to meet someone to beat the generalization.
Well, time to stop stalling, here it is.
Women are not good leaders.
I have never worked for a woman that had genuine leadership qualities, I have worked for several who had leadership skills fully on par with South American dictators...or for that matter, leadership skills fully on par with a rabbit. I have worked in groups with women several times, and every time it ended with a disaster. Worst case was in a group of 13 women and 3 men. Within days the women had formed three different fractions that fought eachother viciously while at the same time doing everything to recruit us guys into their fraction.
My experience with regards to working with women is that if there are 1-2 on a group of 5-10 it works ok-ish...you just have to avoid certain topics. If there are more than 2, they will create two fractions where 2 will freeze out 1 for whatever reason. If there are more than 4 they will form two OR MORE fractions and they will spend the majority of their time fighting eachother.
It works better if there are clear hierarchies, like a secretary-boss situation. But as soon as there are fluid hierarchies, like two lawyer-coworkers the scheming bastards begin.
Hear, hear
look at the messes our military, police and other first reponders are in due to the forced hiring of women.
Please don't misunderstand there is nothing finer on earth than a woman, she must first however know, understand and submit to her place. Otherwise she is all but usless. we must first be men and we must know our place and what is expected of as men (sadly most of you haven't a clue what that means) in order to have a woman respond to you as woman should to a man.
Great post Hortlund.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Have you worked with them alot? Enough to personally know how they are in the leader-role?
Or are you referring to their ability to hold a high office, attend board meetings and afterwards act "brilliantly and decisively"?
Anyway, look at my post. I didnt say "all women are idiots and they cant hold any responsible positions at all". What I did say was
"My experience with regards to working with women is that if there are 1-2 on a group of 5-10 it works ok-ish"
Sounds to me like that might be a similar situation the rest of the board members might be in then...
Yes, I work with both almost daily. They both hold high offices because they worked their way up into them. Both were line workers, floor supervisors & managers within this company.
My top employees (3 I can think of) are all women. One came to me from a job supervising over 100 employees.
I can name many more who I have worked with and for over the years, but that is really the point here isn't it? You have about 20 years of life to experience before you can really make as valuable a generalization in this regard.
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Originally posted by storch
Please don't misunderstand there is nothing finer on earth than a woman, she must first however know, understand and submit to her place. Otherwise she is all but usless. we must first be men and we must know our place and what is expected of as men (sadly most of you haven't a clue what that means) in order to have a woman respond to you as woman should to a man.
Amazing. I remember hearing nearly the same thing from one of those silly Taliban spokesmen around the time of the war... I feel sorry for your wife or daughters if you are instructing them to "submit to her place."
Maybe you could explain exactly what that means to you...
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Originally posted by GScholz
Hortlund, Sweden's answer to Lazs! (only without the guns)
:rofl it's so true
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Amazing. I remember hearing nearly the same thing from one of those silly Taliban spokesmen around the time of the war... I feel sorry for your wife or daughters if you are instructing them to "submit to her place."
Maybe you could explain exactly what that means to you...
find one that is willing to try you out. take notes. report. go back for seconds. take more notes. report.
Don't worry about my wife or daughters. they are quite secure in their respective places and with their responsibilities as we all should be.
thank you for your concern.
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What does "submit to her place" mean to you?
You seem proud to broadcast your beliefs, why not share them in more detail?
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I would like to hear more.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
What does "submit to her place" mean to you?
You seem proud to broadcast your beliefs, why not share them in more detail?
sure does. as the man I'm the head of my house. I defend and provide for my family. My wife, as a good woman is submissive to me and my needs as much as I am to her and her needs.
when you get married, IF you are ever able to get married you may very well want to have a wife that understands the difference in the roles we must each play in life.
I'm in my 28th year of marriage to the same woman. very few people can make that claim. Our marriage is the result of a relationship that was first built upon mutual physical attraction and love. Then it was further built upon mutual respect, admiration and consideration. Part of that respect is that she knows her place and her role and I know mine. we have overcome many challenges together and I for my part have never once seriously considered abandoning my relationship with my wife. while I can't speak for her I'm fairly sure she feels the same or she wouldn't be here with me still.
This is what it is supposed to be. It was quite common not long ago. Sadly changing social values and moral relativism have impacted the institution of marriage for the worse.
I have many friends who are on their second or third marriages. I am so thankful that I don't have their problems of composite families and geographically as well emotionally distant children. I can categorically tell you that if they had taken the time early in the relationship and explained to their mates what they expected of them and of the relationship, many, many, many times and also taken the time to understand what was important to their mates they would all be together still. That takes much patience and work, figuring out each other's love language, especially when women may be quick to nag and complain but at least in my experience never really give you any easy clue as to what they really want or mean. You have to be perceptive while at the same time not allow her to totally take over and start to infringe upon what I consider are my prerogatives within the relationship. Otherwise you end up a henpecked whimp. given my personality that would have never happened, my ego won't permit that. it just would have been a divorce.
But people generally don't do that do we? We are all to wrapped up in it's "all about me" when actually we should be concerned with others. It's really all about others.
Here's a little life secret. If you want to have a friend, just one mind you. Be a friend first. I wanted to be my wife's best friend so I became that, her friend. What option do you think that left her? I applied the same principle with many people as I have made my way through life and you know what it has worked very well for me. That principle is universal.
You may read more about this principle in Matthew Chapter 5. apply it in all your relationships and see if it doesn't work.
Is that enough detail there young person?
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Originally posted by storch
sure does. as the man I'm the head of my house. I defend and provide for my family. My wife, as a good woman is submissive to me and my needs as much as I am to her and her needs.
when you get married, IF you are ever able to get married you may very well want to have a wife that understands the difference in the roles we must each play in life.
I'm in my 28th year of marriage to the same woman. very few people can make that claim. Our marriage is the result of a relationship that was first built upon mutual physical attraction and love. Then it was further built upon mutual respect, admiration and consideration. Part of that respect is that she knows her place and her role and I know mine. we have overcome many challenges together and I for my part have never once seriously considered abandoning my relationship with my wife. while I can't speak for her I'm fairly sure she feels the same or she wouldn't be here with me still.
This is what it is supposed to be. It was quite common not long ago. Sadly changing social values and moral relativism have impacted the institution of marriage for the worse.
I have many friends who are on their second or third marriages. I am so thankful that I don't have their problems of composite families and geographically as well emotionally distant children. I can categorically tell you that if they had taken the time early in the relationship and explained to their mates what they expected of them and of the relationship, many, many, many times and also taken the time to understand what was important to their mates they would all be together still. That takes much patience and work, figuring out each other's love language, especially when women may be quick to nag and complain but at least in my experience never really give you any easy clue as to what they really want or mean. You have to be perceptive while at the same time not allow her to totally take over and start to infringe upon what I consider are my prerogatives within the relationship. Otherwise you end up a henpecked whimp. given my personality that would have never happened, my ego won't permit that. it just would have been a divorce.
But people generally don't do that do we? We are all to wrapped up in it's "all about me" when actually we should be concerned with others. It's really all about others.
Here's a little life secret. If you want to have a friend, just one mind you. Be a friend first. I wanted to be my wife's best friend so I became that, her friend. What option do you think that left her? I applied the same principle with many people as I have made my way through life and you know what it has worked very well for me. That principle is universal.
You may read more about this principle in Matthew Chapter 5. apply it in all your relationships and see if it doesn't work.
Is that enough detail there young person?
So... she's really the one who runs things, right? :D
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Where are my hipboots?
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Originally posted by Lizking
I meant you, Hortland.
LOL worked with me have you?
I was assuming that you made a general observation...my misstake.
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Women are very good leaders. But I dont live in Sweden...
Five women work for me, and the determination and leadership of two of them is admirable, the other 3 doesnt need these skills for their functions.
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What has happened Hortlund? Did you grope your boss and get upset when she didnt like it?
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(http://startrekpics.cc/janeway.jpg)
She kicked the borg collective's bellybutton (which, now that I think of it, were also lead by a woman, go figure!) :D
Daniel
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Well, lets hear it grun.
I have worked alot with women, in several different types of work-environments like sales, law, management, economics, support. I have seen them in stress-environments and in more relaxed office-environments. I have had them as superiors and subordinates
and I have not once had a good experience (professionally) with any one of them. Like I said in my post they have an eerie talent for scheming BS. And they have an uncanny ability to create conflicts around them in a way I have never seen guys do. Naturally I have met guys who were *******s too, but that was on a completely different level.
You tell me what your experience is now please. You brought it up. School and what? And what kind of work in school did you do? School projects?
Come on now, lets hear where you have gotten your insights on this topic.
Ever think that maybe, just maybe it's you that's the problem rather than ALL those women you've worked with?
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Originally posted by _Schadenfreude_
Ever think that maybe, just maybe it's you that's the problem rather than ALL those women you've worked with?
Yep. I wonder what kind of marriage will he have or is having :D
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Originally posted by _Schadenfreude_
Ever think that maybe, just maybe it's you that's the problem rather than ALL those women you've worked with?
Yeah, I lay awake at night thinking that the female inability to work in groups is somehow my fault.
For example, that work I was talking about where there were 13 females and 3 guys and the ladies immideately started forming fractions who spent 95% of their time scheming against eachother...clearly my fault.
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Originally posted by Tumor
So... she's really the one who runs things, right? :D
I don't step into the kitchen alot and am a firm believer in the adage that "if mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy". Yessir she has her way. But she has it sweetly, with feminine charm.
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I agree with hortlund in only one thing: In groups of women, things, in my experience, do always tend to end up bogged down in one massive chat-o-thon where they try to verbally convince every individual of the group on their point of view or ideas.... factions form up, endless debate until finally the factions have absorbed each other and only 2 big groups are left.. more endless chat chat chat and things start to get ugly and uglier until finally the head of one group caves in.
In comparison, whenever a team of men (or who in the great majority are men) are given a task, a leader is decided on almost instantly and the whole group follows lead..for better or worse.
The results however, are usually the same for both groups of men and women (though i'll admit women groups usually do a more detailed job.. but men groups usually finish a lot faster and achieving the main goal).
As far as PERSONAL leadership, i'd say its equal. Ive met both men and women who are excellent leaders and some who are horrible leaders.
Personally, i prefer to work with a GOOD woman leader than with a GOOD man leader... maybe its just me and working in big corporations as a lowly employee but of the 5 bosses ive had in the past years only the 2 woman bosses have treated me like a person instead of a number. And im talking about bosses whom you never talk to or even see unless you really screw up or have a serious issue to bring up with high management.
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lol retrovertigo2.......where did you come from :D
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Originally posted by storch
I don't step into the kitchen alot and am a firm believer in the adage that "if mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy". Yessir she has her way. But she has it sweetly, with feminine charm.
Yeppers...
" But she has it sweetly, with feminine charm"
I'm still thinking how the hell do they do it. Just few words with certain tone and all you can say is "Yes dear"....
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He cannot mean me, my name isnt Björn...
Anyway, new member, first post in this thread to insult me...just another troll.
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Originally posted by Staga
Yep. I wonder what kind of marriage will he have or is having :D
likely a good one. the ones where people go in with this fairy tail idea of man and wife being equal partners with equal say in all issues are, for the most part, doomed.
the ones where only 1 person holds these beliefs are also doomed, unless that one can be educated before it's over.
women should know their place. men should also know their place. and from what I've seen the second one is actually the more common problem these days.
you see a lot of men who have a very good idea of what their wife should be doing, but seem to put little effort into fulfilling their own responsibilities.
a few people in this thread have asked what 'a womens place' means. next month my wife and I will have been married 20 years, and the people I know who have been married as long or longer have a similar relationship. heres what it means and how it works for us.
I'm responsible for the overall welfare of the family. she has areas that I don't interfere with except in extreme cases. she knows I trust her and leave those areas to her. so if I do step in to an area that is traditionally hers she knows it must be important and I have final say. If I interfere in an area that is hers and screw it up I will live to regret it.
I figure out where the money will come from.
I set the total amount of the household budget, but she handles the details of how much goes where and when.
I am responsible for all conflicts and disputes involving people outside our family.
my wife generally handles all conflicts within the family, if anyone doesn't respect her handling of these issues, I handle that.
we don't argue in public or in front of the children. If I make a decision or statement she doesn't agree with, she will defend it as if she did until we have time to discus it in private. what ever we decide at that time will be the opinion presented by both of us. the revers is also true, I back up any decisions she makes 100% until we have a chance to discus it. If we absolutely can not agree, my decision stands.
on the surface it may seem very one sided or heavy handed, and many people take this view and warp it into something that is.
what you don't see and what can't really be expressed in writing (at least not by me) is the absolute love and respect I have for my wife (stronger even than my love for my children). with this as a foundation and the above explanation as the structure it makes for a very strong relationship. since we both put each others welfare above our own, and our family as a whole above that, there is actually very little conflict.
yes I do have final say on every issue, but her having to submit to my decision that she is completely opposed to doesn't come up often (maybe a dozen times in the last 20 years), and in each case so far, she has trusted me to make these decisions in spite of her own judgment and our family has profited from them. it's true that I could have been wrong, and she had the better idea, but I'm the one responsible for the outcome and sometimes someone just needs to make a call, when that time comes it's my call to make.
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seems all woman in sweden are really blond ??
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Originally posted by Retrovertigo2
Joho, det heter du visst!
//Retro
Nope, sorry. You must have me confused with someone else.
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Jaha...
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Originally posted by capt. apathy
likely a good one. the ones where people go in with this fairy tail idea of man and wife being equal partners with equal say in all issues are, for the most part, doomed.
the ones where only 1 person holds these beliefs are also doomed, unless that one can be educated before it's over.
women should know their place. men should also know their place. and from what I've seen the second one is actually the more common problem these days.
you see a lot of men who have a very good idea of what their wife should be doing, but seem to put little effort into fulfilling their own responsibilities.
a few people in this thread have asked what 'a womens place' means. next month my wife and I will have been married 20 years, and the people I know who have been married as long or longer have a similar relationship. heres what it means and how it works for us.
I'm responsible for the overall welfare of the family. she has areas that I don't interfere with except in extreme cases. she knows I trust her and leave those areas to her. so if I do step in to an area that is traditionally hers she knows it must be important and I have final say. If I interfere in an area that is hers and screw it up I will live to regret it.
I figure out where the money will come from.
I set the total amount of the household budget, but she handles the details of how much goes where and when.
I am responsible for all conflicts and disputes involving people outside our family.
my wife generally handles all conflicts within the family, if anyone doesn't respect her handling of these issues, I handle that.
we don't argue in public or in front of the children. If I make a decision or statement she doesn't agree with, she will defend it as if she did until we have time to discus it in private. what ever we decide at that time will be the opinion presented by both of us. the revers is also true, I back up any decisions she makes 100% until we have a chance to discus it. If we absolutely can not agree, my decision stands.
on the surface it may seem very one sided or heavy handed, and many people take this view and warp it into something that is.
what you don't see and what can't really be expressed in writing (at least not by me) is the absolute love and respect I have for my wife (stronger even than my love for my children). with this as a foundation and the above explanation as the structure it makes for a very strong relationship. since we both put each others welfare above our own, and our family as a whole above that, there is actually very little conflict.
yes I do have final say on every issue, but her having to submit to my decision that she is completely opposed to doesn't come up often (maybe a dozen times in the last 20 years), and in each case so far, she has trusted me to make these decisions in spite of her own judgment and our family has profited from them. it's true that I could have been wrong, and she had the better idea, but I'm the one responsible for the outcome and sometimes someone just needs to make a call, when that time comes it's my call to make.
Very well said, sounds like our household.
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omg.....2 hortlunds??? I thought one was plenty :D
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Horlund said:
It is a generalization naturally, but I have yet to meet someone to beat the generalization.
Well, perhaps you just havn't met the right woman, Hort?
In the workplace, I've come across many women (in law, which I think is your field) who excel many men. It's a profession which really has very little to do with gender. Sure, some of them have a chip on their shoulders and are 'ball breakers' but others are great team players. I find it's more to do with personality than gender.
Maybe it's your preconceptions which is the problem?
Ravs
Storch:
I'm married to a woman who earns twice as much as me (and I'm on the higher end of the national scale), she's out in Athens kicking arse to make sure that the Olympics delivers (a very difficult job, believe me). If people have a problem with her in the workplace, well tough s**t, she gets results.
Together we are fine, she insists on doing all the 'woman's' stuff around the house, like the cooking etc, when she's at home - unless she's too tired, in which case, I'll cook, clean or whatever. It's pretty fluid, and it works for us.
Storch's relationship, in which he requires a submissive woman (slave?) may work for him, but I don't think it's the panacea of modern relationships as he prescribes. Different people have different equations. I've had girlfriends in the past who expected me to do all the thinking and providing and frankly, I found it boring...but that's just me.
Ravs
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Originally posted by ravells
Horlund said:
It is a generalization naturally, but I have yet to meet someone to beat the generalization.
Well, perhaps you just havn't met the right woman, Hort?
In the workplace, I've come across many women (in law, which I think is your field) who excel many men. It's a profession which really has very little to do with gender. Sure, some of them have a chip on their shoulders and are 'ball breakers' but others are great team players. I find it's more to do with personality than gender.
Maybe it's your preconceptions which is the problem?
Ravs
Storch:
I'm married to a woman who earns twice as much as me (and I'm on the higher end of the national scale), she's out in Athens kicking arse to make sure that the Olympics delivers (a very difficult job, believe me). If people have a problem with her in the workplace, well tough s**t, she gets results.
Together we are fine, she insists on doing all the 'woman's' stuff around the house, like the cooking etc, when she's at home - unless she's too tired, in which case, I'll cook, clean or whatever. It's pretty fluid, and it works for us.
Storch's relationship, in which he requires a submissive woman (slave?) may work for him, but I don't think it's the panacea of modern relationships as he prescribes. Different people have different equations. I've had girlfriends in the past who expected me to do all the thinking and providing and frankly, I found it boring...but that's just me.
Ravs
Wow!!! a slave??? submission works both ways. actually Capt. apathy described our relationship almost perfectly when he described his own. No one way street ever works in anything let alone a long term relationship. actually we serve each other and both of us our children. And the family together serves the community in many ways. The concept shouldn't be too difficult to grasp even for someone from self centered europe.
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Hmmm... I think leaders are born not made. I expect that the ratio between leaders and non-leaders in women is probably the same as men.
That said... Women in groups are something else. Regardless of their education/training level, they seem to cat-fight. Or at least, that's what my wife says. She would much rather work with a group of men than a group of women. It's much more relaxed with men.
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Originally posted by Sandman
Hmmm... I think leaders are born not made.
Thats not really true, leadership can be learned. Here is a very good book all of you should read to improve your leadership skills. It's written by the dean of my Business School and is one of the best leadership books around. This work is based on decades of real life leadership research by the co-authors.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0787968331/qid=1089602821/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/102-2376998-3490510?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
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I'm telling Mom!
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Thats not really true, leadership can be learned. Here is a very good book all of you should read to improve your leadership skills.
Having been in the military, I've had a considerable amount of training on leadership.
I've met people that wore it like a second skin. I've also met people that couldn't lead their way out of a paperbag.
I'll agree that training can make you a more effective leader, though.
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I've met people that wore it like a second skin. I've also met people that couldn't lead their way out of a paperbag.
Do you attribute that to birth?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Do you attribute that to birth?
Birth or the way they were brought up. They didn't get it out of a book or a training session at work.
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And what exactly is "the way they were brought up?" Thats simply learning.
And the whole point of books or training is to help people gain new learning they may not have been exposed to before.
You cant simply say leaders are born when you also include their life experiences and life learning as sources of leadership skills..
If leadership can be learned then leadership can be taught.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
And what exactly is "the way they were brought up?" Thats simply learning.
Nothing simple about it. If it were, there wouldn't be so many parenting books. ;)
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
If leadership can be learned then leadership can be taught.
Believe what you will. I've never seen this happen to an adult.
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Originally posted by Sandman
Nothing simple about it. If it were, there wouldn't be so many parenting books. ;)
:) Good joke.
But then are you saying that leadership is hereditary if it takes specially born "leadership" parents to first sire a good leader and then give him/her the proper bringing up?
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Originally posted by Sandman
Having been in the military, I've had a considerable amount of training on leadership.
I've met people that wore it like a second skin. I've also met people that couldn't lead their way out of a paperbag.
I'll agree that training can make you a more effective leader, though.
The army must disagree Sandman.. And apparently you do too.
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I'll repeat... "Birth or the way they were brought up."
By the time you're adult, I think it's too late.
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What do you consider the qualities that born leaders are born with?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
The army must disagree Sandman.. And apparently you do too.
The U.S. military wants everyone to grow as leaders. If you don't, they'll process you out.
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Grow as leaders? You mean learn new leadership skills?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Grow as leaders? You mean learn new leadership skills?
No... take on more authority and responsibility.
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So you have never seen an adult either gain new leadership skills or take on additinal responsibilities after training?
That seems bizzare..
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
So you have never seen an adult either gain new leadership skills or take on additinal responsibilities after training?
That seems bizzare..
Bizzare, because I never said that.
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If leadership can be learned then leadership can be taught.
Originally posted by Sandman
Believe what you will. I've never seen this happen to an adult.
So you have never seen an adult acquire new leadership skills through teaching or training or learning?
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Sandman shame on you... you are scaring the boy.
He's fresh out of 4 years taking "management" courses and the fact that his "Think and Grow Rich" education aint gonna lend him a whiff of leadership ability is frightening him.
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Nice personal attack Nash... I hope it made you feel better.
But you dont know me outside of this board so you really have no basis for such coments... I can just say that people who do know me and do work with me would disagree whole heartedly..
Carry on...
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They think you display leadership qualities?
Yeah, I could kinda see.... er no wait I don't buy it.
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Originally posted by Nash
They think you display leadership abilities?
Yes..
Do you seriously think you have any clue as to who I am based on the way I post here, on a computer game message board?
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Originally posted by capt. apathy
likely a good one. the ones where people go in with this fairy tail idea of man and wife being equal partners with equal say in all issues are, for the most part, doomed.
Oh really?
yes I do have final say on every issue
I'm suprised your relationship has lasted.
Amazing in the 21st century there are still some men who cannot come to grips with their own insecurities. It's pathetic.
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So Sandman you have never seen an adult acquire new
leadership skills through teaching or training or learning?
Or better yet, maybe you could explain what you ment here?
I've never seen this happen to an adult.
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From what I know of leadership training.... It takes a core leadership type and refines its expression.
It doesn't take the expression or will of leadership and instill that core.
or something, shreck, I dunno....
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Been away for a minute. So what did ya'll decide? Hortlund is nuts right?
OK, not nuts, just silly.
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Hortlund is silly like Al Gore or Howard Cosell is silly.
"Nuts" hints at it, at least...
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Been away for a minute. So what did ya'll decide? Hortlund is nuts right?
OK, not nuts, just silly.
Im more concerned with what storch said... Amazingly Taliban...
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Who taught these cavemen to write???
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Originally posted by Sandman
Hmmm... I think leaders are born not made. I expect that the ratio between leaders and non-leaders in women is probably the same as men.
That said... Women in groups are something else. Regardless of their education/training level, they seem to cat-fight. Or at least, that's what my wife says. She would much rather work with a group of men than a group of women. It's much more relaxed with men.
very true
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Im more concerned with what storch said... Amazingly Taliban...
well maybe you'll still be posting in a few years and you can tell us about your multiple divorces.
right MT?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Or better yet, maybe you could explain what you ment here?
I've never seen anyone become a leader because of training.
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Originally posted by storch
well maybe you'll still be posting in a few years and you can tell us about your multiple divorces.
right MT?
In what line of work is your wife?
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Originally posted by Sandman
I've never seen anyone become a leader because of training.
While I agree with principle, I'd say leadership as a quality is same as most arts:
You have to be born with some genious within you to reach the heights of your profession. If you're average, you can study your bellybutton off and prop yourself up to a "darn good" level, however, you'll never be a "natural".
It goes for most things in live, really.
Most are average leaders, best ones are easy to spot. Funny thing is, you'll rarely see them on top.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
In what line of work is your wife?
prior to our first pregnancy in 1980 she was involved in commercial real estate. after the birth of our daughter in 1981 she decided to be a full time mom. It was very difficult for me to pull the economic wagon alone so in 1986 we started an Amway business which we could run from home. We were very successful in that venue and were soon earning as much as I was at work in about ten hours per week. When that business transitioned to an internet format it really took off. Today that outfit is called Quixtar. This change took the business focus from me having to stand before audiences and deliver a "pitch" and turned into a convenience thing for the end user. She now runs it alone. The income she generates has allowed us to build a really nice and profitable welding shop. But basically she is doing what she has chosen to do, stay home and be a wife first then a mother and I love her all the more for it! Even though at first I wasn't really keen on the idea.
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Just an interjection in this little debate, but I have worked for both men and women, and have had the same insecurities displayed by both. I have worked for and respected both, and have worked for and have had resentment for both. I do have to admit that the best (most effective) women that I have worked for seemed to be shackled by the fact that they were women. The majority of their time was spent proving that they were capable of doing their job. But their ability to lead and to manage was not arguable, and they were missed when they were let go.
As far as the long-term relationship goes, I think that Storch is right(God help me), and that the male figure of the relationship needs to be in charge. I have seen quite a few couples that have been together for more than five decades, ranging up to eighty years plus, and I think that the roles of the sexes are important to achieve this.
I'm not sexist by any means, and I respect any and every women that deserves it. The key is for both parties to repect each other and live their lives based on that respect.
flame away :D
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Storch, I truly believe you should move to Stepford :D
Daniel
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Ineffective woman leaders and managers are common. But no more common then males.
My experiance is that woman can make very effective leaders, when they err it might be typically a different kind of error then a male leader, but no more or less indicative of good leadership.
I have known woman that were intelligent, decisive, great comunicators and very hard workers. They had earned the trust of a vast majortity of thier employees and fought well and hard to improve thier orginisations and thier careers.
I have known woman that were back stabing, trouble making, boob hugging, incompetent waste of rations.
When quotas get into play all bets are off. Militant dyke quota girls that hire their like are a blemmish. As are over aggressive, car salesman talking, brown noseing, golf playing(usually cheating), "one of the guys" leaders that have been the blight for so long.
Grunhurtz, leadership cannot be taught except by the example of good leadership in an orginisation that recognises good leadership. Hand someone all the books and lectures you like. If they go into an enviroment where back stabers and brown nosers get ahead..they will either become that or fail.
go ahead and take your MBA or what every you have out to the work place and preach "leadership" training. Unless your a leadership sales man all the buzz words in the world wont help your carreer. While you are busy implementing your 15 step plans and buying everone inpirational posters. The guy that the boss likes the look of and that tells him what he wants to hear will get the promotion. You will adapt to that or you will not progress. In managment, progression is success.Delivery can be very very second place.
Everyone has had the same courses(maybe not from so illustirios a teacher) everyone has seen what really happens in management of orginisations. Male leaders are vulnerable to thier porn and football minds, female leaders are vulerable to thier figure skating and soap opra minds, both can be good leaders.
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Ohhh boy. Okay, I've been reading this thread on and off for the last couple of days and finally decided that you all need a new opinion that isn't from the 50s. Let me say some of this is off topic, but I think you'll understand why I included it.
I am 25 years old, been married 2 years as of last week, but we've been dating off and on for 6 years. As I read these posts I'm reminded a lot of my parent's marriage, then I realize that most of you are speaking of marriages 25-30 years stong. My parents have been married 32, so you all are about the same generation. Let me back track a bit here so you can understand where I'm coming from (sorry, lengthy family history).
My grandmother and grandfather (mom's side) married late in life, she was 28, he was 43. They got married WWII era. Now that's pretty old for a female back then, and you might wonder what she was doing before that. Well, she graduated high school at 15 with full honors, graduated college at 19 with a maths degree (made the math honor society at *17* and got a 100 in a calculus course only her instructor told her it 'didn't look good for a girl to get this' so he gave her a 99) and was teaching 18 year old boys high school math at 19 (she was 5'1" and 98lbs, if you want a funny visual image). Durning WWII she worked with engineers on the first radar system, taking the engineering terms on how to use it and do maintence on it and teaching the men who were going out into the field in layman's terms. My grandfather was a mechanical engineer and they met and got married.
Now I heard this story growing up and thought what a great, strong female role model my grandmother was. She was one of the most intelligent women I have ever known and influenced who I am a great deal. However, I tend to skip over her history after she got married. Although she worked a bit here and there, she dropped right into the role a lot of you seem to talk about: she cooked, cleaned, sewed, raised the kids, did charity work, and a load of other domestic stuff. Now don't kid yourself, I learned that side too, but by the time I was little my grandfather was dead and I got the good domestic education without seeing the submissive side of it, as least from her.
But here's the legacy of my grandparents that bothered me even more. After they got married they had three children, first a boy, then my mom, then another boy. My mom tells me stories sometimes about her childhood and one of them went something like this: my grandfather would take the boys out fishing. My mom wanted to go but was told that she had to stay at home and help my grandmother in the garden. When the boys returned from an afternoon out on the cool ocean, my mom was all sweaty and dirty from weeding in the hot sun. The boys handed her the fish they had caught, went into the living room to read comic books and left her to clean and cook the fish for dinner. But, it didn't stop there with the domestic roles, there were financial repercussions too. My grandfather and two other men started an engineering company after WWII that has since gone international. When my grandfather passed away the stocks were held by the families of these three men and were quite valuable. When my grandfather's will was read, my mother found out that she had some regular shares in the company while her brothers got valuable voting shares worth 3 times as much as her own...
My mother is also one very smart lady with an IQ in the 160s, but growing up with this legacy of submissive women in turn affected her own marriage and relationships. She and my dad have a 'comfortable' relationship now and my dad is one of the sweetest, most gentle and giving men I know, but if he complains about what's on the table for dinner, you better believe my mom will get up and make him something different. She's always been the housewife doing the exact same role my grandmother did. It worked for them, so great, but it's also been detrimental.
My grandmother now has alzhimers or however you spell it. She gets 24 hour care in her home because she was adament about not being put into a nursing home. My mom was the child that set up the nurses and caregivers, my mom has been the one for years that continues to go to her house once a week and do stuff (my dad has always done the maintence of the property in his spare time) she's the one that fills in cleaning, feeding, dressing, and caring for her mother *without getting paid* when the nurses can't be there. When her brothers call, they never ask how their mother is, never ask if the bills are getting paid or if there's enough money. They say 'we're coming up for 2 weeks and staying at the property'. I should mention my grandparent's house is on the ocean in maine. When my mom made it clear that having extra people in the house confused my grandmother and sent her into a tizzy they said 'no problem, we'll stay with you' without even asking.
Now, if you saw all of this from the outside, would you agree with me that the submissive role isn't a good one for women to learn? My uncles have no respect for what my mom is going through (a difficult situation even if my grandmother WAS in a nursing home) and don't care about how much time she spends down there keeping the household running. All they want is to be able to come up whenever they want to and make sure they get their inheritance. All my grandmother is to them now is something that's blocking their way to money. Now you may think that's not repercussions of the submissivness, but I know quite well it is.
But getting back to what I personally think of all this. I got very lucky. My parents, with these specific roles, had two daughters. There was never any problem growing up with treating one child different from the other because we were both girls. And it's funny, my sister learned all the sports and woodworking stuff (she's a fine furniture maker now) and I learned all the domestic stuff. But that was just the way we wanted it. But we saw how my mom got treated by her brothers, we saw the aftermath of what our grandmother had done and we said 'this is rediculous!'. In my marriage (and Mj can back me up when he gets home from base) we are equal partners in everything. Now right now it's difficult because i'm not working full time (but singers never work full time) and he's working 12 hour days in Air Force pilot training. So of course I do more of the household stuff, bill paying, cooking, etc. But if we were both working full time jobs, I'd expect him to do an equal share of the domestic stuff as well. When we make decisions we make them together, not he makes it and I agree. That's just rediculous! Women can be just as smart and sensible as men are. I'm a good example of that. I'm smart and practical and I don't fit the stereotype of spending tons of money on clothes and purses and shoes. If I don't agree with something he's said, you better darn well believe I'll correct him or at least discuss it with him. That's just the way a good partnership should work. If your spouse is saying something that's totally incorrect, you should mention it in a non-threatening way so they don't look like a total idiot.
And before I have to run, let me add to the original debate. Of the women in my family, ALL of us have worked on committees at some point and NEVER have we broken up into subgroups or personally attacked someone or sat there and talked about something different for hours while everyone else was doing business. We just don't function like that and I'm will to bet that there are a lot of mature women out there that don't either. I'm a great person to work with in a group because I stay focused and I don't make it personal.
Sorry this got so long, but sometimes I think it's valuable for you all to realize that there are some women around here :)
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there is a perfect example of someone warping a good system into something it wasn't meant to be.
as I said in my other post, many people do this. sadly it is especially common in people who hide it behind religion. I know many men who can quote word for word what the Bible says about a wifes duties but can't seem to remember any of the verses relating to the mans responsibility.
theres a difference between taking a submissive role and being a slave. and a difference between taking responsibility for another persons welfare and owning a servant.
from your description it sounds like your grandfather lost sight of the difference.
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Nah, my grandfather didn't loose sight of the difference. By all accounts he was a kind man (as I said before sadly I never got to knew him), but he was significantly older when the kids were born and was a bit distant as a father, didn't know how to relate to little girls so he focused on what he DID know and understand. Perhaps back then that type of behavior was normal and expected and it would have seemed odd if he had included her in all of the boy's activities. I honestly don't know, my mom doesn't like to talk about it much because of the on-going problems with my grandmother.
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I work with women a lot.
I exclusively hire women, have done so since last year, when I finally gave up on the men which in frequent numbers have Hortlunds attitude. Yeppers, the worst workers I had were actually the "I AM MACHO AND WOMEN SUCK" type of men.
I rather not hire Swedes, be it male or female, hence the brilliant line from Scholzie:
"I think it's more that SWEDES are not good leaders. "
Right now, I have one fine team of ladies taking (if needed) perfect care of my whole business.
Tonight, I shall show them this thread.
Poor Hortlund....
P.S. Which are worse, women or Russians?
And BTW, yes, Maggie Thatcher is a woman just in case someone did not recognize her picture
:D
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Originally posted by storch
prior to our first pregnancy in 1980 she was involved in commercial real estate. after the birth of our daughter in 1981 she decided to be a full time mom. It was very difficult for me to pull the economic wagon alone so in 1986 we started an Amway business which we could run from home. We were very successful in that venue and were soon earning as much as I was at work in about ten hours per week. When that business transitioned to an internet format it really took off. Today that outfit is called Quixtar. This change took the business focus from me having to stand before audiences and deliver a "pitch" and turned into a convenience thing for the end user. She now runs it alone. The income she generates has allowed us to build a really nice and profitable welding shop. But basically she is doing what she has chosen to do, stay home and be a wife first then a mother and I love her all the more for it! Even though at first I wasn't really keen on the idea.
Is this the Quixtar you are talking about Storch? Sounds like a pyramid type enterprise to me.
"Quixtar Average Income
There's apparently some confusion about the Quixtar business opportunity and I'd like to make three points that will hopefully eliminate some of that confusion. Those promoting Quixtar claim that, when run properly, a Quixtar IBO can achieve "financial freedom" and do so in just a few years. Critics of Quixtar contend that such claims are bogus and that most IBOs end up losing money operating their Quixtar business. Who's right? Who's wrong? Does the truth reside somewhere in the middle? I'll list my points and let you decide.
Point One: Average Income
According to Quixtar's own "disclosure document" (pdf) the average monthly gross income for an "active" IBO is $115 (or $1,380 annually). Just a reminder, gross income means before expenses such as travel, lodging, training, motivational materials, etc. Quixtar even admits that "there may be significant business expenses, mostly discretionary, that may be greater in relation to income in the first years of operation." How many years? Quixtar doesn't specify. Could be two or twenty for all we know.
"But wait," you say. "Averages can be easily skewed by extremely high or low numbers. Many IBOs sign up and then sit on their bellybutton which inevitably brings down the average income."
Well, that's correct. Averages can be distorted by extremely high or low numbers but maybe that's why Quixtar only counted "ACTIVE" IBOs. In fact, Quixtar did not include one third of all its registered IBOs when determining average income. That statistic alone is incredible but let's put it in perspective. Let's say there are 300,000 registered IBOs. According to Quixtar, 100,000 of them are not "active" and weren't included in the income average calculation. Would you like to reconsider that "distorted average" theory?
Point Two: Financial Freedom
Quixtar claims on its quixtarfacts.com site that it has paid out $1 billion in bonuses since its launch in September, 1999. That's roughly $200 million per year (dividing $1 billion by 5 years) and is a very impressive figure. However, let's take a closer look at this figure.
According to the U.S. Census, the average annual household income in the U.S. is $47,101. That's not a lot of money but a significant number of Americans are able to live comfortably on that amount. Now let's just say that the goal of a Quixtar IBO is to match the U.S. average of $47,101. How many IBOs will be able to earn that much from Quixtar before the $200 million is gone? Well, my math (and check it yourself) reveals that only 4,255 IBOs (in this hypothetical example) earned the U.S. average income. That number is smaller than the number of people at the motivational rally I went to in Forth Worth.
Now, increase that total to $75,000 per year and you're left with only 2,667 IBOs with "financial freedom." Or maybe I don't understand what it means to be "financially free?" All I know is that when I start really looking at Quixtar's own numbers, I'm left with more questions than answers.
Point Three: Comparing Averages
I'm not a big fan of averages. They're too easily manipulated. I'd prefer if Quixtar had given the median income for "active" IBOs but I play with the hand I'm dealt and so I'll compare some averages. Below you'll find a listing of average annual incomes for various professions and levels of education. Keep in mind that the figures below also include those who may be lazy or unenthusiastic.
Engineer (data from 1999) = $84,314
Farmer (data from 2002) = $1,700 (pdf)
Small Business (data from 2000) = $1.9 million
Physicians (data from 1998) = $200,000
College Graduates (data from 1999) = $45,400
Quixtar IBO (data from 2001) = $1,380 (pdf)"
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Originally posted by Silat
Is this the Quixtar you are talking about Storch? Sounds like a pyramid type enterprise to me.
"Quixtar Average Income
There's apparently some confusion about the Quixtar business opportunity and I'd like to make three points that will hopefully eliminate some of that confusion. Those promoting Quixtar claim that, when run properly, a Quixtar IBO can achieve "financial freedom" and do so in just a few years. Critics of Quixtar contend that such claims are bogus and that most IBOs end up losing money operating their Quixtar business. Who's right? Who's wrong? Does the truth reside somewhere in the middle? I'll list my points and let you decide.
Point One: Average Income
According to Quixtar's own "disclosure document" (pdf) the average monthly gross income for an "active" IBO is $115 (or $1,380 annually). Just a reminder, gross income means before expenses such as travel, lodging, training, motivational materials, etc. Quixtar even admits that "there may be significant business expenses, mostly discretionary, that may be greater in relation to income in the first years of operation." How many years? Quixtar doesn't specify. Could be two or twenty for all we know.
"But wait," you say. "Averages can be easily skewed by extremely high or low numbers. Many IBOs sign up and then sit on their bellybutton which inevitably brings down the average income."
Well, that's correct. Averages can be distorted by extremely high or low numbers but maybe that's why Quixtar only counted "ACTIVE" IBOs. In fact, Quixtar did not include one third of all its registered IBOs when determining average income. That statistic alone is incredible but let's put it in perspective. Let's say there are 300,000 registered IBOs. According to Quixtar, 100,000 of them are not "active" and weren't included in the income average calculation. Would you like to reconsider that "distorted average" theory?
Point Two: Financial Freedom
Quixtar claims on its quixtarfacts.com site that it has paid out $1 billion in bonuses since its launch in September, 1999. That's roughly $200 million per year (dividing $1 billion by 5 years) and is a very impressive figure. However, let's take a closer look at this figure.
According to the U.S. Census, the average annual household income in the U.S. is $47,101. That's not a lot of money but a significant number of Americans are able to live comfortably on that amount. Now let's just say that the goal of a Quixtar IBO is to match the U.S. average of $47,101. How many IBOs will be able to earn that much from Quixtar before the $200 million is gone? Well, my math (and check it yourself) reveals that only 4,255 IBOs (in this hypothetical example) earned the U.S. average income. That number is smaller than the number of people at the motivational rally I went to in Forth Worth.
Now, increase that total to $75,000 per year and you're left with only 2,667 IBOs with "financial freedom." Or maybe I don't understand what it means to be "financially free?" All I know is that when I start really looking at Quixtar's own numbers, I'm left with more questions than answers.
Point Three: Comparing Averages
I'm not a big fan of averages. They're too easily manipulated. I'd prefer if Quixtar had given the median income for "active" IBOs but I play with the hand I'm dealt and so I'll compare some averages. Below you'll find a listing of average annual incomes for various professions and levels of education. Keep in mind that the figures below also include those who may be lazy or unenthusiastic.
Engineer (data from 1999) = $84,314
Farmer (data from 2002) = $1,700 (pdf)
Small Business (data from 2000) = $1.9 million
Physicians (data from 1998) = $200,000
College Graduates (data from 1999) = $45,400
Quixtar IBO (data from 2001) = $1,380 (pdf)"
Well that is the Quixtar to which I refer and we are in the top earners with an international organization producing residual income for us. It is a very very tough business to make it in, let no one tell you otherwise. But if you are focused and disciplined and willing to put up with tons of rejection it can work for you. Our best year we earned a little over $300,000.00 US but we don't earn anywhere near that since Sept, 11, 2001. Still what we earn is enough to keep us in a very comfortable lifestyle while not having to slave away at a job. I work my welding shop out of principle. I couldn't be in a position where I was idle but if you run up my time logged into the AH game you can see that if I want to I can be a pasty skin. That comes from not needing to have to go to work to pay my bills.
If you are considering that business I'll share a few pointers.
I would recommend that you find a dynamic hard working sponsor that can show you photocopies of bonus checks that are at least $3000.00 per month. Anyone else is a bullchitter. You will spend much time with your sponsor as he or she teaches you how to develope your organization.
Be prepared to work your arse off for one year expecting zero financial results.
Forget your friends and family. build your business with FTBs (friends to be).
Don't sponsor broke people. broke people are that way for a reason. I'm not a liberal and I'm not a philantropist. I'm here to help those that are willing and able to help themselves. I personally only sponsored people who earned more money than I did. Doctors are great prospects. with medicine leaving less discreationary income you have a ready market of hard working, dedicated, focused and caring people who can also believe that it is possible to earn the money that is available through this type of business.
You must be winsome and a good listener.
You must be willing to put the other guy's needs before your own.
If you can help fifteen people attain an income level that they are comfortable with you will never need to balance your checkbook again.
the rest is easy the products are great, everyone uses them and the delivery system is flawless. believe it then you may achieve it.
Feel free to ask any questions.
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Where do I sign up!
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Originally posted by Pongo
Where do I sign up!
I forgot to mention I don't sponsor pinheads
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I've had female bosses that were very effective leaders, were respected and did their jobs well. I wanted to have sex with all of them. Preferably at the same time.
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Quixtar is Amway!
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Quixtar is Amway!
Now here's a specimen with a firm grasp of the obvious
It sure is, it's an offshoot from Amway. I had previuosly stated that.
Amway stands for the American Way so no doubt you'll have nothing other than marvelous things to say. don't mind me though, I'm laughing all the way to the bank.
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I have been fortunate enough to have avoided having a female boss my entire working career... I have worked with very few( maybe three) women in my life and consider that to also be fortunate.
I would like to retire early so it appears that my luck may hold.
lazs
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Originally posted by storch
Now here's a specimen with a firm grasp of the obvious
It sure is, it's an offshoot from Amway. I had previuosly stated that.
Amway stands for the American Way so no doubt you'll have nothing other than marvelous things to say. don't mind me though, I'm laughing all the way to the bank.
Sure you are, while thousands are losing their shirts. It's nothing but a juiced up pyramid.
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You guys that can't handle working with women must not do well socially with them either. I have found it way easy to manipulate women co-workers and bosses BECAUSE they are women.
There is a term for it:
Homo-Social
you simply can't deal with women, so you prefer the company of men. No sexual connotations.
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I've had female bosses. I will never work for a female again and will avoid working with them if at all possible. They are more capable, imho, of creating problems/scheming than any man I've ever worked with. Interacting with them as a matter of daily business is fine, but not as a long term situation. As a small business owner, I will close my doors before hiring a woman.
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I have found it way easy to manipulate women co-workers and bosses BECAUSE they are women.
I don't want to manipulate anyone.
I want to work w/ people who will speak their true mind and keep their word. Not all men do this, but the women I've worked w/ were either deceitful, incompetent, manipulative of the system as a woman, or some combination thereof... no thank you.
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Well, Bud, I hate to tell you, but leadership IS manipulating people. If you can manipulate them to do what you want
because they want to, then you are a great leader.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Sure you are, while thousands are losing their shirts. It's nothing but a juiced up pyramid.
you are so narrow minded that you could peer through a knot hole with both eyes simultaneously. You are the epitome of imbecillity.
How could you possibly make such a statement without knowing any of the facts or details?
We started our business in 1986
We sponsored willing adults. No firearms were involved.
Some remain and are making very good money. Some remain because they appreciate the simplicity of logging on to a website and making all the purchases necessary to run their domiciles. Some fell by the wayside. The ones that quit by the very nature of the definition lost nothing but $US 154.00 for a start up kit.
Nice troll. I'm still laughing all the way to the bank. When we die and are in Heaven our kids will inherit this cash making machine that we assembled in ten year's time. I haven't flung a ring since 1995!!!!! how was work today? look at the times for my many posts!!!!! I don't have a job!!!! I don't have a boss!!!! I'm unemployable!!!!! I don't have to suck up to anyone!!!!! I can be totally UNPC!!!!! My wife loves it when I pipe the girl in the office, its her!!!!!! She's next to me laughing at your silly self. Thanks for the comic relief. Don't worry Friday's coming.
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Originally posted by Lizking
Well, Bud, I hate to tell you, but leadership IS manipulating people. If you can manipulate them to do what you want
because they want to, then you are a great leader.
BZZZZZZZZ wrong answer. "A person convinced against their will is of the same opinion still". You may be in a position to impose your will on others due to your authority over them but that isn't true leadership.
In order for one to be a leader one must first have been a keen follower.
People will follow you if they respect you and trust in your abilities to accomplish the task at hand. It helps tremendously if they are aware that if they can't accomplish a certain task that you are quite willing and capable to step in and accomplish it yourself while doing it better.
The more successful you become the more important it is that you develope an esprit de corps so that the best and brightest will want to join the team.
The people in your organization must know that you truly and deeply care for them. You must be at their service as much as they are at yours.
Anything less and you are a petty despot.
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TY for picking that one up, Storch. I hope Lizking never supervises people. He may very well be doing so now, and be privately resented for his management style.
sorry Lizking, manipulating people is not leadership... at least not good leadership.
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I do, and have, and do it quite well. The key is, no one ever feels like they are being manipulated. I would venture that if you are not the one doing the manipulation, it is your employees who are manipulating YOU.
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Merriam's definition: to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage.
Like I said, no thanks.
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Maybe you are focusing too much on the latter 2 definitions instead of the former.
Leadership is the art of influencing of others to do what you want. The best, and truest from of influence is manipulation, and it involves nothing decitful, unethical, or dishonest.
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and truest from of influence is manipulation, and it involves nothing decitful, unethical, or dishonest.
Well maybe here lies our disagreement because to me manipulation means: unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage.
I don't lead that way. FWIW I own 2 small businesses and both are profitable so I must be doing something right, if not perfectly.
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S!, it is a hard thing to do. I think we are letting semantics get in the way, and there is no one way of managment, anyway. So, did you say you have women in leadership positions, I don't remember.
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The Federal Trade Commission.
Multilevel Marketing Plans
Produced in co-operation with the North American Securities Administrators Association
November 1996
Multilevel marketing plans, also known as "network" or "matrix" marketing, are a way of selling goods or services through distributors. These plans typically promise that if you sign up as a distributor, you will receive commissions -- for both your sales of the plan's goods or services and those of other people you recruit to join the distributors. Multilevel marketing plans usually promise to pay commissions through two or more levels of recruits, known as the distributor's "downline."
If a plan offers to pay commissions for recruiting new distributors, watch out! (1). Most states outlaw this practice, which is known as "pyramiding." State laws against pyramiding say that a multilevel marketing plan should only pay commissions for retail sales of goods or services, not for recruiting new distributors. (2)
Why is pyramiding prohibited? Because plans that pay commissions for recruiting new distributors inevitably collapse when no new distributors can be recruited. (1). And when a plan collapses, most people -- except perhaps those at the very top of the pyramid -- lose their money.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Hortlund that statement is ignorant on so many levels..
Hear hear.
culero
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Originally posted by midnight Target
So Amway is illegal? Go attend a meeting and see for yourself but If I see your name in my printouts I'll boot you.
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Originally posted by storch
So Amway is illegal? Go attend a meeting and see for yourself but If I see your name in my printouts I'll boot you.
Boot him for what? Didnt you just invite him? BTW why does your home business need meetings?
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Leadership is when people look to you for answers and you have them. Sex is irelevant.
It's mostly a question of style. In the last seven years I worked under 11 managers crazily enough. The best two, one was a woman and one was a man. Different styles both got the job done. The worst by far was a man.
Learning to fly, my best Instructors were women, no contest. Worst pilot I ever flew with was a woman so was the best pilot I ever flew with.
The problem I think sometimes with some women managers/leaders is that they were promoted because they were women. Seen it a couple of times. If often works but sometimes it's a mess.
At one stage I controlled about 20 people in my area. I usually preferred women because quite frankly they worked harder and did a better job. Mostly they didn't need supervising. Men were trouble. Except one who was ex army (Irish Guards). You know, the guys in tall hats guarding the Queen in Buckingham palace. He was superb, did an excellent job, obeyed orders.
You simply cannot generalise.
With me and my fiance, we go along with each other. She earns twice what I do, for now. I go along with most of what she says unless it important to me in some way. She usually defers to me then but not always. Then we discuss animatedly!!!
My attitude is that you cannot expect someone, anyone. man or woman to accept something that you personally would find unacceptable. If you wouldn't like it to be done to you then you have no right to do it to someone else.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Boot him for what? Didnt you just invite him? BTW why does your home business need meetings?
not to one of my meetings I didn't. Mine doesn't have home meetings any longer most of the open opportunity meetings are held in hotel conference rooms but I'm far removed from all that now, however we do receive printouts of our non qualifing downline organizations.
By the way what the illegal schemes are is a "Ponzi scheme". The very best example of a Ponzi scheme is the Social Security Administration. The Amway Sales and Marketing Plan is the industrys paradigm for legality and if a rival plan does not conform to the Amway model it is considered illegal.
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What do you do at these meetings?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
What do you do at these meetings?
find one and see for yourself.
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I meant what is your role at these meeetings.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I meant what is your role at these meeetings.
I haven't done one since 1995
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Ok, but you can still say what your role was. Or maybe describe what your wife does if she now runs the meetings.
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who asked for hortulands opinion again?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Ok, but you can still say what your role was. Or maybe describe what your wife does if she now runs the meetings.
We presented the opportunity by explaining the business model through visual aids and anecdotes.
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Hi. New here. Noticed that a post (http://www.webraw.com/quixtar/archives/2004/07/quixtar_average_income.php) on my blog had been quoted here so I thought I'd toss in a couple of comments.
Storch, you mention Bonus Checks. Those are virtually worthless. Ask for a copy of a Schedule C tax return. This shows a profit/loss and is a better indication of Net income. A copy of a check means nothing without showing what was spent to get that check.
Be prepared to work your arse off for one year expecting zero financial results.
By Quixtar's own admission (see my linked post) on the SA-4400, many can expect a loss in the first few years of operation, which is different than a zero gain in one year. In fact, there are many tax cases pointing out that many IBOs generally lose money year after year so that their business doesn't even qualify for tax write-offs.
If you can help fifteen people attain an income level that they are comfortable with you will never need to balance your checkbook again.
The truth of that statement is debatable. You wouldn't be making any generalized income claims would you? Did you get Ken McDonald's recent email reminding all IBOs of the rules? Actually, there is compelling evidence that even those at the Diamond level must work extremely hard AND supplement their Quixtar bonuse money with Motivational (aka Tool money) in order to come close to the lifestyle you describe.
By the way, what group are you in? If you've already revealed that then I apologize for missing it. Also, I should let you know that I'm forwarding a copy of your income comments to the Quixtar Rules Administration at qbcr.department@quixtar.com . There is no malice intended at all but I feel I should let you know exactly what I'm doing and I'm sure that if you're in compliance you have nothing to worry about.
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Are you a woman?
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Originally posted by QBlog
Hi. New here. Noticed that a post (http://www.webraw.com/quixtar/archives/2004/07/quixtar_average_income.php) on my blog had been quoted here so I thought I'd toss in a couple of comments.
Storch, you mention Bonus Checks. Those are virtually worthless. Ask for a copy of a Schedule C tax return. This shows a profit/loss and is a better indication of Net income. A copy of a check means nothing without showing what was spent to get that check.
By Quixtar's own admission (see my linked post) on the SA-4400, many can expect a loss in the first few years of operation, which is different than a zero gain in one year. In fact, there are many tax cases pointing out that many IBOs generally lose money year after year so that their business doesn't even qualify for tax write-offs.
The truth of that statement is debatable. You wouldn't be making any generalized income claims would you? Did you get Ken McDonald's recent email reminding all IBOs of the rules? Actually, there is compelling evidence that even those at the Diamond level must work extremely hard AND supplement their Quixtar bonuse money with Motivational (aka Tool money) in order to come close to the lifestyle you describe.
By the way, what group are you in? If you've already revealed that then I apologize for missing it. Also, I should let you know that I'm forwarding a copy of your income comments to the Quixtar Rules Administration at qbcr.department@quixtar.com . There is no malice intended at all but I feel I should let you know exactly what I'm doing and I'm sure that if you're in compliance you have nothing to worry about.
We were in the Yeager organization but have lost contact with most of our upline.
fire away we sell no motivational materials of any sort. in fact they created such a rift within the organization that they were the cause of us stepping back from active participation. Never did really see the value of the BSMs. It seems that people who were going to forge ahead did so inspite of the odds irrespective of challenges and without too much external stimuli. with regard to the debatability of that statement sure it's debatable. I would challenge you to sponsor 15 groups and aid them to attain the 25% bonus level then report those results on your site. We managed to attain an emeraldship but sadly that has dropped to one consistently qualifing direct distributorship and two legs that qualify silver. We are satisfied with that income presently and consider it very rewarding for a business that we have not actively worked in nine years. you sound like some of the people we actively avoided contact with. Please, do tell us about your experiences. I wait with bated breath for your next post.
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Originally posted by QBlog
Hi. New here. Noticed that a post (http://www.webraw.com/quixtar/archives/2004/07/quixtar_average_income.php) on my blog had been quoted here so I thought I'd toss in a couple of comments.
Thanks for coming by Qblog.
I used your text and apologise for not acknowledging where it came from.
But be prepared. Now you are going to be called a non believer or one of those that cant cut the AMWAY mustard:)
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I would challenge you to sponsor 15 groups and aid them to attain the 25% bonus level then report those results on your site.
I challenge you to produce a copy of your 1099 and your Schedule C for the past 10 years.
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Originally posted by Silat
Originally posted by QBlog
Hi. New here. Noticed that a post (http://www.webraw.com/quixtar/archives/2004/07/quixtar_average_income.php) on my blog had been quoted here so I thought I'd toss in a couple of comments.
Thanks for coming by Qblog.
I used your text and apologise for not acknowledging where it came from.
But be prepared. Now you are going to be called a non believer or one of those that cant cut the AMWAY mustard:)
Not to worry. I have skin thicker than an elephant's. I'm only interested in the facts and so far, the facts about Quixtar are unimpressive at best and horrifying at worst.
I've been researching, studying, examining and discussing this business for nearly two years now and have met with my fair share of negativity. The problem is that virtually NOBODY can cut the AmQuix Mustard. Don't believe me, look at their OWN STATISTICS!
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Isnt quixtar like scientology for red necks?
Lets see some real cross posting now!
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Originally posted by Pongo
Isnt quixtar like scientology for red necks?
Lets see some real cross posting now!
Grabbing the popcorn. This should be good. :)
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Originally posted by QBlog
Not to worry. I have skin thicker than an elephant's. I'm only interested in the facts and so far, the facts about Quixtar are unimpressive at best and horrifying at worst.
I've been researching, studying, examining and discussing this business for nearly two years now and have met with my fair share of negativity. The problem is that virtually NOBODY can cut the AmQuix Mustard. Don't believe me, look at their OWN STATISTICS!
right!!!
I'm going to post my tax returns to convince you. I don't care what you do or don't believe.
I'm not interested in sponsoring anyone at this time and am quite satisfied with our current very stable organization.
Clearly you can see that in the posts prior to yours. At no time did I offer to extend help to others, I only offered my perspective.
You have called me a liar.
If your skin is thick then mine is armor.
Any of the people who read my posts whether they like or dislike me will attest to that.
Ask Amway to tell you who I am. You have all the information you need to give me a phone call.
I really love the "researcher and study" bunch. If you had taken a fraction of those two research years and invested them in the lives of other people that you had soberly and with sincere intent set about to help, and actually helped them solve a problem, provided they were willing to work perhaps you would have seen more positive results.
perhaps you are a pedantic type of person and no one wants to be around you.
Some folks have "it" and some don't. "it" is unlearnable "it" is innate and not fairly or evenly distributed. seemingly those that have "it" are either accepted because of "it" by some who see "it" and admire "it" and successfully ride the surge "it" inevitably draws with "it". Others are envious of "it" and seek to destroy "it" by whatever means possible.
You seem to be a very well organized fellow with considerable organizational skill. perhaps you could be very successful in certain types of organizations.
Please forgive me for I do not wish to offend though I know one could easily be offended by my previous words. I'm very direct, I speak frankly, I don't hide my agenda and I don't play games when conducting business. This manner has earned me great loyalty as well as great enmity. I'm sure you can see that.
You made a threat, carry through with it. when you have your results, post them here for all to see.
I'm sorry that Amway was unsuccessful for you. Be comforted in the knowledge that very few attain the level of direct distributor.
Any attempt to accomplish worthwhile things is somehow immediately beset by challenges. Success is armorplated in any endeavor.
I will salute your effort and I will encourage you to keep trying, but in another venue.
For now I believe I'll be done responding to your posts. I don't see the value of continuing this argument. we can however argue about other topics.
After all I do have all day.
Regards
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Sure you are, while thousands are losing their shirts. It's nothing but a juiced up pyramid.
No kidding. It's an open pyramid where those that enter into it late just won't make the money. Just a con game.
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Originally posted by SaburoS
No kidding. It's an open pyramid where those that enter into it late just won't make the money. Just a con game.
Let's see. Amway started in 1959. we started in 1986. does that mean that I've lost money!!!!! oh my!!!!! Why not just say it's not for me thanks. No one wants someone who does want to succeed. I chase people like you away.
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Originally posted by storch
right!!!
I'm going to post my tax returns to convince you. I don't care what you do or don't believe.
Classic response. You offer me a challenge but refuse to back up your own claims of success. I have absolutely nothing to gain or lose if anyone likes or hates Quixtar/Amway. I just look at the facts. You, however, have made claims about the income potential of the business and have a specific interest in the health of that business.
I did not ask for your personal returns, I asked for your BUSINESS info. Black your your name if you want. I don't care. I just want you to prove that Quixtar/Amway is providing the level of PROFIT that you claim. If it is, then a Schedule C and 1099 will clearly demonstrate this. If not then why make such claims?
Originally posted by storch
You have called me a liar.
Where did I call you a liar? I'm just asking for proof. If I claim that I am the president of GE wouldn't a request for proof be reasonable? If you fabricate accusations from simple questions and information requests then you may not be in such a great position to be making the income claims you're making.
Originally posted by storch
You have called me a liar. I really love the "researcher and study" bunch. If you had taken a fraction of those two research years and invested them in the lives of other people that you had soberly and with sincere intent set about to help, and actually helped them solve a problem, provided they were willing to work perhaps you would have seen more positive results.
See, now you're making assumptions about me. We all know what assuming does don't we? ;)
Originally posted by storch
You made a threat, carry through with it. when you have your results, post them here for all to see.
If saying that I'm reporting your income claims to Quixtar is a threat, then yes, I did. However, I beg to differ. I've reported others for rule violations in the past and I'll continue to do so in the future. I felt it was incumbent upon me to let you know what I was doing. I don't see that as a threat in the least. I see it as informing. If you feel your income claims fall squarely within Quixtar's rules then there's nothing to worry about.
I'm sorry to hear you won't post about Quixtar any more. I wish you the best in your business.
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Originally posted by storch
Let's see. Amway started in 1959. we started in 1986. does that mean that I've lost money!!!!! oh my!!!!! Why not just say it's not for me thanks. No one wants someone who does want to succeed. I chase people like you away.
How much have you made? You claim you show a profit, can you prove it? Shedule C and 1099 please.
Also, just curious but did you sign the BSMAA? And you receive absolutely NO TOOL MONEY? Do you know Walter Bass?
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Originally posted by storch
Let's see. Amway started in 1959. we started in 1986. does that mean that I've lost money!!!!! oh my!!!!! Why not just say it's not for me thanks. No one wants someone who does want to succeed. I chase people like you away.
You mean people that aren't STUPID and GULLIBLE to fall for such a plan?
How many people does a 'recruiter'/sponsor/whatever tell a potential client that he/she has to recruit in order to make money and actually stop 'recruiting'?
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IIRC, two individuals tried to recruit me into the system. One was new and the other was his sponsor. When they told me all I had to do for "financial freedom' was to recruit 6, they each would only need to recruit 4, each of those 4 would only need to recruit 2.
Is it the same basic speech? The numbers still similar?
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6x6x6x6x6x6x6x6x6x6x6x6x6!!!
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time to get the lawn chair and a beer/soda and maybe and sammich everything this is going to get good.
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Originally posted by Athena3
Sorry this got so long, but sometimes I think it's valuable for you all to realize that there are some women around here :)
Great post, Athena! :) I too have been reading this thread, and so far sitting on my hands. What a load of sexist crap! :rolleyes: I can't believe there are still people around who have such old-fashioned ideas about women and their role in life.
I've had my turn at 'leadership' and although I may not have been as great a leader as others before me (or since! :)) I did the job to the best of my ability and held on to it for the full term, supported by a very strong team and excellent XO. In the end, though, a leader is only as good as the team they lead; I was lucky in having a great team and the mutual respect of each and every member. My hair's a lot greyer now, but it was a great experience and I'm glad I was given the opportunity. ;)
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Originally posted by Flossy
Great post, Athena! :) I too have been reading this thread, and so far sitting on my hands.
Flossy, that's because you are too dern nice! :)
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Originally posted by Flossy
Great post, Athena! :) I too have been reading this thread, and so far sitting on my hands. What a load of sexist crap! :rolleyes: I can't believe there are still people around who have such old-fashioned ideas about women and their role in life.
Flo my dear friend. You know that I in no way condone or believe any of the sexist BS that has been spouted by the some of the poor examples of men in this thread. I passed some of the comments on to my to daughters and they are disgusted but not surprised that men like these still exist in this country.
***
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Originally posted by Flossy
What a load of sexist crap! :rolleyes: I can't believe there are still people around who have such old-fashioned ideas about women and their role in life.
The conservatives often are like that.
They resist change because they are trully scared little girls. ;)
Their is racism still so why not sexism.
Maybe it's time for a final solution...
...You know send them all to an island together. After a while they will be bored without any women around and they will beg to come back. They should be less sexist then, hopefully. :D
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Originally posted by Silat
Flo my dear friend. You know that I in no way condone or believe any of the sexist BS that has been spouted by the some of the poor examples of men in this thread. I passed some of the comments on to my to daughters and they are disgusted but not surprised that men like these still exist in this country.
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I know, Silat..... ;) *****
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Originally posted by SaburoS
You mean people that aren't STUPID and GULLIBLE to fall for such a plan?
How many people does a 'recruiter'/sponsor/whatever tell a potential client that he/she has to recruit in order to make money and actually stop 'recruiting'?
Like I said I really didn't have time for combatative people. you're just much too smart for me. I only want mindless morons everyone loves morons businesses only succeed when morons are involved. smart people are highly overrated. you should go and hang out with that other smart person Qblob. How was work today?? Smart guy!!!
Anyway I'm done responding to any further questions about Amway. The whole tangent started responding to that sophmoric boy grunherz which I dislike tremendously anyway. I'll repeat it again. I'm not sponsoring anyone new. I have no interest in involving myself with the huge amount of work and expense it takes to help someone develope an organization. I certainly wouldn't even spend 5 minutes of my time with someone like saburo, pongo, silat, Grunfarz or Qblob so continue the "discussion" on your own.
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Went to an Amway meeting back in the 80's. Even then they were using a different name to juice up the pyramid. Something like "Life Blasters" or "Goal Tenders" or "Scum-sucking lying SOB's"... I forget.
I was suckered into the meeting by my ex-wife's freaking brother! "Come to my house I got something to show you."
So I'm sitting there patiently listening until he says.. "Often people with educations are the worst at this. They think too much." That's when I walked out.
From the 60 Minutes Amway Story of 1982-
WALLACE:
[voice over] His wife Birdie idolizes him. I read back to her something that she had said about her husband. [Wallace quotes her] "He's the greatest person I've ever known. When I look at him", you said "I see JESUS. I want you to listen to him. I know that you'll see Jesus too."
[on-camera, to Birdie] Do you really feel that way about your husband?
BIRDIE YAGER:
Uh, huh.
WALLACE:
When you see him, you see. . .
BIRDIE:
I see what Jesus stood for. What he beLIEVED in. His giving and loving spirit.
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"You guys that can't handle working with women must not do well socially with them either. I have found it way easy to manipulate women co-workers and bosses BECAUSE they are women.
There is a term for it:
Homo-Social
you simply can't deal with women, so you prefer the company of men. No sexual connotations."
I believe that liz has a pretty good grasp on it. While I have allways been considered a good leader of men... I have allways failed misserably with women employees. I try to treat them the same way as I do the men and it creates problems.
I will admit that I have no interest in learning the nuances of leading or being led by women.
There is also some truth to the fact that I do not "deal with women" well on a social level... Women are attracted to my honesty but then they are repeled by ..... my honesty.
More than one woman has said that I am the convertable of men. Every woman should have one for a summer but that they aren't very practical for the long run. This is probly a fair assesment. I love women but have not interest in understanding or manipulating them.... no real need either.
lazs
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Originally posted by Flossy
Great post, Athena! :)
Thanks Flossy, I appreciate it! :)
I have to sit here and wonder from what planet some of you are getting the women you work with! I may not be very old, but i've had 8 jobs, all working primarily with women and only on one job did they ever 'group off' against me and never was stuff not done. And I don't think that one time should count since I was 20, new at the job and they were in their 40's and had been doing the job for 15 years. Of course they knew the job better, and it only got personal once (obviously because I was cute and 20 and one of the 40-year-olds was single and jealous). And I've been a leader once as well doing a 6 day a week, 14 hour a day job for a summer and I handled myself pretty well, especially considering the majority of my staff were late high school/early college girls. Not to introduce a new element to this, but how many of these cases were women holding degrees of masters and above? My theory is the more educated you are as a female, the less likely you are to do that kind of stuff. There are, of course, exceptions both ways. I remember high school being a lot like the situation you described, but college being less so (we didn't have the greek culture on our campus) and most adult women I know, especially educated and/or religious would never act like that. Makes me wonder a heck of a lot. But I'll test your theory, I have a committee meeting of Air Force wives on thursday. We'll see what happens.
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Storch dislikes me tremendously!
And to think up to this moment I wasnt having such a great day... :)
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Originally posted by storch
I certainly wouldn't even spend 5 minutes of my time with someone like saburo, pongo, silat, Grunfarz or Qblob so continue the "discussion" on your own.
Wow that is some loving christian attitude you have there. I didnt say anything to warrant that response from you . But I guess its your loss.
IM 53 been retired for 10 years. All without Amway.
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Women that are great leaders also tend to have the capability to pee pee in the high weeds without discomfort.
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"What a load of sexist crap! I can't believe there are still people around who have such old-fashioned ideas about women and their role in life."
Actually, when I got out of college I was gung ho on all sorts of things like racial and sexual equality. I worked w/ hired people regardless of creed or gender. My professional experience in working w/ women and certain races has led me to my current attitude. Call my ideas old fashioned if you like, but they were changed to what they are by the behavior of women. Blame the women I've met in life, if you really need to point a finger.
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Originally posted by storch
Like I said I really didn't have time for combatative people. you're just much too smart for me. I only want mindless morons everyone loves morons businesses only succeed when morons are involved. smart people are highly overrated. you should go and hang out with that other smart person Qblob. How was work today?? Smart guy!!!
Anyway I'm done responding to any further questions about Amway. The whole tangent started responding to that sophmoric boy grunherz which I dislike tremendously anyway. I'll repeat it again. I'm not sponsoring anyone new. I have no interest in involving myself with the huge amount of work and expense it takes to help someone develope an organization. I certainly wouldn't even spend 5 minutes of my time with someone like saburo, pongo, silat, Grunfarz or Qblob so continue the "discussion" on your own.
Doesn't surprise me that you'd quit this discussion when some facts are asked of it. You know it's a basically dishonest organization. It's an open pyramid with no ending/closure. Eventually you run out of people that 'fall' for the con.
BTW, you or any 'recruiter' will gladly take the start-up money from anyone as that's the main goal. No one gives up money just to fail.
There are enough gullible people out there that some organizations will apparently 'suceed', trouble is that eventually they decline and fail. Just give it time.
Keep deluding yourself.
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Plus it's hilarious that this upstanding christian he-man manly man "make the woman submit to her place" type claims he was able to attain "financial freedom" from the profits on an unethical scam run by his wife...
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Originally posted by storch
I certainly wouldn't even spend 5 minutes of my time with someone like saburo, pongo, silat, Grunfarz or Qblob so continue the "discussion" on your own.
Now I'm pissed! I go to all that trouble and I don't even get an honorable mention!
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Plus it's hilarious that this upstanding christian he-man manly man "make the woman submit to her place" type claims he was able to attain "financial freedom" from the profits on an unethical scam run by his wife...
I generally frown on personal attacks but this is worth a chuckle. :aok
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heh (http://www.rickross.com/groups/amway.html)
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not nice funky. links that put up red pages of blocked death on peoples screens are not nice.